Different Degrees of Transsexualism

[Shana A]

*looking around for fire hydrant to douse fire he started*

Do you want a primary or secondary fire hydrant?  >

y2g

[NicholeW.]

Nero,

I think I understand. I have read a lot of your 3500+ posts and although you are sometimes stubborn and sometimes get upset with the BS you read, I just don't get the notion that you set out in an effort to start divisiveness and dissension. So, understanding that isn't a problem. Hugs.

I would imagine that the question you pose now is many-layered. Why do we do as we do? For me that is many-layered. Beating early and a rape pretty early as well and ... I simply withdrew. Bad luck I chose to be somewhere I thought was safe that turned out to be the bear's own den. So, I never undervalue the importance of experience, of being where I am and when i am in this process.

I think that social situations have a lot to do with how we behave and how our actions incline themselves. It's a pretty well-known and accepted proposition that individuals withdraw parts of ourselves from relationship when we decide that to accept and live into those parts will cause us loss of relationship. I know that some people will object that "I was this way from before birth." And being in relationship does not deny the intrinsic existence of GID and TSism within any individual -- socialization and relationship and its lack do moderate how we express and act-out our GID-ridden lives. Like the prevalence of clouds and rain and lack of sunlight in some geographical areas moderates how depressed or vivacious someone may be at a particular time of year.

(Excuse me if the language is too "male." I'm a therapist by trade and I speak that vocational language. If it's not "girls at the mall" there are reasons for that that have nothing to do with gender or gender expression.)

So, I think that how far we decide to go is not just an expression of how intense our understanding and feelings of somatic dissonance are. I think they are contingent on how we attempt to fit in and how we 'read' our safety in what we are willing to express, when we are willing to express that and how we express it in terms of how comfortable, or uncomfortable, we are within the relationships and interactions our lives lead us into.

Some people may have an aversion to others 'recognizing' our TSism and so we delay. Others will have experiences like mine that instill a notion of being always unsafe or that transition is just too painful to undertake. Still others, like you, will not absolutely be hell-bent on changing all of their somatic configurations as quickly as they can. Others will not want to have sex, for instance, unless their bodies completely conform to their mental diagrams of themselves. Still others will perceive that sexual relations may well be a way to obtain the somatic changes they wish for and they find no other way to earn the money fast enough to suit them.

I don't know that when we regard all those other factors that moderate our acting on our GID that there is any useful distinction in how we go about our transitions, or even (whether or not) if we transition at all. So many variables and so little ability to piece-together an understanding of how this works for everyone.

I hope that is all obscure and unintelligible enough to actually seem to make sense.

My short answer is : there are just too many factors that defy quantification to make a general "Rule" of TSism and how it plays out in the lives of anyone at all.   

[Rachael]

i think nero did raise a good point... There have been people in the 70s, this horridly nasty time you described, who came out, and transitioned,... at a young age, and other ages. Some people on here constantly remind me of how horrid it was back then, and how easy you young uns have it today... (sound familiar?) i tell you one thing, its NOT easier... not when you loose everything becuse your parents are a***holes from 'your time' I dont find anything offensive about primary and secondry... One group, come out young, and transition young, one group transition later... seriously, if you think im falsely categorising you, please tell me, if you DIDNT transition in your 30s onwards, please, let me know, so i dont miscategorise some folk... whats offensive about the truth? or is this one of those cases of 'la la la la not listening im really a teenage girl im not 40 honest' routines?
back to the topic howerver....

i do belive there are different degrees of transexualism... i found out about myself very young, and i came out, and im ft by 20 now...
i tried to commit suicide 3 times in my teens, because i was so unhappy and in pain... i literally waited as long as i could, i suffered my maximum... i would have died if i hadnt transitioned when i did.

there are people who come out young, and transition young
there are people who come out young, and transition late, or over a longer time.
there are those people who come out later, and transition later...
thier all transexual. your all living as your true sex now... what does it matter how transexual you are? i dont WANT to be some 'awesome super cool primary' for lols... its not a status symbol to me... i just suffered more in a shorter period of time...
there are different degrees of transexualism. its fairly evident. Even if they dont want to admit it because it might ruin thier '->-bleeped-<- cred'
R

rachael, since you say you value honesty, i believe that you  purposefully say things that can be interpreted to be spiteful and hurtful in order to stir the pot and draw attention to yourself; and then say you didnt mean anything by it.  you may not find the word secondary offensive, but it has been used in an offensive manner.  the point is, if a word hurts people and you know it, maybe you shouldnt use it.  that is just common decency.

no one with gid has it "easy."  but if you cannot admit that there are better opportunities for young people today that does make it easier to transition, then you are being disingenuous.

you are not the only one with scars on your wrists, dear. 

and as i said previously, it is not your place to categorize anyone, or say whatever you want with no repercussions because you say it is "the truth"

to be honest love. i think your wrong. i dont want to cause hurt, or stir things, i speak the truth as i see it, if that offends some, then maybe they need to look at themselves a bit? i wasnt denying there are better oportunities today for young people, and older.
Dont try to suggest that all transpeople will come out in thier teens thesedays.  I will place money on the fact that there will still be middleaged transitioners, you simply cannot say that will end now...  there is no evidence to prove that all transpeople know from birth. Some do, some dont, i dont see how definitions that clarify groups, are offensive unless your so insecure in yourself that you find the truth upsetting.... are you not men, and women? does it MATTER when you came out, but that you are now happy?
R

[Rachael]

Can someone round up all these escaped drama llamas?
NOBODY SAID YOU WERENT REAL ash... nobody even hinted it. its almost like you WANT to be victimised... The only time real or not real has been brought up, it was you doing it...
R

[MeghanAndrews]

I don't get the whole 'primary/secondary'/'i'm true you are not' thing. It keeps coming up and coming up and coming up and it's almost comical to me at this point how it just gets recycled and recycled. The arguments are always the same...and played out mind you. It's like fishing and casting out the same bait hoping to catch some new fish or something, I don't know. I'm just incredulous that people keep visiting the topic and getting worked up over it time and time again.

I have an easy solution, don't let your complete self-definition be defined by how others in our community (if that's what we call it) and even outside of our community see us or define us. I mean, isn't the point to kind of get to this place where you are comfortable with yourself, finally? It seems tough, if not impossible, to get to the place you are trying to get too if you stay involved in topics that threaten your self definition and progress.

So, I read the forums, some mean something to me, others don't. I typically read most of them. No topics scare me, but some just don't effect me. This whole 'primary/secondary' 'where-do-i-fit-thing' just seems kind of pointless.

Oh, and I'm convinced Nero is really god sitting back and testing all of us to see how we react to things, lol. Nice job god...I mean Nero

Meghan

[Andre]

Title says it all. I do believe there are degrees of transsexualism. What about you?



Note: If you just want to argue about the relevance of this discussion, we've heard it all before. This is a serious inquiry into the degrees of our condition.

There are transgender persons that don't think hormones and surgery is necessary for them to live in desired role...
thare are transsexuals who want surgeries and hormones..
there are crossdressers whose sex and gender are aligned but they sometime want to be accepted as opposiite sex
and there are androgynous persons that feel like both genders,
and gender queer persons that are beyond gender...
of course...
Transsexuality is connected with our body,when mind-software and body-hardware are not compatibile

for some,that sense of transsexuality came from other people they noticed that u act socially like opposite gender(I'm talking abouyt mind here,not body-sex)_ BUT FOR MOST that sense is deep within ourselves...we feel like opposite sex even if our behaviour is not so macho(for FTMs) or femme (for mtfs). So everyone is trans on hois own way....but that desire to change body exists

[Lisbeth]

: Different Degrees of Transsexualism

Of course.  They are called primary and secondary transsexualism.  There, I said it! 

tink

There are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types and those who don't.

[Kat]

my views on the subject

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,20585.0.html

[Rachael]

: Different Degrees of Transsexualism

Of course.  They are called primary and secondary transsexualism.  There, I said it! 

tink

There are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types and those who don't.

i heard there were two types of binary code... i wonder which one feels fake?
i mean TWO???
thats like, SO offensive and discriminatory...
R

[Lisbeth]

There are two types of people in the world: those who divide people into two types and those who don't.

i heard there were two types of binary code... i wonder which one feels fake?
i mean TWO???
thats like, SO offensive and discriminatory...
R

There are 10 kinds of people in the world; those who undersand binary and those who don't.

[Rachael]

just to be contrary here. but this topic isnt about androgyne, and other buttoholes... its TRANSEXUALITY... which surely is a binary topic... m2f, f2m... what i wonder about is, why is it so bad to use labels? surely they are only there to help understanding? to categorise? if you dont want a label, get out of the way of the guy with the price gun!
R

[Suzie]

it'd be naive of people to think that there aren't types.  Dr. Harry Benjamin himself classified transsexualism into different groups and subtypes.  I'm a
diagnosed type VI.
http://www.symposion.com/ijt/benjamin/chap_02.htm

Group 1
Type I  Pseudo TV
Type II  Fetishistic TV
Type III  True TV

Group 2
Type IV  TS, Nonsurgical

Group 3
Type V  TS, Moderate intensity
Type VI  TS, High intensity

My transsexualism goes up to XI

[cindybc]

Boy do I agree with Rachael, for as long as one is living in this finite reality it is necessary to categorize what is not quantifiable by our limited minds. Cindy climbs back under her rock and all that can be discerned are two little beady eyes blinking in the darkness from beneath the rock.

Cindy

[Marlene]

After 4 pages I'll repeat what I said on page one:

Classification systems belong on the trash heap of history.  They have only caused trouble, frustration and pain for us.

The focus should be on people and making their lives better, not on nomenclature!

[Lisbeth]

just to be contrary here. but this topic isnt about androgyne, and other buttoholes... its TRANSEXUALITY... which surely is a binary topic... m2f, f2m... what i wonder about is, why is it so bad to use labels? surely they are only there to help understanding? to categorise? if you dont want a label, get out of the way of the guy with the price gun!
R

No, I disagree.  If there are, say, three genders: male, female, androgyne.  Then a transsexual can be MtoF, MtoA, FtoM, MtoA, AtoF, or AtoM.

[NicholeW.]

But most are just themselves.

[Rachael]

just to be contrary here. but this topic isnt about androgyne, and other buttoholes... its TRANSEXUALITY... which surely is a binary topic... m2f, f2m... what i wonder about is, why is it so bad to use labels? surely they are only there to help understanding? to categorise? if you dont want a label, get out of the way of the guy with the price gun!
R

No, I disagree.  If there are, say, three genders: male, female, androgyne.  Then a transsexual can be MtoF, MtoA, FtoM, MtoA, AtoF, or AtoM.

trans gender, yes, transexual? NO...
there are but two sexes. MALE, and FEMALE,
androgynes can be transgender that, is not at question. also, how can anyone be A to anything? surely thats an endpoint, as people are raised either male or female..

and why the hell does my post have 'buttholes' in? i never said that or anything like that!
also, wtf is walmart 101?
R

[Keira]

Rachael, coming back on a thing you said earlier, you said,
I speak truth and if people can't deal with it, maybe they should look
at themselves. Well, ever heard of empathy? To have a meaningfull
conversation, you've got to understand the many point of views and
context others are coming from. If not, you're talking in the desert
and nobody can understand or care about what you say.

At the base, I come back to the FACT (one of the only ones mentioned in this thread)
that all classification system of TS are very weakly supported by empirical evidence,
and thus all theories are unsupported. Not surprising since TS have been studied
mostly by hacks in the last 40 years!! The amount of money spent on us is infinitely
small compared to the immense diversity of our community.

That's someplace we should start from from,
a common ground. If you, or anyone else, believes the opposite, that
all has been settle and there is a definite classification system, of course its
impossible to run a conversation because we're all talking past each other.

Also, "because it feels right" is a basis for moral classification rather than a semantic one.

[NicholeW.]

also, wtf is walmart 101?
R

It's a way to try to shame and humiliate. To deny any validity to what someone else said. What followed that is an unnecessarily dense quotation from Immanuel Kant that was supposed, no doubt, to heighten that effect.

In America, and I suspect other places too, it's a way to put someone in their place and to shut down conversation.

But, as Keira points out that is already done anyhow. 

[Veronica Secret]

just to be contrary here. ... its TRANSEXUALITY... which surely is a binary topic... m2f, f2m... what i wonder about is, why is it so bad to use labels?

Kiera replied

Rachael, aside from being beautifully true to form (consistency is helpful!) what did you major in? Wal_Mart 101?

LOL BTW it's TRANSSEXUALITY.