M2F Tomboys?

[cindybc]

Hi Gracie FAISE, "chees wizz hon," I certainly see a girl in your avatar, maybe your parents should invest in a couple of bucks for eye glasses if they don't see what is obvious right in front of their eyes.  Well anyway hon I do think you are a pretty attractive girl.

Me, well even when I was in guy mode I wouldn't wear anything else but men's slacks and sport shirt with some variety of colors. Then I came out full time for the last 8 years ago I believe I began wearing skirts and tops which was the usual most social workers wore to work. During the hot weather at home or just bee bopping around town I liked, actually still do, love wearing sundresses.  Now would you believe that I am once more into doing social work at a woman's shelter, and I wear slacks and a top.

I am not to picky or choosy though, I just wear what ever the other girls wear. My best friend *Helen* I hung around with from the age of 11 until 15 years old, she was a tom boy and did quite well handling herself in a street fight. She was the chief between the two of us and I respected her and I did what she asked me to do. We had a lot of fun, almost constantly getting into mischief, like small time stuff. Sometimes the friendly neighborhood cop gave us a ride home.   

Cindy

[Gracie Faise]

It is different for parents. Harder to see you as you're gender and not your sex. I understand their troubles. I have patience so it is fine. I will move out some time in the next year or two and then I'll be able to dress how I want, which will be really fun. But even then it might take a bit. I'm waiting for my hormones to catch up. I'm still self conscious about my figure to an extent.

[cindybc]

I believe you will do well Gracie FAISE hon. You sound very much like you have your stuff together. But if you happen to stub your toe on a rock while on your journey please drop in and I am sure I'll have some band-aids around to fix your toe with.

Cindy 

[Rachael]

I see Gracie's issue...  although my parents couldn't accept even the notion of girl full stop, i see where she is coming form.

Tbh, tomboy is a means to an end sometimes.

But its the ultimate test of looking truly female, if you pass wearing nearly all mens clothes or andro clothes XD
R >

[deviousxen]

It is different for parents. Harder to see you as you're gender and not your sex. I understand their troubles. I have patience so it is fine. I will move out some time in the next year or two and then I'll be able to dress how I want, which will be really fun. But even then it might take a bit. I'm waiting for my hormones to catch up. I'm still self conscious about my figure to an extent.

I wouldn't mind that at all... I'd just keep all of the clothes hidden somewhere for when they went to sleep... Cause lets be honest. We're probably more nocturnally inclined than our parents most of the time.

I have the feeling that my mom thinks it a phase...

She's unsure about it and stuff... And is pretty clingy to her notions of feminine, versus female, and gay vs. straight, and all of this other nonsense. She personally believes that bisexual people do not exist, and thinks that I'd have to like boys in order for me to be a girl...
She's asked me on several occasions if I were "gay" instead of "gender troubled" and I'm always pretty solid on my answer. Of course... Now I seem to not really mind the fantasy of boys, but in reality I'd most likely always go for a girl... Of course... I like dominant ones, cause I'm freakin' hopeless on my own with someone worse than me... But thats not the issue. My concern is what the problem is, not who I'd date in 4 years or more. I'm not even interested in marriage, cause the conventional family ideals frankly scare me, and don't sit well in me...

My mom has given me absolutely no support. She let me start seeing a therapist, who wasn't a specialist, and that doesn't DO anything... I'm on good terms with him, but when he referred me to the GI Clinic of New England, my mom called up and told me I couldn't even go cause the insurance wouldn't cover it. Thanks mom.... Thanks a lot. Now we're on a different insurance, and she still hasn't lifted a finger. Its like she doesn't want to do anything, cause she's afraid I'm right. Its crap! I can't wait to see the look on her face when she finds out how much deeper into this I am than she currently believes. I don't really trust her right now, and telling her would just ruin everything... So not yet...

Wow... I rant. Must be cause I'm all emo at 3 am, and am only up right now cause I had to finish comic work.... I am... DONE

[Hypatia]

But its the ultimate test of looking truly female, if you pass wearing nearly all mens clothes or andro clothes XD

That's what I mean about needing to prove something. So you can do that-- so what? I have found what works for me, and I pass well, I live full time and everyone genders me female. What works for me is to dress feminine and conservative, which is fortunately the style I like, and I have no difficulties living my life as a woman everywhere I go. I don't care about passing in men's clothes. Why would I want to? I hate men's clothes.

I think part of the problem is too many MTFs have an appallingly bad concept of what feminine style is, and get it all wrong. The tricky thing is that for it to work it has to be done very well and very tastefully, which is why a conservative approach works for me. At your age, you may find a conservative look won't fit in with your life. I understand that. At my age, I've found it's what works best. By feminine I don't mean over the top with sparkly, mini, frilly glitz. I go for a soft, understated style that looks classy and elegant. Some of the American ladies may recognize the name Coldwater Creek, if so that will give an idea of what I'm talking about. My girlfriend takes me shopping there a lot, and we help each trying on outfits and picking out what looks best on us. Anyone who isn't expert at pulling off feminine styles had better stick to jeans and sneakers, hard to go wrong with that.

I'm in the Washington DC area, where women feel free to be stylish and wear dresses, and trans women insist on pants. I have never seen any group of transsexual women where femininity is favored, I wonder where you are posting from, Gracie. It's like there's a transsexual fear of femininity, so much that they hide in frump looks hoping they'll not be noticed in the crowd--and they resent when anyone dresses stylishly. I have conquered my fear of being seen and wear nice styles with total confidence and unfeigned nonchalance--which is essential to passing. I empathize with the fear, there have been times when it crippled me, but I made myself get over it and now live quite happily full time as a woman--a modestly elegant woman at that.

[tekla]

too many MTFs have an appallingly bad concept of what feminine style is

So does Brittany Spears. 

The first question is, where are you going, followed by what are you doing?  That should be the beginnings of a guide.  Dress, more or less, like everyone else there.  Like Rachel and her schoolgirls in disgrace chums.  What is right for one place is out of place in another.

[Hypatia]

That's true, and the way I dress I fit in well with the other women I work with and am friends with. They're almost all genetic women. Except that two of my close friends are post-op transsexual women, and they wear skirts-- but they have no contact with any MTF community. I guess the 3 of us form a little skirt-wearing MTF community of our own.

Anyway, for this thread the point I wanted to make is that Johnnie has nothing to worry about, she would face bigger hassles from other trans women if she preferred femininity. As she is, she will do just fine, and this thread bears that out.

[Gracie Faise]

But its the ultimate test of looking truly female, if you pass wearing nearly all mens clothes or andro clothes XD

That's what I mean about needing to prove something. So you can do that-- so what? I have found what works for me, and I pass well, I live full time and everyone genders me female. What works for me is to dress feminine and conservative, which is fortunately the style I like, and I have no difficulties living my life as a woman everywhere I go. I don't care about passing in men's clothes. Why would I want to? I hate men's clothes.

I think part of the problem is too many MTFs have an appallingly bad concept of what feminine style is, and get it all wrong. The tricky thing is that for it to work it has to be done very well and very tastefully, which is why a conservative approach works for me. At your age, you may find a conservative look won't fit in with your life. I understand that. At my age, I've found it's what works best. By feminine I don't mean over the top with sparkly, mini, frilly glitz. I go for a soft, understated style that looks classy and elegant. Some of the American ladies may recognize the name Coldwater Creek, if so that will give an idea of what I'm talking about. My girlfriend takes me shopping there a lot, and we help each trying on outfits and picking out what looks best on us. Anyone who isn't expert at pulling off feminine styles had better stick to jeans and sneakers, hard to go wrong with that.

I'm in the Washington DC area, where women feel free to be stylish and wear dresses, and trans women insist on pants. I have never seen any group of transsexual women where femininity is favored, I wonder where you are posting from, Gracie. It's like there's a transsexual fear of femininity, so much that they hide in frump looks hoping they'll not be noticed in the crowd--and they resent when anyone dresses stylishly. I have conquered my fear of being seen and wear nice styles with total confidence and unfeigned nonchalance--which is essential to passing. I empathize with the fear, there have been times when it crippled me, but I made myself get over it and now live quite happily full time as a woman--a modestly elegant woman at that.

I'm from San Diego California. Annwyn (another poster on this forum) lives more up north than me in the same state and she can voucher for me with her first hand experience of being ostracized in her own irl trans support groups for not looking or dressing feminine. Also, in my support groups we have brought up on a few occasions the pressure many transmen and women have to be more masculine/feminine.

I think all this stuff is regional, so I see little point in arguing.

[tekla]

Annwyn (another poster on this forum) lives more up north than me in the same state

Odd, she has said several times that she lives in, or near Paris Island, which is in Beaufort, South Carolina.  That's a whole 'nother ocean.  And I've been to many TG events in SF (which, as it turns out, is north of you) and never seen anyone get grief for what they wore.

[Gracie Faise]

Annwyn (another poster on this forum) lives more up north than me in the same state

Odd, she has said several times that she lives in, or near Paris Island, which is in Beaufort, South Carolina.  That's a whole 'nother ocean.  And I've been to many TG events in SF (which, as it turns out, is north of you) and never seen anyone get grief for what they wore.

Hrmm, You're right about Annwyn. I thought she was in LA for some reason...

As for SF, that's a whole 'nother world from San Diego, lol. But like I already said, It is all regional I guess.

[Kate]

she would face bigger hassles from other trans women if she preferred femininity.

I dunno, I think we all feel pressures from the Opposite Camp, whatever that may be for each of us. While no one has ever been mean to me about it, I've certainly heard it suggested that I wear more makeup, dress more femininely and should study the women around me so I could better mimick their mannerisms and behaviours... all with an implied, "why'd you even bother transitioning if you don't wanna do all the fun stuff?" puzzlement.

And when I try to explain that I don't feel any urge to "express myself" via clothing styles or feminine mannerisms, that I wouldn't go fulltime until I was passing reasonably well, I'm told I have "self-acceptance" issues. Whenever I mention I never tried crossdressing until my thirties, I hear "well that's OK, I wouldn't worry about it too much... as long as you know who you are inside it should be OK..."

Thing is, I can see where it makes sense for people who want to express femininity to basically just suck it up, "accept themselves," and go out "enfemme" as soon as they can find the courage to do so. But it made no sense for me to do that, as I don't care about expressing femininity per se. I just had to function as a female in society, and everything I've done has been to flip that switch within society and my own mind... everything has been a means to that end, and not goals in themselves. And being seen as a male in women's clothing wouldn't get me there, no matter how much "self acceptance" I had.

I'm a bit touchy about all this too, as it's frustrating to constantly be told I don't "accept myself," or that I'm "hiding" or whatever because I don't do those things or share those motivations. And I'm still convinced the reason it took forever for me to get an HRT letter was because I never showed up for sessions or groups "enfemme," which again must have meant I didn't "accept myself." I never tried to perfect my "presentation" or anything like that.

And I'm NOT saying I didn't have to do those things because I was always sooooo female already or anything. Compared to most of the TSs I've met, I'm something of a dismal failure presentation-wise, lol. But STILL, what you see is what you get. This IS me, warts and male habits and lack of femininity and all, lol...

All water under the bridge now, but it really left a bad taste in my mouth.

~Kate~

[Rachael]

yeah, theres a massive pressure of m2fs should be feminine... in gender clinics, support groups etc, fug it.
Hypatia: fine, feminine works for you, but its irelevant to the topic, 'TOMBOYS'

Tekla: OI! we are not denegrates! its a club theme night yous clearly too old to get it
R >

[tekla]

Like dirt, I was around when they invented that look, which is a combination of 'naughty and nice' taking what is by tradition a teen age / High School look and putting a more adult (or at least non-uniform) twist, like the bare midriff or fishnets or FM pumps.  And its not degenerate - though in part its designed to appeal to a certain sexual preoccupation, its just disgrace, and its a fashion term, a name for a costume, not a values judgment - unless you are really trying to attract people who are looking for a 16 year old GF.

[Shana A]

I prefer skirts, especially long "hippie" type that women wear for contradancing or wrap skirts. When I transitioned, some friends asked why couldn't I tone it down and wear women's slacks and shirts. Boring! Jeez, if I have to wear pants, I might as well just wear men's jeans... I got a drawer full of them. 

Funny thing, even though I like wearing skirts, I'm not ultra femme, I prefer not wearing any makeup, and maybe earrings, no fancy jewelry. Mostly jeans and flannel shirts are OK.

Z

[deviousxen]

I love fishnet... SO MUCH. Thats pretty much all I know in this terrible world..

[Suzy]

I guess I don't get this whole conversation.  Isn't the point to be able to dress and express ourselves in a what that matches who we are inside?   Since I believe it is, I could care less what this group or another group thinks of me.  It's one of the reasons I don't join groups.  Lighten up, people, and enjoy this!

Kristi

[Rachael]

the point we are slowly exposing through meticulous forensic excavation, is that most ->-bleeped-<-s seem to think feminine = female or equate femininity with femaleness.

Some of us are confident enough in ourselves as women to take up that right that our sisters died for and bloodywell wear trousers if we want to! [/huzzah]
R >

[cindybc]

Hmmmm, Yea I haven't been to very many TS support groups, they were just to far away from where I live, but often enough to notice those who were some  overdressed to my opinion and others very conservativly, like in female clothes but more like the type of clothes one wears to work in an office. I adopted the conservative type female wear but always dressed according to what ever I was doing that way. Like digging a ditch with a shovel, I wore men's trousers and a mans shirt. When I was shoveling snow I wore clothes suited to do that type of work.

Now in my new job at the women's shelter I dress like the other girls dress, which mostly consists of tops and women's slacks. I never liked jeans because I get a rash wearing them. Sometimes wear ladies sportswear when on a road trip. I will wear what is appropriate for the beach. Shorts and a halter top for going hiking. yea I look pretty good for my age and it feels good to be able to show off some of the merchandise occasionally.

Cindy   

[Maddie Secutura]

Does the tomboy preference have anything to do with how we were socialized growing up?