Why do you want...?

[sneakersjay]

Don your bathing suit at home with a nice wrap-skirt or cover-up. Take a towel with you and go swimming.

When you're done, dry-off on the pool deck, don the cover-up or wrap skirt and leave. That's what most of us do at the beach anyway.

If I've understood her correctly then that's exactly what she cannot do because the only way to the pool is through one of the locker rooms. I could very well imagine that I've already seen various pool areas like that. It's the same with our gym hall at school (even if we got no pool ) even the teachers have to either go through the boys' or the girls' locker room.

Right, but if she's dressed in a women's suit with a skirt wrap, who is going to think there is something wrong with her walking through the women's locker room on the way to the pool?  I'm sure she'd cause a scene walking through the men's locker room like that.

I guess I want to know how many bathroom police they have at this university.  I also have no patience for those with zero common sense and a penchant for overzealous application of arbitrary rules... 

Jay

[NicholeW.]

That was my thought as well, Jay. But, seemed easier just to say 'ok.' ...

So, Jay and I wanna know  what WOULD prevent you from walking through the women's locker-room to the pool dressed that way, Angel? 

Nichole

[Elincubus]

I guess I want to know how many bathroom police they have at this university.  I also have no patience for those with zero common sense and a penchant for overzealous application of arbitrary rules... 

True, true...

But I've got a question since I don't really know about this legal stuff (even less in a completely different country). Is it really illegal to enter bath room of the opposite sex? I mean what would happen if some regular guy goes to the ladys room or some woman to the men's? Would there be like legal consequences of any kind or only if somebody else (whose gender matches the restroom) complains?

[NicholeW.]

I guess I want to know how many bathroom police they have at this university.  I also have no patience for those with zero common sense and a penchant for overzealous application of arbitrary rules... 

True, true...

But I've got a question since I don't really know about this legal stuff (even less in a completely different country). Is it really illegal to enter bath room of the opposite sex? I mean what would happen if some regular guy goes to the ladys room or some woman to the men's? Would there be like legal consequences of any kind or only if somebody else (whose gender matches the restroom) complains?

Actually, it happens allatime, I imagine. People go into the 'wrong' door and either realize their mistake and leave or don't and use that room, puzzled, perhaps, why it doesn't 'look' like 'their' restroom.

And then there are more frequent instances in public places of huge lines for the women's and some or a few women going into the men's because there's 'no wait.'

As far as I have ever heard, no one has ever been arrested or ticketed for those things.

However, due to the major 'thing' being made currently by the 'irrelegious right' over bathrooms people might be a bit more sensitive to it in some locations now than in others. I dunno. I seem to live in an 'others' place. Haven't got much play around here about the bathroom invasions of sexual predators!

Nichole

[sneakersjay]

That was my thought as well, Jay. But, seemed easier just to say 'ok.' ...

So, Jay and I wanna know  what WOULD prevent you from walking through the women's locker-room to the pool dressed that way, Angel? 

Nichole

This is going to come up this summer when I go to this particular campground that has pool access this same way: no access except via male or female locker rooms.  Should I go through the ladies locker room with my daughter and niece, though I'll be dressed in men's swim trunks and rash guard and a prosthetic penis, or do I traverse the men's locker room, knowing I probably don't pass 100%?  Though I figure the obligatory leak at the urinal might erase all doubts about my manhood...

Seriously, in my entire life as a bio-female using female facilities I don't think I ever paid too much attention to the other patrons, meaning if at first glance they looked female, they were female.  I'm sure over the years I've encountered many transwomen in the bathrooms and never knew...I'm not of the habit of scrutinizing other people waiting for a stall.  In this day and age of many androgynous-looking people, I don't really give it a thought.

On the other hand, this campground trip will likely be my first initiation into the men's room, and most likely I'll just walk on through like I belong there and emerge from the other side.  The leak thing is in my dreams, though I hope it to be a reality, since my um, more permanent anatomy should arrive next week...

Now to make sure my daughter doesn't scream MOM!! as I enter the men's room...

Jay

[Elincubus]

@Nichole
That's pretty much how I thought, but then I don't really understand why Angel (and sure lots of other girls) even have to talk to people like this. Or are there special rules in school or something? I mean on a big campus it's not as if everybody knows each other like it might be in a high school or something.

[NicholeW.]

@Nichole
That's pretty much how I thought, but then I don't really understand why Angel (and sure lots of other girls) even have to talk to people like this. Or are there special rules in school or something? I mean on a big campus it's not as if everybody knows each other like it might be in a high school or something.

I'd have to let Angel speak for herself on that.

Sometimes at work/school/etc women and men come-out without having completed entirely their transitions: they haven't done name and gender-marker changes, etc and their physical states kinda out-run their abilities to be 'seen' in the old sex. If they feel that's problematic people will often talk with their HR depts or the school administration about cooperation.

Some schools are prolly more open to that than are others. For instance, just a guess but I would imagine that BYU, Notre Dame, Baylor and Pepperdine (all private and organized by religious groups) would tend to be less than positive in their responses.

Many state schools, depending on the state, would be more open to such requests. In Washington (state) and California and (maybe) Oregon you can get gender-markers and sex-desinators changed w/out surgeries so I would expect that schools may not even have those problems there anymore.

I'd just guess that schools in Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, Massachusetts, Hawaii and New York might be very open to that sort of cooperation as well. Another guess would be Kansas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississsippi, both Dakotas and Utah along with schools in other states might be more averse, but I'd also bet that some universities even in the more conservative areas might well be able to assist students in that regard.

I imagine people would do it because they feel safer from possible violent reprisals with some admin support, they don't want to experience anymore embarrassment and talk about themselves than is necessary. Probably other things as well.

Over here, it's more or less a state-by-state, even locality-by-locality and school-by-school type set of policies. 

Hope that helps, E.

N~

[tekla]

Notre Dame has quite a few unisex bathrooms as it seemed the best way to solve the problem when they went co-ed way back when - the problem being that the old buildings built for a male only school didn't have lots of 'girls rooms.'

And my experience is that private schools are a lot freer to do as they wish then state schools are.

[NicholeW.]

Notre Dame has quite a few unisex bathrooms as it seemed the best way to solve the problem when they went co-ed way back when - the problem being that the old buildings built for a male only school didn't have lots of 'girls rooms.'

And my experience is that private schools are a lot freer to do as they wish then state schools are.

Too true, Kat, but what we all really want to know from you is this: Which Disney Princess Are You? 

All you've told us thus far is that you admire Maleficent.  >

Nichole

[tekla]

Much closer to Tinkerbell (after all, I can fly and all that, or at least set the rigging to fly Tink, and I have, and in doing that I got to test it a time or two - I even have some old school pixie dust left over from the 1960s production of Peter Pan with Mary Martin when they used highly polished metal shavings.  They use mylar now, seems having metal shavings blowing through the theater and falling on the stage was not good on people's eyes.)

[Elincubus]

I'd have to let Angel speak for herself on that.

Sometimes at work/school/etc women and men come-out without having completed entirely their transitions: they haven't done name and gender-marker changes, etc and their physical states kinda out-run their abilities to be 'seen' in the old sex. If they feel that's problematic people will often talk with their HR depts or the school administration about cooperation.

Yeah, it's definitely one of the hardest things to start transition as teenager without changing school...there is just no way, not everybody knows...
But you know this whole fuss that's made about restrooms is so ridiculous... Whom does it harm if somebody with the wrong parts uses the toilet--even more so on a campus where nobody knows nobody anyway...
That you have to talk to some kind of campus president who even needs a hard to attain official admission... Why do they have to make such (from their perspective) unimportant, trivial things so complicated? Don't they have better things to do?


@Nichole

Now I understand that it is in reality a big deal to get official permission, especially in this state, to use the opposite sex bathroom on private grounds. But I feel my answer on my follow up visit to her in a week should be more like this.

I got another legal question. That's a quote from the first posting. You said people can't even get a ticket if they use the 'wrong' restroom and that many TS people just want admin support (which I understand completely), but what's about this whole 'official admission' thing That sounds a lot as if it was mandatory...
Sorry for asking all these questions, but I'm somehow confused...

[tekla]

So much of this depends on where you are.  Its possible to get cited for indecent exposure, but there is a catch-all 'creating a public disturbance' that they could get you on.  In SF no, in Texas, who knows?

[Terra]

and um, may i ask if you are in the US? because if you are, people are denying your Constitutional rights at your job. don't get pissed! but there is no law against wearing nail polish. you need to contact the GLBT law center near you, and the ACLU.

-Ellie   

They claim that it is all since I work in food services that they are following FDA protocol. Never mind that i've seen half the woman wearing such things. The earrings could get caught or fall off into food, same with necklace. The nail polish could be a health hazard, despite the fact that we must wear gloves around the food.

@Nichole
That's pretty much how I thought, but then I don't really understand why Angel (and sure lots of other girls) even have to talk to people like this. Or are there special rules in school or something? I mean on a big campus it's not as if everybody knows each other like it might be in a high school or something.

I'd have to let Angel speak for herself on that.

Sometimes at work/school/etc women and men come-out without having completed entirely their transitions: they haven't done name and gender-marker changes, etc and their physical states kinda out-run their abilities to be 'seen' in the old sex. If they feel that's problematic people will often talk with their HR depts or the school administration about cooperation.

Some schools are prolly more open to that than are others. For instance, just a guess but I would imagine that BYU, Notre Dame, Baylor and Pepperdine (all private and organized by religious groups) would tend to be less than positive in their responses.

Many state schools, depending on the state, would be more open to such requests. In Washington (state) and California and (maybe) Oregon you can get gender-markers and sex-desinators changed w/out surgeries so I would expect that schools may not even have those problems there anymore.

I'd just guess that schools in Minnesota, New Jersey, Vermont, Massachusetts, Hawaii and New York might be very open to that sort of cooperation as well. Another guess would be Kansas, Oklahoma, Tennessee, Alabama, Mississsippi, both Dakotas and Utah along with schools in other states might be more averse, but I'd also bet that some universities even in the more conservative areas might well be able to assist students in that regard.

I imagine people would do it because they feel safer from possible violent reprisals with some admin support, they don't want to experience anymore embarrassment and talk about themselves than is necessary. Probably other things as well.

Over here, it's more or less a state-by-state, even locality-by-locality and school-by-school type set of policies. 

Hope that helps, E.

N~

This is exactly why I came out in the first place to administration. I doubted my ability to pass and wanted to make sure that there was as little fuss as possible. Now it seems to have come back and bit me on the butt because of it. They keep insisting its not because of my ability to pass that these things are going on, but they have to go by law and university policy.

In Wyoming i'm still legally considered male, which in turn makes my use of the female locker room potentially unlawful. While I doubt that there actually is a law in Wyoming against it, the university wants to cut down risk. It also presents the problem that though I can't sue for discrimination, a female coworker (and potentially a student) could. This would fall under 'hostile work environment'.

As for how would they know? My boss has already said that he is going by the university standards, and I get the feeling I won't have a job if I go against the 'agreement'. In regards to the locker room, I feel that even if I don't get expelled, it would make the faculty less receptive to any future difficulties I might face on campus. They already have made a few policy changes that now just let me get into the pool directly. They simply opened up a door that was always locked before, i'll just have to shower and change at home just like any other students that take advantage of this change.

I get the feeling that what they are trying to do is avoid special rules. Meaning things that single out one group or individual. So them making any direct policies for transsexuals seems unlikely, but they will make changes if it will affect the student body in general. They said that all decisions are not 'end of the road' decisions. But to combat the machoism in the school will take time.

So they say.

In the meantime it has again been mentioned that part of the reason there is not going to be any fast changes is that there has been so little exposure to the student body with ->-bleeped-<-. I.E. they think it might be a good idea for me to come out. I've thought about it, and I had planned to be out to my students, but something feels off about doing that. I sorta feel that this suggestion is a trap, and doing so might actually restrict my ability to function in this town. So for now i'm waiting until the next meeting at the end of this summer while at the same time trying to get in touch with the Gender Institute in Colorado. Maybe they can help on the legal front, maybe not.

In the meantime i'm gonna get in shape so that it gets harder and harder for someone to call me a boy.

[NicholeW.]

In Wyoming i'm still legally considered male, which in turn makes my use of the female locker room potentially unlawful. While I doubt that there actually is a law in Wyoming against it, the university wants to cut down risk. It also presents the problem that though I can't sue for discrimination, a female coworker (and potentially a student) could. This would fall under 'hostile work environment'..

Hi, Angel:

I don't know what your boss and the admins think, but there are federal laws about employment and 'hostile work environment' applies to EVERYONE regardless of gender. Even if they regard you as a 'male' that set of laws covers you as well as everyone else in the workplace. So, if they have told you that it doesn't apply because you are 'male' they are absolutely wrong.

That they want you to think that is not surprising. It makes their jobs esier (read: they don't need to do anything as long as you are under this impression.) Most state laws follow the federal guidelines, otherwise they don't get block grants from DHHS to help out their budgets.

In the meantime it has again been mentioned that part of the reason there is not going to be any fast changes is that there has been so little exposure to the student body with ->-bleeped-<-. I.E. they think it might be a good idea for me to come out. I've thought about it, and I had planned to be out to my students, but something feels off about doing that. I sorta feel that this suggestion is a trap, and doing so might actually restrict my ability to function in this town. So for now i'm waiting until the next meeting at the end of this summer while at the same time trying to get in touch with the Gender Institute in Colorado. Maybe they can help on the legal front, maybe not.

Um, no. It is NOT your responsibility to 'educate' the student body about ->-bleeped-<-, transsexuality, homossexuality, cissexuality or the spin of Mars. The U you attend is responsible for all of those things. They have a Student Services Office, a Student Life Office, Campus Public Safety Office and a Human Resources Office as well as having Depts. of Sociology, Psychology, Biology and Social Work and perhaps Women's Studies & Gender Studies as well, right? IOW they have the means to do all of this without you having to place your life and safety in jeopardy to do their jobs for them.

This is what those admins get paid all the big bucks to do. And it's their responsibilites to promote a safe learning-environment for ALL the students there. That they would rather not hardly makes it your responsibility to do that for them.

I know you are in a poor situation in that town, perhaps as well in that state. But, the protection and safety of the people on-campus and in each community in that state is the State's responsibility.

I sorta feel that this suggestion is a trap, and doing so might actually restrict my ability to function in this town. So for now i'm waiting until the next meeting at the end of this summer while at the same time trying to get in touch with the Gender Institute in Colorado. Maybe they can help on the legal front, maybe not.

I agree. If it isn't a 'trap' to get you to take the heat it's a trap to have public pressure and intimidation run you away from there. I would advise against coming out to anyone else in Cheyenne.

I'd suggest contacting the Gender Institute immediately, at least asap, and finding out what you can. Surely they have e-mail capacity at the very least and I know UW has computer-labs and library computers available to full-time students, right?

I'd really and truly advise against coming-out in any way until you have some legal support. Trust me, once the legal support is in-place you may find that the admins take the matter a bit more seriously. Sometimes people simply need to have the proper motivation to do what they should be doing rather than what they would like to have done for them.

Hugs,

Nichole







Edited for two mis-types so kindly found courtesy of tekla. *blush*

[tekla]

Trust me, once the leagl support is in-place you may find that the admins take the matter a bit more seriously.

yeah, a little 'official' encouragement goes a long way.  A lawyer means lawsuit, a lawsuit means publicity. 

[sneakersjay]

Angel, just out of curiosity what does your employee handbook/manual state about discrimination?  In my state gender identity isn't listed with the regular anti-discrimination law (age, sex, race, nationality, sexual orientation) but is covered by an addendum to the sex discrimination law (hopefully to be listed soon, like in NY).

I do find that many administrations/people in charge will try to make YOU do what THEY want unless you confront them with laws (as Nichole said). 

I haven't had these issues yet, but face similar misinformation wrt homeschooling laws.  Schools and school officials NEVER get those right.

Jay

[tekla]

While I don't know about Texas, the last 8 years have not been a reign of positive PR about Bush's home state.... I'm pretty sure Wyoming is very sensitive to GLBT issues in the wake of Matt Sheppard, and would be a bit easier to nudge with a little official talk.

[lisagurl]

You are talking about a State that gay's were dragged to death behind a pickup. No matter what the law you are dealing with a dangerous situation.

[NicholeW.]

I carefully avoided using 'gender identity' since they are saying, according to the way I read your post, that you are 'male' and so are not covered by laws against 'hostile work environment.' OK, play that game if they wish.

"Males" are covered by the same hostile work environment protections as any other class of human being. Using gender-identity, so far, except in the possible case of the Smithsonian and the former military-analyst they hired then decided not to hire, has not worked. I believe there is a case currently making it's way through the courts that appears to have some promise in that direction though.

Nichole

And this

You are talking about a State that gay's were dragged to death behind a pickup. No matter what the law you are dealing with a dangerous situation.

is definitely true, regardless how much the Shepard incident has Cheyenne 'leery' of being seen as being a hostile place for 'different' people.

[tekla]

A hostile work environment is just that, its a gender free deal.  Its been much easier to prove for some females, for obvious reasons, I think more females have suffered under it.  But still.... hostile is hostile.