'Any transgender, on plain reading of statute, could obtain entry to female rest

[Caroline]

i dont need the andra-alison love brigade coming after me for my opinion...
Androgynes want to be recognised, want to be differnet, campaign for your own restroom... in the uk, theres LOADS of non asigned restrooms... if i was neither sex, id feel uncomfortable in both...

Alison, if your non binary, ZOMG, ur using a binary restroom, CONFORMIN TO SOCIETYS IDEAS ABOUT YOUR BODY !!!!!!!!!
R >

Perhaps I feel fairly comfortable in both given that gender is a rather arbitrary construct (in my opinion).  I just prefer to use whichever one is less likely to get me raped in (considering I am youngish, attractive and look like an unpassable f2m half the time).

Also, it's not for YOU to tell people when and where they are supposed to make a stand about something.    Believing in something doesn't mean you have to make a point about it every single second of your life. 

"want to be different"  Oh like binary transsexuals do?   

[Rachael]

what does a binary identified transexual want to be different from dearest andra? last time i checked, oh, gosh, we fitted into society and generally got on with things...

and iirc, i didnt tell your 'partner' not to use it, i said if they dont id as female, dont use it.
Dual standards huh? CDs WANT to use the womens room, but pretty much everyone says they shoudlnt. they want to, an androgyne 'wants' to.... whats the difference my dearest font of  knowlage?
R >

[Jordan]

Sorry to chime in on you ladies, but I think if your not TS, then use your biological bathroom.

I mean there is some law regarding this. isnt there?

If your TS then use the bathroom of the gender you identify with.

[Caroline]

Sorry to chime in on you ladies, but I think if your not TS, then use your biological bathroom.

I mean there is some law regarding this. isnt there?

If your TS then use the bathroom of the gender you identify with.

Amusingly over here in the UK, SRS is regarded as being "gender reassignment surgery" which puts me in an interesting position when it comes to being able to use the mens.  Were I not going down the transition/surgery route I'd be happy to use the mens.

[Shana A]

Wearing my mod hat for a moment.

Please keep discussion on this thread about the news article... This is starting to veer into another one of those "who among us is or isn't allowed in the bathroom" threads. I'd rather not have to lock it. And remember, no personal attacks.

thanks!

y2g

[NicholeW.]

Wearing my mod hat for a moment.

Please keep discussion on this thread about the news article... This is starting to veer into another one of those "who among us is or isn't allowed in the bathroom" threads. I'd rather not have to lock it. And remember, no personal attacks.

thanks!

y2g

I concur. Pretty much we know one another's individual positions on these things. And have read them many times. This thread has NOT been about who is valid and why. No need to take it there, please. One's existence validates them. No one's existence invalidates another's existence.

The 'bathroom' issue whether it comes from left, right or center is invariably a sidetrack from whatever the 'real' issue is. To say one is 'uncomfortable' is merely a signal that I don't like what I am reading. I have no idea who is sitting, or hovering, next to me in a bathroom.

OTH, the argument in Maryland goes way past whether or not someone is in a bathroom and how that matters. The bathroom comes into it in order to provoke fear, outrage and uneasy feelings in order to gain a POLITICAL advantage. Not a moral one, nor a gender one.

Please be nice.

Nichole

[Rachael]

true, its once more, making transpeople out to be weirdos who choose a different bathroom or changing room as the mood takes them and are there to perv on naked wiminz and eat children...
Scaremongering works sadly
R

[Caroline]

what does a binary identified transexual want to be different from dearest andra? last time i checked, oh, gosh, we fitted into society and generally got on with things...

Point well missed.  I large portion of Androgyne people HATE the fact that being out as what they really are means they can't blend in (particularly those who experience body dysphoria).  Stating that they all WANT to be different couldn't be further from the truth. 

[Alison]

Nichole,
I was arguing with Alison's stance
that seems to say that gender neutral
rooms are a pipe dream and thus
all T's should fight for access to women's rooms.

As I said, in the case of most CD's, the issue
is not defensible. They are men who IDENTIFY as MEN
most are hetero, why on earth would any women
tolerate them in there.

For a good portion of TS's,
you can get a carry letter if you go to a therapist and that's enough.
The issue in this case would be GID sufferers outside
the medical system who don't carry such letters.
I agree they need to pee too. And again, fighting
for their access will be much harder than putting
our hat in the ring and pushing for gender neutral
or family rooms.

Androgyne's will go in their assigned birth sex restroom
since for them, its either. So, no issue.

Are you sure about gender neutral bathroom Nichole.
I've been in many malls on the east coast and they
do have family/handicaped restrooms right off the
corridor. Maybe people feel weird about using a
restroom marked for handicaped, but they are
rarely used and if someone needs to use them,
you'd be out soon anyway.

Keira -

I think you misunderstood me, but I'm a bit confused at what you mean by: "and thus
all T's should fight for access to women's rooms."   -- If you mean that all transsexual women should fight access for women's rooms, damn skippy they should and I'll be fighting alongside you.  However when a MtF or IS tells me that I am -not- a woman therefore I -shouldn't- be in the women's rooms when there is no other option for me here.  Frankly I get a little cheesed off.

In the large malls in the metroplex Albany NY area have handicapped and family restrooms, however, I live in the mountains, most of the businesses here have two restrooms, men and women.  Due to the way my body looks I am -much- safer going into the women's room, I am much more comfortable there.  If you're telling me that I need to only shop at places that offer neutral bathrooms, then frankly thats when I tell you too bad.  I'm not driving 45+ minutes each way to get to a city big enough where thats an option.  And the reason why is because *I* am comfortable using the womens room.

i dont need the andra-alison love brigade coming after me for my opinion...
Androgynes want to be recognised, want to be differnet, campaign for your own restroom... in the uk, theres LOADS of non asigned restrooms... if i was neither sex, id feel uncomfortable in both...

Alison, if your non binary, ZOMG, ur using a binary restroom, CONFORMIN TO SOCIETYS IDEAS ABOUT YOUR BODY !!!!!!!!!
R >

I never said I wanted special treatment Rachael.  What I said was I was most comfortable using the restroom for my birth assigned sex, and if you have an issue with it, it is -your- problem, not mine.  I'm not "neither sex" .. my SEX is female, -you- my dear have said you're intersexed, Why aren't you using the intersexed restroom?  My guess is that it's because you're more comfortable in the womens room.  And that's A-OK with me.

what does a binary identified transexual want to be different from dearest andra? last time i checked, oh, gosh, we fitted into society and generally got on with things...

and iirc, i didnt tell your 'partner' not to use it, i said if they dont id as female, dont use it.
Dual standards huh? CDs WANT to use the womens room, but pretty much everyone says they shoudlnt. they want to, an androgyne 'wants' to.... whats the difference my dearest font of  knowlage?
R >

Wait, three posts ago you were intersexed, now you're a transsexual again... Keep on the same page for me?

The difference for me is my birth sex is female.  I LOOK like a female, I PASS as a female.  I don't want to be different, I just want to take a damn leak. . just like everyone else...

[Rachael]

tbh i dont know which to use... *shrugs* I2f? both to 1? ive gone through exactly the same thing as all m2fs, so i guess its TS? i dunno, whatever, point is, i identify as female, you said you didnt.
im actually quite confused , you claim to be neither gender, or both, or whaever bloody combination you andrognyes can think up, cry for special neutral places, then use random restrooms...
sure, female bodied, fine, if i saw you in a restroom how the hell do i know how you identify? im just going off what you say love.

Andra: point not well missed, you want to break the binary, you CANNOT be normal, as normal = binary gender... sorry, but it is. right or wrong, that is 'normal'
want to be both, neither, either intermitently? not normal by its definition. does abnormal = wrong? god no, but im sorry, i wont retract something i say when its simply fact. Binary transsexuals can blend, in current society, non binary folk cant, thats just the way it is.
R >

[lady amarant]

Binary transsexuals can blend, in current society, non binary folk cant, thats just the way it is.

Yeah, I suppose you've got a point - which is exactly why we should be fighting to break that definition of normal! Society arbitrarily defines normal. We should be looking to nature and science instead of herd mentality and that in-born fear of change and variation.

Viva la Revolu'cion! 

Hmmmm. I'm so violent tonight! What is wrong with me?!   > > > > >

[Rachael]

i dunno, i personally like the status quo...
R >

[Caroline]

tbh i dont know which to use... *shrugs* I2f? both to 1? ive gone through exactly the same thing as all m2fs, so i guess its TS? i dunno, whatever, point is, i identify as female, you said you didnt.
im actually quite confused , you claim to be neither gender, or both, or whaever bloody combination you andrognyes can think up, cry for special neutral places, then use random restrooms...
sure, female bodied, fine, if i saw you in a restroom how the hell do i know how you identify? im just going off what you say love.

I don't want special places, I am happy with there being two sets of toilets for able bodied people.  If YOU have a problem with that and feel the need to restrict who can use existing facilities, leaving a third group who don't have a suitable toilet in YOUR opinion, YOU campaign for it.

Andra: point not well missed, you want to break the binary, you CANNOT be normal, as normal = binary gender... sorry, but it is. right or wrong, that is 'normal'

Further proof that you missed what MY point was (clue: you can't decide to tell me what I meant, it doesn't work like that).  I was simply pointing out that BEING a gender that doesn't match your birth sex is not a choice.  m2fs and f2ms ARE different, their gender is indeed normal but other aspects of their lives definitely aren't.  They may be able to blend in after transition, but that's not the point.

[Jordan]

Seriously though arent andra, allison, and racheal all saying the same thing???

Alison, If you were born a female, whats the problem you see with using the womans restroom, is it cause you present as a man, or andro?? Because even if you did, who would care or would legally do anything???


What are you two debating about I dont really get it..

Although Raceal, I agree as I often do with your points regarding this subject...

[Alison]

you claim to be neither gender, or both, or whaever bloody combination you andrognyes can think up, cry for special neutral places, then use random restrooms...

"Whatever bloody combination you androgynes can think up"   Wow Rachael, you went above and beyond my regular expectation for ignorance.  Just FYI:  I didn't "think up" my gender.  No more then you did.  Ok?

Alison, If you were born a female, whats the problem you see with using the womans restroom, is it cause you present as a man, or andro?? Because even if you did, who would care or would legally do anything???

Mara-  Thats the thing, I don't mind using the women's restroom at all, however Rachael said earlier in this thread:

the law seems too open....

trans men should not use the womens facilities, androgynes should use a neutral facility. you want equality? fine, but the womens facilities are for women only, end of in my opinion...
R >

Which I took offense to, as I am female sexed androgyne who does NOT plan on having any surgeries, and frankly I use the women's rooms, and thats totally fine with me.  If Rachael doesn't want to pee next to an androgyne in the next stall, it's her problem, not mine.

[SarahFaceDoom]

the law seems too open....

trans men should not use the womens facilities, androgynes should use a neutral facility. you want equality? fine, but the womens facilities are for women only, end of in my opinion...
R >

My office only has two bathrooms and rather than make one male, one female, they are gender neautral.  So now instead of one bathroom a piece.  We have two bathrooms.

The gender segmentation of bathrooms is dumb.  I think they should just do rows of single occupancy bathrooms, and they can be used by anyone. 

It's dumb because guys don't really use the bathroom for that much, and aren't in there very long.  So usually there's not a line there.  But there's always going to be a line into the women's restroom.  Make them gender neutral and less women have to stand in line.

[lady amarant]

My office only has two bathrooms and rather than make one male, one female, they are gender neautral.  So now instead of one bathroom a piece.  We have two bathrooms.

The gender segmentation of bathrooms is dumb.  I think they should just do rows of single occupancy bathrooms, and they can be used by anyone. 

It's dumb because guys don't really use the bathroom for that much, and aren't in there very long.  So usually there's not a line there.  But there's always going to be a line into the women's restroom.  Make them gender neutral and less women have to stand in line.

That makes most sense in my opinion as well.

[Alison]

My office only has two bathrooms and rather than make one male, one female, they are gender neautral.  So now instead of one bathroom a piece.  We have two bathrooms.

The gender segmentation of bathrooms is dumb.  I think they should just do rows of single occupancy bathrooms, and they can be used by anyone. 

It's dumb because guys don't really use the bathroom for that much, and aren't in there very long.  So usually there's not a line there.  But there's always going to be a line into the women's restroom.  Make them gender neutral and less women have to stand in line.

I agree with this as well... slightly more space intrusive but a much better option....

[Emerald]

tbh i dont know which to use... *shrugs* I2f? both to 1? ive gone through exactly the same thing as all m2fs, so i guess its TS? i dunno, whatever, point is, i identify as female, you said you didnt.
im actually quite confused , you claim to be neither gender, or both, or whaever bloody combination you andrognyes can think up, cry for special neutral places, then use random restrooms...
sure, female bodied, fine, if i saw you in a restroom how the hell do i know how you identify? im just going off what you say love.
R >

Rachael, it seems you would not be considered Transsexual if you were born Intersex.
Criteria of the DSM-IV states for a diagnosis of GID:
"The individual must not have a concurrent physical intersex condition"
The ICD-10 states Transsexualism has the following criteria:
"The disorder is not a symptom of another mental disorder or a chromosomal abnormality."

Androgynes aren't neither sex Rachael, Androgynes are neither gender. Neutrois desire to be neither sex or eliminate their body's sex markers. Most Androgynes look like normal men and women. The observable differences are that we don't act ultra-feminine or uber-macho and tend to wear clothing that is gender-neutral. Androgynes are generally practical people, neither particularly masculine nor feminine in behaviour... no matter what their natal sex may be. On the flip side, Bigender and Gender Fluid people move back and forth between distinctive masculine and feminine self-perceptions and behaviours.

As a GG, I would be trespassing in the mens room so I use the ladies room. The separation of the biological sexes is the original motivation for the Men/Women signs on the doors. And yes, I would alert security if an adult stranger with a penis entered the womans restroom. What biological female wouldn't? However, if the person with a penis can convince security it's perfectly ok for them to use the ladies room then it's ok by me too.

I doubt the proposed new law will stand as written. Cisgender women won't tolerate a male (aka: person with a penis) in a sex segregated area. I think the biological reality will continue to trump gender identity in restrooms and locker rooms.

-Emerald 

[Rachael]

yeah, probably. it all bogs down to men and women with society, they dont care what type of trans you are.....

and anyway, i disagree with the DSM definition, as there must be some cause of trans....
plus its american, where you still refer to it as a mental illness...

in the uk its a medical condition, and all medical conditions have a biological root... Yeah, so im genetically intersexed, so ive got a more screwed up body than pete burns? so? i identify as a woman, not intersexed, or transsexual, just a woman, im transitioning, and 99.99% of society would see a transsexual if they knew... ive transitioned from a male outer body, to a female one, so whats not m2f? it wasnt like i was neither, i was surgically corrected to male, and raised male, whats a transsexual? whats male? i had a penis, i still do, i want rid, i suffer gender dysphoria, a phsychiatrist diagnosed me as a clear primary transsexual individual, to quote my report i got from my gp...i dont LIKE the ts label, but after some runins with folk here, they refuse to accept my opinion, as im 'not a propper m2f' my choice of words, your choice to be bothered by it.
R >