Saw a TS outed today in restaurant.

[cindianna_jones]

Call me dumb... what is a fur?

Cindi

[Atrian]

That really is bad.. surely if someone is willing to pay money and be given food, surely it  doesn't matter what they're wearing or what they look like?

[nonie]

Max & Erma's?  Wow.  I've probably even been to that branch.

That kind of behavior is really disgusting.  Columbus is pretty GLBT-friendly at least near campus, but living in Ohio is definitely scarier than living in Minnesota :/  Wish I was transitioning in my home state...

[Shana A]

I disagree that a transperson shouldn't be able to go to the restroom of the gender that they're presenting. If a biological male goes to the men's room while dressed as a woman, she's putting herself in significant danger of violence.

Also, there are plenty of people who don't fit neatly into one gender or the other, which bathroom can we use? I identify as neither (or both) gender, I've had more than a few times, when supposedly presenting as male, where people told me that I was entering the wrong restroom, pointing to the women's door. Are there going to be gender police outside every public facility? I personally would feel much safer if public single room facilities existed.

zythyra

[Kismet]

Call me dumb... what is a fur?

Cindi

Furs have really bad publicity, and there is no real set definition of 'furry.'
For me, 'furry' means associating with likeminded people who feel an affinity for animals so much so that they choose one to represent themselves with, they develop it into a character and portray themselves as that character online. They interact with text as those animal characters, perhaps have spiritual beliefs surrounding animals, and may even engage in making or wearing fursuit representations of said character.

I've got a few characters, but my most common are a male Sable Antelope, a white German Shepherd dog, and in the past I've played as a female Short-Beaked Common Dolphin. Really my persona changes on my mood to reflect my inner feelings.
Generally furries are seen as deviants who gather to have group sex dressed as animals, have sex with animals and other equally strange things. Furries are stereotyped as fat middle aged nerds roleplaying hot female foxes whilst gorging on cheetos constantly with no social skills whatsoever living in their mother's basement. Whilst there certainly are some furries who fit this description to a very accurate 'T' most aren't like that.

If you want to see some of my anthro art:
http://susej.org/upload/files/iothrinn.jpg
http://susej.org/upload/files/iothrinnpose.jpg These two are my sable antelope character.
http://susej.org/upload/files/szephcharpic.jpg My white German Shepherd.

[taylor]

Hi All,

Draeden:
Did I see something about this on CSI last yr or the yr before?  I had no clue what a "Furry" is either. Glad you explained it.


To everyone : 

I asked my wife how she would feel if she had a CD male come into the womens bathroom and she stated that she would be very upset and feel violated. I then asked her how she would feel if a women in transition came in, and she said that she would be fine with that, and not think a thing of it. Then she also admits she does not know how she would actually know the difference, so I told her to just assume for the sake of the topic, that she did have the knowledge of CD verses TS. Obviously in real life she would not really know for sure most likely.

I think her feelings that differ between the two situations says a lot. She also asked that if I put this in here  I make clear that she does not intend to make anyone feel offended at all, just wanted to share her view of things.

As for me I have to say that I would not be cool with a CD man in a womans restroom, restrooms are not for me seperated by what you are wearing, if your a man wearing a dress or not, I don't want a man in the ladies room with my daughter, wife,  mother etc. Not cool at all to me. Of course in reality I would not know if they are CD or TS, but the CD guy knows he is a guy and should give this respect to the women and stay out of their space.  I also do not mean to offend, so please just take what I am saying as my own personal view for the sake of this conversation.

Peace,

Taylor

[Kismet]

Taylor - Yes, there was a CSI episode about this, and it's interesting to note that a fur was on the production team of that particular episode - he spoke out about the stereotyping and how furs weren't like that, and was promptly canned.

Furs ARE NOT like what's on that episode. It's notorious in the furry community as both a jest, and a horror-fest.

[HelenW]

As for me I have to say that I would not be cool with a CD man in a womans restroom, restrooms are not for me seperated by what you are wearing, if your a man wearing a dress or not, I don't want a man in the ladies room with my daughter, wife,  mother etc. Not cool at all to me. Of course in reality I would not know if they are CD or TS, but the CD guy knows he is a guy and should give this respect to the women and stay out of their space.

So where should a cross dressed person go to the bathroom?  At home, where they belong?

I'm sorry but your opinion, if carried to its logical conclusion, stuffs CD'ers into the closet and I don't feel that should be done.  Should crossed dressed people respect the conventions and customs of the space they're in?  Of course!  And if they don't then they deserve whatever sanctions are appropriate but if they do, then they aren't any threat to anyone and should have the right to pee in peace.

helen

[stephanie_craxford]

As for me I have to say that I would not be cool with a CD man in a womans restroom, restrooms are not for me seperated by what you are wearing, if your a man wearing a dress or not, I don't want a man in the ladies room with my daughter, wife,  mother etc. Not cool at all to me. Of course in reality I would not know if they are CD or TS, but the CD guy knows he is a guy and should give this respect to the women and stay out of their space.

So where should a cross dressed person go to the bathroom?  At home, where they belong?

I'm sorry but your opinion, if carried to its logical conclusion, stuffs CD'ers into the closet and I don't feel that should be done.  Should crossed dressed people respect the conventions and customs of the space they're in?  Of course!  And if they don't then they deserve whatever sanctions are appropriate but if they do, then they aren't any threat to anyone and should have the right to pee in peace.

helen

This opens a whole can of worms over who should be allowed to use which washrooms.  In the perfect world I guess it wouldn't matter if everyone used the same washroom... guys, girls, women, men, teens, tweens, children, seniors... what difference does it make as the only reason that person is in the washroom is to pass waste products from their body, may be adjust some clothing, personal grooming needs, maybe it's that time of the month, etc. etc.

BUT this is not a perfect world, and I'm only speaking from my own perspective.  If you are a male then you should be using male facilities.  If you are female then you should be using female facilities.  Now I don't wish to seem callous or unfeeling towards CD's, and to be fair to Taylor Helen, Taylor didn't say "At home, where they belong?", nor did he infer that, but I have to agree with him in that a male CD should not be using designated female washrooms.  Personally I would feel very uncomfortable knowing there was a male the same facilities as women.  While the male may be perfectly innocent in what they are doing I can imagine the uproar of that person being discovered cross-dressed in that same washroom as little girls.  Not a good scene.

Just my thoughts.

Steph

[HelenW]

Personally I would feel very uncomfortable knowing there was a male the same facilities as women.  While the male may be perfectly innocent in what they are doing I can imagine the uproar of that person being discovered cross-dressed in that same washroom as little girls.

But how do you define a "male?"  There's the rub!  We've all seen enough discussion on that point to know that it's nigh impossible.

I submit that as long as the person is behaving in a socially acceptable manner how would you know if he or she were an early transition transsexual or "just" a cross dresser?  It's the behaviour that defines things.  If the person cross dresses just to peek between the cracks in the doors then he will soon be found out and he will rightly be sanctioned in some way, hopefully arrested.  Such persons should be very painfully discouraged from repeating that sort of behaviour.

and to be fair to Taylor Helen, Taylor didn't say "At home, where they belong?"

And no, of course Taylor did not say that, it was just what I suggest is the logical conclusion to his opinion.  I say that because we all know what the probable result of a cross dressed male in a public men's restroom would be.  If public female and male restrooms are out of the question then the home or against a tree somewhere in the public's eye are the only other options, I would think.  Urinating, or worse, defecating in places where you can be discovered will get you arrested as well as outed and posibly beaten.  That leaves staying or going home to go to the bathroom as the only other option.

Meine zwei pfennig,
helen

[stephanie_craxford]

I submit that as long as the person is behaving in a socially acceptable manner how would you know if he or she were an early transition transsexual or "just" a cross dresser?  It's the behaviour that defines things.  If the person cross dresses just to peek between the cracks in the doors then he will soon be found out and he will rightly be sanctioned in some way, hopefully arrested.  Such persons should be very painfully discouraged from repeating that sort of behaviour.

Hense the "can of worms"

Steph

[beth]

                       The problem is, a crossdresser will be defined as anyone who does not pass well. That will be the criteria and people will see eyes peering out of the stall even if they are not.




beth

[taylor]

Helen,

Don't you think instead of women having to accept a male in their bathroom, that there should be serious consequencies for any male that would bash another male in the mens room?  Why not fight for the right to urinate in whatever clothes a man wants to wear without being at risk of violence?  To me that is the logical conclusion.  Instead of crossing the rights of women,, how about enforcing the rights of CD's? No it might not be easy, but easy is not alway, well heck, often not, the right route to go. ( my opinion anyway)

Now as for how you define the male... a cross dresser is telling you that they are male,  and if they are not claiming to be female, then what are they doing claiming female space??? It is not about the actual methods of determination that are a point here, the case and point here is that the "male" identity is both already established and not challenged by the individual or the law, or others.

Well just my thoughts here... absolutely believe that all people have rights to public restrooms!

Peace,
Taylor

[Shana A]

There's too many gray areas in the definition of woman or man. Many folks who live as one gender haven't opted for full surgical change to the other, etc. Who is going to decide who can go in which restroom? Rather than enforcing who is allowed in each, I'd advocate there being a third restroom available for anyone who identified as neither, or who didn't feel safe using the one that others might categorize them as fitting into.

zythyra

[HelenW]

I think it's a very good idea to fight for tolerance in bothe sex's bathrooms but the reality is such that the liklihood of violence is, I would think, greater in a men's toilet.

Now as for how you define the male... a cross dresser is telling you that they are male,  and if they are not claiming to be female, then what are they doing claiming female space???

A crossdresser is by self-definition male but from what I understand of the phenomenon, when they are out en femme they are expressing their femininity and as such are "being" female albeit for only a short time.  So I suppose they wish to claim the space on the basis of their presentation on a part time basis.  I still don't see a problem with that unless they ignorantly or wilfully transgress the gender role and out themselves, like peeing standing up.

There's too many gray areas in the definition of woman or man. Many folks who live as one gender haven't opted for full surgical change to the other, etc. Who is going to decide who can go in which restroom? Rather than enforcing who is allowed in each, I'd advocate there being a third restroom available for anyone who identified as neither, or who didn't feel safe using the one that others might categorize them as fitting into.

zythyra

This seems to be the most viable solution, albeit still a rare one.  But it's becoming more and more common.  The Thruway rest stop between my town and where my support group meets has one and it's very nice, both when I go en femme and when my spouse needs to use it because I can assist her even if I'm en homme.


Posted on: September 28, 2006, 06:30:15 PMThe Transgender Law Center website has an informative document (large .pdf file, be forewarned) that covers the restroom issue for transgendered people.  I recommend it to all who are concerned.

www.transgenderlawcenter.org/pdf/pipguide.pdf

[Julie_in_MT]

That is so disgustingly horrable!!

First, I would have ran after the two women and would have at least attempted to comfort them.
The server would have then recieved a violent verbal assult.
Is this Dayton as in Ohio??? This sort of thing can and does happen everywhere in the U.S. but Ohio is the most intolerhant anti-trans states in the union.
This incident does nothing for Ohio's reputation or lack there of.
This sort of thing just makes my blood boil and makes me want to vomit!!!

Julie

[Rana]

There was a post in Susans some while ago about a "cross dresser"  going into a womans restroom - wearing a dress maybe, but apparently talking as a man, standing up to pee and attempting to engage women there in conversation.
Now, that would be totally unacceptable and if my wife or daughter had to put up with that I would take extreme objection.
Yet, it all comes down to presentation - if you present as a woman, sounding & acting, keeping to yourself - who could possible take exception.  There are men cross dressers or TS  that dont look all that convincing,  but sadly there are genuine women who don't also.
I find myself observing women much more closely these days - always at the back of my mind, "would I be able to?  could I?? "

Rana

[nonie]

Hey, Columbus OH isn't a *horrible* place to be trans.  I have said before and still do think it'd be safer and more comfortable to transition in my home state of Minnesota, but I have an openly lesbian couple, an androgyne, and a transitioning MTF girl my age for neighbors and I live in an average kind of suburb, nowhere near campus or the gay district.  Nobody has bothered them.  The lady who runs my support group and will probably be my therapist has been working with TGs since the 70s.  And Ohio State tries to be a very liberal campus - not all the students are, but the administration and staff are fully supportive.

[Ricki]

I have two thoughts what if the rest rooms were unisex, and only one person at a time could use them, i've been in places where you yes have to wait but when its your turn you turn the occupied sign, lock the door do your business in privacy and leave.. But alas this is in a perspective, there are to many arguments stadiums, large places, etc.. I know wishful thinking!
Secondly i have yet to be in a position where someone or couples or groups have been outted or made fun of or abused in public, but i assure you kind folks of this, as non transitioning i go out male i am not large but fit for my size and did have 8 years military trianing, having said that i do not especially like violence so i am not advocating i would be physically violent but i would certainly intervene or let my opinion be known or leave or something to offset if like in this case a waitress was rude to two women who were potentially mtf in public dressed!  i do not like restaurants for other reasons too many unknowns that occur in the back of the house - poor handwashing or no handwashing, foods not stroed or cooked right, spoiled foods being used or cooked?  I know i am paranoid!
R

[zombiesarepeaceful]

agh..ohio..