Susan's Place Logo

News:

According to Google Analytics 25,259,719 users made visits accounting for 140,758,117 Pageviews since December 2006

Main Menu

My Interpretation of Why Jesus was sent to Die on earth....

Started by maragirlygirr, February 09, 2008, 06:41:05 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

buttercup

Quote from: lisagurl on March 05, 2008, 02:51:43 PM
In some circles he committed suicide to become a martyr.

Have never heard that view before.

Jesus was persecuted and then was executed, he didn't want to die!  He would not renounce his faith and who he was, so he had to die by the law of the land.  That in itself is a lesson for everyone.

Mary, Queen of Scots, was beheaded because she would not give up her Catholic faith!
  •  

Ell

Quote from: buttercup on March 06, 2008, 06:27:03 PM
Quote from: lisagurl on March 05, 2008, 02:51:43 PM
In some circles he committed suicide to become a martyr.

Have never heard that view before.

i know, right? isn't that raw?
  •  

lisagurl

QuoteMary, Queen of Scots, was beheaded because she would not give up her Catholic faith!
The Romans also executed a few Christians for not saying they renounced their faith.However the Romans did not care what people believed in private only what they declared in public because it was a cry against the Government and the collection of taxes. To knowingly agree to die for a verbal utterance is suicide just as a martyr decries his actions in the name of a belief. Jesus and many other Christians could have done a lot more good had they operated out of sight of the authorities.
  •  

joannatsf

Quote from: buttercup on March 06, 2008, 06:27:03 PM

Mary, Queen of Scots, was beheaded because she would not give up her Catholic faith!


Like most things between between Monarchs the reason for Mary's execution was political and had to do with succession.  There was religious turmoil in the UK and Mary was a Roman Catholic to Elizabeth's Anglicanism.  That could be used as a base of popular support for mary's claim.  Of more important concern was that Mary's father in law, the King of France, supported Mary's claim to the English throne.  Elizabeth viewed Mary, whom she'd never met, as a threat to her throne.  Sooo, like the Queen of Hearts says, "Off with her head!!!".
  •  

tekla

OK, Mary Queen of Scotts aside, here is what I never got.  Didn't get it through 12 years of Catholic School, didn't get it in the some 30 years after that either, and I've yet to have a Christian give me a valid reason.

Why could not God - being God (so he can do whatever he wants, by defination) - just give a New York City answer and tell Adam and Eve - "Fugetaboutit"?  Why all that song and dance?  Why not just let bygones be bygones, "OK Eve ate the apple, darn - I was hoping she wouldn't do that, but the snake is pretty tricksey and all, oh ....  ah, forget it?"
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Ms Jessica

Quote from: tekla on March 07, 2008, 12:35:47 PM
OK, Mary Queen of Scotts aside, here is what I never got.  Didn't get it through 12 years of Catholic School, didn't get it in the some 30 years after that either, and I've yet to have a Christian give me a valid reason.

Why could not God - being God (so he can do whatever he wants, by defination) - just give a New York City answer and tell Adam and Eve - "Fugetaboutit"?  Why all that song and dance?  Why not just let bygones be bygones, "OK Eve ate the apple, darn - I was hoping she wouldn't do that, but the snake is pretty tricksey and all, oh ....  ah, forget it?"

I attempted to go here in my earlier post: 

Quote from: Jessica L. on March 05, 2008, 11:05:53 AM
St Paul's Epistle to the Romans says "The wages of sin is death".  This is commonly interpreted to mean that you deserve death as punishment for your sin.  I don't know that I really buy into this concept, at least not completely.  Jesus says in John's gospel that "Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin."  This concept of sin as both task and taskmaster is more to the heart of the matter, or so I think.  That's why I say I don't buy into the concept of death as punishment for sin, at least not completely.  There's more to it. 
Here's a quote from one of my favorite blogs (http://slacktivist.typepad.com/):
"That neatly encapsulates one of the major themes in Paul's epistles: the idea that sin becomes both employment and employer, both task and task-master. Odds are, though, if you're listening to someone presenting the Romans Road, that's not what they'll tell you. They will tell you, contra-Paul in this very passage, that your sin makes you deserving of death and that it is God, not sin, who will pay you this deadly wage."

What I was trying to say with my (overly) lengthy explanation and the quote is that it isn't God who wants to punish us.  In a sense, He can't simply say "Fugetaboutit" because "Fugetaboutit" isn't the right response.  Christ said that "For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved".  I get the sense that Christ's death has less to do with pleasing an angry God than it does with saving us from something that we did--namely making slaves of ourselves.   

By our free will, with the choices we make, we become slaves to sin ("Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin").  We, by which I mean any sinner, have done this to ourselves.  This is not God punishing us for our sins.  This is sin punishing us for our sins.  Not a devil in red pyjamas, not a vengeful God.  We are reaping what we sow. 

If I stand on your foot, and apologize, you could say "Fugetaboutit".  (Sorry, I just love typing that so I've kept using it).  But if I have fouled up my life with bad choices and become a slave to those bad decisions, how does you saying "Fugetaboutit" help at all?  I need a much deeper intervention to set my life straight. 
  •  


tekla

I do understand some of that.  My grandmother used to tell me that "you make your habits, then your habits make you,... or break you."  Should have listened to her better at times I guess.  A line from some old song I like a lot goes: "I can tell your future, oh just look whats in your hand."  Which I always took to mean that most people keep on doing what they were doing.  Little did I know - and I'm not sure if I would change it if I had - that back when I was 15 and working with Little Princess 109 Lighting, that I'd most likely still be doing it a half century later.  Perhaps I might have made different choices.  Or not.

That the Christ was sent - not to die for our sins, a rather radical reading of the Gospels no doubt - as a 'signpost to a new space' is a nice thought.  Though it seems contra-Christian.  That Jesus acted in that way, and in that manner, knowing the final outcome, and kept on doing it anyway has a kind of reassurance to it that mainstream thought seems to lack.  I know I'm not alone in thinking that the TV preacher, with the expensive watch, the private jet and all that material stuff is not exactly walking the walk of 'blessed are the poor.'

My favorite theologian, (and I don't have many) Edward Schillebeeckx, as much as argued (though he would pull back somewhat) that the resurrection of Christ was meant to be a metaphorical ideal, one that we could make part of our lives, in that every day, we have the ability to forgive ourselves, and get about with trying to live a good life.  To the degree that 'the wages of sin are death' (though the life of Christ pretty much proves that the wages of doing nothing but good stuff is pretty much the same) its we who kill ourselves with guilt and recrimination.  "For all have fallen short of the Glory of God" is a given, and we have to forgive ourselves first.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Ms Jessica

Quote from: tekla on March 07, 2008, 01:25:53 PM
My favorite theologian, (and I don't have many) Edward Schillebeeckx, as much as argued (though he would pull back somewhat) that the resurrection of Christ was meant to be a metaphorical ideal, one that we could make part of our lives, in that every day, we have the ability to forgive ourselves, and get about with trying to live a good life. 
I think the world would be infinitely improved if people practiced just a small part of this. 
Reminds me of what David Letterman said when Sixpence None the Richer was a musical guest on the Late Show years ago.  But that's another story. 

Your statement about the TV preacher rings more than true.  I had a friend in high school who reportedly heard one say "If you don't send me money, Jesus won't love you anymore".  I think there's a special place in hell for people like that.

I think there's an awful lot of reliance on "by faith you have been saved, not of works lest any man should boast" but a complete ignorance of "Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." 
  •  

tekla

Go into any Christian bookstore now and you'll find "The Purpose Driven Life" and the companion diary, prayer journal, meditational devotional and paper dolls.  The fiction section is amok with "Left Behind" and its sequels, prequels, spin-offs and other sins against mankind.  The section of Christian Classics used to be stocked with things like "The Pilgrim's Progress" or something like that.  Pretty much all you can find now is something by CS Lewis.  I like CS Lewis, but there's more to the historical writings of the church than CS Lewis.  You will find absolutely nothing by any of the church doctors.  You might find a copy of St. Augustine's "Confessions".  A good book.

I'm pretty sure that most Christian bookstores are not much on Catholic theology, and you ain't finding Thomas Merton or Dorothy Day in there either - though The Seven Story Mountain by Merton, and Dorothy Day's (1952) The Long Loneliness are both pretty much modern takes on Augustine.  Which I think is not just a good book, its one of the true classics of the ages. 
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Ms Jessica

How right you are.  Unfortunately, in addition to not being much on Catholic theology, they're not much on theology of any kind.  Unless it's the kind you can sell with a fancy cardboard in-store display.  :)
If you look for anything that's more than superficial theology there's a greater than 99% chance you'll come up empty.  Or so my experience has been.

  •  

tekla

Are you calling "The Seven Habits of Highly Effective Christians" cardboard theology? 

I think you should find the Day book - "The Long Loneliness."  Its the hard-core stuff.  Brutal at points.  Ain't no easy walk to God for sure. 
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Ms Jessica

LOL. 
Far be it from me to criticize the reading habits of others.  Except I guess I've already done that.  Alright.  I'll go out on a limb.  Yes.  It's cardboard theology.  It looks great, but there's nothing holding it up in the back.  A stiff kick or a strong breeze and it'll fall right over.  There I said it.  And I meant it. 
If you ever need a good laugh, take a look at the "Left Behind" section of the slacktivist blog I linked to earlier.  It's priceless. 
What with it being Lent and all, I'll make a more than usual effort to pick up The Long Loneliness.  Even the title sounds good.  Who knows, I might even find it at Borders or *gasp* Barnes and Noble. 
Thanks much for the recommendation. 
  •  

tekla

Harper Collins just re-released it.  If the mainstream guys don't have it I'm sure you could order it through the Catholic Worker Movement which she founded.

And I've read bits of Left Behind, as much as I could stomach, which as it turns out, was not all that much.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Ms Jessica

I'm not surprised you had trouble with it.  The Left Behind series are among the worst books ever written.  Seriously, check out the slacktivist blog.  I think you'll appreciate it.
In fact, there's a new Left Behind post for today (the writer, Fred, posts a new entry every Friday on what is referred to as Left Behind Friday by his readers). 
  •  

Suzy

Quote from: tekla on March 07, 2008, 12:35:47 PM
Why could not God - being God (so he can do whatever he wants, by defination) - just give a New York City answer and tell Adam and Eve - "Fugetaboutit"?  Why all that song and dance?  Why not just let bygones be bygones, "OK Eve ate the apple, darn - I was hoping she wouldn't do that, but the snake is pretty tricksey and all, oh ....  ah, forget it?"

Could God have done that?  Of course.  However, it would not have been just.  It is like saying that God just winks at sin.  That is not true.  In order for God to be just, ample payment had to have been made.  So why did God choose the way God did?  Because to become a human, to become one of us, to show us a better way, and to ultimately pay the penalty for us, it the very most loving thing possible.  Telling us to just forget about sin is about the most blatant way to portray apathy.

Kristi
  •  

Kinkly

I have a slightly different take on why Jesus had to die the way he did.
throughout the old testament there are hundreds of little predictions about how Jesus would die. All - as far as i know all came true.
If Jesus didn't die a public death he might not have had a lasting impact and there would not have looked into his life as much.
God tweaked everything so that the message of love would last forever.- I also believe that god died for our sins. but i think this might be the sort of answer you are seeking.
I don't want to be a man there from Mars
I'd Like to be a woman Venus looks beautiful
I'm enjoying living on Pluto, but it is a bit lonely
  •