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A list of TS traits from my therapist

Started by Just Mandy, March 24, 2008, 03:41:35 PM

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buttercup

Quote from: Rachael on March 25, 2008, 10:18:41 PM
The majority of that list i fear is what transsexuals feel they have to be, to get treated.... ie, flowery girly girls...its by no means a 'grouping' or even a study... its that therapists opinions...

Personally i think theres more intollerance in the trans community than out of it !


and what the HELL does being anti war have to do with gender?
R >:D

Why take offense to some questionaire?  Its not a sorting hat.  Be o.k with who you are, no piece of paper is going to do that.  Why do you want to be the same as everyone else?  I thought you liked being an individual, not a number.  Ummm, intolerance, yes well, as my memory serves me you can be a bit intolerant yourself, don't you think?

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cindybc

I doubt it. but then, who knows where they collect their information, there is a lot of misinformation out there too. One has to find their own tune, then dance by it when it feels right.  Well then where do the therapists get their education about Transfolks if they have not experienced what what being transsexual themselves? Did they have the benefit of TS instructors? Or do they learn by working with Transfolks? I realise that there are more Trans folks that have followed a career as therapists and shrinks themselves, but still there are many out there that are not. I have been quite impressed how transfolks work together here with, transfolks, for transfolks. Eh, if this post annoys anyone just say so, and I'll delete it.

Cindy
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Lucy

I think this is the first time I have read this list and all but one are apropriate to me.

I found that although most TG people are of above intelagence, they struggle with the english language and may have mild dyslexia. This is my take on the situation what do you think.
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Rachael

Quote from: buttercup on March 25, 2008, 11:15:14 PM
Quote from: Rachael on March 25, 2008, 10:18:41 PM
The majority of that list i fear is what transsexuals feel they have to be, to get treated.... ie, flowery girly girls...its by no means a 'grouping' or even a study... its that therapists opinions...

Personally i think theres more intollerance in the trans community than out of it !


and what the HELL does being anti war have to do with gender?
R >:D

Why take offense to some questionaire?  Its not a sorting hat.  Be o.k with who you are, no piece of paper is going to do that.  Why do you want to be the same as everyone else?  I thought you liked being an individual, not a number.  Ummm, intolerance, yes well, as my memory serves me you can be a bit intolerant yourself, don't you think?


Point is, its NOT a questionare... its some therapist deciding traits that define a transsexual person :P
Me intollerant? i think you're mistaking lack of blind acceptance, for intollerance ;)
Tekla: true, but to suggest that transsexuals are as a group, anti war, is to suggest that women, as a group are... not all are...
and the anti death penalty....

What i find ironic, is the number who claim to be anti war, anti death, yet the numbers of gun owners on this board alone....
shocking really...
R >:D
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lady amarant

Quote from: Rachael on March 25, 2008, 10:18:41 PM
The majority of that list i fear is what transsexuals feel they have to be, to get treated.... ie, flowery girly girls...its by no means a 'grouping' or even a study... its that therapists opinions...

Frankly Rachel, this is just the way I am. I oppose war and the death penalty because it's wrong. I would like to think I would still feel that way were I not T, but frankly, it's something I am proud of. As for the other traits, yeah, the majority of them describe me to a T, pardon the pun, but equally there are many other characteristics to me. I like dance and martial arts and parkour. I enjoy classical music, metal and industrial. I like moonlit walks anywhere BUT on the beach. (I dislike the beach.  ;D)

The fact is that most of the characteristics described simply make biological and psychological sense. We WOULD generally have a better grasp on language and the like than on more technical and abstract things because our brains are at least partially female. Likewise, the higher intelligence makes sense due to the fact that our male and female aspects of thinking are likely more integrated. We WOULD have a general disdain for appearance and health because of dysphoria. Shutting down emotionally makes sense, to me anyway, in light of the fact that I was a very emotional child, and when I kept being told that that isn't the way a boy is supposed to act, I eventually internalised it. The same can be said for most of the other traits mentioned.

Just because you are lucky enough not to fit this mould, that does not mean that the entire list is invalid. It simply means that you were maybe stronger and more able to deal with alot of this crap than I was.
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Berliegh

Quote from: Andra on March 25, 2008, 05:01:52 PM
A therapist giving out a list like that is rather shocking in my opinion.  It simply demonstrates and perpetuates transsexuals presenting a 'standard' list of symptoms and circumstances in order to get treatment.  It's stupid because this lack of REAL honest communication between patients and therapist doesn't help either party. 

That's exactely it Andra...in a nutshell....you nailed it..

Every individual is different and has different issue's.....it's like the Therapist is saying every Transsexual has the same interests and hang ups......what total nonsense..
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lady amarant

Quote from: Berliegh on March 26, 2008, 06:12:41 AM
Every individual is different and has different issue's.....it's like the Therapist is saying every Transsexual has the same interests and hang ups......what total nonsense..

Nobody is disputing that, but one cannot deny that common maladies usually have common symptoms. Nobody is saying these characteristics HAVE to be encountered for one to be TS. All it is saying that they are fairly common. The problem comes in when people start using these sorts of lists as a "sorting hat", and unfortunately yes, some therapists AND some TS people do that, but that does not make the list invalid, only their use of it.

All I know is that, if my teachers or parents had had a list like this when I was a teen, I might've been saved a lot of heartache. Not for them to box me in, but for them to have said: "This is a possibility, lets explore it along with everything else."
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Rachael

Those arnt symptoms... or traits...
thier observations of one person trying to box something...

you know what?

that list fits NON transpeople about as well as it fits trans people....

take the trans word away.
show that list to a non trans person, see how relevant it is to them....



its a list of human traits.
R >:D
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Berliegh

Quote from: Rachael on March 26, 2008, 07:45:04 AM
Those arnt symptoms... or traits...
thier observations of one person trying to box something...

you know what?

that list fits NON transpeople about as well as it fits trans people....

take the trans word away.
show that list to a non trans person, see how relevant it is to them....



its a list of human traits.
R >:D

I agree and you nailed it even better Rachael....
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Lisbeth

Quote from: AlwaysAmanda on March 24, 2008, 03:41:35 PM
We have a primarily cope with the condition by shutting down all emotions
We have an inability to discuss deep feelings with others
We are very insecure
We have very few, if any, close friends, prefers to spend time alone
We exhibit extreme shyness at times
We have a hatred of (and inattention to) our appearance
We avoid pictures and videos of ourselves
We often have inattention to health issues
We have extreme modesty about our sexuality and partial and full nudity
We often take on dangerous jobs or activities
We often have well above average intelligence
We immerse ourselves in activities or jobs that require intense concentration and highly technical vocations.
We are extremely competitive or extremely non-competitive with no middle ground
We are very imaginative daydreamers
We display self destructive behavior
We possess a tolerance for others, very unlikely to be racist, homophobic etc.
We are anti-war and anti death penalty
We have the need for more than usual privacy in our  lives
We are very unlikely to fight or have a physical confrontation
We gave deep seated hatred of authority
We have on and off battles with clinical depression
We are easily able to place people by the sounds of their voice
We are able to easily read peoples emotions
We excel in reading and writing at an early age but have difficulty with mathematics
We often have suicidal thoughts, plans or attempts

Stereotypes.  Less than half the list fits me, and the same ones would apply to millions of non-transgendered people.  Be wary of absolute statements like, "We have deep seated hatred of authority."  Ya?  Maybe some of us do.  So would a random selection of people who grew up in the 1960's.
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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lady amarant

I am making an observation in general here, which is not intended as a response to any one post one here, but to illustrate a point:

Stereotypes become stereotypes because they are often true. Just because a stereotype exists though, does not mean that it is true for everybody within the group. EVERYTHING works on a bell curve, where a big section of the group will be near the middle of any particular range of results, with fewer and fewer people out towards the edges. Due to my absolutely screwed up nature, I fall on the one end of the spectrum, while people who do not conform to the list fall towards the other end of the spectrum.

This is how science works folks, for better or worse. You make a series of observations, and then you start drawing conclusions and making predictions. Your model might be incomplete, causing some conclusions to be wrong, but that simply means your model is incomplete, not necessarily wrong. (Though obviously, it might well be)
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Constance

Quote from: Lisbeth on March 26, 2008, 08:26:06 AM
"We have deep seated hatred of authority."  Ya?  Maybe some of us do.  So would a random selection of people who grew up in the 1960's.
The same goes for those of us who grew up in the 1980's.  ;)


Posted on: March 26, 2008, 07:02:42 AM
Quote from: lady amarant on March 26, 2008, 08:42:10 AM
I am making an observation in general here, which is not intended as a response to any one post one here, but to illustrate a point:

Stereotypes become stereotypes because they are often true. Just because a stereotype exists though, does not mean that it is true for everybody within the group. EVERYTHING works on a bell curve, where a big section of the group will be near the middle of any particular range of results, with fewer and fewer people out towards the edges. Due to my absolutely screwed up nature, I fall on the one end of the spectrum, while people who do not conform to the list fall towards the other end of the spectrum.

This is how science works folks, for better or worse. You make a series of observations, and then you start drawing conclusions and making predictions. Your model might be incomplete, causing some conclusions to be wrong, but that simply means your model is incomplete, not necessarily wrong. (Though obviously, it might well be)
I agree with most of this.

But, I'd have to say that stereotypes are based more on observation than on truth. And, observation depends largely on one's point of view. So, it might be more accurate (to me) to say "Stereotypes become stereotypes because" of the points of view of the apparent majority of observers.

And as others have pointed out, these traits are not unique to transsexuals. That's what I was trying to say when I indicated that some of these "traits" can be applied to me, and I'm "just" an androgyne, not TG or TS.

lady amarant

Quote from: Shades O'Grey on March 26, 2008, 09:26:28 AM
Quote from: Lisbeth on March 26, 2008, 08:26:06 AM
"We have deep seated hatred of authority."  Ya?  Maybe some of us do.  So would a random selection of people who grew up in the 1960's.
The same goes for those of us who grew up in the 1980's.  ;)
Not to mention the 90's. The hippies left quite a legacy. Yay for flower power!!!


Quote
But, I'd have to say that stereotypes are based more on observation than on truth. And, observation depends largely on one's point of view. So, it might be more accurate (to me) to say "Stereotypes become stereotypes because" of the points of view of the apparent majority of observers.
Ah, but what is truth. Relativistically, EVERYTHING is dependant on your POV, and things only pop into reality when we observe them, if you believe a quantum physicist. ;)

Quote
And as others have pointed out, these traits are not unique to transsexuals. That's what I was trying to say when I indicated that some of these "traits" can be applied to me, and I'm "just" an androgyne, not TG or TS.
Oh, I absolutely agree. Just because me being TS is totally screwed up, doesn't mean you can't be too!  ;)  It is a useful tool though, if somebody does present these sorts of traits, for an observer to say: "Hmmmm, TS might be one of the many possiblities of what might be going on here."
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Just Mandy

Quote from: beth on March 26, 2008, 01:33:54 AM
Did your therapist give any credit to Susan's?   ;)

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,272.msg1260.html#msg1260

No, LOL... but it sounds like she needs to :)

Posted on: March 26, 2008, 09:22:03 AM
I don't check in for a little while and look what happens :)

QuoteAll I know is that, if my teachers or parents had had a list like this when I was a teen, I might've been saved a lot of heartache. Not for them to box me in, but for them to have said: "This is a possibility, lets explore it along with everything else."

I agree 200%. All I know is most (but not all) describe me and reading the list made me see and think about a lot of things about
my life and personality. Probably more than anything that I've read about GID. If they are just human traits then so be it but I
happen to be TS and they fit. I apologize if the list rattled some nerves of people that don't share many of the traits, but it's
just a list. You are what you are and just because you are unique and do not have any of the traits does not make you any less
TS. Just because I have many of the traits does not make me more TS. It's just a list to make you think. It may be a bad list,
it may be a stereotypical list, but it's just a list. 

Something sleeps deep within us
hidden and growing until we awaken as ourselves.
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cindybc

Hi Lady Amarant
QuoteAh, but what is truth. Relativistically, EVERYTHING is dependant on your POV, and things only pop into reality when we observe them, if you believe a quantum physicist

Yep that is quite true. I say I'll see it when I believe it, not believe it when I see it. Well the later is what society tries to stereotype us with. Well I was raised before they came out with stereos and I didn't know how to type. I was my own stripe of cat and curiosity got me into some very odd predicaments. Now we are all Ike that to a lesser or greater degree, the human race are a curious lot. Ain't nothing wrong with that it is curiosity that has lead us to many discoveries. You watch something long enough you will figure out it's nature. You see, I am one of those old flower children.

As far as that list goes as to what applies to who will not be the same in all cases but it is a good enough frame of reference to work by at this time, until we can come up with a better measuring stick. A serious researcher has to have a starting point somewhere on the spectrum of the many different characteristics and quirks that make up humanity. I look at the list in above posts and I can see where I could Identify with a good majority of the descriptions of what is supposed to be the characteristics of a transperson. But many of those characteristics I have already dealt and worked through but some still remains for me to exlore. But no mater how far one has walked the path it is advisable to never forget from when you came, in other words your humble beginingd, so that you may at some future time be able to eliminated the way for another wh follows behind.

A ruler is a good piece of equipment as we have come up with thus far for measuring distance but only to limited areas, beyond that it remains quantifiable and no longer possible to measure with the ruler.

Cindy   
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beth

               Most of this list was originally compiled here on Susan's. I posted the original thread link above that had many of the characteristics but there was another thread where some of the members here added many of the additional traits.  The original post and comments were lost when this site crashed several years ago.


https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,272.msg1260.html#msg1260



                This list was only regarding "unmittigated transsexuals"  not those that have transitioned. It is a list of traits that some transsexuals may share after years of GID. It is not a list of traits that a 20 year old transsexual who has transitioned at 19 would likely have.


                 If you go back and read the thread from 3 years ago you will see that enough transsexuals identified with the list to make it more than a list of stereotypes.  It is very interesting to note the differences in the attitudes from 3 years ago to the present.

beth
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Just Mandy

QuoteIf you go back and read the thread from 3 years ago you will see that enough transsexuals identified with the list to make it more than a list of stereotypes.  It is very interesting to note the differences in the attitudes from 3 years ago to the present.

beth

What do you attribute that change to? Just a different crowd here now?

Something sleeps deep within us
hidden and growing until we awaken as ourselves.
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tekla

The trouble with any such list is that in an effort to be inclusive (asking questions that anyone could answer, yes or no style) they become far less than exclusive in any predictive ability.  Many of the words are loaded, others are excursions in relativity.  Like, "well above average intelligence" - is that over the 50% mark, or over the 80% mark, and how determined, SAT scores, Stanford-Binet, GPA, life accomplishment?  And in what field, is parsing Jane Austin more important, or less important than mechanical aptitude?  If one scores high in one, but low in the other (as is common) which one gives the "well above average" ranking?

And who ever says "Yeah, I'm below average intelligence?" 

What exactly, by a qualitative or quantitative measurement is "usual privacy."  Or, "self destructive behavior" which can be viewed in many ways, all of which do not agree.  And there are a lot of things that seem like "dangerous jobs or activities" from the outside, that are less so on the inside.  The two most dangerous jobs in the US, according to OSHA are very different.  One is coal mining.  OK, we can all agree on that one.  Anything that goes wrong in a coal mine is going to be very bad for those who are underground.  Number two - working at a convenience store.  Which does not sound near as dangerous as coal mining, but is almost as bad.  I love to climb - technical climbing - and when I was younger I was quite good.  My friends now tell me "I climb like an old lady" to which I reply, "I am."  I'm 52 and not as good as I was at 27.  But a lot of people think its dangerous, when in fact, its a lot safer than many other sports.  Mountain biking and High School Football are both a lot more dangerous than technical climbing, a lot more. 

jobs that require intense concentration and highly technical vocations
are also jobs that tend to pay a lot more, so doesn't everyone want them?

deep seated hatred of authority  -- Thats loaded, and I'm sure you know it.  Look, lots of people in here are religious, I'm not.  I'm not even going to take the cop out of "I"m Spiritual" which I also hold as being more or less bunk.  Some of these people look to the preacher and pastor or their meditation master as some sort of 'authority.'  Do I have a 'deep seated hated of authority' if I don't think these people have any authority at all in the first place?  How could any sensient person have any respect for the authority of the President of the United States given the conduct in that office the last 16+ years?  During Senate hearing on rock and roll lyrics (Having solved all other problems....) Frank Zappa asked Slade Gordon (R-WA) if he was doing this to get re-elected.  Gordon threatened Zappa with a contempt of Congress charge to which Frank replied "Go ahead Senator, I already hold you in contempt."  And by what reasonable standard was Frank supposed to hold that body in respect when its taking sworn statements from the lead singer of Twisted Sister?  I do hold the SF Police in the highest respect however, even if I think our mayor is a publicity whore, and our Board of Supervisors is just the entertainment branch of the big landlords.

   
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Kate

Quote from: tekla on March 26, 2008, 01:20:55 PM
jobs that require intense concentration and highly technical vocations are also jobs that tend to pay a lot more, so doesn't everyone want them?

I don't. I'd be seriously tempted if I was offered a clerical or supportive type of job, even for less money. I'm tired of the isolation and responsibility of my programming/tech position. A NASTY combination that worked for my previous self, but now I see how it's been just feeding my problems.

I don't think that list is so bad. Most of it is just symptoms or manifestations of the shame and guilt that builds up in many of us from hiding the GID. We often become introverted, very watchful and paranoid of our behaviour and people's reactions, build lives and worlds in our heads since we can't exist in the REAL one, etc.

~Kate~
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