For a mtf woman, when is transitioning “over”? Are we always transgender?

[EllenJ2003]

A. We should respect others pronouns, particularly here on the site. I don't identify as fully male or fully female.

B. Google is cheap, and easy to use. I recommend that everyone gives it a try. 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular

Hmmm, interesting, I didn't consider the grammar rule pointed out in the Oxford Dictionary.  My main argument was as a (sorry to say) Grammar Nazi.  I stand corrected.  I guess I just wish a new pronoun like herm, shim, heesh, etc., was used.  But, that's not my call.

Ellen

Ellen

[barbie]

There is a cultural alienation process often referred to as 'Othering', casting the Other in the role of an alien, an interloper to be shunned.  Claiming a gender identity other than Male or Female, such as "Transgender Female", will result in Othering.  Being seen as a noncompliant gender identity will result in Othering.

Yes. It is the same here for Korean language. People label the minorities with any noun they want to call.

Here people are not so much judgmental on gender minorities. I have never heard that anybody was harmed physically because he/she is transgender.

Of course, bullying is ubiquitous here in schools. Last week, it became the biggest news here that a middle school student was bullied and dead by his classmates, simply because his mother is foreigner (Russian) and he looks differently than other boys here. Many people lamented that the justice system here can not punish the murderers because their biological age is less than 14 yrs. But those kids are just the mirrors of the adults here. They just learn and follow what they have seen and heard from their parents and other close adults. The society is cruel in that people 'kiss up and kick down'. This is even the same for relationships between nations. Nevertheless, human species have pursued civilization, sympathy for weak and suffering people.

Here the only group that explicitly shows hate to LGBT people are fundamental, Koreanized Christians. http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180909000245

To my eyes and probably to most non-Christians here, they are just miserable slaves, whom I just avoid in the street. As it is anyway a democratic society, they are allowed to shout curses loudly by using big speakers in the downtown. But they are mentally de facto slaves, just faithfully following what their pastor directed them to do.



When facing me, those slaves even can not argue with me. If I look stronger, they just run away, because they know instinctively who is the weak and who is the strong. Those slaves do predate the weak.

barbie~~

[TonyaW]

Actually I did find help.  I found out (via a copy of Tapestry magazine) about a gender program in the Milwaukee area.  I got in touch with it in the late 90s, and did my entire transition here in Wisconsin (I am a native of the state).  Until early 2003 (when he retired), one of the better known SRS surgeons back in the day (Eugene Schrang) did his surgeries in Theda Clark regional medical center in Neenah, which is 50 miles west of my hometown of Manitowoc (I no longer live in Manitowoc, I live in the Milwaukee area nowadays).  Schrang, did the SRS of one of my friends. 

In short, there are some transition resources in Wisconsin - just not as many as in say Chicago, on the east coast, or the west coast.  They also aren't as visible as they are on some areas.

Ellen

Hey Ellen

Grew up in Brookfield and moved back to Milwaukee area after college. Moved up to Fox Cites about 5 years ago now for job change.  My kids still live in Milwaukee area and I go down there most weekends still.  Late to the transition game so never sought out any trans related resources when I lived there. 

I was disappointed to find I missed Dr Schrang by a good 15 years as Neenah is about my backyard right now.

About alternative pronouns, I found these, which the article I pulled them from said the cards were developed by UWM LGBT resource center in 2011.

  I don't identify as non binary so they don't appeal to me as an option for me.


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[Charlie Nicki]

I will always be trans. No amount of surgery can erase my history (medical, social, emotional, etc...) and that's not a bad thing. Now it doesn't mean I won't be able to blend into society fully as a woman, but my history will definitely never be cis.

[Linde]

A. We should respect others pronouns, particularly here on the site. I don't identify as fully male or fully female.

B. Google is cheap, and easy to use. I recommend that everyone gives it a try. 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular

Sorry that is a poor example, because the singular plural their is used for a group of pople addressed like an individual!

The they for people like I are addressing an individual person, and not a group that is seen as one. 
It is not as if I don't respect their desire to be called they, I just can't understand it, and I do not want to be called like this.  This has nothing to do with respecting or disrespecting, it is just a simple statement that I don't get it and don't want to be addressed like this!

[Devlyn]

Sorry that is a poor example, because the singular plural their is used for a group of pople addressed like an individual!

The they for people like I are addressing an individual person, and not a group that is seen as one. 
It is not as if I don't respect their desire to be called they, I just can't understand it, and I do not want to be called like this.  This has nothing to do with respecting or disrespecting, it is just a simple statement that I don't get it and don't want to be addressed like this!

It's been a source of contention over the years when people are asked to explain their identities or pronouns to someone else's satisfaction or understanding. We don't need to understand things (of a personal nature like this, after all, we're not talking about scientific proofs here) to accept and support them. Lots of people here use they, them, their, ze, hir, and a lot of other identifiers. Sometimes it can seem unsupportive, or even confrontational to say "I don't understand your pronouns/identity".

My post was merely a reminder that we should all tread lightly in regard to a subject like this. 

[Linde]

It's been a source of contention over the years when people are asked to explain their identities or pronouns to someone else's satisfaction or understanding. We don't need to understand things (of a personal nature like this, after all, we're not talking about scientific proofs here) to accept and support them. Lots of people here use they, them, their, ze, hir, and a lot of other identifiers. Sometimes it can seem unsupportive, or even confrontational to say "I don't understand your pronouns/identity".

My post was merely a reminder that we should all tread lightly in regard to a subject like this. 

Are we up to semantics now?
I thought I made it clear that i don't understand it and don't want to be used with me.  Three of us here have the same problem and do not want to be addressed like this.
If another person wants m e to address the person with they, I will do this, but I still wonder why this is the persons desire!

[Devlyn]

Are we up to semantics now?
I thought I made it clear that i don't understand it and don't want to be used with me.  Three of us here have the same problem and do not want to be addressed like this.
If another person wants m e to address the person with they, I will do this, but I still wonder why this is the persons desire!

Your pronouns are she/her/hers, correct? That is all, respectfully, that should matter to you.

We're not "up to" semantics, or anything else. I have explained that I am neither of the binary genders. I'm not overly concerned with the pronouns used on me. But some people are. And they don't need to explain it to you, me, God, or anyone else. They just have to make it clear which pronouns they prefer...no explanation required.

Have a great night.

[Dorit]

I hope no one minds, but I just have to add that I was a student at UW Madison from 1965-69!   The part I would share was that all my gender dysphoria and self hatred blew up in my sophomore year and I had a psychotic breakdown.    I was hospitalized in the psych ward of University Hospitals and also Mendota State across the lake.    When I finally stabilized enough to have therapy, I told the University psychiatrist that I wanted to be a woman, hated my genitals, and hated myself for such thoughts.  Zero understanding, zero help.  Looking back, I could not blame them, that was the dark ages of transgender knowledge.    How I survived  is another story, but I lived long enough to see an monumental change in modern psychology and medicine.   By the way, I never did graduate as I dropped out my senior year to try and save myself.

[Linde]

I hope no one minds, but I just have to add that I was a student at UW Madison from 1965-69!   The part I would share

This means, you lived in god's own country for 4 long years!  Not that bad, enough to learn a thing or two about the winters there!

[EllenJ2003]

Hey Ellen

Grew up in Brookfield and moved back to Milwaukee area after college. Moved up to Fox Cites about 5 years ago now for job change.  My kids still live in Milwaukee area and I go down there most weekends still.  Late to the transition game so never sought out any trans related resources when I lived there. 

I was disappointed to find I missed Dr Schrang by a good 15 years as Neenah is about my backyard right now.

About alternative pronouns, I found these, which the article I pulled them from said the cards were developed by UWM LGBT resource center in 2011.

  I don't identify as non binary so they don't appeal to me as an option for me.


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Hi Tonya,

Yep I grew up in Manitowoc (which BTW, is where TG activist & military veteran Sheri Swoboda is from), moved back there after college, and lived there until 2004 (when I moved here for my present job).  I know where Brookfield is.  I live in the western part of Milwaukee County (2 miles from the county line), just a hop, skip, and a leap from Brookfield (my favorite guitar shop is Brookfield).

I met Schrang a few times (when a couple of my friends had their SRS with him, and when he gave a talk at Gemini Gender Group [which I belonged to at the time] in 2002).

Resource-wise, the program I went through for transition, was the Pathways Counseling Center one.  At the time they were located across from Mayfair Mall in the Associated Bank building.  I checked recently, and learned that they are now in Brookfield on Blue Mound Rd.

Oh yeah!  And, I forgot to mention - I've also seen the pronoun chart you posted.  I'd kind of forgotten about it (oops!).

Ellen

[EllenJ2003]

I hope no one minds, but I just have to add that I was a student at UW Madison from 1965-69!   The part I would share was that all my gender dysphoria and self hatred blew up in my sophomore year and I had a psychotic breakdown.    I was hospitalized in the psych ward of University Hospitals and also Mendota State across the lake.    When I finally stabilized enough to have therapy, I told the University psychiatrist that I wanted to be a woman, hated my genitals, and hated myself for such thoughts.  Zero understanding, zero help.  Looking back, I could not blame them, that was the dark ages of transgender knowledge.    How I survived  is another story, but I lived long enough to see an monumental change in modern psychology and medicine.   By the way, I never did graduate as I dropped out my senior year to try and save myself.

Ooh!  I know where Mendota Mental Health is (I rode past it a few times when I was in college, on my motorcycle).  That is a nasty place!  When I looked into transitioning at the UW in the 80s, things weren't much better that what you experienced.  Other than a few lines in some text books, and an original copy of Lili Elbe's biography (which I read to an extent - you couldn't check it out) at the Medical Library, there was zip.  They had tons of resources for gay and lesbian students, but zip for people who were TS like me (unless you wanted ->-bleeped-<- porn from the porn shops on State Street [ugh!!!]).  I will admit, that it left me pretty messed up in the head, and my grades suffered to the point where I almost wasn't able to graduate.  As it was, even after graduation, I was basically often on autopilot, trying to get through the days, and scraping together money for SRS (due to a lack of engineering jobs, I ended up working in a factory on the production line after college).  I almost killed myself a few times before I started transitioning (via a one way swim in Lake Michigan).  I actually got hit by a car when I was out for a run, and while people said that I was lucky to survive to experience, I often felt at the time that I was actually unlucky since I survived it.

Congratulations on surviving the whole experience.   
Ellen
Ellen

[EllenJ2003]

This means, you lived in god's own country for 4 long years!  Not that bad, enough to learn a thing or two about the winters there!

Such is life on the frozen tundra of Wisconsin!   

Ellen

[Linde]

Such is life on the frozen tundra of Wisconsin!   

Ellen

You girls lived at the warm side of the state, I lived all the way north on I94 in the area that is known as Minnesconsin, right next to Minnesnowta (where I earned my pennies).

[KimOct]

A. We should respect others pronouns, particularly here on the site. I don't identify as fully male or fully female.

B. Google is cheap, and easy to use. I recommend that everyone gives it a try. 

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/grammar/using-they-and-them-in-the-singular

I fully agree that we should respect everyone including gender NB.  I did look at the link Devlyn included and I am still confused and I have a B.A. in Journalism  I hope in the near future some replacement words are created by someone inventive that can replace 'they' etc. just because of the confusion. 

But when in doubt it is always best to ask someone their preference.  Someone just did it to me last night and I appreciated it.  I am Binary but an openly transwoman and the guy clocked me right away and was uninformed but at least polite enough to ask my preference.  Being polite will get you everywhere.

[Linde]

But when in doubt it is always best to ask someone their preference.  Someone just did it to me last night and I appreciated it.  I am Binary but an openly transwoman and the guy clocked me right away and was uninformed but at least polite enough to ask my preference.  Being polite will get you everywhere.

And this is the thing, one should be polite an ask.
As I said, my intersex condition has at least two sexes sharing my body (and it seems that I might have even more uff going on), and I am pretty much gender fluid, and have no dysphoria whether I present as male or female (in fact I am currently contemplating if I should go shopping as a male or a female, I prefer female, but it is easier to get ready as a male), or as an androgynous person.  I prefer to go as a woman, because I feel most comfortable in this roll.  But I would feel kind of funny, if somebody would want to address me with "they".  Whatever roll I am presenting in, I prefer to be addressed in  the gender specific terms of the gender I am displaying.

[Devlyn]

And this is the thing, one should be polite an ask.
As I said, my intersex condition has at least two sexes sharing my body (and it seems that I might have even more uff going on), and I am pretty much gender fluid, and have no dysphoria whether I present as male or female (in fact I am currently contemplating if I should go shopping as a male or a female, I prefer female, but it is easier to get ready as a male), or as an androgynous person.  I prefer to go as a woman, because I feel most comfortable in this roll.  But I would feel kind of funny, if somebody would want to address me with "they".  Whatever roll I am presenting in, I prefer to be addressed in  the gender specific terms of the gender I am displaying.

That's exactly how someone who doesn't identify with either gender binary, or both, or no gender at all, feels about being addressed as a specific gender. See.... simple. 

[Linde]

That's exactly how someone who doesn't identify with either gender binary, or both, or no gender at all, feels about being addressed as a specific gender. See.... simple. 

I have the feeling that we are talking passt each other.  I do not have, and never had, any clear gender identity!  But because I am a member of society, I have to somewhat follow the conventions and have to somewhat present in any of the binary genders. Or I can present androgynous , but even this leans to one or the other gender.
I, personally, can be as gender fluid, for as long as I want, I can go now as a man, and an hour later as a woman, it does not bother me at all, I have no dysphoria about any of these rolls!  But whatever presentation I am in, I prefer to be addressed with the fitting pronomens!  Because my bodies biology seems to indicate that I am more female than male (genome analysis indicated that I have a typical post menopausal female genome), I prefer the female presentation, but yet, my body is still partly male, and will always be that way!
I would feel very uncomfortable and confused, if somebody would address me with they!  Because no matter how many gender personalities I harbor, to the outside world I am still a single individual, and not a plurality!

If a person would prefer to be addressed with thy, it is their thing, but I would like to understand why they want this, because like I, they present still as a single individual, and not as several persons!
It is not that I would not respect their wish, but because of an almost academic interests, I would like to know why they have this wish?

[Rayna]

They/their have a long history in English, going back at least to Shakespeare in the 16th century, as I found from following Devlyn's link. We just "get" it as referring to a singular person without the same friction when trying to understand some of these newly minted terms. So that may be why some nonbinary people prefer it.

For myself, as nonbinary I prefer the pronouns that go with my current presentation, and if I'm andro and nobody can figure me out, then I'll accept anything.

I've so far kept the original spelling of my name as well and I like that when pronounced, it is a dual-gendered name. So it goes either way. Sometimes people write Randi and that's OK too.
Randy

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[jenpa]

I know this is going to seem flipping crazy, but privately I've never considered myself transgender, although I've fully embraced the community. I can't remember a time in my life when I ever accepted the assigned male at birth label. Now, I played that role, but I always saw it as just that, acting. I've always been female in appearance, didn't go through male puberty, no body hair or beard, and grew small breasts instead. As far as I'm concerned, I was born with a small birth defect, which I will be getting corrected soon. I may be in a minority within our community, and I'm not suggesting it's inaccurate for others to use it, but how can the prefix "trans" accurately apply when my gender has always been female? I just can't accept that. Has anyone else ever felt this way?

You're either trans or cis. Which is it? You have to face reality.