Not sure if I still identify as non binary?

[mischief_brew]

London Pride is this weekend but decided not to go; again. It seems so gay central which puts me off. The asexual bloc sounds cool though. I'm going to Trans Pride in Brighton though for the whole weekend; as well as taking part as a volunteer; which I'm looking forward too . I'm also getting a trans pride tattoo in Brighton a few days before; had hoped to get it during pride but the tattoo artist is on holiday then

I used to be the same way about going to social groups. Therapy for social anxiety helped a lot; which taught me coping mechanisms as well as the fact I'd dislike the feeling of regret going a lot more than the feeling of becoming anxious going.

Annoyingly I had a nb group social in London that I couldn't go to just because I didn't feel in the mood to socialise and can't go to the next meet up due to work . Life just gets in the way sometimes.

Sorry for going on a tangent a bit.

Well done on starting the diary

Oh, I hope you have fun in Brighton. Sounds like fun! Also, yay for pride tattoos

I'd like to get some better therapy for my anxiety but they're only offering me DBT at the moment. It's frustrating.

One thing I was meaning to ask is if you ever have experienced depersonalisation/derealisation because of dysphoria? It's a symptom I've always put down to general anxiety stuff but now I'm not sure if it's related. I feel like I have no sense of self right now and I can't work out why...I feel too disconnected from my myself to even know what I feel about anything anymore. It feels like a protective mechanism in a way...

[OblivionLight]

Just want to say that I kind of completely relate to OP. My dysphoria gradually got worse and worse and eventually a very good friend of mine bought me a binder for my birthday last month, which has REALLY been providing a lot of comfort. I'd already been having doubts for a while longer though, and I think much longer than I realised, but I think I sort of pushed it to the back of my mind because I'm still in the closet and I'm also very anxious and scared to be truly out.

Generally though, on really bad dysphoric days, I find that telling myself I'm a guy actually really helps, but from day-to-day I'm just not too sure if I'm fully binary. I've been thinking about IDing as demiguy or transmasculine, but again, I'm mostly just confused and trying to figure everything out. I do like CERTAIN aspects of femininity, but only to a degree and only occasionally strongly, if that makes sense at all.

I too struggle with having to present female, and I strongly dislike being referred to as female etc, I hate hearing my birthname more than anything (and thankfully friends use a more neutral nickname and have for years), and I have been thinking about talking to someone and explore possible transition options, but likewise, I'm not sure if it's what I'm looking for or if it has any true purpose.

I also honestly believe that this is mostly due to not truly identifying as either but being happier NOT being seen as what I was born as - in which case some form of light transitioning might be preferable for me.

Anyway, I hope you (and anyone else struggling with this) figure it out and find more comfort. I'm hoping the same for myself

[LindseyP]

I used to be the same way about going to social groups. Therapy for social anxiety helped a lot; which taught me coping mechanisms as well as the fact I'd dislike the feeling of regret going a lot more than the feeling of becoming anxious going.

Annoyingly I had a nb group social in London that I couldn't go to just because I didn't feel in the mood to socialise and can't go to the next meet up due to work . Life just gets in the way sometimes.

I wish I had found this place last year.  I was on the road for a spurt last Summer between our client and training on my company's system.  I was missing all my groups I usually go to at home.  I was in London for two weeks during this period and there was this point where I just really missed talking with people in my community.  The best I could find was one LGBT bar that was really just a gay bar and had a drag performer that night.  The experience felt pretty empty.  I'd have loved to hook up with a NB or Trans support group. 

[Elis]

Oh, I hope you have fun in Brighton. Sounds like fun! Also, yay for pride tattoos

I'd like to get some better therapy for my anxiety but they're only offering me DBT at the moment. It's frustrating.

One thing I was meaning to ask is if you ever have experienced depersonalisation/derealisation because of dysphoria? It's a symptom I've always put down to general anxiety stuff but now I'm not sure if it's related. I feel like I have no sense of self right now and I can't work out why...I feel too disconnected from my myself to even know what I feel about anything anymore. It feels like a protective mechanism in a way...

Sorry for the late reply .  My feelings of depersonalisation were definitely a lot worse pre T. Now almost 2 years in I'm starting to feel like my body is actually mine and I'm connected to it. And starting to sort if care to look after it. Before my body was female and it didn't feel like mine. It felt alien to me in a way; which got worse with each monthly shark week. I felt like I was floating through life rather than actually part of it.

I still have random bouts of depression now and again which triggers me to feel depersonalisation/derealisation.  But it's not a constant non stop feeling anymore. Which is a huge relief.

[damnedheart]

wow its really easy to forget there are people who have the same identity issues as me. most of the time i feel like im the only one who has these feelings. i dont have much advice for you bc im in the same spot but i got emotional reading this bc i actually found someone like me and its incredible

[mischief_brew]

Sorry I let this post go a bit... Thanks for the replies everyone.

Damnedheart - I'm sorry it feels like you're on your own with this. I'm feeling pretty isolated with it all to be honest, but I know there are groups to reach out to if I can get up the confidence, it's just hard. I hope you can find people to support you and make you feel less alone... I find coming here somewhat of a sanctuary at the moment, even if I don't post much.

Elis - I'm glad your dyphoria has eased a bit with T. I'm still on the fence about making any definite decisions for now, but I have plenty of time to think whilst waiting to be referred to the Gender Clinic in London. I don't think my depression will ever truly go away but this stuff is definitely feeding it right now

LindseyP - There seems to be quite a lack of trans/non binary groups or venues in comparison to regular gay clubs and nights. I hope that it's going to improve in the future seeing as a lot more people are coming out as non binary now, or at least it seems so...

Oblivion Light - I hope you manage to figure things out for yourself too. I'm trying to be patient with myself because I don't think pressuring myself to make a decision one way or another is helping. I'm hoping things will get clearer eventually! Best of luck to you

[OU812]

The key here seems to be expression vs identity. They're not the same. You can have any identity you like and changing your expression won't interfere. But it's good to be clear about your identity.

I run into this a lot, because the LGBT groups at colleges I work with have in the span of 10 years essentially gone from LGB meetups to about 80-90% non-binary people, some of whom are to me appallingly anarchistic in their approach (ex. "gender doesn't exist") and frankly toxic about pronoun policing etc.

Expression is free. There's no need for a total revision of your identity, pronouns, and all that if you just prefer some modes of expression over others. Take a look at Tilda Swinton, Roan Louch, Ellen DeGeneres, Grace Jones, or Saskia DeBrauw. They all really blur the gender line at times but still don't espouse a trans or non-binary identity. People are more or less used to and accepting of this.

The way I see it is, if you would seem gender-normative to people like this, how well do your expressions really reflect your innate identity? Is the situation warranting a new label, or is a non-binary identity more a philosophical statement on existence vs. essence?

The thing is, how one is seen by society cannot be demanded. If that's desired, ostensibly to match a deeply-held sense of identity, then taking the non-binary route sounds to me like a long, hard battle that you have to really weigh the pros and cons of taking on. There are a lot of 20th and 21st century trans-folk who fought very hard, using medical research and mental health studies conducted at the highest levels of academia, to justify their need for the freedom to fully transition and be legally accepted for who they are, and in most places that battle is still red-hot - and that's just within the binary!

A huge part in all of this is that on one hand you have our society's battle for the evolution of gender roles past sexist social frameworks, and on the other you have those taking the Jacques Derrida approach. If it's a matter of really disliking birth name, secondary sex characteristics, and that sort of thing, that sounds like a good enough reason to look at transition options, especially when for men the next wave of alpha-male is more like 'sweet, sophisticated gentleman'. But I'm biased 

[LindseyP]

The key here seems to be expression vs identity. They're not the same. You can have any identity you like and changing your expression won't interfere. But it's good to be clear about your identity.

I run into this a lot, because the LGBT groups at colleges I work with have in the span of 10 years essentially gone from LGB meetups to about 80-90% non-binary people, some of whom are to me appallingly anarchistic in their approach (ex. "gender doesn't exist") and frankly toxic about pronoun policing etc.

Expression is free. There's no need for a total revision of your identity, pronouns, and all that if you just prefer some modes of expression over others. Take a look at Tilda Swinton, Roan Louch, Ellen DeGeneres, Grace Jones, or Saskia DeBrauw. They all really blur the gender line at times but still don't espouse a trans or non-binary identity. People are more or less used to and accepting of this.

The way I see it is, if you would seem gender-normative to people like this, how well do your expressions really reflect your innate identity? Is the situation warranting a new label, or is a non-binary identity more a philosophical statement on existence vs. essence?

The thing is, how one is seen by society cannot be demanded. If that's desired, ostensibly to match a deeply-held sense of identity, then taking the non-binary route sounds to me like a long, hard battle that you have to really weigh the pros and cons of taking on. There are a lot of 20th and 21st century trans-folk who fought very hard, using medical research and mental health studies conducted at the highest levels of academia, to justify their need for the freedom to fully transition and be legally accepted for who they are, and in most places that battle is still red-hot - and that's just within the binary!

A huge part in all of this is that on one hand you have our society's battle for the evolution of gender roles past sexist social frameworks, and on the other you have those taking the Jacques Derrida approach. If it's a matter of really disliking birth name, secondary sex characteristics, and that sort of thing, that sounds like a good enough reason to look at transition options, especially when for men the next wave of alpha-male is more like 'sweet, sophisticated gentleman'. But I'm biased 

I am going to try to respond to this as carefully as I can.  I get the spirit of where you are coming from, but there are some items in here that are highly problematic for someone who sounds like they are in a position to provide meaningful support for Non-Binary youth.  You come across like you are questioning the value of how they view their identities.  I am not sure how you can hold these views and function as effectively as you otherwise could.  People have a way of picking up on these things and creating space where it exists. 

Gender Identity is how people feel.  When you say " how well do your expressions really reflect your innate identity?", you seem to tie the "honesty" of how they say they identify to how they choose to express it.  As you say, Gender Identity and Gender Expression are two different things.  People get to choose how they want to express their identity.  That is somewhat of a choice.  Gender Identity, however, is not.  There is zero relationship between GI and GE. 

A Non-Binary person has no responsibility or implied requirement to express in a particular manner.  Does it make it harder for people that have been conditioned over a lifetime to accept the false premise that gender is binary?  Heck yes.  Should people expect Non-Binary people to act more predictably binary because it is more convenient to the way they have been raised to see the world?  Heck no. 

There is an awful lot of information out there on Gender Identity in general, and Non-Binary identities in specific.  I have a hard time buying into it, but I know there are even a number of people that identify as Non-Binary and don't identify as Trans.  Just because I don't "get it", it doesn't invalidate the identity.

I'm an admin in a Non-Binary support group on Facebook.  Someone posted the article below the other day and has been well received.  I have posted the link below.   It may give you a different perspective on Non-Binary identities.  There is a really good 30 minute program that pops up with it if you have time to watch.

I'm also 50+.  These are not "Tumbler Genders" as I have seen some disparage (not on these Susan's Place pages).  These are real people trying to figure out how to accept their own identities and find their place in the world.  And a lot of times it comes down to imposed societal gender norms, and not these kids.  The only difference between them and me is that they are much better setting aside societal norms as they navigate the world.  I'm a little too indoctrinated to the gender binary and have a more difficult time understanding and describing me because of it. 

If people had taken your comment "how one is seen by society cannot be demanded" to heart, we'd still be waiting for the Civil Rights movement to start.  I don't say this to cast any shade your way, just to tie it into something people have an easier time picturing. 

My apologies in advance if I have taken anything you have said out of context or misinterpreted your words.  As you are working with a lot of younger folk, I would hope that you would take some time to reexamine some of your premises on the subject.  If you have any specific situations you are encountering, I am happy to talk more offline as well.

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/non-binary-transgender-you-havent-heard-of/