Asserting Manhood: Overcompensation?

[Elwood]

It's an issue that again gets on my nerves, but I want to try to understand it.

Before I start, I see this stuff both online and offline. This is NOT directed to anyone specific here.

Do guys do this to help with dysphoria? To help with passing? Or is it driven by fear? All I know is that it is one of the things that really gets on my nerves. The "tough guy" attitude is particularly irritating. Some guys will try to always "one up" me. I don't know if it's because I pass or if it is my calm demeanor, but they like to pick a bone with me about something. There's times where a guy will start an argument with me just so he can have an excuse to dominate me verbally. I honestly can't tell if it is from stress, insecurity, or PMS.

I hear a lot of guys talk about fighting. How "a real man's got to defend himself." I don't see manhood as a symbol of violence. I am no less of a man for deciding to use my brain instead of brawn. If someone is going to pick a fight with me, I am going to avoid them. What do a lot of guys say to me? That I'm a wimp and I can't handle it. Avoiding a confrontation isn't "running away," it's being safe. I'm 18 years old. I get into a fight and I can land myself a night in jail. Is proving my manhood worth a light criminal record? I don't think so.

Then there's the fact that a lot of guys pretend not to have emotion. I already talked about this example in another thread, but I'll mention it again; I was at a transgroup and the facilitator of the group asked what we wanted to do next meeting. I said, "Why don't we check-in?" Checking-in is talking about how you're doing, what's on your mind, questions you have... Well, the one of the guys said, "Talk about feelings?" They all awkwardly looked at eachother, seizing the moment to try to stick out their chests and shake off and vulnerability they may have had. I seriously was pissed... As FtMs, we know what it is like to be in a woman's body, have estrogen, live that life; we are not emotionless based on gender. Emotion is not a gender thing. It's a human thing.

Then there's guys comparing body type. I find this terribly offensive. "I have such big hands" or "I'm so tall" and all of that stuff. Then there's the handful of small short guys who awkwardly stand in silence because they don't want to talk about their "feelings." It's a very unhealthy environment. I know guys need to give themselves a pat on the back, but honestly, they need a little more tact. It's a very sensitive issue, and because we're all "manly men" no one's going to say anything about it.

Then there's percieved stereotypes of masculinity. Toughness, dominance, anger, callousness, monotonous, etc. I hear so many guys lower their voice and it just ends up sounding like they're got something in their throat. I just don't get it. Yesterday with my therapist, I spoke with my natural voice, which is quite feminine when I get excited (and I was excited to see him). He did not think me any less trans or male. I admit it; I tone my voice down a little to help pass. But there's a point where it's too much and sounds ridiculous... And I don't know why guys can't hear themselves.

Again with the tough guy attitude. Guys like to tell me "how it is." In the end, it turns out to be "how they think it is," but they have to act like they're right, because of that whole male superiority thing. Because they see other men do it, they feel like they also have got to squash others to look bigger or better. I just don't understand it, and it really gets on my nerves. My condition; being a man in a woman's body, does not make me feel the need to be overly masculine or compensating. I am just me, dealing with the confusion of being in this body. I don't see how being an alpha male would help anyone who is in this situation.

Which leads to another point; overpacking. I just don't get it. Some guys pack way too much (with like a 6 inch flaccid) and they're convinced that's the "appropriate size" for them. "If I was born male, I would be this well hung." Does it even really matter? I was hesitant to purchase the 3.5 because I was worried it would be over the top. I happen to know the men in my family are well endowed and yet I was still conscious. I don't know if anyone else is willing to see this, but a lot of guys go completely over the top.

Then there's the most annoying; fabrication. "I was 2 years old and wanted a penis." Please. A little kid doesn't even know what that is, and if they saw their brother's, it wasn't very prominent and they likely wouldn't even understand the difference. I hear guys tell stories that are way over exaggerated again and again in an attempt to make their transhood seem more "valid." I told my therapist that I didn't have a prominent male questioning until I was around 8-10 years old, and that I hadn't had a strong male identity until I was well into my teen years. That didn't make me any less trans; it just made me a later onset. So with everyone saying they've known since birth; you're only lying to yourselves. Some people, or rather, most people, live their lives as a lie, or at least partially. I for one am a firm believer that we ought to be honest with ourselves. A true man, that strong, "manly man" who can take anything, would face the truth, even though it might sting.

So I get called weak all the time. People say, "You make threads like this to boost your manliness because you're insecure." You can believe that. I personally made the thread because I was irritated by a particular FtM I recently observed... I wanted him to be himself because his mask was slipping and it didn't look good at all. I sometimes think guys have these masks on and don't realize it, so I'm bringing the issue to the forefront.

[Aidan]

I think some of it may be overcompensating, but I also think some of it may be... how do I put this?  Ignorance, I guess, combined with the more or less desperate desire to "really"* be a man.

Or put it this way.  They're doing these things because "that's what men do."  The stereotypes get shoved in everybody's faces constantly.  Men are this way, men are that way, and I think a lot of transguys feel that they just have to try and do all this stuff, because if they're going to be a man, this stuff is what men do, so they need to learn to do it all.  Men look a certain way, so you take hormones and get surgery.  Men act a certain way, so you put on an act, and if you do it all, just right, you're a real boy now.  Otherwise, if you do something that's not completely and utterly "manly" somebody is going to notice you're not a "real" man! (And I think a lot of cisguys have problems with this too.)

I try and stay out of that trap as much as I can, but sometimes it is a little hard.  I giggled at somebody the other day, and I had a "OMG, men don't giggle I'm so embarrassed" moment.  And then I rolled my eyes at myself and said "Of course men giggle.  I'm a man, I just giggled, therefore men giggle."  But that's pretty hard to do in the face of the massive pressure to do it "right" so that you'll "really" pass as a guy.

*Disclaimer - I think transmen are just as "real" as any kind of man, but it is hard not to sometimes feel that you're just a big faker, and that nobody believes you're actually a guy.

[NicholeW.]

Surely you jest, Elwood. Why, I knew when I was a one month gestationally!!! tsk-tsk. You late-comers!!

Good thread and good points. Just try to keep it on the "I" as that will cause a lot less defensiveness, please. Thank you, Aidan, that was exactly the way I had envisioned it.

N~

[tekla]

The guys I know and the ones I've known in life judge each other by two things.  One is the quality of the work they do.  Notice I didn't say, 'what job' but rather, how well they do any job.  And two, by how much they live up to their responsibilities.  Living up to the responsibilities of getting it done, being good to your word, taking care of what you have created is what really seperates men from boys.  Boys posture, pose and pretend.  Men do the Larry the Cable Guy deal, and just 'get 'er done.' They work together but don't depend on other people to do it for them.  They try to solve their own problems rather than waiting for someone else to show up and do it.

Really the highest praise I ever hear from one guy about another is "He's a good worker and very responsible."

So it seems to me.

[Elwood]

Men look a certain way, so you take hormones and get surgery.

That's not why I'm transitioning. That's a very shallow reason to transition.

[Aiden]

Thanks bro.  Needed that.

I've been struggling myself with the crisis of my emotions and sentitiviaty, my kindness towards others, and such and that it's not percieved as masculine.  Makes me wonder sometimes if I am really ftm. Yet i feel I am I just can't shake the feminine parts.  Partly because I have little control over my emotions and partly because I like being a good person to others and hate when hurt someone.

[Aidan]

Men look a certain way, so you take hormones and get surgery.

That's not why I'm transitioning. That's a very shallow reason to transition.

What's so shallow about wanting to look like a man on the outside, when you feel like a man on the inside?  If you're not trying to look like a man, then why get surgery or take hormones at all?

[Elwood]

Thanks bro.  Needed that.

I've been struggling myself with the crisis of my emotions and sentitiviaty, my kindness towards others, and such and that it's not percieved as masculine.  Makes me wonder sometimes if I am really ftm. Yet i feel I am I just can't shake the feminine parts.  Partly because I have little control over my emotions and partly because I like being a good person to others and hate when hurt someone.

I'm sick of a lot of guys feeling like they HAVE to be emotionless slimes. Those are the guys all the girls keep b*tching about and saying they hate... So why are we trying to pull that off? Oh, that's right. SOME girls like "bad" guys. But why strive to be the "bad" guy? It's much easier to be a "normal" guy. To be the "good" guy or "bad" guy is an unhealthy extreme. Most importantly, we should strive to be ourselves and trust our instincts instead of trying to make up "manly instincts."

Such as FtMs falsifying male instincts.
"My instincts tell me not to wear a dress."
A dress is man made. Nothing instinctual about not wanting to wear it.
"My instincts tell me to pee standing up."
Your body configuration simply doesn't match up with the idea; wanting to pee standing up is a social thing. I know a lot of men who sit to pee for various reasons, and no, they don't have something "wrong" with them.
"My instincts tell me to be aggressive."
Except you're full of estrogen. If the guy making this claim is on T, he might have some argument. But hormones have nothing to do with instinct. They are chemical messengers and your body perceives the world differently based upon the "language" the messengers speak.

I could understand if an FtM said, "I feel the urge to penetrate," but it's not an "instinct."

The instincts we must pay attention to is our immediate reaction to things. If we feel like crying, or being kind, or laughing, to suppress all of those things to be "manly" is very unhealthy. I've accepted it; I'm in a female body, I won't have T for another two months, I'm not going to pretend I have it already.

Posted on: September 18, 2008, 11:52:48 AM

Men look a certain way, so you take hormones and get surgery.

That's not why I'm transitioning. That's a very shallow reason to transition.

What's so shallow about wanting to look like a man on the outside, when you feel like a man on the inside?  If you're not trying to look like a man, then why get surgery or take hormones at all?

It's shallow to want to put on a man mask and transition ONLY to look like a man.
I am not transitioning to LOOK like a man. I am transitioning to BE a man physically. I want the physical sensations. I want the body chemistry. I want the look and feel, less, but I also want my body's configuration to feel CORRECT. That is much deeper than just wanting to "look like a guy."

Besides, you can question my mindset all you wish, but I've got a therapst who says I'll be getting hormones before 2009... so... apparently I am trans so no one needs to question me simply because I am more than the male front.

[NicholeW.]

Whoa there pardner-Elwood. I think you maybe stuck out that chest a bit too far!! I don't think Aidan was saying something made you less or more of a man, or that wanting to feel congruent but also yourself made you ineligible for HRT.

In fact, given what I've been reading of Aidan and his responses I would imagine that he'd be most against calling your personal and individual ways of doing things in to question in any way at all!!   

Try to relax, luv. Everyone is not against you. Don't over-compensate yourself now!!

Nikki

[Aidan]

O.o

No, I wasn't calling anything about Elwood into question at all!  (If anything, just the opposite.) 

Saying that simply wanting to look like a man is shallow sounded to me like he might have meant that for somebody to just want to look like a man, without some... different, or more complicated reason, meant that they weren't sincere, or real, or shouldn't be transitioning, and I wanted to ask why, and what was so shallow about it?   

While I don't think anybody should make a big life-change like hormones and surgery lightly, I don't think that just wanting to look like a man is a shallow reason at all.  It's simple, certainly, but honestly I find it rather profound.  Seeing in the mirror what you picture in your mind... I wish I could, really.

I think perhaps we're coming at this from different angles, and may have misunderstood one another.  You say you want to BE a man.  I say you ARE a man already, and so am I.  The physical has nothing to do with what you are.  It's important, I won't try and deny that, but even though physically I am 100% female, I am a man now.  Taking hormones and getting surgery would be making me LOOK like a man, it wouldn't be making me BE a man.  That's my take on the subject.  I'm probably biased a bit towards that mindset by the fact that I can't have the surgery and the hormones, so if I based any of my sense of being a man on physical things, I'd be awfully frustrated. 

But I certainly didn't mean anything at all offensive by it, or by this.  I'm just trying to explain my point of view, and find out more about yours. 

[NicholeW.]

On thje MTF-side I can attest that being fortunate in the way someone looks, sounds, is received by others is quite the point. It is also quite profound for us. No one wants to seem a poseur, ever.

Nikki

[Aiden]

Thanks bro.  Needed that.

I've been struggling myself with the crisis of my emotions and sentitiviaty, my kindness towards others, and such and that it's not percieved as masculine.  Makes me wonder sometimes if I am really ftm. Yet i feel I am I just can't shake the feminine parts.  Partly because I have little control over my emotions and partly because I like being a good person to others and hate when hurt someone.

I'm sick of a lot of guys feeling like they HAVE to be emotionless slimes. Those are the guys all the girls keep b*tching about and saying they hate... So why are we trying to pull that off? Oh, that's right. SOME girls like "bad" guys. But why strive to be the "bad" guy? It's much easier to be a "normal" guy. To be the "good" guy or "bad" guy is an unhealthy extreme. Most importantly, we should strive to be ourselves and trust our instincts instead of trying to make up "manly instincts."

Such as FtMs falsifying male instincts.
"My instincts tell me not to wear a dress."
A dress is man made. Nothing instinctual about not wanting to wear it.
"My instincts tell me to pee standing up."
Your body configuration simply doesn't match up with the idea; wanting to pee standing up is a social thing. I know a lot of men who sit to pee for various reasons, and no, they don't have something "wrong" with them.
"My instincts tell me to be aggressive."
Except you're full of estrogen. If the guy making this claim is on T, he might have some argument. But hormones have nothing to do with instinct. They are chemical messengers and your body perceives the world differently based upon the "language" the messengers speak.

I could understand if an FtM said, "I feel the urge to penetrate," but it's not an "instinct."

The instincts we must pay attention to is our immediate reaction to things. If we feel like crying, or being kind, or laughing, to suppress all of those things to be "manly" is very unhealthy. I've accepted it; I'm in a female body, I won't have T for another two months, I'm not going to pretend I have it already.

What the freck!  No need to sit there and accuse and insult me.  I sit there and say thank you for reminding me of this then you turn around and harp on me on how you hate it when us guys feel presured to be the sterotypical man.  cigendered men feel pressured to be the typical man as well.  My own issues is I'm more emotional than most men or women.  I cry and lose my temper several times a week, least lately have.

And don;t ever accuse me of falsifying anything.  I didn't like dresses as a a child (fact not falsification)
Peeing while standing up  (true desire, not frecking falsification)
I tend to be aggressive, (truth, not falsification)

Jeeze...  I try be nice and thank you and you go and insult me.

[tekla]

What a bunch of stereotypes.  Really.  Most guys are not all macho and agro, and the ones who are never have to pose about it, you know it the second they step into the room. 

[Aiden]

What a bunch of stereotypes.  Really.  Most guys are not all macho and agro, and the ones who are never have to pose about it, you know it the second they step into the room. 

I know their not all macho, but even the ones who are not macho I don't see bawling their eyes out all the time.  I've seen many variety of men, but I've never seen a single one of them bawling all the time and unable to control it.

I've seen mtf but thats because they take estrogen and their not men on the inside.  I've started to wonder if i am just completely screwed up.  I don't even see women that often crying as much as I do.

[Elwood]

O.o

No, I wasn't calling anything about Elwood into question at all!  (If anything, just the opposite.) 

Saying that simply wanting to look like a man is shallow sounded to me like he might have meant that for somebody to just want to look like a man, without some... different, or more complicated reason, meant that they weren't sincere, or real, or shouldn't be transitioning, and I wanted to ask why, and what was so shallow about it?   

While I don't think anybody should make a big life-change like hormones and surgery lightly, I don't think that just wanting to look like a man is a shallow reason at all.  It's simple, certainly, but honestly I find it rather profound.  Seeing in the mirror what you picture in your mind... I wish I could, really.

I think perhaps we're coming at this from different angles, and may have misunderstood one another.  You say you want to BE a man.  I say you ARE a man already, and so am I.  The physical has nothing to do with what you are.  It's important, I won't try and deny that, but even though physically I am 100% female, I am a man now.  Taking hormones and getting surgery would be making me LOOK like a man, it wouldn't be making me BE a man.  That's my take on the subject.  I'm probably biased a bit towards that mindset by the fact that I can't have the surgery and the hormones, so if I based any of my sense of being a man on physical things, I'd be awfully frustrated. 

But I certainly didn't mean anything at all offensive by it, or by this.  I'm just trying to explain my point of view, and find out more about yours. 

It is shallow to transition based only on looks. Does that mean they shouldn't? I don't think so. Personally, that decision isn't up to me. I'd hope a therapist looks out for that person, though, because transition is a permanent decision and shouldn't be made lightly.

I said be a man physically. I've never thought that I wasn't already a man internally, emotionally, etc. But if I was already a man physically, I'd be biologically male and we wouldn't even be having this discussion. 

Posted on: September 18, 2008, 03:16:58 PM

What the freck!  No need to sit there and accuse and insult me.  I sit there and say thank you for reminding me of this then you turn around and harp on me on how you hate it when us guys feel presured to be the sterotypical man.  cigendered men feel pressured to be the typical man as well.  My own issues is I'm more emotional than most men or women.  I cry and lose my temper several times a week, least lately have.

And don;t ever accuse me of falsifying anything.  I didn't like dresses as a a child (fact not falsification)
Peeing while standing up  (true desire, not frecking falsification)
I tend to be aggressive, (truth, not falsification)

Jeeze...  I try be nice and thank you and you go and insult me.

How did I insult you? I was talking in general. You're being oversensitive now.

The part that a lot of FtMs falsify is saying, "I don't like dresses, I want to pee standing up, and I'm aggressive BECAUSE I'm a man," but those aren't the reasons. They're lying to themselves about WHY they do these things... and if you consider that statement an insult, you might want to ask yourself why it's so insulting to you.

Posted on: September 18, 2008, 03:19:07 PM

I've started to wonder if i am just completely screwed up.

It's called estrogen, sir. Sure, you may cry or hurt more than other female-bodied people, but maybe that's because of your environment (your experiences, household, situation, etc.) Or maybe you're overtired and need more rest. Whatever it is, you're not screwed up. Crying doesn't hurt anyone. It helps you release tension. There's nothing bad about it unless you're crying so much you don't eat or sleep.

[Aiden]

Geh... sorry...  I know took it personally when shouldn't of. 

And yeh your right Dan.   Haven't been sleeping well either, but not because of crying.

[Elwood]

Geh... sorry...  I know took it personally when shouldn't of. 

And yeh your right Dan.   Haven't been sleeping well either, but not because of crying.

Sleep well, eat well, drink a lot of water.  Exercise a little if you have the time. All of these things should help out.

[Aiden]

Yeh, unfortunantly I've been snapping at my friends a lot in last few months as well to point it's been effecting them   and their generally accepting of me being ftm.  Least some are.

[Elwood]

That's definitely a bummer... Up here I have no close friends. I don't trust anyone enough to tell them my secret. It's scary.

[Aiden]

Mine kinda had to know since they were friends of mine long before I came out to myself much less them.  They have been helpful, have called me by Aiden or least try to.

Unfortunately I feel much like a child, because I tend to look for nurturing due to not having had it much growing up.  Makes me feel like I'm a boy on the inside rather than a man.