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Asserting Manhood: Overcompensation?

Started by Elwood, September 18, 2008, 10:36:44 AM

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Elwood

My friends in Vista know. But they're 500 miles away. I wish at least one of them was here to be with me while I transition... It's a really lonely transition.  :'(

I kind of want nurturing too right now. And aren't you 18 like me? We're boys. I mean, I use the word man a lot, but we're really still quite young. It's okay to feel like a boy. If you're older, well, you know what they say; men never grow up and all that jazz.
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Aiden

Every day we pass people, do we see them or the mask they wear?
If you live under a mask long enough, does it eventually break or wear down?  Does it become part you?  Maybe alone, they are truly themselves?  Or maybe they have forgotten or buried themselves so long, they forget they are not a mask?
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Elwood

Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 06:01:33 PMI'm 22 going on 23 next month
That's still young enough to be considered... well, not necessarily "OMG I'M ALMOST AS MANLY AS CHUCK NORRIS."
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iFindMeHere

Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 03:58:23 PM

I know their not all macho, but even the ones who are not macho I don't see bawling their eyes out all the time.  I've seen many variety of men, but I've never seen a single one of them bawling all the time and unable to control it.

I've seen mtf but thats because they take estrogen and their not men on the inside.  I've started to wonder if i am just completely screwed up.  I don't even see women that often crying as much as I do.

I cry a lot too, i am a ton of stressed out and it's a peaceful way to exhaust the emotions and get endorphins running through my system. I'm nervous about what will happen when I start T, I hear some guys say they can't cry anymore. I hope that's psychosomatic.

As far as the other thing about getting insulted... that does get tiring, doesn't it.
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Elwood

Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 18, 2008, 06:29:20 PMAs far as the other thing about getting insulted... that does get tiring, doesn't it.
Then you should misinterpret what people write less often. :]
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iFindMeHere

Quote from: Aiden on September 18, 2008, 03:40:03 PM

What the freck!  No need to sit there and accuse and insult me.  I sit there and say thank you for reminding me of this then you turn around and harp on me on how you hate it when us guys feel presured to be the sterotypical man.  cigendered men feel pressured to be the typical man as well.  My own issues is I'm more emotional than most men or women.  I cry and lose my temper several times a week, least lately have.

And don;t ever accuse me of falsifying anything.  I didn't like dresses as a a child (fact not falsification)
Peeing while standing up  (true desire, not frecking falsification)
I tend to be aggressive, (truth, not falsification)

Jeeze...  I try be nice and thank you and you go and insult me.

The Amygdala and Limbic system have to do with aggression and we know there are studies comparing Transsexual people's brains with those of cismale and cisfemale... tends to be that Transitioning folk's brains are far more similar to those of the gender we're (becoming/bringing out in a physical sense, depending on your feelings). What is the scientific seat of intuition, and do we really need to quibble over desire versus instinct? That's a philosophical debate that really seems unnecessary.

And yeah the insulting bit, it gets tired to come to a Support Site just to get blasted.
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Elwood

Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 18, 2008, 06:55:01 PMThe Amygdala and Limbic system have to do with aggression and we know there are studies comparing Transsexual people's brains with those of cismale and cisfemale... tends to be that Transitioning folk's brains are far more similar to those of the gender we're (becoming/bringing out in a physical sense, depending on your feelings). What is the scientific seat of intuition, and do we really need to quibble over desire versus instinct? That's a philosophical debate that really seems unnecessary.
This theory has yet to be proven.

Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 18, 2008, 06:55:01 PMAnd yeah the insulting bit, it gets tired to come to a Support Site just to get blasted.
If you provoke someone, they're not going to lay back and take your squabble.
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Arch

I'm just reading over what Aiden and Dan said about being or feeling like a boy. You guys are young enough that you might be able to go through a boy-to-man process, even if it's unconventional and somewhat delayed. Seems to me that it's perfectly normal for a twentysomething transguy to still feel like a boy in many ways.

On the other hand, a person can be much older than late teens/early twenties and still feel like a boy. I sure as heck do, and I generally refer to myself as a guy or a boy rather than a man. For a number of reasons, I've always felt that at least a part of me was perpetually frozen at thirteen. Considering my biological age and how long I've felt this way, I've probably been warped for life by this perception. Anyway, I honestly don't see myself as a man, and I'm not sure that I ever will. I'll have to wait and see.

I do, however, live by the creed of personal responsibility and, in most respects, I live as an adult.

I'm not always comfortable with these apparent contradictions, but they're what I have to work with.

Dan, many of the tough-guy effects that you're seeing are undoubtedly due to insecurity and essentialism, but let's go back to that "boy" concept again. If you're mostly talking about transmen who are in transition or transmen who haven't been post-transition for very long, think of them as still going through their boy phase. A lot of cisgender boys and young men go through similar phases of one-upmanship, hypermasculinity, and proving themselves--proving themselves to other guys and also to themselves. They are still situating themselves in (for lack of a better term) male society and society in general. I know you get tired of the "posing" that some transmen seem to do, and I definitely hear where you're coming from. It can be maddening.

But try to cut them a break, at least mentally. Some of them are probably trying to compensate for a boyhood that they never had, and most of them are probably still figuring out where they fit in the world. Maybe they'll settle down a bit later as they figure things out. Maybe not. But you're you and they're they. You might never see eye to eye. At least, that's my take on it.

If people hassle you because they don't think you're masculine enough or if they say that you're not a real man, then maybe that's all part of the boy culture that they're indulging in. Of course, that doesn't make it RIGHT...all you can do is stand your ground, be your own man, and lead by example--and air your views as persuasively as possible.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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kephalopod

Arch, I think you hit the nail on the head. There's intense social pressure on boys to prove themselves as men to the world at large by acting out exaggerated pantomimes of masculinity. (There's similar pressure on girls to prove themselves as women, of course, but where I grew up, at least, they were largely supposed to prove themselves to other women, whereas the boys were supposed to prove themselves to everyone. When I think about it, it was a really weird double standard.)

When you combine that "proving" phase of asserting masculinity with the fact that as FtMs, we can't empirically prove our maleness to the world at large, it becomes really easy to overdo it.

That doesn't make it right or acceptable, but I can see where they're coming from.
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Mister

I agree with much of your post, Elwood.  I have my own theory on why this male posturing is done to such extreme.  Most FTM's are previously lesbian- or dyke-identified and have very little social knowledge of men.  When there is no personal experience, people cling to stereotypes.

What I don't agree with in your post is your paragraph about people stating that they like their big hands, etc.  You've made it quite widely known that you're quite small.  Well, we all aren't.  And why should people be shamed against mentioning the things they like about their bodies?  Are you saying people shouldn't talk about their surgeries or facial hair or whatever because it's too triggering for those who simply aren't there yet?  This isn't simply a group for early transition people- it's for everyone.  If that's truly what you're looking for, ask Susan to create a board for it.  Otherwise, everyone should be free to discuss relevant topics.
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iFindMeHere

Quote from: Mister on September 18, 2008, 10:31:49 PM
I agree with much of your post, Elwood.  I have my own theory on why this male posturing is done to such extreme.  Most FTM's are previously lesbian- or dyke-identified and have very little social knowledge of men.  When there is no personal experience, people cling to stereotypes.

What I don't agree with in your post is your paragraph about people stating that they like their big hands, etc.  You've made it quite widely known that you're quite small.  Well, we all aren't.  And why should people be shamed against mentioning the things they like about their bodies?  Are you saying people shouldn't talk about their surgeries or facial hair or whatever because it's too triggering for those who simply aren't there yet?  This isn't simply a group for early transition people- it's for everyone.  If that's truly what you're looking for, ask Susan to create a board for it.  Otherwise, everyone should be free to discuss relevant topics.


*APPLAUDS*
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Elwood

Quote from: Mister on September 18, 2008, 10:31:49 PMWhat I don't agree with in your post is your paragraph about people stating that they like their big hands, etc.  You've made it quite widely known that you're quite small.  Well, we all aren't.  And why should people be shamed against mentioning the things they like about their bodies?  Are you saying people shouldn't talk about their surgeries or facial hair or whatever because it's too triggering for those who simply aren't there yet?  This isn't simply a group for early transition people- it's for everyone.  If that's truly what you're looking for, ask Susan to create a board for it.  Otherwise, everyone should be free to discuss relevant topics.
That wasn't what I was talking about. I was talking about people one-upping each other with their "more masculine" traits.

Posted on: September 18, 2008, 09:32:28 PM
Quote from: iFindMeHere on September 18, 2008, 11:07:52 PM*APPLAUDS*
You're quite done being his lap dog, right?
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GQjoey

#32
I agree with a lot of what you have to say. The whole macho thing, can get annoying. I've noticed, that most of the guys who are more vocal about it, usually, can't fight. I've seen plenty of "macho" talk a lot of s$%^ guys, get their ass kicked. At one point or another, if you're acting "so tough" someone will call you on it.
Also agree with the voice thing. It makes it more obvious to outsiders, if you try to portray a deeper voice than you really have. Gotta give it to um for trying though. I don't want to sound like I'm "one upping" anyone, but I'm grateful for having a naturual deep voice. I've been told T won't lower much than it already was. Someones always gonna be taller, have bigger hands, a flatter chest, smaller hips, etc..We could take parts of each other and forum the "perfect" male body, I'm sure.
As far as your "most annoying fabrication", guys saying they wanted a penis at 2, yeah, you're right, a two year old doesn't understand what their "gender" is much. But if you're going to tell me I'm fabricating, saying around 4-6 years old I WANTED and PRAYED for a penis, you must not truly understand how deep gender dysphoria can go. I'm not trying to "validate" I'm any more man than you, or anyone else for that matter. Simply telling MY story.
Your post had plenty of good points, but is also filled with a lot of stereotypes, and plain ignorance.
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Nero

I agree with some of what you say, but I'm afraid you're overreaching with the 'childhood falsification' part. Some of us DID have knowledge of ourselves at 2 years of age enough that our parents knew about it.
I don't think that's falsification if your mother's got stories about it.

Another thing - all guys aren't the same. Just because a guy acts differently than you do doesn't mean he's overcompensating. Some guys ARE alphas.
It reads like you're saying just because the way we're born and are estrogen soaked that we're somehow naturally softer, nicer and sugar - spicier than other men.

Posted on: September 19, 2008, 02:04:54 AM
Also man, if you're talking about other guys your age, posing is generally the rule whether you're bio or not. Teens are always one-upping another. Is it stupid? yeah. But guys your age do it, bio or not.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Elwood

My voice/body are moderate. I look like a 12-16 year old boy, and sound like one too. I'd like to look my age. It's REALLY hard to get parts in theater when you can only play children's roles.

People call what I have discussed ignorance because they feel threatened. Gonna call me stupid and arrogant too? That would make you the bigger man, wouldn't it?

That's my point.

Posted on: September 19, 2008, 08:11:02 AM
Quote from: Nero on September 19, 2008, 01:15:38 AMI agree with some of what you say, but I'm afraid you're overreaching with the 'childhood falsification' part. Some of us DID have knowledge of ourselves at 2 years of age enough that our parents knew about it.
That's complese bullsh*t. Children usually don't speak at that age, and even if they do, they wouldn't know the word "penis."

FtMs think they're "alphas on the inside" but it takes more than being an arrogant ->-bleeped-<- to classify as an alpha.
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Sephirah

Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 10:12:57 AM
Quote from: Nero on September 19, 2008, 01:15:38 AMI agree with some of what you say, but I'm afraid you're overreaching with the 'childhood falsification' part. Some of us DID have knowledge of ourselves at 2 years of age enough that our parents knew about it.
That's complese bullsh*t. Children usually don't speak at that age, and even if they do, they wouldn't know the word "penis."

FtMs think they're "alphas on the inside" but it takes more than being an arrogant ->-bleeped-<- to classify as an alpha.

I know you feel strongly about this, Dan, but to call someone else's opinion BS because they don't agree with you... it's not really very fair.

There's no way to know how self-aware each individual is at such a young age. Not being able to vocalise the feeling that something's wrong with your body doesn't mean that you don't notice, or know instinctively. You don't have to know what something's called to know that you don't have one when you should.

At the very least, even if most people aren't so self-aware at that age, you can't rule out the possibility that some might be without studying every single infant on the face of the planet.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
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Elwood

It's not an opinion. It's an asserted fact, and it's untrue.

There's perfectly well a way to know. Human brain development. Memory does not serve a child until 3 or 4 years old. If someone claims that their mother remembers, than the child must have communicated it, but at such a young age there is no way that was even possible.

It's wishful thinking that makes people believe they wanted a penis since they were an embryo.
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Yochanan

Dan, where do you get that kids don't speak at two? My sister was talking in complete sentences by then. She also knows/knew that there are differences between boys and girls. I've a suspicion that my mother privately explained to her that boys and girls have physical differences. Seems to me that a lot of parents might do something similar; I could be wrong, of course. I'm not saying two year olds know the words penis and vagina, but they probably have some idea of what seperates a boy from a girl.

Coincidentally, I don't think my little sister knows whether I'm a boy or a girl. My mom tells her I'm a girl, but she asks me all the time, "Giggy, are you a boy? Giggy, are you a girl?" I think once she even called me a "boy-girl". I just laughed.
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Sephirah

Quote from: Elwood on September 19, 2008, 10:37:49 AM
It's not an opinion. It's an asserted fact, and it's untrue.

There's perfectly well a way to know. Human brain development. Memory does not serve a child until 3 or 4 years old.

That's not actually true.

http://www.hno.harvard.edu/gazette/2002/11.07/01-memory.html

Children remember after age one.
Natura nihil frustra facit.

"You yourself, as much as anybody in the entire universe, deserve your love and affection." ~ Buddha.

If you're dealing with self esteem issues, maybe click here. There may be something you find useful. :)
Above all... remember: you are beautiful, you are valuable, and you have a shining spark of magnificence within you. Don't let anyone take that from you. Embrace who you are. <3
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Elwood

I don't have time now, but I will prove what I have claimed. Children do not differentiate the sexes at such a young age. Plain and simple.
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