Nobody's Manhood is more challenged than ours

[Nero]

I mean seriously, what could be worse than to be saddled with a female body? To be treated as female, to wear bras and tampons. I mean there is no lower degradation.
My dad is a great man, a real man's man but I can see him with his rifle to his temple if he'd been saddled with this.
I mean really, there is no possible worse position for a man to be in. If you cut all the PC, feminist crap, you know what I'm talking about.

And we cope however we can, we go out and prove ourselves financially, sexually, etc. We live the lives of the outlaw, of the Don Juan. Because we've got to be Superman. What else can we do?

Anybody feel me?

[icontact]

I feel you brother.

[Adam]

I hear you bro. It sometimes feels like everything is out to futher damage my already insulted manhood, especially when I got my period. Feels like I have to do a lot to restore it to what it should be. And I'll do any little thing to bring it up.

[Ell]

since we're not going to be politically correct, i don't see how you can say "manhood" as if it were something so noble and sacred. nor "womanhood", for that matter.

i mean, we're talking about "people" here right? running around in our small unimportant lives, and being made to "feel" yet even smaller by so-called "important" people.

oh wait, maybe i'm not even on topic. nevermind.

-ell

[Nicky]

From the perspective of someone that can not and does not want to live up to male expectations yet is expected too, I feel you. masculinity seems to me as something that compels you to meet a certain standard just to measure up. Percieved failings in some areas seems to force you to overcompensate in others to try to get in through special dispensation.

Seems to me it is a prison of mass insecurity. Everyone is always commenting that I must be very secure in my masculinity to wear what I wear. The reality is I am just very secure in my lack of masculinity.

[Nero]

since we're not going to be politically correct, i don't see how you can say "manhood" as if it were something so noble and sacred. nor "womanhood", for that matter.

i mean, we're talking about "people" here right? running around in our small unimportant lives, and being made to "feel" yet even smaller by so-called "important" people.

oh wait, maybe i'm not even on topic. nevermind.

-ell

Count on my Ellie to bust my balls. 

[Lukas-H]

since we're not going to be politically correct, i don't see how you can say "manhood" as if it were something so noble and sacred. nor "womanhood", for that matter.

What, in fact, is /their/ concept of 'manhood' is what I am wondering. To all you FtM's, what makes a man? What makes YOU a man? I'm not trying to challenge any of you, I just want to fulfill a curiosity.

I do have to agree with Nero, if you are an FtM, other men and women are going to put you under the microscope all-the-time. The opposite is true for MtFs but I find that there is a gradually increasing positive attitude and acceptance for MtFs, moreso than FtMs.

[tekla]

Men, put men under the gun, under the microscope all the time.  You prove yourself every day.  What you did yesterday was just history.  Question is?  Do you have my back today?

[Elwood]

Man, I don't know.

You're right, though. Do I think being a woman is degradation? No. I think that's a pretty misogynistic view. But it is hard to be manly and be a man when you're so full of woman. You know it, I know it.

No bio man do I know would be able to handle this. Well, my dad, maybe. He's a very smart guy. High genius IQ and all that. He'd either go crazy or find a way. I mean, I guess we don't give the bio guys enough credit; we have a beef with them. They got something we don't, and then they go and bitch about it. "I wish my penis was bigger," says he. He's got a 4 incher and a fair girth. I want to slap the dick right off of him. "You think 4 inches isn't enough? Try having none, and a hole instead. Then tell me it's too small."

And you're right. No man would like this. We know that ourselves. Men born as women. It's like a horrible nightmare. It'd make a good thriller movie flick. But it's just fracked up that it happens to real people. Fracked up beyond belief.

I don't feel like I gotta be a Superman. But boy, am I hard on this poor female body. It isn't made to do the things I try to make it do. I feel sorry for it, as if my body weren't a part of myself. Before I decided to transition, I told my body, "I can't do this to you. You're wrong, but you've never wronged me. What, body, did you do to deserve this treatment from me?" That's one reason I haven't been a cutter. I just can't punish my body for being the way it is. But I decided mutually, with my body, of course, that it would be best if I made these changes, for the both of us. Then hopefully we can be whole again, like normal, civilized people.

Posted on: September 01, 2008, 07:58:57 PM

What, in fact, is /their/ concept of 'manhood' is what I am wondering. To all you FtM's, what makes a man? What makes YOU a man? I'm not trying to challenge any of you, I just want to fulfill a curiosity.

I do have to agree with Nero, if you are an FtM, other men and women are going to put you under the microscope all-the-time. The opposite is true for MtFs but I find that there is a gradually increasing positive attitude and acceptance for MtFs, moreso than FtMs.

Both manhood and womanhood are sacred to me. It's one reason I hesitated transition. "Women are a symbol of baring life... they're loving and nurturing people... and I want to go over there and be a dog of a man?" I felt like I was going from tranquil beauty to unforgivable slime. "Men are wolves, men are wolves."

A man to me... well, it's a pretty fundamental definition. Man is a male-identified person. Male is the biological, the body. I will never be 100% male. I can get sort of close, but... I'll still always have parts of me that are female. Post transition, I'll be intersexed in look and feel (when it comes to the genitals, at least). I'm not too happy about that, but... well, it's better than nothing.

I hate how a lot of FtMs think a man is "manly." Buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy, nipples so hot they burn a hole in your shirt, a dick so large you can trip a whole Congo line with it. All of this stuff doesn't make a man. Minus the dick and you've got a "tough person." A woman can be all of those things, too. That is not enough to be a man. If she is female-identified, she is a buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy woman with nipples so hot they burn a hole in her shirt.

I hate the stereotypes. That's why the guys I want to be like/look like are not wrestlers, big buff men or anything like that.

Michael Dillon, the first transmale, is quite satisfactory. He ain't no coal miner.



But I'd also really love a body like Jamie Bamber's. You can tell he works pretty hard in the gym.



But most of all, I want to be an average guy. Somewhat tall, definitely not short. I'd like to be average sized, average build, average look, average everything. If I want muscle, I'll work for some. But I don't want to be some ripped gym machine. It's not gonna happen. And as far as having a dick goes, I'd give to have a normal dick. Even a small one. But something. I'm not going to be picky about "it has to be 6 inches." Frack that! It's a stupid thing to whine about, in my opinion.

Posted on: September 01, 2008, 08:06:42 PM

Masculinity seems to me as something that compels you to meet a certain standard just to measure up. Percieved failings in some areas seems to force you to overcompensate in others to try to get in through special dispensation.

That's totally how I feel. Like I have to puff out my chest to make up for being short. If I was female, a guy would find it sexy that I'm 5'3".

[Lukas-H]

I hate how a lot of FtMs think a man is "manly." Buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy, nipples so hot they burn a hole in your shirt, a dick so large you can trip a whole Congo line with it. All of this stuff doesn't make a man. Minus the dick and you've got a "tough person." A woman can be all of those things, too. That is not enough to be a man. If she is female-identified, she is a buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy woman with nipples so hot they burn a hole in her shirt.

I hate the stereotypes. That's why the guys I want to be like/look like are not wrestlers, big buff men or anything like that.

I hate the stereotypes too, along with the ones that exist for women, which makes it harder for MtF's and bio-women to be what they really are without feeling pressured to live up to standards that are arbitrary at best.

"Nipples so hot they burn a hole in their shirt" Wow, where did you get that line!? Never heard it, that's pretty awesome, lol.

While I can't help but harbor a strong dislike for the stereotypes you've mentioned, at the same time, they have a personal allure for me that I don't understand, I just know I'm immensely attracted to the big, buff muscles (but not crazy steroids, meh) the hairiness, and other stereotypical traits of masculinity.

I'm 100% with you on the fact that those 'masculine' traits you mentioned don't make a man, neither does a penis; thanks for offering your insight.

Posted on: September 02, 2008, 02:21:23 AM

That's totally how I feel. Like I have to puff out my chest to make up for being short. If I was female, a guy would find it sexy that I'm 5'3".

I feel you on the shortness, I'm about that same height too, and if you're like me, very independent and loathe to ask for help unless you absolutely need it, you end up asking for it a lot more than you want because of being 'vertically challenged' lol. To most, small=cute, which is a huge thorn in your side if that's not the kind of aura you want to project. I got no problem with shorter men though, I've known some pretty hot ones that were about my height or just a little bit taller but no where near six feet.

[Jay]

I hear you brother!

[Andrew]

I feel like I've become a lot more secure with my malehood now that I've been transitioned and on T for a while. I used to avoid all girly stuff because I had to prove myself as a man. Now that I'm done with all the proving, I can sit back and relax more. I find myself doing stereotypically "girly" stuff that I used to avoid. So what if someone challenges my manhood? I'll laugh at them! Or flirt with them or kick their ass. (Sorry, I just really feel manly today.)

[Mister]

You can transition.    (and yes, Nero, I realize this is something you are medically unable to do at the present time, it was a general comment.)

There is nothing I find to be less fun to be around than a bunch of posturing.  The road to testosterone is not that difficult for the vast majority of those who properly seek it.  If you want on, get on and make your body congruent with your mind. 

and FWIW- the last time my manhood was challenged was by my girlfriend.  She's nearly my same size and weight.  We arm wrestled.  But that's probably not what you meant.

[Nero]

I mean more in terms of society in general and the whole growing up as a girl thing than anybody directly challenging us.

[Mister]

Growing up female was no more challenging to me than was my immigrant status or bum leg.  It sucks, yeah, but you do what you can to live your life despite it.

[Nero]

You're missing the point.

[Jack Daniels]

I find being a woman degrading...

[Mister]

You're missing the point.

I really don't think I am.  Growing up female sucked, yeah.  Puberty was hell.  Having everyone think I was a girl and project feminine things on me was hard.  But it was also hard to be told to go back 'where i came from' and to get out of someone else's country.  It was hard to walk with a cane when I wanted to run and jump and swim and be a teenager.  It was harder to walk with the social stigma of being a cripple.

[Nero]

You're missing the point.

I really don't think I am.  Growing up female sucked, yeah.  Puberty was hell.  Having everyone think I was a girl and project feminine things on me was hard.  But it was also hard to be told to go back 'where i came from' and to get out of someone else's country.  It was hard to walk with a cane when I wanted to run and jump and swim and be a teenager.  It was harder to walk with the social stigma of being a cripple.

But none of that other stuff had anything to do with your manhood.

Posted on: September 02, 2008, 04:50:40 PMI'll try to clarify what I mean.

I'm not talking about whether or not we can DO something about it - give our tits the axe, take T, have phallo, etc.

I'm not talking about other challenges we may have had on top of this condition - immigration/disability/racism/poverty/broken home/ or any other issues we may have faced in our lives.

I'm not even talking about transphobia or 'cock length contests' with other men.

I mean that our manhood is inherently challenged from the day we are born.

If you've never took issue with that, more power to you.

[Elwood]

I hate how a lot of FtMs think a man is "manly." Buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy, nipples so hot they burn a hole in your shirt, a dick so large you can trip a whole Congo line with it. All of this stuff doesn't make a man. Minus the dick and you've got a "tough person." A woman can be all of those things, too. That is not enough to be a man. If she is female-identified, she is a buff, strong, mean, sweaty, dirty, hairy woman with nipples so hot they burn a hole in her shirt.

I hate the stereotypes. That's why the guys I want to be like/look like are not wrestlers, big buff men or anything like that.

I hate the stereotypes too, along with the ones that exist for women, which makes it harder for MtF's and bio-women to be what they really are without feeling pressured to live up to standards that are arbitrary at best.

"Nipples so hot they burn a hole in their shirt" Wow, where did you get that line!? Never heard it, that's pretty awesome, lol.

While I can't help but harbor a strong dislike for the stereotypes you've mentioned, at the same time, they have a personal allure for me that I don't understand, I just know I'm immensely attracted to the big, buff muscles (but not crazy steroids, meh) the hairiness, and other stereotypical traits of masculinity.

I'm 100% with you on the fact that those 'masculine' traits you mentioned don't make a man, neither does a penis; thanks for offering your insight.

It sucks on both sides.

I made up that line.

I personally want to pass as a male. If I was hairless, it wouldn't kill me. I know gaining muscle is about effort an work... I am working out now and I think after T my working out will be more effective on my body. I don't want to be "buff," but I want some meat on my bones.

That's totally how I feel. Like I have to puff out my chest to make up for being short. If I was female, a guy would find it sexy that I'm 5'3".

I feel you on the shortness, I'm about that same height too, and if you're like me, very independent and loathe to ask for help unless you absolutely need it, you end up asking for it a lot more than you want because of being 'vertically challenged' lol. To most, small=cute, which is a huge thorn in your side if that's not the kind of aura you want to project. I got no problem with shorter men though, I've known some pretty hot ones that were about my height or just a little bit taller but no where near six feet.

I think even 5'4" would be better than 5'3", because 5'4" is the cut off. The shortest guy I've met who has a "normal" life is 5'4". He doesn't get teased for being 5'4". But that one inch difference makes me not just a short guy, but a REALLY short guy.

To most, small = cute, like you said. That bugs the ->-bleeped-<- out of me. I want to be 'attractive' and 'sexy' and worthwhile and all that. Stuff that gets a person excited, not a "warm and fuzzy feeling." I want to turn someone on.

Posted on: September 02, 2008, 03:32:09 PM

You can transition.    (and yes, Nero, I realize this is something you are medically unable to do at the present time, it was a general comment.)

There is nothing I find to be less fun to be around than a bunch of posturing.  The road to testosterone is not that difficult for the vast majority of those who properly seek it.  If you want on, get on and make your body congruent with your mind. 

and FWIW- the last time my manhood was challenged was by my girlfriend.  She's nearly my same size and weight.  We arm wrestled.  But that's probably not what you meant.

It hasn't been easy for me. It's like they're seeing how long it will take for me to start self injuring. I'm the only FtM I know personally that wasn't some sort of cutter or drug/alcohol/sex addicted.

Posted on: September 02, 2008, 03:34:18 PM

I find being a woman degrading...

I don't. Women are not lesser beings.

I just have a really hard time not having a penis. Sometimes I really just want to stand in front of a bus. That's how frustrated it makes me sometimes. I can deal with the rest of it; transition will fix it all. Except the part that most people THINK makes a man a man.