Rash feelings with non-transsexual transgendered people?

[barbie]

I think it has been a subject for philosophical debates during the past 2,000 years: Nominalism vs. Realism.

http://www.theologicalstudies.org/nominalism_realism.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11090c.htm

[Caroline]

Looking at wikipedia, the term "crossdresser" is rather undefined.  It seems that it can include anyone who crossdresses but who does not want to change their body medically and does not do it as an impersonation, acting role, masquerade or the like.  Seems like it is a catch all category that covers fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s and people who identify as the other gender but do not plan to transition medically.  There is the statement that crossdressers may not identify as the other gender, but not that they do not identify as the other gender.  So maybe some of the contention lies in that the term "crossdresser" is not specific enough, and when one person hears it they think part-time, non-op TS, while another thinks fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-.

There are other options, a CD who is cisgender identified isn't necessarily a fetishist.  It's often lost in these discussions that some CDs are just men wanting to express their femininity.  Since they often feel they can't do that in their daily lives (how many CDs are men in high pressure jobs, trying to support a family, it seems quite a lot) they have periods of CDing to embrace their feminine 'side'.  It's perfectly possible to be a totally male identified CD without any fetishtic/sexual component.  There's nothing fetishtic about being a feminine man!
(not that I think you were implying otherwise, I just think it's worth stating)

[Lisbeth]

I think it has been a subject for philosophical debates during the past 2,000 years: Nominalism vs. Realism.

http://www.theologicalstudies.org/nominalism_realism.html
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/11090c.htm

Cleaver, Barbie.  I salute you.

I have always viewed it as preposterous to imagine an "ideal model" existing in some nebulous other dimension.  That makes me solidly a Nominalist.  And that is consistent with my inductive rather than deductive reasoning style.  There are no "ideal" TSs or TGs, only individuals who label themselves "TS" or "TG."  And so there is no real dividing line; it is all reification, acting like an imaginary thing really exists.

Lisbeth

[glendagladwitch]

Looking at wikipedia, the term "crossdresser" is rather undefined.  It seems that it can include anyone who crossdresses but who does not want to change their body medically and does not do it as an impersonation, acting role, masquerade or the like.  Seems like it is a catch all category that covers fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-s and people who identify as the other gender but do not plan to transition medically.  There is the statement that crossdressers may not identify as the other gender, but not that they do not identify as the other gender.  So maybe some of the contention lies in that the term "crossdresser" is not specific enough, and when one person hears it they think part-time, non-op TS, while another thinks fetishistic ->-bleeped-<-.

There are other options, a CD who is cisgender identified isn't necessarily a fetishist.  It's often lost in these discussions that some CDs are just men wanting to express their femininity.  Since they often feel they can't do that in their daily lives (how many CDs are men in high pressure jobs, trying to support a family, it seems quite a lot) they have periods of CDing to embrace their feminine 'side'.  It's perfectly possible to be a totally male identified CD without any fetishtic/sexual component.  There's nothing fetishtic about being a feminine man!
(not that I think you were implying otherwise, I just think it's worth stating)

OK.  I was not aware of that.  So is it for stress relief, like when a person who has to boss people around at work goes home and is submissive with their spouse?  I'm not trying to say it is a fetish like S&M, but I've known some people in the D&S community who are like that, and it is not for sex.  So I'm just trying to relate it to some things I already know about.

But I can see it might be confusing if there is this "feminine side" that can't be expressed in a socially acceptable way, it can lead to stress.  So, in that case, the crossdressing might have the effect of relieving the stress, while the strss relief is not the primary motivation.

It might be hard to work out the motivation for it.  So I guess I'm asking whether "feminine side" essentially means "submissive side" in this instance, and crossdressing is the modus operandi for the submission ritual.  If so, then I can see why some who identify as female might have difficulty associating with someone playing into a gender stereotype in that way.  So I want us to have a clear understanding of what the spectrum is, if it is possible, so we can confront real issues and dispel myths.

[Caroline]

OK.  I was not aware of that.  So is it for stress relief, like when a person who has to boss people around at work goes home and is submissive with their spouse?  I'm not trying to say it is a fetish like S&M, but I've known some people in the D&S community who are like that, and it is not for sex.  So I'm just trying to relate it to some things I already know about.

But I can see it might be confusing if there is this "feminine side" that can't be expressed in a socially acceptable way, it can lead to stress.  So, in that case, the crossdressing might have the effect of relieving the stress, while the strss relief is not the primary motivation.

It might be hard to work out the motivation for it.  So I guess I'm asking whether "feminine side" essentially means "submissive side" in this instance, and crossdressing is the modus operandi for the submission ritual.  If so, then I can see why some who identify as female might have difficulty associating with someone playing into a gender stereotype in that way.  So I want us to have a clear understanding of what the spectrum is, if it is possible, so we can confront real issues and dispel myths.

Not everyone associates masculinity with dominance and femininity with submission...

"If so, then I can see why some who identify as female might have difficulty associating with someone playing into a gender stereotype in that way."  Somebody expressing a facet of their self is not necessarily playing into a stereotype.  That's a criticism m2f transsexuals are often of the receiving end of too!

[glendagladwitch]

OK.  But I still don't understand, so please let me ask some more questions.  I think I recall that some CDs crossdress for relaxation as opposed to sexual arousal.  I think that is maybe why I am thinking about the stress relief angle.  Is it for relaxation then?  If so, is it an especially strong sense of relaxation?  Is there a sense of compulsion involved?  No, I'm not talking about forced crossdressing for humiliation (which I think is on the fetish side, if I'm not mistaken).  I just mean is it not really optional?

When I hear the explanation of indulging one's feminine side while still identifying as a man, it conjures visions of just wanting to feel pretty once in a while and enjoy the same kinds of frivolous things a lot of women enjoy.  Is that all it is?  If so, it would seem like something that could be easily put permanently aside.  If not, it would seem to be either some sort of psychological addiction, or a facet of one's identity that can only be neglected for so long.

On the other hand, if it is a compulsive putting aside and escape from the male gender role because it is uncomfortable, well that is gender dysphoria.  In response to that, one can embrace many stereotypically hyper feminine behaviors that one might not find appealling on a daily basis.  If that is what we are talking about, then I think the difference between the feelings that kind of CD and the feelings of a TS are sort of a matter of degree or progress along a common path.

[Lisbeth]

This is the point at which I can provide actual information instead of speculation.  The World Health Organization (WHO) provides a diagnostic manual, the International Catalog of Diseases version 10 (ICD-10), which is more accurate in it's information about GID than the DSM-IV is.  The ICD-10 provides the following three categories:

F64.0   Transsexualism 
A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex. 

(Lisbeth note: Please, see the word "usually," not "always.")

F64.1   Dual-role transvestism
The wearing of clothes of the opposite sex for part of the individual's existence in order to enjoy the temporary experience of membership of the opposite sex, but without any desire for a more permanent sex change or associated surgical reassignment, and without sexual excitement accompanying the cross-dressing. 
Gender identity disorder of adolescence or adulthood, nontranssexual type
Excludes:  fetishistic transvestism ( F65.1 )

F65.1   Fetishistic transvestism 
The wearing of clothes of the opposite sex principally to obtain sexual excitement and to create the appearance of a person of the opposite sex. Fetishistic transvestism is distinguished from transsexual transvestism by its clear association with sexual arousal and the strong desire to remove the clothing once orgasm occurs and sexual arousal declines. It can occur as an earlier phase in the development of transsexualism. 
Transvestic fetishism

http://www.who.int/classifications/apps/icd/icd10online/

Lisbeth

[Chrissty]

On the other hand, if it is a compulsive putting aside and escape from the male gender role because it is uncomfortable, well that is gender dysphoria.  In response to that, one can embrace many stereotypically hyper feminine behaviors that one might not find appealling on a daily basis.  If that is what we are talking about, then I think the difference between the feelings that kind of CD and the feelings of a TS are sort of a matter of degree or progress along a common path.

Maybe I can explain...In this discussion I would be identified as CD, but I know in my heart that I am TS. So I guess I am a classic case of TS stuck in an emotional prison where I cannot move for fear of hurting those around me. I say emotional, because I know if it were not for my responsibility to my family, I have the money and would blow it on every treatment going tomorrow... and still have enough to buy a new house, and live without working for around 5 to 8 years.

The fact is, that I am either too weak or too strong (I really don't know which). I'm not about to commit suicide , but this s**t is ripping me apart from within...and I can live with that... because I would give my life for my children, or to save them from someone else who would threaten them. OK there probably will come a time soon when I put my needs higher on my agenda, and they will meet the other side of me, but that is not right now.

But, I've still got to survive, and feed the compulsion to express my inner being, so I am here. Chrissty exists in the shadows, slowly working out that "stress" that seems so difficult to understand, trying to work out the way ahead, trying to help others, and by doing so finding myself.

I was able to live with the label TG, but somehow here CD,TV, or TS don't seem to work for people like me anymore...are there any suggestions where I/we should go? Is TG really such a bad umbrella to exist under?

Chrissty

[Caroline]

When I hear the explanation of indulging one's feminine side while still identifying as a man, it conjures visions of just wanting to feel pretty once in a while and enjoy the same kinds of frivolous things a lot of women enjoy.  Is that all it is?  If so, it would seem like something that could be easily put permanently aside.  If not, it would seem to be either some sort of psychological addiction, or a facet of one's identity that can only be neglected for so long.

On the other hand, if it is a compulsive putting aside and escape from the male gender role because it is uncomfortable, well that is gender dysphoria.  In response to that, one can embrace many stereotypically hyper feminine behaviors that one might not find appealling on a daily basis.  If that is what we are talking about, then I think the difference between the feelings that kind of CD and the feelings of a TS are sort of a matter of degree or progress along a common path.

If you define gender dysphoria and transsexuality as simply being too feminine to live comfortably in 'male role' (for mtfs) or being too masculine to live comfortably in 'female role' (for ftms) then yes CDing* and being TS would seem to be on a continuum. 

However don't a lot of transsexuals experience dysphoria that's nothing to do with social constraints?  Are all body dysphoria and percieved hormonal issues the result of underlying social dysphoria?  Personally I don't believe that's so.  There are masculine mtfs and feminine ftms, their existence can't be explained by assuming social issues are the root problem.  It seems to me that there are other factors at work (along the lines of the brain sex theory), though the etiology hasn't yet been proven yet.

* I really should have said "CDing soley for the purpose of expressing ones femininity of masculinity and being TS..."

[Ell]

On the other hand, if it is a compulsive putting aside and escape from the male gender role because it is uncomfortable, well that is gender dysphoria.  In response to that, one can embrace many stereotypically hyper feminine behaviors that one might not find appealling on a daily basis.  If that is what we are talking about, then I think the difference between the feelings that kind of CD and the feelings of a TS are sort of a matter of degree or progress along a common path.

Maybe I can explain...In this discussion I would be identified as CD, but I know in my heart that I am TS. So I guess I am a classic case of TS stuck in an emotional prison where I cannot move for fear of hurting those around me. I say emotional, because I know if it were not for my responsibility to my family, I have the money and would blow it on every treatment going tomorrow... and still have enough to buy a new house, and live without working for around 5 to 8 years.

The fact is, that I am either too weak or too strong (I really don't know which). I'm not about to commit suicide , but this s**t is ripping me apart from within...and I can live with that... because I would give my life for my children, or to save them from someone else who would threaten them. OK there probably will come a time soon when I put my needs higher on my agenda, and they will meet the other side of me, but that is not right now.

But, I've still got to survive, and feed the compulsion to express my inner being, so I am here. Chrissty exists in the shadows, slowly working out that "stress" that seems so difficult to understand, trying to work out the way ahead, trying to help others, and by doing so finding myself.

I was able to live with the label TG, but somehow here CD,TV, or TS don't seem to work for people like me anymore...are there any suggestions where I/we should go? Is TG really such a bad umbrella to exist under?

Chrissty

Hi Chrissty,

reactions such as yours are exactly why threads of this nature seem so unfair.

this is a support site, you come here for support, and you get this.

what's next? sewing patches on people's sleeves?

-Ell

[Chrissty]

Hi Ell,

Thank you for your concern, I'm not upset, I got over that a
couple of days ago.

I just want the folks here to realise that we are all people, and
we do not conform to convenient categories or stereotypes.

Never was any good at sewing though....

Chrissty

[NicholeW.]

Christty,



O, sweetie. You are strong.

You don't have to sew to be female!! 

More people do what you are doing than they are willing to admit. They want to make sure they fall into the "right" etiology.

The right etiology is the one that applies to you. Period!!

But there's this dirty little MTF-TS (the guys not much at all, so I've found) open secret. We have to tell one story to be valid. Fudigdabowdid!! One story never has told the truth about a conglomeration of folks, never will.



Nichole

[Kate]

However don't a lot of transsexuals experience dysphoria that's nothing to do with social constraints?

(raises hand)

Oh, and.... thank you for asking

~Kate~

[joannatsf]

Christty,

In another thread I said that I use at least 3 labels, femal, TG and TS.  It depends on the circumstance and who I'm talking to.  I think I really prefer the the TG designation even though I live full time and have done the legal stuff.  Surgery may or may not be in my future.  There are a number of variables, some of which I have no control over.

You're not alone in putting commitments to others ahead of your own needs and it certainly doesn't diminish you in my eyes.  Your time will come. 

[TheBattler]

OK.  But I still don't understand, so please let me ask some more questions.  I think I recall that some CDs crossdress for relaxation as opposed to sexual arousal.  I think that is maybe why I am thinking about the stress relief angle.  Is it for relaxation then?  If so, is it an especially strong sense of relaxation?  Is there a sense of compulsion involved?  No, I'm not talking about forced crossdressing for humiliation (which I think is on the fetish side, if I'm not mistaken).  I just mean is it not really optional?

Most people will CD for stress relief and relaxation. I would even say that sexual angle is part of the same senerio, being able to relax within to make them feel better. You are become female for exactly the same reason, to releive the stress of being male. It is all to relieve the same kind of preasure. Those CDs soming find a way to live with the two lives where a TS person wants to get rid of the constant struggle with their two selves.

*rushes of to work*

Alice

[glendagladwitch]

as tekla said in another thread, for cd's the focus is on the clothes. 

I just think that is way oversimplified and entirely inaccurate with regard to a lot of CDs.

Posted on: August 05, 2008, 10:54:53 PM

However don't a lot of transsexuals experience dysphoria that's nothing to do with social constraints?

(raises hand)

Oh, and.... thank you for asking

~Kate~

Good point.  Experiencing horror upon manifestation of the ability to grow a beard, etc. is a bit of a dead giveaway for TS status, I think.  If a "CD" experienced that, would it mean they are not CD?  What if they presently express no plan to physically transition?

Posted on: August 05, 2008, 10:58:57 PMOne more thing, I am pretty sure it is possible to be all about female clothes without being a crossdresser.  I knew one guy who could only be aroused by female clothes having certain feel and textures, but he did not crossdress at all.  He just used it as a sex partner.  So I think the compulsion to put on the clothes speaks strongly of more than just an attraction to clothing of the opposite sex.

[Chrissty]

Christty,

In another thread I said that I use at least 3 labels, femal, TG and TS.  It depends on the circumstance and who I'm talking to.  I think I really prefer the the TG designation even though I live full time and have done the legal stuff.  Surgery may or may not be in my future.  There are a number of variables, some of which I have no control over.

You're not alone in putting commitments to others ahead of your own needs and it certainly doesn't diminish you in my eyes.  Your time will come. 

Thank you for your kind words Claire.

I'm not really too worried about a label that others may apply to me in passing, it goes with the territory, and deep down I know what I am....The problem only starts when the label is used as grounds to separate, or exclude.

As suggested by Nichole, I think there are many more people living with true TS compulsion under the CD banner than might be imagined, and even more stay hidden totally in the general public. I know that part of me has lived in that way, walking around but "trapped" in total isolation for well over 30 years.

In that time however, even when living totally as my male side, I now realise that I was still "seeing" the world through Chrissty's eyes; then switching the gender viewpoint in my head before acting.

This is why I am really indebted the Guys on this site, they are the ones that in the last 2 months have lead me to a much deeper understanding of myself, because we have shared the struggled to be men. I really hope they all succeed better than I have.....



Chrissty

[glendagladwitch]

The problem only starts when the label is used as grounds to separate, or exclude.

I think that we have our own little tower of babel going on here with the label ontology, differences of opinion about what they describe, misunderstandings about the underlying behavior/motivation combinations, relationships between the combinations, potential for coexistence of multiple combinations in the same individual, etc.  And then the strife stems from peoples' innate need to oversimplify and categorize things, such as the judgement that it is either all about clothes or all about gender identity.  But look at how gender identity was defined in the inclusive ENDA:

GENDER IDENTITY- The term `gender identity' means the gender-related identity, appearance, or mannerisms or other gender-related characteristics of an individual, with or without regard to the individual's designated sex at birth.

Sounds like Gender Idenity is being used there to include Gender Expression, but might leave out Intersexed.

And then also the way it is used in Miss Lisbeff's post above from the DSM, where Dual Role Transvestism is categorized as a gender identity disorder.

So any of these terms can be used in many different ways, and we constantly have to ask, "What do you mean by that?"  The discussion always yields differences of opinion about the categories and meanings of labels, and strife is inevitable.  So I think the term Transgender is especially useful as an uber inclusive category for all things gender aberrant.  It avoids revealing those inevitable differences of opinion.  And we can all get together and make a list of the things we all need and fight, as a group, for getting all of those things.  And then, of course, it is really not helpful when someone in the group pipes up and says, "I don't want to fight for that thing this other person needs because I don't need it, I think it is morally wrong, and I don't want the recognition of my rights to be contingent on the recognition of that other right for that other person."  But we do see that happen a lot.

even when living totally as my male side, I now realise that I was still "seeing" the world through Chrissty's eyes; then switching the gender viewpoint in my head before acting.

I think we call that "the male mask." 

[glendagladwitch]

Good point.  Experiencing horror upon manifestation of the ability to grow a beard, etc. is a bit of a dead giveaway for TS status, I think.  If a "CD" experienced that, would it mean they are not CD?  What if they presently express no plan to physically transition?

Posted on: August 05, 2008, 10:58:57 PMOne more thing, I am pretty sure it is possible to be all about female clothes without being a crossdresser.  I knew one guy who could only be aroused by female clothes having certain feel and textures, but he did not crossdress at all.  He just used it as a sex partner.  So I think the compulsion to put on the clothes speaks strongly of more than just an attraction to clothing of the opposite sex.

your key word is arousal.  once again, it not about the clothing!

ts's are not aroused by clothing.   its not a fetish.  i am as much a woman in a suit as i am in a dress.  do i want my outside appearance congruent?  of course.  and a part of that is done through choice of clothing.

but if i couldnt dress the part -- for whatever reason -- i would still be a woman. 

But my point was that a lot of CDs are not aroused by the clothing either.  And that at least some of those who are do not wear the clothes.  So why is it that CDs who wear the clothes but are not aroused by it are "all about the clothing?"  Seems to me there must be more to it.

[NicholeW.]

Women, regardless their etiology, do get aroused by their own clothing. Ya wanna look sexy? be inviting? you see yourself as arousing? Feel just a bit aroused when you're dressed to the nines? That never seems to arise in these discussions.

So what if you're trans and get "aroused" when you dress-up? Like the texture of a fabric against your nipples or your clit or such? Do we truly think other women don't? How laughable!

You'd think the point of trans is simply a journey into abstinence and asceticism! Get real, folks!

The main problem with all this theorizing, from Ray Blanchard to Pogo, is that we tend to ignore certain natural qualities of sexuality and the ways in which people see themselves; that, and we never make those clear distinctions between "gender" and "sexuality."

Sorry, silk and satin feel good against a body, why do ya think we dress and use them for bed clothes so much?

Nichole

P.S. O, come to think it, so do cotton, linen, rayon, even wool on occasions!