Gender neutrality

[Denise]

I attend a Gender Queer group that meets weekly and is attended by 18-24 people.  At the beginning and the end we all introduce ourselves with name and pronouns (notice not "prefered pronouns" because that would imply that another pronoun would be "correct" but I "prefer..." a different one.)

I would say that all but 2 or 3 of us in attendance use They/Them.  Some have taken hormones for years some have never taken hormones but they are still they/them.

So I'm trying (it's hard) to not use he/she or him/her in everyday conversation for anyone.  My guess is no one will notice.  The one challenge is if I don't know the names of a heterosexual couple I'm not sure how to distinguish between the two in the third person.

[RavenMoon]

When talking about a couple who's names you don't know, you say 'they/them"


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[Dee Marshall]

I like your take on "preferred" pronouns. Sometimes even the names don't help right away. My wife is Randi and I'm Dion since birth. People swapped our names all the time when I presented male.

:

April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!

Think outside the voice box!

[echo7]

It's really difficult because they/them are plural forms of he/him/she/her.  So it's not just a matter of using a different name/pronoun for someone, it's a matter of changing the way you use the English language.  That's really hard to get people to do, and quite frankly I feel it's too much to ask the rest of the world to do that.  To me it doesn't make sense to use an existing word and give it an entirely new meaning.  If a new word is used instead such as ze/zir, I think it'd be easier not only for others to use correct pronouns, but to gain acceptance by the cisgender world.

[N A]

I don't get it 

For reference: my native language has only gender neutral pronouns and we rarely if ever refer to other people by "Mr" or "Mrs" or anything indicative of gender. That's all I ever knew growing up so to me it's natural not to think of someone's gender when talking about them.

What is this context where you have to refer to one partner by using a gender specific pronoun?
If you have to make a distinction based on gender, can't you just use  the word man/woman instead?

How do you people deal if you have to talk about same sex couple?

[Denise]

N.A. mostly context dictates to whom you are referring.  One thing English doesn't have are gender specific words like French and Spanish.  So we're half way there.

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[N A]

N.A. mostly context dictates to whom you are referring.  One thing English doesn't have are gender specific words like French and Spanish.  So we're half way there.

Oh yeah, I understand this intellectually for sure. Yet still, I'm a product of my own culture and would have no problem finding some other way expressing the same thing (another question is whether others would have problems following my train of thought). I simply have hard time imagining a situation where that information would be relevant yet not to be replaced by man/woman/some other word.

[Devlyn]

It's really difficult because they/them are plural forms of he/him/she/her.  So it's not just a matter of using a different name/pronoun for someone, it's a matter of changing the way you use the English language.  That's really hard to get people to do, and quite frankly I feel it's too much to ask the rest of the world to do that.  To me it doesn't make sense to use an existing word and give it an entirely new meaning.  If a new word is used instead such as ze/zir, I think it'd be easier not only for others to use correct pronouns, but to gain acceptance by the cisgender world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/They

[SailorMars1994]

It's really difficult because they/them are plural forms of he/him/she/her.  So it's not just a matter of using a different name/pronoun for someone, it's a matter of changing the way you use the English language.  That's really hard to get people to do, and quite frankly I feel it's too much to ask the rest of the world to do that.  To me it doesn't make sense to use an existing word and give it an entirely new meaning.  If a new word is used instead such as ze/zir, I think it'd be easier not only for others to use correct pronouns, but to gain acceptance by the cisgender world.

Not quite. In fact, to many who I have interacted with who do indeed support gender neutrality and the non-binary part of the spectrum, the use of 'they and them' is generally by far more acceptable then 'ze/zir'. To them, they see that as just trying to invent words and it plays to the whole ''tumbl gone mad'' ideas pump in society and trying to invent genders where as the 'they and them' have a more appeal to the general public.

[Allie24]

I attend a Gender Queer group that meets weekly and is attended by 18-24 people.  At the beginning and the end we all introduce ourselves with name and pronouns (notice not "prefered pronouns" because that would imply that another pronoun would be "correct" but I "prefer..." a different one.)

I would say that all but 2 or 3 of us in attendance use They/Them.  Some have taken hormones for years some have never taken hormones but they are still they/them.

So I'm trying (it's hard) to not use he/she or him/her in everyday conversation for anyone.  My guess is no one will notice.  The one challenge is if I don't know the names of a heterosexual couple I'm not sure how to distinguish between the two in the third person.

I'm going to gamble that if they are a heterosexual couple then they probably use the pronouns prescribed to their sex. If they use different pronouns then don't sweat messing up.

I tried doing the very same thing a while back, but I gave up because, well, for the most part, you can guess someone's pronouns on looks alone (for the MOST part, obviously many of us here, and others are exceptions to this rule), and I found it silly to treat everyone as if they could possibly be trans. I'd be hurt if someone came up to me using neutral pronouns because I would feel like it implies that you can't guess I'm a woman by looking at me. I actually like when people assume my gender, because they assume it correctly. But that's just my take. Everyone has different experiences with this.

[Sarah_P]

The transgender group I met with last month did the same thing, introducing ourselves & our pronouns. I have a really hard time remembering names (unless they're semi-unique or I can instantly relate them to something like a character from a show or movie I like), so I was terrified I'd get people's pronouns wrong. Thankfully we all made name tags with both name & pronouns on them.
I've been noticing more than ever at work how much everyone uses gendered pronouns. I'm sure they've always done that, but now it's especially noticeable. Of course this town has a generally 1800's mentality, so I don't expect to ever hear someone use gender-neutral pronouns.

[widdershins]

It's really difficult because they/them are plural forms of he/him/she/her.  So it's not just a matter of using a different name/pronoun for someone, it's a matter of changing the way you use the English language.  That's really hard to get people to do, and quite frankly I feel it's too much to ask the rest of the world to do that.  To me it doesn't make sense to use an existing word and give it an entirely new meaning.  If a new word is used instead such as ze/zir, I think it'd be easier not only for others to use correct pronouns, but to gain acceptance by the cisgender world.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/They

Yeah. People in a lot of dialects of English already use singular they to refer to someone whose gender they don't know, and have for centuries. Chaucer used it. Shakespeare used it. Jane Austen and F. Scott Fitzgerald and a ton of other lauded writers from the early middle ages up until now have used it.

Those of us who use they/them aren't asking people to do anything different than we've already been doing since before Modern English was even a thing.

[Custard Squirrel]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/They


Yeah. People in a lot of dialects of English already use singular they to refer to someone whose gender they don't know, and have for centuries. Chaucer used it. Shakespeare used it. Jane Austen and F. Scott Fitzgerald and a ton of other lauded writers from the early middle ages up until now have used it.

Those of us who use they/them aren't asking people to do anything different than we've already been doing since before Modern English was even a thing.

Yeah, if anything, I've been surprised to learn over the last few years just how many people aren't aware of the singular they/them's existence. Now I'm wondering where I picked it up, because it has always felt completely natural to use they/them when referring to someone who's gender I didn't know. It wasn't a deliberate thing either, I've been doing it since before I even knew that there were individuals who preferred it for themselves.


"I saw my doctor yesterday."

"Did they prescribe you anything for your headaches?"


"What if someone wanders into the arena?"

"Then I hope they can defend themselves."


Admittedly it could feel a little distant, since it's most often used to refer to (and therefore subconsciously associated with) people who you know next to nothing about or are even totally hypothetical. I think my brother had some minor discomfort about using they/them pronouns for that reason.

[Denise]

...I'd be hurt if someone came up to me using neutral pronouns because I would feel like it implies that you can't guess I'm a woman by looking at me. I actually like when people assume my gender, because they assume it correctly. But that's just my take. Everyone has different experiences with this.

Allie, in first person conversations you don't need pronouns.  "Hi, how may I help you?" works just as well as "Hi, how many I help you ma'am?"


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[KathyLauren]

Yeah, if anything, I've been surprised to learn over the last few years just how many people aren't aware of the singular they/them's existence. Now I'm wondering where I picked it up, because it has always felt completely natural to use they/them when referring to someone who's gender I didn't know. It wasn't a deliberate thing either, I've been doing it since before I even knew that there were individuals who preferred it for themselves.


"I saw my doctor yesterday."

"Did they prescribe you anything for your headaches?"


"What if someone wanders into the arena?"

"Then I hope they can defend themselves."


Admittedly it could feel a little distant, since it's most often used to refer to (and therefore subconsciously associated with) people who you know next to nothing about or are even totally hypothetical. I think my brother had some minor discomfort about using they/them pronouns for that reason.

Interesting that you point this out.  I use the singular 'they' unconsciously in situations like your examples.  And yet I have a great deal of trouble overriding my inner grammarian when I need to use the singular 'they' to refer to a non-binary person.

I think, for me, the difference is whether or not I know who the person is.  It seems to make a difference to the grammar whether the person referred to is specific or not.  Until identified, the doctor could be any doctor in the country.  The person wandering into the arena could be any person on the planet.  For an unspecified person, the singular 'they' seems natural.

When the person is someone specific (regardless of whether I personally know them or not), it feels unnatural and ungrammatical to use 'they'.

I know it is something I just need to get over, but it is an uphill struggle.  Darned grammar school!  The younger generation probably has an easier time of it because they weren't taught grammar.  [/old fogey mode]

[KathyLauren]

Allie, in first person conversations you don't need pronouns.  "Hi, how may I help you?" works just as well as "Hi, how many I help you ma'am?"


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But what about: "Wait a second.  She was here first!"  Not first person, but the person being referred to is present.

[Lady Lisandra]

But what about: "Wait a second.  She was here first!"  Not first person, but the person being referred to is present.

You could say "This person was first". That's what I do. I try to reformulate so that I don't have to make any reference to gender. I also do it when speaking about myself, and. I've become quite good at it. For example, I don't know the gender of one of my classmates. We've been speaking for almost a year, and I've avoided any reference to gender until now. Not that I'm afraid to ask, it's just that one don't really need to know. It wouldn't make any difference for me.

Also, I recommend if you don't know how to call someone, just ask. Either gender of preferred pronoun. They'll appreciate your predisposition to use whatever fits them best instead of being angry about you misgendering them.  At least that's how I react when I'm asked that.

[Allie24]

Allie, in first person conversations you don't need pronouns.  "Hi, how may I help you?" works just as well as "Hi, how many I help you ma'am?"


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Ahh, now I see where you were getting at. I was thinking something more along the lines of throwing "they/them" pronouns at everyone and anyone.

Though, admittedly, I do like it when people call me "ma'am."

[RavenMoon]

It's really difficult because they/them are plural forms of he/him/she/her.

Not exactly true. They/them are singular forms when you don't know the person's gender.




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[SailorMars1994]

Not exactly true. They/them are singular forms when you don't know the person's gender.




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