"Masculine" and "Feminine" Sexuality

[MirandaLove]

Bi transwoman here.  Sometimes when talking about sex or sexuality with others, I have dysphoria come up where I feel like I am speaking "as a man" with male desire and male tendencies.  This is especially true when speaking with straight women. 

For example, I am very visually aroused and a bit of a voyeur.  Naturally I "turn that off" when I'm in private women's spaces.  But there is the general idea that men "tend to be more visual".  So that makes me feel a bit out of place.  But there is the fear that this will be interpreted as a rooster in the hen house.  There is the fear that I will be seen as fake.

Just wanting to share and hear about your experiences and thoughts and feelings.




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[Rachel]

Hi Miranda,

When I was younger and in male locker rooms I would hide from other makes. I was really ashamed of my body. When in female locker rooms I am uncomfortable and pretty much get in and out as quick as possible. In either locker rooms I was not looking at anyone.

[Eryn T]

I'm definitely no expert when it comes to sex, but I will throw in my 2 cents and personal view.

I'm MtF, myself, and I always felt as a man sex is more in the action or performance of it; while as a woman, it's more about the emotional connection and intimacy. But the libido is regulated(somewhat) in both masculine and feminine by testosterone.  Plenty of girls are visually aroused by a large package, just as much as the sight of some seductive curves can really get a man going. 

I really don't think you need to worry about being a Rooster in a Hen House, plenty of biological women are bi, too. And how can they not be? Women are so beautiful, and would have a better understanding of each other in such an intimate situation, too. But sometimes, I(or any woman) would really just like to have their partner take charge and really 'take' them sexually.

I really feel like you might be worrying over something that really isn't an issue to anyone but yourself; and if someone does have a problem with how you're expressing your arousal or interests(cat-calling or reverse cat-calling situations) then literally forget their input, because after all they are YOUR feelings!

[Cassandra B]

Here is the thing, almost every sexual attribute attached to men and women is societal garbage with no biological foundation, stereotypes are powerful when reinforced daily by society. How often do you hear on the radio a commercial pushing in not so subtle ways that a man is to be powerful, strong, lean, with the sexual desire of a lion? Or, how about the endless assault on woman to be thin, voluptuous, curvy, etc?

There is no biological reason women can not be visually stimulated, or the one who is more agressive, or with the bigger need for sex; none that is beyond society saying this is the way that women should behave, act, think, or look.

[warlockmaker]

I was a famous playboy and had hundrefs of affairs, 4 marriages and 4 children from 32 to 6 years old. I loved sex as a male with a female. Lots of gays and bi in my very large extendef family but I am the first tg. Now I am a female, I love sex as a female and yes its very different.

Sexual attituded atrached to men and women is not social garbage. Most men think of sex every few minutes of their life, including bi and gays. Its part of our species survival trigger. We get turned on and we have an erection and the foucus of the sex drive is our penis. Women have certain times when there is an increased sex drive but we dont think of it every few minutes.The way we feel stimulated as a female its just so very different. Our whole lower body feels the urge, clitoris, vagina and mind.

Yes,  men are visually driven, sounds not so much and not needed. But I have been a male for most of my life so as a female tg the visual side works but now I need the sounds.also.

I also find that female partner attraction require alot of mental involvement. There has to be something more than just good looks and I dont know how to describe, its a sexual attraction and security, I guess.

Finally, orgasms as a female is just out of this world and male orgasms are pale by comparison and it lasts so much longer. The whole body is involved and you just want to scream.

[Kylo]

Lots of women watch porn these days. So they must be visually stimulated as well.

[Cassandra B]

You are confusing two very different things and attributing them as the same thing.

I was a famous playboy and had hundrefs of affairs, 4 marriages and 4 children from 32 to 6 years old. I loved sex as a male with a female. Lots of gays and bi in my very large extendef family but I am the first tg. Now I am a female, I love sex as a female and yes its very different.

No one is arguing that there are not different experiences during sex, I'm a bit confused over this statement.

Sexual attituded atrached to men and women is not social garbage. Most men think of sex every few minutes of their life, including bi and gays. Its part of our species survival trigger. We get turned on and we have an erection and the foucus of the sex drive is our penis. Women have certain times when there is an increased sex drive but we dont think of it every few minutes.The way we feel stimulated as a female its just so very different. Our whole lower body feels the urge, clitoris, vagina and mind.

You are referring to studies done in the early 90's regarding male vs female and thoughts about sex. First, this study is significantly outdated and since been disproven, newer studies published in the journal of sex research show that men on average think about sex about 15 to 19 times per day, (not seven seconds) vs women who think about sex between 10 to 15 times per day. But, taking the difference at face value and concluding that it is because of a biological difference is nearly impossible to quantify; men and women are taught very different attitudes regarding sex based on expected societal rules, girls are to be good and pure, boys can have sex whomever they wish with no consequences. It cannot be credibly argued that societal expectations do not have a direct impact on women's thought patterns, to the contrary societal expectations mold and shape the very core of our mental framework. 

With that said, the female clitoris will experience an erection when aroused just like a man will, the only difference is the size and the extent of the erection.

Your aroused experience is and how you respond is... well how your body responds, I can say with certainty that my body before HRT responded as quickly and in the same ways, as they do now, I have always been very touch-based. We can not use the individual experience to create facts, because experiences are very subjective, case in point your experience vs mine before and HR, I experience differences but not to the degree you state.

Yes,  men are visually driven, sounds not so much and not needed. But I have been a male for most of my life so as a female tg the visual side works but now I need the sounds.also.

I know plenty of men that get turned on at the very sound or smell of something, again, this is a subjective experience that may or may not be indicative of all, this doesn't mean that women are not visually stimulated, in fact the growing number of women who admit to watching porn are a strong indication that women are absolutely visually stimulated; the difference being, society has taught that good girls don't get turned on like that.

I also find that female partner attraction require alot of mental involvement. There has to be something more than just good looks and I dont know how to describe, its a sexual attraction and security, I guess.

Again, this is a personal subjective experience, I find my wife every bit as attractive as I used too, honestly, the smell of a man repulses me now. What isn't subjective (and I admit I might not be understanding what your intented meaning is, but I'm taking it at face value), hormones and gender do not equal sexual attraction to a specific gender. If your statement is true, then there should be no bisexuals, nor should there be any gays or lesbians and if there are it would be 100% due to a hormone imbalance, and that gives credence to the anti-LGBTIQ arguments. 

Finally, orgasms as a female is just out of this world and male orgasms are pale by comparison and it lasts so much longer. The whole body is involved and you just want to scream.

My orgasms are different I can agree to that, but I can't say the intensity is any different because I've always experienced a full body orgasm. With that said, this is a biological level difference and I am not arguing that there are not different experiences while having sex, the rest going back to the OP is societal expectations they are speaking of, not biological.

[warlockmaker]

Studies and books cannot replace.actual experience.  I have no idea of your personal experience, you seem to like to take the academic view, what about your personal experience? I know from my experience and from my very large population sample from my relationships with both male and females that the large majority have those preferences as I stated. There are always exceptions. As a tg female, living 2 lives in one lifetime, we are blessed with that opportunity to experience both.The thing abuut feelings, its hard to describe until you live it.

[MirandaLove]

Thanks for all of the comments.  I agree with the point that any of these attributes can be assigned to either gender and the full spectrum in between.  Yes of course women are visually stimulated at times.  I'm not concerned so much about the rightness or correctness visual stimulus for transwomen.  But I originally left the discussion open-ended without a specific question.

I was more curious about the experience of dysphoria specifically when talking sex with the girls.  I'm fairly confident with my transition and identity in most other areas of my life.

As one person said, I think I am over thinking this and worried about a non issue.  Sounds like my own insecurity and anxiety.  Truth is, I grew up hearing my family refer to transgender women as perverts who just want to peep at women.  So that memory comes up in situations like this, particularly if I'm depressed.

I do enjoy the conversation about our different experiences of our sexuality.  I was always shy in the male locker room, and even just talking about sex with dudes.  Off topic here, but I always associated male sexuality with aggression and fear.  Projection big time!


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[krobinson103]

Finally, orgasms as a female is just out of this world and male orgasms are pale by comparison and it lasts so much longer. The whole body is involved and you just want to scream.

On this I totally agree. Its SOOOO much better there is no comparison. I also found that as a male orgasm is a brief thing. The female version just keeps going for a while and its mostly mental driven. Its not centered in one place but the whole lower body and more sometimes. Also, there is no 'recharge' time needed so you can pretty much keep going till you are tired. I've been shortchanged for half my life!

As for sexual roles etc I know I've always been feminine in that regard and loathed having to do the male thing. I'm bi but I dislike actually using my penis (couldn't now anyway it doesn't work). Its just a place to stimulate and pee from now. It doesn't actually do anything and that makes me happy.

In terms of libido and drive I find as young gay man 20 years ago I was obsessed with the act itself. Now I like it, but its not a need, rather something I can take or leave as the mood hits me. Its better that way. Less distracting.

[Cassandra B]

Studies and books cannot replace.actual experience.  I have no idea of your personal experience, you seem to like to take the academic view, what about your personal experience? I know from my experience and from my very large population sample from my relationships with both male and females that the large majority have those preferences as I stated. There are always exceptions. As a tg female, living 2 lives in one lifetime, we are blessed with that opportunity to experience both.The thing abuut feelings, its hard to describe until you live it.

I'm certainly not trying to replace actual experience for information in books, much of what I've stated is based on personal experience and actual peer reviewed research. The fact remains, personal experiences are very subjective and can not necessarily replace hard data. The statement of "from my large population sample" is subjective and not proof, is it true for those you  have come in to contact with? Certainly, but it can not be argued to be true for the majority of 1.4 million transgender individuals in the US based on that experience, and certainly not the large global population. Let me say it another way, I can certainly accept an individual saying their sexual preferences shifted after hrt, I can accept they know many who have as well, I can't accept a blanket statement that all or even the majority of individuals experience a sexual attraction shift based on the perception from that population; especially when data exsists that contradicts this, because gender absolutely does not equal sexual preference, to argue that point gives credibility to those who believe that sexual preference is biologically based on gender and therefore deviation from "normal sexual preference" is a choice.

Perception is not always accurate, there is a perception that Transgendered individuals are less likely to have long term relationships compared to the CIS population, but recent studies do not support this perception; we are engaged in long term relationships on the same average as CIS individuals.

I do find it interesting that someone will give a higher credibility to their personal experiences while discrediting another's personal experiences as well as peer reviewed research.

[warlockmaker]

Lets just put it simply, personal experiences are the sum of ones existance. We derive our conclusions based on our experiences. In this age when there is so much fake news, that the reliabily of and evaluation on any research, related to feelings, are at best in the realm of fake news "wanna be". Research related to feelings has so nuch contradictory research that in the end personal experience and those of the people we associate with are the most reliable source. My credentials are below:



I have a depth of experience that few can dream to match. First, I have years more experience at 70 years old. Secondly, I was a gregarious playboy from a very large family and had 1000 plus affairs. 4 marriages, 4 children that I am aware of. From one of the wealthiest family in the world, I have more exposure to human nature, both good and bad. As a female, I have a documentry made by vice media, newspapers coverage, TV appearance and speaker appearances. I have a foundation that help tgs in Asia and have talked with thousands over the years. I have also loved as a female and have had my heart broken.

I believe my views have equal or more credibility than research papers.

[Cassandra B]

Lets just put it simply, personal experiences are the sum of ones existance. We derive our conclusions based on our experiences. In this age when there is so much fake news, that the reliabily of and evaluation on any research, related to feelings, are at best in the realm of fake news "wanna be". Research related to feelings has so nuch contradictory research that in the end personal experience and those of the people we associate with are the most reliable source. My credentials are below:



I have a depth of experience that few can dream to match. First, I have years more experience at 70 years old. Secondly, I was a gregarious playboy from a very large family and had 1000 plus affairs. 4 marriages, 4 children that I am aware of. From one of the wealthiest family in the world, I have more exposure to human nature, both good and bad. As a female, I have a documentry made by vice media, newspapers coverage, TV appearance and speaker appearances. I have a foundation that help tgs in Asia and have talked with thousands over the years. I have also loved as a female and have had my heart broken.

I believe my views have equal or more credibility than research papers.

Wow, lol, just wow.

I'll leave off with that, just wow. The blatant issues that detract from any point of legitimacy in what you just said are of a level that renders any further conversation a pointless, unpleasant foray into to what will likely not be civil discourse.

[josie76]

MirandaLove, I can only express my own personal experiences and understanding of my own sexuality.

I am MTF and identify as very much binary female.
From my own experience I see sexuality as sort of divided but related in two parts: visual attraction and instinctual desires.

VISUALLY: I find women's bodies attractive. Our curves, soft skin, attract my attention. The female form is generally pleasing to see. I do not notice men as an attractive visual experience. I have trouble figuring out why other women see a particular man as attractive.

INSTICTUALLY: I crave a man's touch. Just the way a man acts towards a woman, their attentions, their desire for our bodies, their "maleness" for lack of a better word. The idea of being with a man, and yes having a man inside of me definitely lights up part of my brain.
I enjoy being with a woman. I enjoy giving my partner pleasure. I do not possess the instinctual drive to pursue others though. Before transition, acting like a guy sexually was foreign to me. I enjoyed sex. Just filling the role of the typical man was difficult and uncomfortable, never natural for me.

For me there is this disconnect between my instincts and my visual attraction.

Bi transwoman here.  Sometimes when talking about sex or sexuality with others, I have dysphoria come up where I feel like I am speaking "as a man" with male desire and male tendencies.  This is especially true when speaking with straight women. 

For example, I am very visually aroused and a bit of a voyeur.  Naturally I "turn that off" when I'm in private women's spaces.  But there is the general idea that men "tend to be more visual".  So that makes me feel a bit out of place.  But there is the fear that this will be interpreted as a rooster in the hen house.  There is the fear that I will be seen as fake.

Just wanting to share and hear about your experiences and thoughts and feelings.




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[xAmyX]

Women are extremely visual. I have asked many natal females what they liked the most about their partners, and have gotten the answer "his/her looks" too many times to count. I also get a lot of comments from girls mentioning how beautiful my face is, or how cute I look. Those same girls often send me photos of their naked bodies. Don't be too hard on yourself if you enjoy a person for how beautiful their features are. We all share this phenomenon. <3

[xAmyX]

VISUALLY: I find women's bodies attractive. Our curves, soft skin, attract my attention. The female form is generally pleasing to see. I do not notice men as an attractive visual experience. I have trouble figuring out why other women see a particular man as attractive.

This is interesting. I used to feel that way myself, but the more I have dated men, the more I find them visually appealing to me. Now, I can't help but notice how sexy men are when they've got the right facial features and body. It drives me crazy thinking about what's underneath those clothes. 

[SeptagonScars]

I've often thought I might have a rather male sexuality, but as a trans man, that feels empowering for me instead. I'm also very visual. I'm gay but I stare at everyone "that way" whether I'm actually into them or not, but I stare longer and more at other men. I try not to be obvious about it though, and sunglasses is great for hiding my own "male gaze" in public, I guess. I'm not very selective with sex partners at all, them being an adult man is pretty much the only requirement I have. I have no need for an emotional connection to enjoy sex, for me it's mostly just physical. Also I hate cuddling afterwards, then I just want to sleep or smoke. So I seem to fit into a lot of stereotypes. Being on testosterone seems to have amplified all of this for me as well as having increased my sex drive. I feel like I fit in very well in the gay male hookup world with how my sexuality is like, but in romantic relationships it gets messy.

However, I only thrive in calling the way my sexuality is "male" cause it's gender affirming for me. Had it been reverse I likely would have just said it's simply my sexuality and who cares if it's male or female in that sense. Cause it doesn't really matter what you call it.

[SadieBlake]

Miranda, weighing in late on your questions/observations.

Like at least one other woman in this thread, I experienced whole-body orgasms prior to transition, however I had to learn how to get there and before putting a lot of effort into that my orgasms were brief and left a hollow feeling.

HRT changed that further, while still pre-op multiple orgasms became easier and I came to enjoy sex much more while also being far less obsessive about it.

As a post-op female I've yet to orgasm (it's been 14 months since GCS) and any time I get close I can tell when it happens it's going to be a very different experience. I'm beginning to consider adding some testosterone to my HRT to see if that's what I need to get there and yet it's not even o important to me .. I mentioned that I'm less obsessive about sex since transitioning.

Because my partner is only marginally bi, much of my post-op experience has been playing with myself (we're getting busy about every couple of weeks, I'm working on making that more frequent). I think the biggest objective change is my stamina which was  already large has increased hugely, I can now go for several hours and arousal will come and go in waves. The one lesbian identified partner I've been able to hook up with was a wonderful experience.

Thinking back to when I still had testosterone and a <shenis>, I masturbated almost daily, usually for an hour or two and yet I hardly ever felt aroused outside of that time. I'd have said sexual thoughts crossed my mind maybe once a day and when seeing an attractive woman I would certainly register it however 95% of the time it would be envy of their looks, wishing I could look like that or successfully wear a fashion.

Of course I can't change that I was socialized male and I have some learned things that don't go away such as being visually stimulated .. I certainly enjoy porn / erotica and yet today that's different also. Decades ago I was very attracted to "lesbian" porn (the air quotes because what I could find back then was definitely produced for a male audience). However after I realized I am trans, I stopped wanting that, it felt dysphoric. Today I'm able to watch and enjoy women engaging in sex, however the stuff made for male audience is a complete turn off, happily it's no longer hard to find porn made by / for women.

I don't have to turn off attraction in female spaces now because slowly but surely I am becoming socialized lesbian. There's nothing at all more erotic to me now than to be dancing in a venue that's all female and finally being accepted into those places is a deeply wonderful change for me.

[Ryuichi13]

Hello, FTM here.

Even when I was pretending to be female, I was always very visually aroused by a sexy body.  I'm gay, so it was always a male body that did it for me. 

Many, many women are visually aroused by the sight of a good-looking person that they find attractive, be it male, female or both. 

Don't let what you perceive as "normal for women" stop you from whatever turns you on.  Be true to yourself...and to your sexuality. 

And trust me, women are just as bad if not worse than men in the locker room, they are just trained to hide it better when there's men around!   Hopefully, one day you'll find out for yourself how raunchy women can get!

I've also found that I can still masturbate for a couple of hours and have a great, full-body orgasm with no problem.  I can also wake up and start my day, or roll over and go back to sleep depending on if I have something to do that day or not.  So maybe the stereotype is of a "man rolling over and falling asleep," but I am able to decide if that's actually something I may or may not want to do.

I have also discovered that despite the testosterone, I am also still can get turned on by sounds.  I think that things that I found arousing have become even MORE of a turn-on than when I was pre-T.

What a new and wonderful experience my sexuality has become! 

Ryuichi

[xAmyX]

I have to agree with Sadie. Prior to hormone therapy, although I was highly attracted to the female figure as I masturbated to girls through pornographic photos, videos, or what have you; I was highly envious of them, and was a bit disappointed that I didn't have what they had. Even in reality, when I'd have sex with my girlfriend; all I could think about was how pissed I was that I wasn't her. That I wasn't the one bending over and being the person in submission. It plagued my mind. It took me months to overcome that barrier and get used to the idea of sex with her.

In the beginning, she couldn't get me to orgasm at all. I'd of course continue to have sex for her sake, and give her many orgasms in a single session, but I could not get off at all due to how envious I was. I still do envy natal females in ways at times, but the severity of that envy has decreased significantly as I am more happy with myself, and how I look, how I function, how I think.. I've even grown very fond of men over these years, and learned that my love for men can be extremely powerful. Something I would have never thought of myself most of my life.

Ive yet to have a female partner since transitioning male to female, and often question how much I would enjoy doing so. I can imagine I'd enjoy her loving embrace very much, but there would still be an inner conflict going on in my head with anything that doesn't meet my expectations. It's as though I could never truly be free to be, and express myself wholeheartedly with a girl, and there would always be some barriers of limitation. One thing that stunts my motivation for pursuing a female partner. Yes, I'm attracted to them, but I've discovered I am far more free to express my inner self with men, as I have no envy being with them.

It'd take a special kind of woman to keep me content. One whom is dominant. She will be comfortable, confident, and capable of making me hers. To take the lead. To show me that I mean something to her. To fight for me. To take initiative, and to never give up on me. There's no way I can do all of that for her, and since the majority of women seem to want this benefit, and not give it.. I'm sort of in this void where any potential female partner is so far out into the abyss, I'd be drifting light-years through the darkness in search of her with no compass to guide my way. It's been consciously decided that all I can really do is place trails of breadcrumbs in hopes of her finding me.

Meanwhile, to reply to one of all of these gorgeous men hitting me up; I might just go out to dinner with one of them. It's been a while, and I could use some companionship. As for girls? Lots of girls show interest, but none of them show signs of directness. They don't ask me out. They don't ask me to be theirs. Guys do. That's the difference. That's what has changed my sexuality. I like to be chosen. I like to be taken care of. There's no way you'd see me ask 20 girls to go out with me to get rejected by 95% of them and hate myself in the process. To match with 500 girls on a dating app just to go out with 1 or 2, and be ignored or told off by all of the others. I got over that a LONG time ago. It's frustrating, to say the least.

My barrier has grown to the point that when girls flirt with me, they are ruining their chances with me. I get that much more defensive. Messages like this push me away:



Why? Because it's not followed by something among the lines of.. "Will you be mine?" "Will you go out with me?" "I would love to spend time with you and get to know you." or something assertive and direct. I don't like beating around the bush so to speak. It's not my thing. What am I supposed to say.. "Hey girl! Thank you for the wonderful compliment. Would you like to go out with me?" Why do I have to be the one to take initiative? It's a huge turn off. I'm not even remotely turned on right now thinking about it.