Your relationship with your breasts

[Sarah]

Boobs rock.
I love my boobs. ^_^
-Sarah

[Berliegh]

Is there anything other than surgery to get boobs? I've found that even after many years on hormones I still haven't got anough to fill a B cup...

[Sarah]

Is there anything other than surgery to get boobs? I've found that even after many years on hormones I still haven't got anough to fill a B cup...

Yes, vaccum exercising.
Go to: www.extremerestraints.com (a respectable S&M site) they have the acrillic tubes for stretching them out.
With hormones gets dramatic results.
Also, I find phyto-estrogen works better for me.
More expensive (by far) and takes longer, but better results.

Also, consider adding Fenugreek to your diet and supplements.
Fenugreek has been hsed for thousands of years to increase breast size.
It was used by harem girls in the middle east particularly.
I take it with the my other stuff, and so far my methods have had pretty noticable results even in a short time.

[Keira]

No. those vacuum things are harmfull, besides creating mega hickey's on your breasts!!! And have no demonstrable long term effects.
If you really want big nipples (this has been demonstrated), you can you breast pumps used
for getting milks. They don't pull too much and you have to use them often, but your nipples will be bigger after a while. 

[Sarah]

No. those vacuum things are harmfull, besides creating mega hickey's on your breasts!!! And have no demonstrable long term effects.
If you really want big nipples (this has been demonstrated), you can you breast pumps used
for getting milks. They don't pull too much and you have to use them often, but your nipples will be bigger after a while. 

Kiera,
you don't like much of anything that is alternative do you?
Do you have any Data to back up your claims or are you just spreading FUD?
Really.
I'm as interested in my safety as the next person, but you havn't quoted a single example of this or Phyto-estrogen that shows that it is dangerous.

If you have evidence, please present it.
-Sarah

[Keira]

Please Sarah, go get the evidence yourself.
I don't keep a research library on file but have read very very extensively
and been member of DIY hormone group on Yahoo for years where
most people started with phyto-estrogens
and said they were useless for the money spent
I too took some, in good quantity for 3 months before ordering the real thing.
The testimonials of people who tried both in there are multiple.

In the Yahoo DIY group your
you can get some of those sources by searching through the archive.
And the testimonials I talked about too.

BTW,
I've got a job, and 2 grad courses.
Its a miracle I even post here.
If you can find evidence that goes against my post it here
and I'll deconstruct it scientifically as best I can.

BTW, Its Not FUD. I've done plenty of alternative, including phyto's.
Its not like your the first TS I meet, I've been involved in this circus for 15 years...
Breast pumps get your there without the risk. If you prefer breaking capilaries,
well, its your breasts.

[Sarah]

Please Sarah, go get the evidence yourself.
I don't keep a research library on file but have read very very extensively
and been member of DIY hormone group on Yahoo for years where
most people started with phyto-estrogens
and said they were useless for the money spent
I too took some, in good quantity for 3 months before ordering the real thing.
The testimonials of people who tried both in there are multiple.

that you dont' think they are woth the money does not make them "dangerous" as you have claimed.
That is a serious accusation. I'm all ears if you can speak of one case where someone said they had adverse side effects.
but all you are doing is spreading FUD as far as I can tell. It's one thing to say " I think they are expensive, and not as effective for the money in my experience" it is quite another to call them "dangerous"

In the Yahoo DIY group your
you can get some of those sources by searching through the archive.
And the testimonials I talked about too.

what testimonials?

If you can find evidence that goes against my post it here
and I'll deconstruct it scientifically as best I can.

sure. I have taken extremely large doses of Phyto-Estrogen with no adverse side effect.
There was an immediately noticable effect on my bust size (within less than four hours)
They are more expensive, they do require larger doses.
That does not make them dangerous.
Do you have hard evidence of them being dangerous?

Breast pumps get your there without the risk. If you prefer breaking capilaries,
well, its your breasts.

Stretching anything should be done slowly, and with care.
If you are stupid, and try to force your boobs beyond the pain threshold and keep going.
Then yes, it is dangerous.
I practice the splits regularly, would I just force myself to do them without regular practice and gently going?
No. That would be stupid, I would injure myself.
A mature, responsible adult, with no health problems should be able to excercise their breasts this way within reason.
I found fairly good lasting results myself.

I am not arguing about their effectiveness.

I have heard plenty of mixed results for that. I have my own experience.

This is about whether they are dangerous.

With phyto-estrogen the only arguement towards that you have made is that they are un-regulated.

That is not true. Herbal supplements fall within FDA regulation.

Supplements that are found to be dangerous are pulled from the market.

They also have the milligrams and ingedients listed on the bottle.

Some brands even garuntee the dosage levels to be within a certain range.

But your arguement is aginst all supplements by the nature of your arguement.

Could the dosages of each capsule be off by a few thousandths of a milligram due to natural plant varriances? Sure.

Does that make them dangerous?

You seem to say so. But there are millions of people who buy herbal supplements and find them safe and effective that swear otherwise.

If you don't like herbals, you don't like herbals. but that does not make them dangerous.
-Sarah

[Keira]

Many OTC things taken in quantity ARE dangerous.

Try taking to many tylenol capsule and see if your liver survives...
Phyto's taken in quantities to be slightly effective ARE dangerous
because of the by-products that accompany the main ingredients in those
"natural" ingredients. To get an effective response you have to take much
more than what people would normally take of those products.

The FDA doesn't regulate because you do have to take much of the product
for awhile to get adverse effects. Just like you would for many OTC products,
drink cough sirup for awhile and you won't be so good... That's the type of
quantity compared to normal dosage that's needed to get a real response
out of phyto's.

With a breast pump, I can put it on both breasts, but the motor on, and go
back to reading or whatever with not a worry in the world (and the good ones
have different cycles, strenght, speed, etc).

Testimonials are stories from people who've tried phyto, sometimes for quite some time,
and also estrogens. You can guess which one was more effective.

[Sarah]

Phyto's taken in quantities to be slightly effective ARE dangerous
because of the by-products that accompany the main ingredients in those
"natural" ingredients.

Such as...?
*looks at bottle of phyto-estrogen*...
you know, I  take powdered plants, blended together, in capsule form. they use vegitatian capsules.
the capsule material is the only thing I can find that is not a "natural" ingreedient.
all the ingredients are listed on the bottle. I don't see any chemicals.
Wouldn't that depend on the brand then?
maybe some brands suck.

To get an effective response you have to take much
more than what people would normally take of those products.

well, yes. but what that means is that the ammount of phyto-estrogen that naturally occurs in the plants is lower than what it would be if it were chemicaly extracted, modified and put into capsule form the way prescription estrogen is.
I can take one asprin, or three glasses ( or even one if it is strong) of willow bark tea.
Does that make the willow bark tea dangerous that I have to consume by volume like 5000 percent more(liquid tea compared to one pill)?
It's all relative. I would still be taking the same ammount and actually would have more control over the dosage as it wouldn't be as concentrated.

Testimonials are stories from people who've tried phyto, sometimes for quite some time,
and also estrogens. You can guess which one was more effective.

The effectiveness isnt' the issue here.
It's whether it is dangerous or not.
you keep quoting the effectiveness like it matters.
It doesn't.
If I am willing to pay more and take more for a natural product, and so are others, that doesn't make it dangerous.
That you are not and others think it is too expensive a route does not mean that they aren't effective if you are willing to spend the money.
I am.

But it gets back to danger.
People who use herbal supplements are aware that they will be spending more for less result-per-pill than one tylenol.
That has nothing to do with whether they are safe.
Are you telling me that the vegitarian capsule material used to enclose the powdered herbs is toxic???
Because that is the only synthetic material in the ones I take.

-Sarah

[Keira]

You do realize that every, even natural things, are CHEMICALS,
if you don't understand this well its pointless to go on.
For example, Black Cohosh is composed of hundreds of chemicals,
some with phyto activity, others with other type of bio-activity.
Why don't you do your research, which you obviously have not done
and come back to me. BTW, I've got at least 7 courses in chemistry,
3 in organic chemistry under my belt before I switched to physics, then
computer engineerings. I've spent a lot of time in university... and worked
in scientific areas.

Initially,  I also hoped that phyto's would work, but I wasn't
willing, and didn't have the money needed to get a minimal proper effect,
so I went DIY on the hormones after a long research on that too.
 
Go in the DIY Yahoo group and do a search there, or ask questions
if you don't mind getting answers you don't like.
There are thousands of
members ordering hormones on the net and they can't all be crazy...
At least 50% of them started using phyto's so they've got the
side by side experience which SHOULD matter to you.

Effectiveness IS important because if you take low (normal)
doses, it will be ineffective and there will be no danger.
You get my drift here, normal OTC dose = No danger and
no effectiveness.

Who wants to spend money on something ineffective.

[Wing Walker]

You do realize that every, even natural things, are CHEMICALS,
if you don't understand this well its pointless to go on.
For example, Black Cohosh is composed of hundreds of chemicals,
some with phyto activity, others with other type of bio-activity.
Why don't you do your research, which you obviously have not done
and come back to me. BTW, I've got at least 7 courses in chemistry,
3 in organic chemistry under my belt before I switched to physics, then
computer engineerings. I've spent a lot of time in university... and worked
in scientific areas.

Initially,  I also hoped that phyto's would work, but I wasn't
willing, and didn't have the money needed to get a minimal proper effect,
so I went DIY on the hormones after a long research on that too.
 
Go in the DIY Yahoo group and do a search there, or ask questions
if you don't mind getting answers you don't like.
There are thousands of
members ordering hormones on the net and they can't all be crazy...
At least 50% of them started using phyto's so they've got the
side by side experience which SHOULD matter to you.

Effectiveness IS important because if you take low (normal)
doses, it will be ineffective and there will be no danger.
You get my drift here, normal OTC dose = No danger and
no effectiveness.

Who wants to spend money on something ineffective.

Hi, Keira,

I looked into phytoestrogens some years ago and I arrived at the conclusion that if they did work, the results would be minimal for the cost of the quantity needed.

Tylenol might not cause the stomach upset that aspirin can but I do agree with you, I have learned that over time it can cause some degree of liver damage.

Below is a link to a group that questions, among many other things, the effectiveness and safety of phytoestrogens.

http://www.living-with-small-a-cup-breasts.com/safety-phytoestrogens-supplements-breasts.html

I hope that this sheds some additional light on this subject.

Wing Walker

[Keira]

While long term use of Tylenol (and the like) can cause liver damage (but not in all people).
The problem  is people who pop megadoses to ease acute pain,
the effect if this surdose on the liver is not felt immediatly, that's why its so dangerous.
But up to 6 months after this, the damage has been done
and the liver fails. This OTC medication and others are one of the main causes
of liver failure in the US. Other big causes, excess alcool and hepatitis C.
But, since normal use is not a problem and the numbers
are relatively low compared to the zillions of doses, its kept OTC.
Many other OTC meds are very dangerous and people don't realize this.

[Wing Walker]

This is an excerpt from a website whose link is below.  Please note how little real regulation the FDA has over herbal and other nutritional supplements and that there are no real standards for assays of concentration, strength, or purity.

Before one decides to use an herbal supplement, one needs an understanding of how dietary and herbal supplements are regulated in the United States.  In quite simple terms, supplements are largely unregulated.  This means that the supplement you take has no real standard in chemical composition, production, or recommended usage.

The FDA (Food and Drug Administration), the federal department in charge of overseeing the drug and food industries in the United States, is also relatively in charge of the dietary and herbal supplement industry.   However, the extent of their control extends only to labeling, and the actual content and use of supplements is unregulated.  The DSHEA (Dietary Supplement Health and Education Act) passed by Congress in 1994 outlines the FDA's breadth of oversight on the supplement industry.  The DSHEA allowed broadening of the definition of supplements to include herbal medicines.  It also dictated that while the FDA could mandate what needed to be included on the labels of  supplements, the FDA could not require that dietary and herbal supplements adhere to the same strict criteria of demonstrating safety and efficacy as do conventional prescription medicines.  Further, there is no requirement that dietary supplements must have a specific or standard composition from company to company, meaning that the amount of "active ingredients" may be either significant or miniscule.  Thus, one Echinacea supplement may be, and most likely is, vastly different from another Echinacea supplement.

http://altmed.creighton.edu/preg/facts_and_fiction.htm

I hope that this helps.

Wing Walker
Careful Buyer of Supplements

[Sarah]

You do realize that every, even natural things, are CHEMICALS,
if you don't understand this well its pointless to go on.

Really? I thought they were martians.
I'm talking about processed chemicals. In a lab. not naturally occuring compounds.

Why don't you do your research, which you obviously have not done
and come back to me. BTW, I've got at least 7 courses in chemistry,
3 in organic chemistry under my belt before I switched to physics, then
computer engineerings. I've spent a lot of time in university... and worked
in scientific areas.

Oh yeah, I'm really impressed. If you've done your research, then show me your data doctor,
Don't just keep saying "I'm too busy, but I took chemistry classes so I know..."

Go in the DIY Yahoo group and do a search there, or ask questions
if you don't mind getting answers you don't like.

Uh, Hello-o?? I'm asking you!!
You havn't mentioned ONE example of ANYONE having ANY adverse side effect.
I'm talking about Empirical evidence, not inferred presumptions.

There are thousands of
members ordering hormones on the net and they can't all be crazy...
At least 50% of them started using phyto's so they've got the
side by side experience which SHOULD matter to you.

Hello-o?? I never said they were crazy. I never said anything about prescription hormones.
They are quite safe, and effective.
This is about Herbals, and Hello-o?? they are not going to perform the same, side by side, pill for pill.
They are herbals!!! Not chemically processed, concentrated drugs!
They are not going to perform the same side by side, pill for pill, to act like they should is silly!

Of course they aren't! the dosages and concentration are not the same.
Does a beer have the same amount of alcohol as a bottle of vodka??
I thought you took chemistry??
You think they should perform the same, per dose??

Effectiveness IS important because if you take low (normal)
doses, it will be ineffective and there will be no danger.
You get my drift here, normal OTC dose = No danger and
no effectiveness.

hello-o? there is NO recommended dose for herbals!!!
What is "normal"
It's an herbal supplement.
The whole point is to be able to adjust it for your personal needs.

Who wants to spend money on something ineffective.

it is effective. you just have to take more herbal capsules than prescription estrogen.
"Who" is not for you to judge.
That doesn't have anything to do with the danger.

You ARE spreading FUD.
You have not presented ANY empirical evidence.

I HAVE presented empirical evidence, which you have not addressed as you said you would.

I am taking that your argument is based on FEAR of the UNCERTAINTY of what the long term effects might be as well as the varriableness of herbals, and DOUBT that they are safe based on NO PRESENTED EVIDENCE.

This IS FUD.

You haven't even said that YOU, PERSONALLY had any bad side effect of taking them!

You just say they are expensive to get a result.

SO WHAT!??

That is not danger. and "taking more capsules=Danger" is a presumption, not a fact.

A FUD presumption at that.

You still havn't said that you know of ANY PERSONAL TESTIMONY of bad side effects.

Without that, you are only presuming.
-

[Keira]

There is NO difference between natural compounds and processed compounds.
If they are bad, they are bad no matter their source.
I'm done with this because obviously, you're very obtuse. Over and out.

[Sarah]

There is NO difference between natural compounds and processed compounds.
If they are bad, they are bad no matter their source.
I'm done with this because obviously, you're very obtuse. Over and out.

Yes there is.
There are no buffers in Asprin which are needed for safe absorption.
They ARE present in Willow bark naturally.
Willow bark is safer.

I think you are kind of a bigot.

"A bigot is a prejudiced person who is intolerant of opinions, lifestyles, or identities differing from his or her own.

The origin of the word bigot in English dates back to at least 1598, via Middle French, and started with the sense of "religious hypocrite", especially a woman. Bigot is often used as a pejorative term against a person who is obstinately devoted to prejudices even when these views are challenged or proven to be false or not universally applicable or acceptable." emphasis added -from Wikipedia

[Marlene]

No. those vacuum things are harmfull, besides creating mega hickey's on your breasts!!! And have no demonstrable long term effects.
If you really want big nipples (this has been demonstrated), you can you breast pumps used
for getting milks. They don't pull too much and you have to use them often, but your nipples will be bigger after a while. 

Kiera,
you don't like much of anything that is alternative do you?
Do you have any Data to back up your claims or are you just spreading FUD?
Really.
I'm as interested in my safety as the next person, but you havn't quoted a single example of this or Phyto-estrogen that shows that it is dangerous.

If you have evidence, please present it.
-Sarah

Everything Keira has said about phyto-estrogens is correct.  If you would like I can probably get more information from a friend of mine who's a doctor of pharmacy.  The main problem is they are completely unregulated and you have no idea what's actually in that bottle.  They are possibly unsafe and in high dosages potentially life threatening.

Posted on: December 16, 2007, 02:17:12 AM

While long term use of Tylenol (and the like) can cause liver damage (but not in all people).

I work in a hospital and Tylenol overdosing is way more common than you think.  Do NOT exceed the limits they prescribe on the bottle!  Overdosing is toxic to your liver.  And once your liver is shot, you are gone.  Further, Tylenol is toxic in everyone (in sufficient quantities).

Sorry for the off topic comment.

[Dorothy]

We have got a great relationship. Ive been lucky.  No implants and I am a C cup & they are well formed.  My mums genes have got to do with it

[Sarah]

Everything Keira has said about phyto-estrogens is correct.  If you would like I can probably get more information from a friend of mine who's a doctor of pharmacy.  The main problem is they are completely unregulated and you have no idea what's actually in that bottle.  They are possibly unsafe and in high dosages potentially life threatening.

Hi Marlene.
Yeah actually I would be interested in that.
The thing is this: That argument applies to all herbal supplements.
I also don't agree that that is entirely true: some herbal companies take great pride in listing ingedients and presenting a quality product.
Stores like Whole Foods where I buy mine spend a great deal of time investigating brands that they carry and which ones are safe. Their own image depends on it.

Unregulation does not mean they are dangerous. It means they are unregulated. It all depends on the brand.( as Wing Walker's post points out)
I live in Boulder. If I had to guess I would say at least 95% of the population uses herbals for somthing or other. This is the home of Celestial Seasonings after all.
We view them as normal medicine here.
Have have many friends who have doctors degrees and masters degrees in alternative medicine.
Why should I not trust them?
I do expect a pharmacist to be against herbals. They are a pharmacist after all.
But there are just as many doctors who advocate their use.

I basically asked a simple question of Kiera.
I'll ask the same of you:
Do you know of anyone by word of mouth or otherwise who has experienced a bad side effect from using Phyto-estrogen?
Kiera didn't respond. She just changed the subject.


I really don't think it's all that much to ask.
I accept the risk of "unregulation".

I guess a better question (given the nature or the supplement industry) would be: Do you know of or have you ever heard of someone experiencing a bad side effect from taking Phyto-Estrogen, Specifically a brand if available.

I'm interested in whether there is a known risk of adverse side effects.
If there is not, then all there is against the use of Phyto-estrogen, is the classic argument against herbals.
An argument which I do not necessarily buy into. And neither do a lot of other people, incl. most of Boulder by the looks of things. Probably the Bay Area too. We have first hand experience that backs it up.

I just don't think that it's too much to ask, that somebody, somewhere, come up with some information to back up the danger claim, other than " fear of Herbals"
I want an actual story of someone's experience. Not just FUD; even if it is airing on the side of safety, if actual experience contradicts the fear, it should be noted, and not rejected.

P.S. Thanks Wing Walker, That post was really helpful

[Rachael]

i actually dont WANT implants... even if i stay a B cup (unlikely)... i dont want to be part fake... my breasts are special to me, and i want them untouched by a knife...
R