Transition & Marriage Questions

[Dana_W]

I've read some other posts lately on this topic, but none of them seem to quite get to an aspect that has been weighing on my mind. First a little background:

I'm 39 years old. Married for almost 17 years. We have three children aged 8, 6, and 4. My wife knew about my TG side in terms of crossdressing and general gender questioning before we were married. Back in our 20's she even helped me dress and do my makeup, and attended TG events with me occasionally.

However, as with most couples, our marriage has changed a lot over the years. For reasons I'll go into another time (my wife was not one of the factors involved) I forced myself back into the closet in my late 20's and "decided" to live as happy a life as I could as a man.

Fast forward a decade or so, and I'm in therapy dealing with my transgendered feelings honestly for the first time in my life. And while my wife is supportive of the therapy, and happy with a lot of the tangible results she has seen (an end to persistent depression, an end to alcohol abuse, better communication between us), she has very real and deep concern about what it might mean to our marriage when I go through with transition.

I'm sure that's very common for spouses of transitioning partners. But there is another aspect I'd like to focus on that I don't see mentioned much: I'm not sure I want to stay married to her after I transition.

I don't want that to sound callous or cold. It's really a pretty wrenching realization. The thing is everyone seems to easily see that a wife of a MtF spouse "didn't sign up for" what amounts to a lesbian relationship post transition, and therefore need not feel guilty should she decide to end things as a result. But the thing is, I only signed up to play "husband" in the first place because I was in deep denial about the depth of feeling and integrity of my transgendered self. Finally confronting that fundamental dishonesty about myself opens up a lot of things about my relationships. Other people seem to have an easy time understanding why my wife might not want a lesbian relationship, but I don't see why it should be assumed that I want a lesbian relationship myself.

Please understand the problem is not that I don't love my wife. I do. We've been together for more of our lives than we've been apart now (we were dating & engaged for about 3 years before being married). We have three wonderful children together whom we both want the best for.

But now that I'm finally coming forward honestly about being transsexual and my plans to transition things are just different between us. Truth be told they were already changing before I came out to her with any of this. We've been acting more like roommates than spouses for a while.

I don't want to impact the kids any more than absolutely necessary (I have a whole other set of concerns there related to transition). But I'm having trouble seeing this marriage survive, and unlike some others I think that may be for the best.

Can anyone else out there relate to this situation in some way? I'd like to remain friends with my wife and close to her regardless. I'm just not sure remaining married will be part of that.

[icontact]

I'm confused. I understand your not being able to see your marriage survive transition. But it seems to me like your only problem with the situation is having a "lesbian" relationship. It's just a word. What's the difference between a heterosexual relationship and a homosexual one? Other than equipment. Absolutely none. What is the difference between playing a husband and wife, and a wife and wife? Every family has things that need to be done, the mortgage needs to get paid, the chores need to be done, the kids need to be fed and cared for. And this all has to happen between two people, regardless of gender.

I don't know if I'm just having trouble understanding your question, so if I am, could you please rephrase it?

[Dana_W]

I suppose I was a little too vague/confusing in explaining. I'll try to be a little more specific.

Without going into graphic detail I'll note that there is no sexual relationship between us anymore. That's not a new thing. It's been like that for years. At one point a while back she explained she was no longer sexually attracted to me. I tried to do something about that for a while. But after the decision to transition it doesn't seem to make a lot of sense. She's not sexually into other women and isn't likely to change her mind about that at her age. 

I'm basically bisexual, though I confess that if I had to start over I'd be more likely to seek a male than a female partner. However I have no desire to play a "male" role in bed for anyone.

If someone else can't be attracted to me as a woman there is going to be a certain kind of intimacy missing from any relationship. That's not a problem for friends. But lovers... which is certainly one aspect of a marriage I don't want to pretend doesn't mean anything to me... need a certain level of attraction and intimacy which I don't think we have anymore, and aren't likely to recover.

[Windrider]

Dana, Welcome to Susans

Your question is the flip side of what many SO's ask themselves, and need to answer, in order to see if the relationship will work out. It's not a bad question either. I think you have your answer, too.

The thing is everyone seems to easily see that a wife of a MtF spouse "didn't sign up for" what amounts to a lesbian relationship post transition, and therefore need not feel guilty should she decide to end things as a result. But the thing is, I only signed up to play "husband" in the first place because I was in deep denial about the depth of feeling and integrity of my transgendered self. Finally confronting that fundamental dishonesty about myself opens up a lot of things about my relationships. Other people seem to have an easy time understanding why my wife might not want a lesbian relationship, but I don't see why it should be assumed that I want a lesbian relationship myself.

And who says that you are somehow a bad person for feeling this way? I would not think less of you if you decided that you needed to end your marriage because of the intimacy issues. There are some couples who remain as "sisters" after transition, but if you are not comfortable with that, then you need to discuss things with your wife.

A lot of marriages/relationships don't survive transition. Some of us, like me, wish that the number that do survive was higher, but even then, it would never be 100%. Some end because the spouse feels betrayed or lied to for a number of years. Some end because the spouse is inflexible and refuses to even *try* to save the relationship. Still others end because people in the relationship now need to walk different paths. There is even a chance that my marriage won't survive transition, although Dani and I are working very hard to stay together.

That a relationship ends does not mean that the end is an unhealthy thing. On the contrary, it can be the best thing that happens. If you do part, hopefully it will be an amicable parting and one where your children know that you still love them and it wasn't their fault.

Can anyone else out there relate to this situation in some way? I'd like to remain friends with my wife and close to her regardless. I'm just not sure remaining married will be part of that.

I don't see why you cannot do this. It doesn't appear from what you've said that your wife is hostile towards you or your transition.

Communication is your key. You may also want to talk with your therapist about this and perhaps ask for suggestions regarding your children.

I wish you the best!

WR

[Arch]

Hi, Dana. I, too, have apprehensions about staying in my relationship. My issues seem fairly simple on the surface: I identify as a gay boy, and I'm not sure I want to be with a straight man for what might be the rest of my life. I'm not simply preoccupied over the label; there's more to it than that. Once my physical transition is well underway, I'm not sure how my partner will relate to me or how I will relate to him--both sexually and socially. Then I have to cope with his misgivings; he quite emphatically does not want to be perceived as a gay man. I can well understand this; for years and years, I have deeply resented being seeing as a straight woman instead of the gay guy that I felt I was.

Unfortunately, there are many complex issues for me to deal with that I'm afraid will influence me in unhealthy directions--perhaps to stay with my partner when that isn't the best choice. For instance, I still haven't finished grad school (I'm not a student anymore, but I haven't finished my dissertation). I have delayed working on my diss while I cope with my trans issues, and I don't know whether I could work on it if I were adjusting to a single life after almost two decades of being with my partner.

I also don't have a stable job (I teach at the uni where I got my master's, but I'm only hired on a per-term basis and have no job security). When I am working, it's usually not full time these days, and even if it were full time, I wouldn't make half the income that my partner makes. So money is a consideration. I don't want it to be, but it is.

And, as I said, we've been together for nearly two decades. That's a long time. We care about each other, and we are used to each other.

I fully expect to work through all of this junk with my truly phenomenal therapist, but I, too, have not encountered very much press about this phenomenon. Mostly it's the significant other who is under the magnifying glass, with the trans person being the one who hopes and prays that the SO will stay in the relationship. But I don't think it should be surprising that you are having these feelings. Because I'm experiencing something similar, I'm usually kind of surprised that other trans folks don't say anything about feeling the same way. Of course, a lot of the trans people I know were single already, but I'm talking about people who definitely were in relationships when they came out or decided to start transition.

My therapist told me that I should not mention to my partner that I am having ambivalent feelings about him, and I think that he is right--for me, at least. I need to work through the ambivalence in therapy before I ever suggest to my partner that I am having second thoughts about our staying together. This approach might not work for you. But I urge you to talk to your therapist about your feelings if you haven't already.

I hope it helps you some to know that you're not alone.

[mtfbuckeye]

My wife and I would like to stay together after I transition, and we both, right now, have no problem with being in a "lesbian" relationship. Thankfully, we are both attracted to women.

However, we have already gotten this out in the open: one or both of us might want/need to be with/date/sleep with men down the road.

That might lead to the marriage breaking up, or to a more open definition of it... We simply don't know yet. But we both want to go forward with openness and honesty about what we want.

Does that make any sense?

[icontact]

Ah I understand now. Could've just said that. Well anyways...scratch the first response.

Honestly, I don't believe in "emotional" romance. If there is no intimacy, there is no relationship; it is simply a very good friendship. I somewhat understand how this would work if both people involved were asexual, but otherwise, I don't believe that it could ever work, in the sense that it could be called a relationship. All relationships require a sexual attraction, whether the emotional attraction is there or not.

So I agree with Arch. Talk to a therapist, try and get your feelings sorted out before bringing it up with your wife, and play it by ear.

Best of luck.

[Dana_W]

Wow. Lots of good input and things to ponder. Thanks to all of you.

I guess I feel a bit in between where Windrider and Arch are coming from. I rather like the idea of being able to stay together post-transition. But some of the realities Arch mentions - the way basic desire and attraction seem to be changing between us, and the sense I have that I would like at least the possibility of that kind of intimacy in my life in the future - tend to argue against that.

I have talked about some of this with my therapist, but I know there's more to work through there.

I don't plan to make any sudden changes or big announcements about this any time soon. My transition plan is pretty slow. I hope it gives us time to work through this as well as a number of other issues. But this one is certainly something I've been thinking hard about.

I don't think either of us would be all that keen on the idea of staying married while being free to sleep with other people. I'm sure that works for some, but that just doesn't feel like "us." Besides, it's not just about the sex to me. It's the kind of intimacy that goes along with it. I don't think I'd be able to feel married to someone while developing that kind of intimacy with another person.

Anyway, thanks again all for your thoughts. I'll keep trying to muddle through for now. 

[Janet_Girl]

I wanted to have my marriage survive transition, but my ex did not want a Lesbian relationship.  So we split up.  But the thing is, now that I am 8 months into HRT, I want a man in my life.  And not just for the emotional aspect, but for the sexual.  All this time when my ex complaint that we were not sexually active, which we weren't,  I could not see it.  We were fine, we had our emotional connection.  But even that die in the end.

But now I see what she was driving at all that time.  Yes I am pre-op and that could be a small problem.  But I think that the person I would be involved with, and I could work that out.  And I want the emotional and intimate sides of a relationship.

I think that we all do sooner or later.

[Kate]

I don't think either of us would be all that keen on the idea of staying married while being free to sleep with other people. I'm sure that works for some, but that just doesn't feel like "us." Besides, it's not just about the sex to me. It's the kind of intimacy that goes along with it. I don't think I'd be able to feel married to someone while developing that kind of intimacy with another person.

Welcome to my world.

I've been married 18 years, although it was never really a "husband and wife" thing. We always struggled to evolve some sort of sexual relationship, but it just never worked... and was a *constant* source of resentment the entire time: her hating me for not being the husband I promised I'd be, and me resenting her for pressuring me to be someone I couldn't become.

We're still together post-transition, but we don't quite know where we're going, so we just it take by day. We love one another, and we're way more than "just friends," yet not intimate, so it's... confusing. We're soooo good together in terms of "us against the world." We work wonderfully as best friends, and have a great time doing things together these days. But there's no physical relationship, and we're both straight, soooooo... I have no idea where we're going, except that so far we've decided to go there together for now.

If you knew us, you'd know that the idea of exploring relationships outside of our marriage isn't "us" either... it's totally unfathomable to both of us. And yet... and yet... you hand people impossible to solve problems, and they tend to slowly start looking towards impossible solutions. Things you thought you'd no way, never ever consider start getting put on the table.

FWIW, I took my ring off before SRS and never put it back on. It just didn't feel right, like I was being disrespectful of what it symbolized to keep wearing it. That's not to say we aren't married in a different sense, or that I'm not committed, but I want to build that commitment on a new promise rather than an old lie.

~Kate~

[Janet_Girl]

Kate,

You and your wife are lucky to have one another.  I am sure it will work out in the end.  You, your wife and your life are an example that shows all the good that can happen.

[cindybc]

It appears that transitioning kind of leaves a need to evaluate our situation in the order of the gender binaries, or *transitioning to the preferred gender.* To become oriented to the gender preference once you have arrived at post transition. The need to integrate and allow for new values to reorient ones preference according to the newly acquired gender identity and relationship with a compatible partner.

Well, speaking for myself, to become a deeper and more intimate relationship then any other time before. There  is a trust issue to remember, it took me a very long time to rebuild that trust in another individual. My soul mate which I have come to love more then anyone else in the world since my mom and pops were alive. More then any other partner I have ever been involved with in my previous life. This is only my opinion that I have drawn from my own experiences, and not necessarily reflects anyone one else's feelings on this topic or anyone else's on this forum for that mater.

The reorientation of gender preference for a partner after post-op could go either way for us.
To me it is the soul that lies within that person is what I needed to come to know intimately like that persons soul was inside of me, *both souls merging as one.* The physical sex is only part of that person but the characteristics or the core being that make that person to be feminine in character to male in character which has nothing to do with the physical aspect of the body. This core being is what truly makes that person regardless of the physical sex. Goodness OK now me gonna put my preachers robes away now.

Thus as you see there is still mush to learn and new ideas to adapt to. Feelings and perceptions that are constantly evolving, growing and changing. Post-op is a long ways from being boring or vacuous and you may have heard some say. It can be the most exciting part of your life, it is up to you what you wish to make of it. Stay in one place and stagnate or move along with the changes and enjoy the new challenges and experiences. Now I am talking like a wise old grandmother......hmmmmmmmmmmmmm. well I am an old grandmother.    

Cindy

[Suzy]

Dana,

You ask the most difficult question about this for many of us who are married to a partner we love, especially for the children involved.  So many of us have lost so much sleep over just this.  There are no easy answers.  There just aren't.  As has been said, most wives don't sign up for a lesbian relationship.  So if they need to leave, I think nobody should feel like they are somehow not honoring our commitment.  After all, we are the ones who changed it, not them.  As you have alluded to, the odds of a marriage staying together through transition are slim.  This does NOT mean it is impossible.  But that is only if both partners want it to be so.  Is that truly where your hearts are?  I am just not sure by reading your post.

I truly wish you the best!




Kristi

[Dana_W]

Thanks for the extra words of encouragement, advice, and empathy all. I certainly appreciate it. It's comforting to know I'm not crazy... in that there are plenty of other people who are going through this much the same way. It's a different path than those who automatically split up because the spouse can't handle the change at all, and also different from those who just roll with the gender change like it doesn't have a tremendous and fundamental impact to the relationship. It has this very "holy s***, what now?" feel to it. So many things previously assumed true are now in question, even without the questions being spoken. As so many of you have said, it seems to be a day by day thing we'll have to navigate as we go along. Not long ago I couldn't have conceived of voluntarily ending our marriage. Now it seems like something that may be for the best eventually. But then again, maybe we'll discover something new along the way that rekindles our desire to remain together somehow. I really don't know at this point.

On the other hand, I would like to quibble a bit about something Kristi mentioned:

After all, we are the ones who changed it, not them.

Well, yes. Technically. Sort of. I mean I could have continued on as an alcohol abusing depressive withdrawing ever further from my family and the rest of the world. I certainly did change that. And coming to terms with the gender issue played a HUGE role in allowing me to do that. But...

I rather look at this as a shared change. I'm not "imposing" it on her, no matter how it looks to an outsider. I'm finally getting help and honestly dealing with myself in ways to finally be healthy. To the extent this messes up the gender arrangement we went into our marriage with, well that's a mutual discovery and surprise. We both knew I had gender questioning issues before we were married. Neither one of us thought I was headed for gender transition, but both knew it might happen some day.

Could I simply decide not to go through with it so the gender balance of our relationship remained the same? Sure. But could I do it while avoiding a return to depression and possible suicide? I seriously doubt it. And as we're both in agreement we don't want that depressive element to return, that once again feels like a mutual decision.

Incidentally, I know that no court in America nor public opinion would back me on this view. But I'm kind of hoping it's something other transsexuals can understand. It might be one of those "you only get it if you experience it" things, but that doesn't make it any less true.

[tekla]

It all rolls into one and nothing comes for free,
Theres nothing you can hold, for very long.
And when you hear that song come crying like the wind,
It seems like all this life was just a dream.

Look, lots and lots of marriages break up without the gender issues.

And, for the record, I'm not really buying the 'shared change' deal.  Where one is changing a lot, the other a little, its almost like a hostage situation.

[Windrider]

It has this very "holy s***, what now?" feel to it.

*snort* Well, personally, that was my initial reaction to Dani coming out. I can most definitely say I didn't just "roll with it" and it certainly changes our relationship. However, I decided that not only could I live with the changes, I *like* them...because they're bringing back the person I love.

I rather look at this as a shared change. I'm not "imposing" it on her, no matter how it looks to an outsider.

Hrm, I don't know if I would agree here. IMHO, transition is not shared unless the spouse *chooses* to walk the path with you. If your wife does not choose to walk with you through transition, she may feel as if it is being imposed upon her. I don't know if it's possible for the relationship to survive if she doesn't choose to do so, because transition is pretty pervasive. It touches a lot of things about the relationship, not just intimacy and perception. I had to ask myself not only could I stay with Dani, but did I *want* to stay.

I'm finally getting help and honestly dealing with myself in ways to finally be healthy. To the extent this messes up the gender arrangement we went into our marriage with, well that's a mutual discovery and surprise. We both knew I had gender questioning issues before we were married. Neither one of us thought I was headed for gender transition, but both knew it might happen some day.

I'm glad you're getting help If your wife hasn't yet, I'd suggest that she look into therapy as well. I highly recommend couple's sessions, but I don't know if they'll work for you if you think your marriage won't survive. Still, they could be beneficial, so you may want to ask your therapist about it and see if your wife will go. If your wife doesn't want a couple's session, please urge her to get a therapist for herself, so she has a safe and objective place to voice her feelings too.

You may want to be careful with how much you assume your wife "knows". Dani told me about her gender issues after we had been dating for 6 months. I *chose* to ignore them, mainly because I thought <insert Dani's male name here> was a great person and was beginning to become my best friend. Two and a half years later we were married and Dani raised the issue of transitioning. I prayed to whatever dieties would listen that "it" would all go away. I got my wish...but at a very high price, because the person I loved went with it. Your wife may have "known" about your gender issues but she may also have chosen to ignore those issues or prayed they went away. "Knowing" does not automatically equal "dealing with".

I got lucky. It's been 9 years since that first time and here Dani and I are pursuing transition again, only this time, I'm not letting my love go. This time, I chose differently.

Best wishes!

WR

[Suzy]

On the other hand, I would like to quibble a bit about something Kristi mentioned:

After all, we are the ones who changed it, not them.

Well, yes. Technically. Sort of. I mean I could have continued on as an alcohol abusing depressive withdrawing ever further from my family and the rest of the world. I certainly did change that. And coming to terms with the gender issue played a HUGE role in allowing me to do that. But...

I totally understand what you are saying.  However, I think that you took what I said to mean that change is bad.  It is not.  Often it is the only healthy way to go.  But we do not change in a vacuum.   Even healthy changes we make in our lives (like the one you have made) greatly affect those around us.  It can be a while before things settle back into a balance.   That's where you are, deciding how the new relationship is going to work, or even if it is going to work.  The only certainty is that you will both be changed by this, probably profoundly.  Don't underestimate the difficulty of the transition your wife will have to make either.  Yes, it is a shared change.  There is no way around that.  But for some spouses, the change they choose is to walk away.

Again, I truly wish you the very best.

Kristi

[iFindMeHere]

Well, if you find yourself more attracted to men (and know without a doubt you can only be sexually and emotionally monogamous) I can understand. However, it's important to remember that you will go through some sexual shifts related to acknowledging how you really feel about your body. Pay attention to whether your feelings are due to that... or uncertainty about how your roles will change (because they likely will. I know mine have with my husband)... or perhaps even some hidden internal homophobia (it's possible! I was misandronistic for a long time and i believe this is part of why it took so long to acknowledge myself).

For two people to love each other so deeply for so long is a lot of work.. don't throw that away without really thinking about it.

[keriB]

Dana,

You ask the most difficult question about this for many of us who are married to a partner we love, especially for the children involved.  So many of us have lost so much sleep over just this.  There are no easy answers.  There just aren't.  As has been said, most wives don't sign up for a lesbian relationship.  So if they need to leave, I think nobody should feel like they are somehow not honoring our commitment.  After all, we are the ones who changed it, not them.  As you have alluded to, the odds of a marriage staying together through transition are slim.  This does NOT mean it is impossible.  But that is only if both partners want it to be so.
Kristi

Agreed... and also absolutely the worst singular issue to face.  My marriage and my children are what hold me back at the moment, though I sense a shifting in that.  I would absolutely love to have my marriage survive, but I think more than the internal dynamics against such a thing are the external societal ones.... which is what also holds me in check for the moment.  I know my wife could survive, and my kids will eventually adjust, but I worry over how they will be treated by others.  Which in some respects kind of makes look it as though a separation would in fact be a better option....  Bottom line is, however, ultimately taking ownership for whatever decision one makes...

[Wendy]

Dana,

At the Southern Comfort Conference in 2007 I met MTF's that had their spouses leave them because of lack of intimacy and vice versa.  I also met TS's that remained married but gave up intimacy.

One girlfriend gave me this thread and I will post my feelings.  My background is that I am older than you, married longer, my three children are older and I never shared my feelings with my wife.

I failed two times at self administered HRT and never told my wife.  The third time I started getting the mixtures correct because of all the information available on the internet.  Two years into self administration I was convinced by my friends on the internet to tell my wife.  It took two times of telling her separated by an horrendous relationship for 6 months before she understood.

About one year ago after the SCC my wife comprehended what I told her for the second time and we started talking to each other. 

Now if sexual intimacy defines a relationship then my marriage should have ended 15 years ago. 

Why my wife is with me I have not the foggiest idea!  I wanted her to leave so that I could spare her the issues I was having.

Before I told her I would sleep in bed with my street clothes to hide my body and my wife would sleep without her clothes.  After I told her the relationship slowly changed.  I would wear less clothes and she would wear more.  Finally she would go to bed with a jogging suite and I would be my androgynous self.

If I tell the world she says I must leave.  I believe her.  She accepts and is starting to understand my unusual behavior.

My wife set up an appointment for me with a gender therapist and I attended with my girlfriend (TG).  My girlfriend got some names for me for endo's.  My wife set up that appointment too.  I will go to the endo in a couple of weeks.  I have been taking unmonitored HRT for over 3.5 years.  I hope I have not destroyed my liver and kidneys.

A few days ago my wife told me she thought I was a much better person and she faced me in bed for the first time in years.  We snuggled like girls and it was nice.  I have absolutely no desire to act like a male.  She understands this.  She is not a "lesbian" but she really does love me.

About a year ago I told my wife if I had surgery I would like to be with a guy.  She told me that is sick.  Recently I told her the same thing and she said she understands and it would be O.K.

How do I feel about my wife?  I love her more than ever.  I never felt I would find my soulmate.  I think now I have found my soulmate.

Do I need intimacy to keep my marriage?  Well if you mean sexual intercourse the answer is absolutely not.  It would be nice but tenderness is just fine.  Kissing and holding hands and hugging and sleeping each other's arms is really nice.

If I do more I guess I will lose my wife but now I know she loves me.

My plans are now different than they were a year ago.  Instead of running away from the world and living a miserable life by myself I will try and "float".  I will try to slowly do different things and if it makes me a better person I will make those things part of me.  Maybe over time my wife will be with me and I will be closer to being "me".  This is what I have learned from my older girlfriends (TG). 

Dana you do have some control over what you do.  I am not able to function in society if I do nothing to address what is bothering me but I do have some options.

I wish you well.  It is all very complicated.

K