Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

Has your background helped you in areas women typically struggle with?

Started by Nero, October 16, 2008, 05:11:37 PM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

tekla

I'd be thinking more along the lines of "Sure, but did you ever think you would get to be this old and know so little?"
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

pennyjane

"bumping into people"  it's not one-sided.  i think what this means is that we are used to navigating hallways, elevators and such in a male frame and frame of reference...and people have seen us as being in that same place.  bumping into people because you are used to having them get out of your way...they don't do that anymore, as well as them offering you feminine deference, which you aren't used to either.  the way you utiliize the space you're in doesn't just change like a new dress.

it goes beyond space, it really affects all kinds of ways in which we interact with the world around us.  no, we don't want to exercise male privilidge, but we are trained to do so in many unconscious ways...producing those sublimial signals we put out.

i remember my outrage at first hearing about how the women with the michigan women's music festival refused entrance to transwomen.  i took it as a direct slap at my validity.  "womyn born womyn" indeed!  my lesbian therapist and i spent more then one session expressing outrage at this behavior, experiencing the hurt and the pain at running into such an unexpected glass wall.  just who do these self-righteous women think they are...defining my womanhood for me?  i read explanations from them, even found myself across the street at ->-bleeped-<-town protesting our exclusion that year.  after i'd expressed my outrage in about every way i began to get it under control...not by dismissing them as a bunch of bigots...but by beginning to understand where they were coming from.  history, it seems, can't be killed or altered.

let's face it, most of these women...virtually all of their leadership are lesbians.  they have lived lifetimes of not only female discrimination but the particular discrimination and illigitimization of being women who are sexually attracted to other women.  they don't view lesbianism as just defining who ones sleeps with but as something much larger...it's about who one is...and is from birth...it's about how one comes to be who they are...the specific lives they have led and the feelings and facts that they share among themselves just as we <transsexuals> share so many.  just as i have seen so many feelings and histories of my fellow transsexual women that i can relate to with far more depth then any empathy can allow for...i think this is something that happens with them too.  these are the things that someone who wasn't born and raised a lesbian can't really know in all their intimacy and depth.

this is why, that even though i may fit the surface definition of lesbian, i have a lot of difficulty in calling myself lesbian.  to me, my lesbianism is only defined by who i sleep with, it goes no further...i can't compare this with the reality these other women were born, grew up with and have lived with everyday of their lives.  i always had the character of the heterosexual man to fall back on...to hide in...to protect me from all the things my sisters had no protection from. 

"womyn born womyn."  it's not some awful thing to me anymore.  it's a legitimate concept from their point of view...and i can respect it.  i will forever fight for bringing us all to the next level...where that concept is not defeated, but outlives it's reality...then it will go away and we will all be somewhat closer.

i guess this is what i think about when i see the "male privilidge" thing.  i didn't ask for it, i don't want it..i don't like it...but it is a part of my history...i can do what i want with that...anything but rewrite it.
  •  

Shana A

Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 10:43:17 AM
i read explanations from them, even found myself across the street at ->-bleeped-<-town protesting our exclusion that year. 

I was at Camp Trans in '94. What year were you there Pennyjane?

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

joannatsf

Quote from: tekla on October 22, 2008, 10:36:06 AM
I'd be thinking more along the lines of "Sure, but did you ever think you would get to be this old and know so little?"

No, but I have thought "If I thought I was going to live to be this old I'd have taken better care of myself when I was younger"  :P

Posted on: 22 October 2008, 10:06:55
Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 10:43:17 AM


let's face it, most of these women...virtually all of their leadership are lesbians.  they have lived lifetimes of not only female discrimination but the particular discrimination and illigitimization of being women who are sexually attracted to other women.  they don't view lesbianism as just defining who ones sleeps with but as something much larger...it's about who one is...and is from birth...it's about how one comes to be who they are...the specific lives they have led and the feelings and facts that they share among themselves just as we <transsexuals> share so many.  just as i have seen so many feelings and histories of my fellow transsexual women that i can relate to with far more depth then any empathy can allow for...i think this is something that happens with them too.  these are the things that someone who wasn't born and raised a lesbian can't really know in all their intimacy and depth.

this is why, that even though i may fit the surface definition of lesbian, i have a lot of difficulty in calling myself lesbian.  to me, my lesbianism is only defined by who i sleep with, it goes no further...i can't compare this with the reality these other women were born, grew up with and have lived with everyday of their lives.  i always had the character of the heterosexual man to fall back on...to hide in...to protect me from all the things my sisters had no protection from. 

"womyn born womyn."  it's not some awful thing to me anymore.  it's a legitimate concept from their point of view...and i can respect it.  i will forever fight for bringing us all to the next level...where that concept is not defeated, but outlives it's reality...then it will go away and we will all be somewhat closer.

i guess this is what i think about when i see the "male privilidge" thing.  i didn't ask for it, i don't want it..i don't like it...but it is a part of my history...i can do what i want with that...anything but rewrite it.

I hate to be ageist but I think I'm old enough to get away with it.  Most of the leadership of the Mich Fest are in their late 40s up and their defining moments of feminism are based in the 1970s and the second wave.  I have a number of younger lesbian friends who feel no such animosity as that expressed by Janice Raymond in her 1979 tome The Transsexual Empire: the making of the she-male.  Part of this is due to their increased exposure to ftm people which seems to translate to the mtf population as well.

Personaly, I wouldn't sleep outdoors and use communal showers for anyone.
  •  

pennyjane

hi zythra....i was a eleven years behind you in time...probably not that far in reality.  i have found many, many changes in myself since that experience...which was the first time i'd ever made such a publicly blatent statement on anything.  i'd be willing to bet..you've found even more.
  •  

tekla

No, but I have thought "If I thought I was going to live to be this old I'd have taken better care of myself when I was younger"

I always had a 'daily bummer' in my lectures, sort of an icebreaker as it were, and the one that bummed them out the most was "Your health after 40 depends largely on what you did before you were 25."
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Shana A

Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 12:33:28 PM
hi zythra....i was a eleven years behind you in time...probably not that far in reality.  i have found many, many changes in myself since that experience...which was the first time i'd ever made such a publicly blatent statement on anything.  i'd be willing to bet..you've found even more.

Penny Jane,

Like you said earlier in the thread, I moved beyond that experience to where other things were more important. At this time I'm not invested in the struggle for whether or not MWMF allows transwomen, for the most part I don't have any desire to go where I'm not wanted, although it would still be nice to see change.

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


  •  

tekla

In its own unique way the MWMF is a change.  How many other festivals are run like that?  Zero. 
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

joannatsf

Quote from: tekla on October 22, 2008, 01:49:46 PM
No, but I have thought "If I thought I was going to live to be this old I'd have taken better care of myself when I was younger"

I always had a 'daily bummer' in my lectures, sort of an icebreaker as it were, and the one that bummed them out the most was "Your health after 40 depends largely on what you did before you were 25."

It's unfortunately true.  I'm paying for things I did when I was 18 and 19.  Knees by skiing accident.  HCV from a brief flirtation with IV drugs in 1973.  Party on!
  •  

tekla

I was lucky in two ways, I was busy when the party was going on, and by the time I was done so was the party, nothing left but sex.  Alas.  But I also had a lot of people drift though my life whose sole purpose in life seemed to be to provide object lessons for me.  So after watching people do IV drugs, or drink so much they woke up one day in pool of their own urine covered with their own vomit I just looked at it and thought, 'gee, there's got to be a better way.'

Perhaps being so close to the drug culture affected me in other ways too.  For me transition was hindered not by SRS, that didn't bother me, but by the HRT, which was something I wasn't going to do.  I don't care if its T or H, having to stick a needle in me everyday was not something I thought would be good in the long run for me. 
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

cindybc

T and E comes in the form of pills and you use androgen blocker as well and neither are a drug although they  cause damage to inner organs if inappropriately administered but basically they just change you to a more female or male compatible body chemistry and with some change in the psychological. Just got to know with out doubt if that is truly what you want and if one has the symptoms of GID there is little option one has as to which way to go. To ee who they feel they are within or live a miserable life. I chose the former better then being miserable all the rest of my life. Life is to short for that. I don't drink or smoke dope or cigarettes either, nor did I ever stick needles in me either.

Cindy
  •  

pennyjane

me neither, zythra...i see their point and i have no quarrel with it.  but, yup...the time when their point becomes outdated will be welcomed.  and, maybe it's kind of funny....but i don't have any use for music festivals of any order...it was just the point and the platform that engaged me to begin with.
  •  

tekla

and with some change in the psychological

I guess that was the point.  Perhaps I should have met a more responsible group of drug abusers and I might have had a different opinion about what would work best for me.  Who knows?  I just knew that any changes in my psychology would most likely not turn out well for me.  I had not seen it happen in anyone else who worked to chemically rearrange their consciousness.  For the people I know who have been through HRT the physical effects were awesome, some of them though, the psychological stuff, not so much.  Others though, they seemed OK for the most part.

And that's the deal.  Well, well, well, you can never tell.  I know people who can have a beer or a shot, or even both.  Its fine.  They do it and they walk away.  Others, they take the cap of the whiskey bottle and toss it away thinking "Ain't gonna be using that again."  I've watched people, including myself put that Bolivian Weasel Dust up their snout.  No problem.  Others, their life, as they knew it, was over with the first line.  Might as well have eaten the gun as done the blow, the end effect was the same.  And you can't tell who that's going to be.

Most of the people I know who drink, even the drunks, are at least responsible enough to keep a job and a house, but others.... hey I spend a few days (and nights) down at Turk and Taylor (or as we call it, the corner of Crack Ave and Royal Gate Way) and I see them with the plastic bottle of vodka next to them, laying there, on the street, passed out, in urine, in vomit, night after night.

I even talk to some of them on occasion - after all, as Mister Rodgers would say "These are the people in your neighborhood."  And I can assure you that they sure never intended to get there.  It was not their goal.  At one time, they were loved, and no doubt loved others.  They had dreams, plans and goals.  But old John Barleycorn up and got in the way of that.

And, even if they somehow find a way out - and few do - they are never the same.  Constant drinking kills brain cells, so they are a lot less smart getting out then they were going in - and in some ways they were dumb enough to start with to wind up there in the first place. So, not a good deal.  Likewise all that white stuff - H, crack, meth, coke - it puts a hole in your soul that never goes away and nothing else can ever fill.  They are never the same after that.

Now, my choice (after quite a few mistakes) was to stay away from all of it.  I didn't want to walk on what I knew to be thin ice for me.  Others might take a different path, and I don't quarrel with that either.  It's their choice, not mine, to make.  But I'm reasonably happy with my path.  Its funny that the old "Drugs, Sex and Rock and Roll" ever got started, because anyone knows that given enough of the first the second never happens.  And I was always far more into that.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

joannatsf

Turk and Taylor, huh?  Is Aunt Charlie's the attraction?

Souls are more rislient than you might imagine.  I'm a better person for having survived my mistakes.  The humility in particular can soften the ruff edges.  I was pretty selfish and it showed in the way I lived and my career choices.  Now I work with many of those same people you've seen at Turk and Taylor.  Many suffer severe mental illness and their drugs are their only comfort.  Some will die in that gutter but some will move toward a better life in incredibly small steps.  But they do get there.
  •  

tekla

FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

cindybc

Hi Tekla, you are preaching to the choir when it comes to booze, drugs, and rock and roll. I drank alcoholically from 30 years and lived on the street for the last 10 years of that little trip. I have seen psychologically and mentally sick people. Some not having known much more about life except the streets having grown up with their moms on the street. I have done the bar scene and lived among others who turned tricks just like anyone else on the street to buy a meal of just buy another bottle of hooch.

I survived it and when I discovered that my only illness to begin with was GID, I was grateful for that and took the medicine to cure the illness. Was I weak for dong so? I don't think so. It took lots of guts to survive the booze and the streets and just as much in admitting to GID and doing something about it as well and surviving it. Survive it? Hell, I am proud to have become the person that the street, the booze, and the alcohol has honed me to be today. I am proud of that little lady, she has come through a lot to just be her.

But with all due respect, I do thank you for indulging me and informing me as to what your gig is in life and where it has brought you to today. I am still somewhat puzzled as to what you're here for. Why would a cisgendered person wanna waste there time here?

Cindy   
  •  

tekla

There is far more to gender variation and ->-bleeped-<- than transition.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

cindybc

Please I am not jestin, explain I am curious is all. I am aware there are many gender deviations under the transgender umbrella, just curious to know which you feel you would catagorise yourself under? If you wish, just say so and I'll get lost. Not intending to be a pest. I'm only a small bug any way just need a small can of bug repellent. ;D

Cindy 
  •  

Ms Bev

Quote from: tekla on October 22, 2008, 10:36:06 AM
I'd be thinking more along the lines of "Sure, but did you ever think you would get to be this old and know so little?"

So......you think I'm OLD?? :P
*chuckle*

Old Bev


Posted on: October 22, 2008, 10:00:05 pm
Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 10:43:17 AM

......after i'd expressed my outrage in about every way i began to get it under control...not by dismissing them as a bunch of bigots...but by beginning to understand where they were coming from.  history, it seems, can't be killed or altered.

let's face it, most of these women...virtually all of their leadership are lesbians.  they have lived lifetimes of not only female discrimination but the particular discrimination and illigitimization of being women who are sexually attracted to other women.  they don't view lesbianism as just defining who ones sleeps with but as something much larger...it's about who one is...and is from birth...it's about how one comes to be who they are...the specific lives they have led and the feelings and facts that they share among themselves

.......even though i may fit the surface definition of lesbian, i have a lot of difficulty in calling myself lesbian.  to me, my lesbianism is only defined by who i sleep with, it goes no further..

...."womyn born womyn."  it's not some awful thing to me anymore.  it's a legitimate concept from their point of view...and i can respect it. 



Hmmm.....where should I start....
Maybe just keep it short and sweet.  They're bigots, period.  I hope they don't require womEn born women to prove how much of their life they realized they were lesbian.  A huge number of natal women discover very late in life that they are lesbian, and take up the banner.  Just because they did not experience the same lifetime of discrimination, let's hope they're not left behind, either.  I'm sorry but it is just so elitist.
It's as bad as having "white only" or "black only" functions, and require proof of whiteness or blackness to participate.
I have associations with other lesbians frequently, and they don't demand to see my credentials. I know, it's off topic.....sorry, but this particular thing has plucked my nerves too many times.



Lesbian Bev




1.) If you're skating on thin ice, you might as well dance. 
Bev
2.) The more I talk to my married friends, the more I
     appreciate  having a wife.
Marcy
  •  

Hypatia

Quote from: pennyjane on October 22, 2008, 10:43:17 AM
let's face it, most of these women...virtually all of their leadership are lesbians.  they have lived lifetimes of not only female discrimination but the particular discrimination and illigitimization of being women who are sexually attracted to other women.  they don't view lesbianism as just defining who ones sleeps with but as something much larger...it's about who one is...and is from birth...it's about how one comes to be who they are...the specific lives they have led and the feelings and facts that they share among themselves just as we <transsexuals> share so many.  just as i have seen so many feelings and histories of my fellow transsexual women that i can relate to with far more depth then any empathy can allow for...i think this is something that happens with them too.  these are the things that someone who wasn't born and raised a lesbian can't really know in all their intimacy and depth.

this is why, that even though i may fit the surface definition of lesbian, i have a lot of difficulty in calling myself lesbian.  to me, my lesbianism is only defined by who i sleep with, it goes no further...i can't compare this with the reality these other women were born, grew up with and have lived with everyday of their lives.  i always had the character of the heterosexual man to fall back on...to hide in...to protect me from all the things my sisters had no protection from. 

"womyn born womyn."  it's not some awful thing to me anymore.  it's a legitimate concept from their point of view...and i can respect it.  i will forever fight for bringing us all to the next level...where that concept is not defeated, but outlives it's reality...then it will go away and we will all be somewhat closer.

i guess this is what i think about when i see the "male privilidge" thing.  i didn't ask for it, i don't want it..i don't like it...but it is a part of my history...i can do what i want with that...anything but rewrite it.
<Wayne's World>
We're not worthy! We're not worthy!
</Wayne's World>
Here's what I find about compromise--
don't do it if it hurts inside,
'cause either way you're screwed,
eventually you'll find
you may as well feel good;
you may as well have some pride

--Indigo Girls
  •