Pants - and wanting to cry

[ToriJo]

I'm MTF, early in my transition, so I still have lots of body problems, both in my mind and in my middle-aged, slightly beer-gutted body.  I'm working on hair removal, hormones will start soon, etc. (and lots of excercize - lost 30 lbs this year!).

I'm looking for pants to wear, and it reduces me to tears.  I have no rear, very muscular legs, the obvious problem between the legs, and basically no difference between hip and waist size. And a fairly large waist (measured at about 38" or 39") with short inseam (28").  I'd rather avoid skirts and dresses right now.  I'd like to wear something other then men's jeans, but don't want to expose a lot of my shape or skin (some lower leg is fine, but *lower*, not knee or above), and want something sort of flexible with where I could wear it. I also need to shop online right now, there is no way I'm brave enough to shop in person yet. I will get there, just not today - I'm looking for stuff I can wear in safe places in the meantime.

Can anyone give me pointers? I don't care if I'm beautiful, but I want to be authentic.

[The Flying Lemur]

Hey there!  Sounds like you'd be a plus size petite.  I was, when I was presenting as female.  I used to order clothes online from Woman Within (http://www.womanwithin.com/).  They have a lot of stuff for shorter, rounder women.   The cost is sort of moderate and the quality is not bad.

[Ashley3]

I'm MTF, early in my transition, so I still have lots of body problems, both in my mind and in my middle-aged, slightly beer-gutted body.  I'm working on hair removal, hormones will start soon, etc. (and lots of excercize - lost 30 lbs this year!).

I'm looking for pants to wear, and it reduces me to tears.  I have no rear, very muscular legs, the obvious problem between the legs, and basically no difference between hip and waist size. And a fairly large waist (measured at about 38" or 39") with short inseam (28").  I'd rather avoid skirts and dresses right now.  I'd like to wear something other then men's jeans, but don't want to expose a lot of my shape or skin (some lower leg is fine, but *lower*, not knee or above), and want something sort of flexible with where I could wear it. I also need to shop online right now, there is no way I'm brave enough to shop in person yet. I will get there, just not today - I'm looking for stuff I can wear in safe places in the meantime.

Can anyone give me pointers? I don't care if I'm beautiful, but I want to be authentic.

Congrats on the weight loss! It was tough for me at the start as well... it's surprising to me I was able to keep going but had faith when I saw a lot of positive changes like weight loss, hair removal, etc. I rarely made strides with wardrobe without cumbersome trial-and-error. It can be a pain!

How tall are you? I'm about 6' so I size women's jeans for my waist/hip but I look for tall sizes. Like a Macy's Inc 6 or 8 in tall size works well... note those jeans have elastane stretchable waist/hip so I can cheat the size. Before I was assuming automatically I had to get plus or W sizes... but that was a mistake. I didn't learn that until I walked into Macy's and a lovely lady corrected the error. Before that I had wasted a lot of money.

I may avoid a tall size pants/jeans if it's a Capris because those by definition don't have to go all the way down... so as long as it doesn't look odd, I enjoy it.

Boots can help hide jeans that don't have the right length but fit your waist/hips. I picked up a normally expensive pair off Calvins for dirt cheap ... they were reg size but fit waist/hip perfectly... but with boots, the short size is fine. ... By the way, Payless Shoes is a great place to get women's sizes up to 13. You can be two sizes, return what you don't want locally (or send it back if you prefer).

How I size specifically to a certain brand of clothing depends on the designer's size charts and approach but generally I size women's jeans to my waist/hip as mentioned, and I seek blouses and tops by sizing to that area... like 10, 12, or 14 ... or M, L, or XL depending... it varies a lot by designer.

Being able to shop in stores improved my online shopping. Online is great so don't get me wrong re above. What I do now when shopping online is I get two or three sizes, returning what I don't keep to the local store. I may return all items if I don't like the look when seeing on me. I know Macy's, Land's End, and Payless support this... I believe most online stores with local brick-and-mortar do this. So I will go to the Macy's site and look for blouses that I like and purchase two, like a 10, 12 ... or a 12, 14 ... or M, L, or L, XL. I do this based on the available size chart... again, sizes are not equal across designers.

So after I receive everything, I try everything... put the stuff that either doesn't fit right, or doesn't look good in a return bag and then go to the local store to return them... they credit the card and I think they just restock those things locally for others. I mean, this works really well. Since you don't want to go into the store, returns may also be an issue... you can always return via mail but it's more involved.

When shopping shirts/blouses, I tend to avoid crew necks... only V or scoop necks. Crew necks were initially just too "guy" looking on me. After some surgery they've started looking somewhat decent... thought I still like a more fem scoop, V.

With Polo or Sheath dresses with shoulder covering, or shirt dresses, OR (since I know you're not focused on dresses right now) ... blouses and tops... I size to the size chart for starters... but watch the shoulders... you want your shoulders  to meet the shoulder seems at the right point. Did I know this from day one? Definitely not! ... it was thanks to the lovely lady at Macy's who set me up as I'd not done prior. Point being: It's frustrating along the way... but taking action through that pain is what gives rise to providence. Like that saying attributed to Goethe... I think... "... the moment one definitely commits oneself, then Providence moves too."

Why do I mention all this? I used to be immensely frustrated with clothing choices to a point of not thinking anything would work... I've been majorly surprised along the way. It helped me to get to a point where I was truly assessing clothes for both size and aesthetics... and doing both correctly for me. That took time and trial and error. At first I was blindly purchasing. I didn't always notice that about crew necks but one day I just noticed that crew is "guy" and V or scoop is "gal" ... it's clear but I didn't see that at first.

For someone not fighting genetic male characteristics, it's a different story so we each have to learn our own stories. Even among ciswomen this is true...each ciswoman sort of learns what works, what doesn't... sizing and getting the right stuff is not easy street for anyone really. For transwomen I think it can be especially difficult... it's like culture shock because we're often migrating from years of doing things one way, to a totally different world, and one with definitely more complexity. Top that off with body differences on average.

All to say that I learned little tidbits that work for me through pain... a lot of failed purchases, some quite comical. It's still not perfect but the effort is easier because I realize it's a no-pain-no-gain thing. I feel for you... not sure if my experience will apply but wishing you to find the right stuff for yourself... you'll find your zone and favorites.

[Virginia 71]

I follow a lot of what Ashley said above. I also learned a lot from her reply too, so thanks Ashley. 

One note on size and size charts that I learned this summer, in the US anyway someone with a truly 36" waste may wear more like a 32 or 33. So, when you order pants you have to equate that to your size. I ordered some Lee shorts and capris and got 14 and 16 which were too big. I looked this up...it's called "vanity sizing" So, good to order an extra size option or two, try on, and return what is too big or small.

I have found that generally I wear a size or two smaller in pants than I do in tops. Pants usually fit in size 12, but tops are more like 14.

[Tommie_9]

I feel your angst ToriJo. I shopped online at first. That's no fun, and I constantly had to return stuff.  Sizes are so inconsistent. That's a pain in the you know what. Then I shopped at the mall pretending to buy for my wife, but I still had to return stuff. Then I started passing as MtF and became brave enough to shop as a woman and try things on in the ladies' dressing room before I bought them (be careful though, and make sure you disguise that male voice as much as possible). This kept me from having to make trips back to the store to return things and I could see how they looked on me in the dressing room mirror.

I learned the hard way not to pay with my credit card with my birth name on it - Thomas. I'm careful now to use cash or my credit card that has my transgender name on it to avoid that startled look from the cashier. Being called 'ma'am' when you put your stuff on the counter, and called 'sir' when they hand your card back to you is really embarrassing with a bunch of other women behind you! Yikes! Enjoying the satisfaction of cross-dressing in public, especially when shopping for clothes or jewelry is one heck of an adventure and takes so much darn work. But if I'm not enjoying it, what's the point?

As I lost weight, I went from a size 10 to a size 6/7, so be careful not to buy too many things as you're losing weight. You can lose a belly with the right exercise and proper diet, even at middle-age like me. And, you can get women's shape wear to help flatten it out. For me, losing weight made the biggest difference in my appearance as a binary F. You can get panties with butt pads or butt-lifter shape wear. It makes you look very sexy.  Experiment with what breast size and bra size fits your body shape and type. If that's out of whack you may not pass, even with all the other effort. Small 'boobs' fit me. Being a flat-chested girl isn't a bad thing either.

I prefer junior-girl's pants or petite sizes with a lower rise, because I hate high-wasted women's pants. You can find large junior cut pants. Skinny jeans tend to have shorter inseams -- and a lot of them are made with stretchy material. I agree with Ashley (my favorite name btw) about buying tops with deep v-necks and scoops. It makes a world of difference in the illusion you're trying to create, and it somehow makes your shoulders seem narrower. This also allows you to show off your necklaces - accessories are very important to enhance the femme illusion. Cary a women's clutch or purse. I carry a clutch. I love shopping and interacting with other women. It's fun. Finding bargains is a rush. It's hard work, but don't get discouraged. You'll get there. It just takes time so be patient with yourself. I hope these tips help. Good vibes your way! 

[elkie-t]

I also need to shop online right now, there is no way I'm brave enough to shop in person yet. I will get there, just not today - I'm looking for stuff I can wear in safe places in the meantime.

Can anyone give me pointers? I don't care if I'm beautiful, but I want to be authentic.

I'd recommend Kohls or Jcpenney. Ship to the store, pick your order (you're just picking a male order for your wife, no need to get anxious), go to a fitting room in a male department (your shipment is still nicely packed and no one knows what's inside), try it on, return without leaving the store (if not 100% satisfied). You can order several items at once, or same item in different sizes and plan on returning those that you didn't like.

But unless you live in a small town, I'd recommend to go to Goodwill or Salvation Army. Quick glance around, see no one you personally know, then jump into feminine clothing section and pick whatever you like. Sales clerks there a) don't really care what they sell b) used to cross dressers buying stuff there all the time c) being trained to be polite. There is _nothing_ to worry about. Just think of it as buying an outfit for the Halloween or think, you're doing a new theatric/comedy show and
need female clothes not for crossdressing, but for business. Confidence in what you're doing is the key.

[Tommie_9]

Confidence in what you're doing is the key.

This is absolutely the best advice I can think of! It took me a lot of nervous times cross-dressing in public and occasionally being misgendered, a big downer, to get better at it and build confidence. Don't fret too much over it, though, but you have to stick your neck out a few times to start building confidence. Go to another town to cross-dress and shop if it's not too far from you. This will make you feel safe and help you build confidence. In the meantime, shopping online is great to start building your girl wardrobe. Just have fun!!! 

[elkie-t]

Shopping online = wasted money (unless it's also a brick store, where you can pick up order, and return it if it doesn't work).

Dresses and skirts look really nice in a picture on a female model, not so well on your average MTF. Sizing is way inaccurate and different every time. Experience of what works and what not is minimal at this point. Ladies don't buy their clothes just because something looks nice. They buy what suits them exceptionally well, stands out to their tastes from other items, suits their taste and style, fits the budget and can be reused in different combinations with other items of their wardrobe.

[sf_erika]

As others have said, trial and error is key.  Two things that have helped me with trial and error:
1) an online service that allows you to "borrow" a wardrobe for a monthly fee, like Le Tote.  I have been able to try on a lot of different things with them.
2) when you think you're ready to do something more brick-and-mortar like, look for a trans- or cd-friendly thrift shop.  That was my first foray into non-online shopping, and it was great to try on clothes in the dressing room and also not pay too much for stuff.  If o got buyer's remorse (which often happens with me and women's clothes), then at least it was only a couple of bucks down the drain. 
Using these two things, I'm slowly putting together a closet that I like and that looks good on me.

Erika


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[JoanneB]

As a former fatty myself I congratulate you for the herculean effort to drop that first 30 lbs.

When it comes to women's clothes, and sizing, there is nothing but "Trial & Error". Did you ever wonder why you always see women walk into try-out rooms with giant armloads of clothes, only to do it all again but in different sizes? According to "the charts" and even some old, or is that "Vintage" items I have, I am still the same size 12-14 ish. Yet if you look in closet you'll see plenty of 8's & 10's, even a few 6's and only the very odd 12, as in the nostalgic "Vintage" items I don't wear.

I have the complete opposite problem of yours for slacks. I am tall, have a high 30" (depends where you measure) waist and 36" or so hips.  Jeans, for whatever reason, seem to be plentiful in whatever inseam you want. Anything dressier, to me, seems to be made for women 5'2" tall. Many of the second hand jeans I buy the back of the cuffs obviously dragged a lot or stepped on a lot. Heels vs flats for the prior owner I guess. Now that I am seriously prepping for a work wardrobe I need dress slacks (office work as well as on the production floor getting dirty. The life of an engineer heroine).

Today I am going shopping again at my favorite places to make mistakes, Thrift Shops. Plus I am frugal. Spending big $$$ for something when you try on again at home and ask "Why?" bothers me a lot. When it's $5 I don't feel so bad

[ToriJo]

Thanks all, I will be trying to shop in person at some thrift stores sometime in the future, but right now I'm not ready for that, but will get there, I'm sure (I've made it this far, and I have thrift store in my DNA - my family used to run one, so I'm absolutely going to do it, just not now).  I'm brave, but not yet that brave!

I've managed to order a couple things online, and if they don't fit I'll just return them.  I don't think I'd wear anything except to a therapist or group meeting right now due to my facial hair and the anxiety that brings me (but I've started the process of dealing with that).

[JoanneB]

Thanks all, I will be trying to shop in person at some thrift stores sometime in the future, but right now I'm not ready for that, but will get there, I'm sure (I've made it this far, and I have thrift store in my DNA - my family used to run one, so I'm absolutely going to do it, just not now).  I'm brave, but not yet that brave!

I've managed to order a couple things online, and if they don't fit I'll just return them.  I don't think I'd wear anything except to a therapist or group meeting right now due to my facial hair and the anxiety that brings me (but I've started the process of dealing with that).

If you order on-line from department stores you can pick up and return at the store

Been there, done that too

[Perle]

You might also try Dress Barn during weight transitions. They have pull on slacks that look like regular slacks. I also spent a lot of time in leggings and tunics/flowy longer dresses, or shorter dresses. That period informed my current style of unstructured/asymmetric dresses and tops. I rarely wear pants. I'm a woman (bio) and my body is not comfortable in pants. I'm on this forum because I treat trans patients and am here to offer support and love to you all.


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[Dani2118]

ToriJo my SIL has a full beard and dark hair and some times doesn't care about shaving it ether, we worry to much about that, but I do too! And Perle please post here all you care to, we need your advise!!! If your going to a thrift store find a female friend that goes to them a lot to go with you because they're vast fountain of knowledge! I've come to LOVE wearing women's clothes, they're much more comfortable. And I don't know why but pants fit better[when I get the right size LOL], waist and hips are the same measurement so??? And for short inseam remember the word 'Petite', it just means 'short'.

[Ashley3]

...
I ordered some Lee shorts and capris and got 14 and 16 which were too big. I looked this up...it's called "vanity sizing" ...
...

Same sort of thing happened to me... early on I was online-only, too frightened to shop in the stores, ordered a 14W skirt that dropped to the floor after being put on. seems so many women's pants, jeans, skirts... anything down there was best sized to be tight around the waist... I had (have) enough body fat there to allow for a tighter (smaller) size which creates more of a hold while pulling in some of that extra waist shall we say.... creating a little bit more of a waist curve where I need all I can get. I don't know for certain, but seems like most women's pants have some sort of elastane thing going on in the waist if not all over the clothing... perhaps more forgiving to sizing down, perhaps offering shaping and fit when sizing down. Rigid jeans/pants don't do that and I think guys get used to rigid clothing which must be sized equal or larger... for women, seems elastane is more common and sizing equal or more likely down may be better depending on designer, pant or top etc. 

[Ashley3]

... I constantly had to return stuff.  Sizes are so inconsistent. That's a pain in the you know what. ...

I had that same sort of thing happen... and there was a time when I was too afraid to even return things which meant failed online purchases meant wasted money. It was silly really... pay with credit card, name, address so they already know who I am... they likely get thousands of orders and don't focus on my mine, but for some reason I'm thinking someone will get my return and take note the male name (back then I had my birth name) and of course that person handling returns would call everyone I know and let them know I was cross-dressing. ... the things we do to ourselves by overthinking.

... As I lost weight, I went from a size 10 to a size 6/7, so be careful not to buy too many things as you're losing weight. ...

Great point... I experienced a lot of weight loss too and clothing initially purchased quickly didn't work any longer.

[Ashley3]

... It took me a lot of nervous times cross-dressing in public and occasionally being misgendered, a big downer, to get better at it and build confidence. Don't fret too much over it, though, but you have to stick your neck out a few times to start building confidence. ...

That makes a lot of sense... My first stroll down the street in a dress was sweaty (coming out is a great way to lose weight ), horrible makeup job, my big nose back then "honk honk" ... awkward is being nice. But I did it... I ate out that day to... went into a shop... they were very nice. Important note, it was an extremely trans-friendly part of town. So like you're saying... that was one of many confidence-building steps... and they continue today but I'm much more relaxed and my focus is a bit different... today voice is the thing... that's my #1 giveaway... but got mam'ed on phone today for first time since I can remember. Another confidence builder but more to do... etc.

[Tommie_9]

I'm much more relaxed and my focus is a bit different... today voice is the thing... that's my #1 giveaway... but got mam'ed on phone today for first time since I can remember. Another confidence builder but more to do... etc.

Yep! Voice is my number one thing I'm working on right now. At first I sounded like Mickey Mouse, which sounds fake. Doh!  I practice a lot and it has improved to the point that I haven't been misgendered because of it. No second looks lately. I'm more confident in having conversations with other women when I'm out shopping or whatever. And be ready!  Women will start a conversation with you in a heart beat. One thing I found that really helped me was singing along in a female pitch to songs I know, e.g., Elton John songs.  So, getting the right clothes is necessary, but there is a whole lot more to passing as a girl.

[Dani2118]

There is something that some cis women hold against us that helps us with out with pants, anything with a waistband. Swelling, water retention, 'that time of the month' is why women's clothes are so stretchy. I haven't graduated to dresses yet  hopefully not to long till I do! I used to go shopping with my wife and SIL and it drove me nuts, I couldn't get anything: man mode     Now I can and I'm much happier      Did you used to find a chair to wait but now 3 hours seems like 30 mins.

[ToriJo]

I ended up ordering some pants online - the fit on the waist great, are a style I like on me, and are comfortable. They're long but I can fix that easily enough (and will do so this week). I didn't quite know what to expect for how women's clothes would feel on me - the word I have for it now is relaxing. I am kind of surprised a pair of pants and simple top could *relax* me.

I've asked a friend to go with me to a thrift store next week.  I'm seriously debating going dressed, but I'll probably chicken out of that and instead start dressing for something safer like support group. It still scares the crap out of me, but I expect I'll be really glad I did it. But I sure wish I could skip this phase where I won't look or feel particularly feminine in public.