So why not?

[Nero]

Interalia:

Well, I suppose we may never know which is the defect until those monkeys are traumatized.
Okay, so you subscribe to the brain defect theory. Thing is, schizophrenics have medication to correct it. But the only known cure for GID has been transition. Therapy, shock treatments, etc have not worked. So what are your coping strategies? A schizophrenic cannot be 'talked' into a cure. They need medication. Same with GID. We need medical treatment to alleviate this.

I'm not in anyway trying to judge your choices and decisions; just really curious how you plan to do this.

[Just Kate]

Interalia:

Well, I suppose we may never know which is the defect until those monkeys are traumatized.
Okay, so you subscribe to the brain defect theory. Thing is, schizophrenics have medication to correct it. But the only known cure for GID has been transition. Therapy, shock treatments, etc have not worked. So what are your coping strategies? A schizophrenic cannot be 'talked' into a cure. They need medication. Same with GID. We need medical treatment to alleviate this.

I'm not in anyway trying to judge your choices and decisions; just really curious how you plan to do this.

By the grace of God.   Ok, j/k, but that does factor a little bit.

I have been experimenting with coping techniques for 7 years now.  If I find one that works, I implement it and use it in my daily life, if it doesn't work, I toss it out.  What I have found, is that the coping techniques often work like prescription medication.  Too much and it can have an adverse affect.

1) I have found out what specific triggers there are for my GID, and using learning-behavior techniques, have taught myself to no longer associate those stimuli with GID thoughts, but with more neutral ones.

2) I have done my best to focus on the things in my life that I have, rather than the things in my life I don't have.

3) I have learned that depression and other negative mental states provoke my GID and the GID persists long after the depressive stimulus is removed.  Thus, I do my best to control and prevent depression and drama in my life.

4) I have learned never, never, never to pretend my GID doesn't exist.  Doing so, even in periods where it is not bothering me as much, always stimulates the return of symptoms and they are normally far worse.

5) This goes along with #4, but I don't try to be anything I'm not.  I stopped playing "roles" for other people.  The roles invariably caused me difficulty as I often tried to appear as "masculine" as I could muster.

6) I am open with others about my condition.  Being open with others allows for greater authenticity in the relationship and less tendency to want to meet their expectations of me as a male.

7) I have several very close friends (including my wife) with whom I can speak to at any time when I start to feel the symptoms come on.  They all know me and my struggles and are there when needed - fortunately I'm relying on them less and less.

I think of all that I'd lose if I were to transition again and the pain it would bring about.

9) I present myself more androgynously in that I don't try to dress stereotypically for my sex - this prevents me from going into a role that is not conducive with my inner self.

I am experimenting with more techniques right now.  I will tell you if they work and add them to my growing list.   Others that are dealing with this the same way I am have learned some of their own coping techniques but I have not listed the ones that don't also work for me.  For some that is part-time living, or dressing up and going out occasionally.

[heatherrose]

Are you involved in any kind of thereputic counseling outside of your church?
Eventhough some of what I've posted and the manner in which I have presented it,
could be considered quite gruff, please do not think that I am attacking you or your motives.
My disdain is more directed squarely at the organization and supporting membership that seek
to undermine my civil rights at everyturn, utilizing their fortune, gleaned from the congregation.
Please, don't try to convince us that the Mormon church unconditionally accepts alternative lifestyles
with open arms, when their actions and our interactions with the membership denote otherwise.
I am concerned that you are setting yourself up for a great fall by putting your faith in
individuals who are not as supportive of you in your stuggle as you may think. You stated,
"I think of all that I'd lose if I were to transition again and the pain it would bring about."
Your own statement indicates that there is in fact no support
for someone who chooses to transition in your church.

[cindybc]

From the spiritual side.

The innerself knows who it is and will not rest until it establishes itself, till death do us part. A mission is better carried out if the  messenger knows itself and is at peace with him/herself, be it male or female. Even some cisgendered need to find themselves, know who their true inner selves are in order to be at peace with themselves.

Cindy

[heatherrose]

I am a chip off the old block of
"I am that I am".
In this light and if I stand like this,
you can see the family resemblence.

[Just Kate]

Are you involved in any kind of thereputic counseling outside of your church?
Eventhough some of what I've posted and the manner in which I have presented it,
could be considered quite gruff, please do not think that I am attacking you or your motives.
My disdain is more directed squarely at the organization and supporting membership that seek
to undermine my civil rights at everyturn, utilizing their fortune, gleaned from the congregation.
Please, don't try to convince us that the Mormon church unconditionally accepts alternative lifestyles
with open arms, when their actions and our interactions with the membership denote otherwise.
I am concerned that you are setting yourself up for a great fall by putting your faith in
individuals who are not as supportive of you in your stuggle as you may think. You stated,
"I think of all that I'd lose if I were to transition again and the pain it would bring about."
Your own statement indicates that there is in fact no support
for someone who chooses to transition in your church.

In all the things I said I find support with I did not mention the church.  The church knows next to nothing about my condition and while I am open to them about my situation, they don't pretend to know how to help.  They interact with me as with any other member.

My support comes from my wife and my close friends and from chatting with people on this site occasionally.  My faith is in them, myself, and my God, not the church.

As far as all that I would lose, I'm talking about my wife mostly.  I'd lose my wife - the one person in this world that means more to me than anyone else.  She means more to me than the whole of the church, more to me than my own life.  Transitioning would mean breaking a promise to her, the end of our relationship, and would be incredibly selfish of me.  If ever I'm tempted to transition, all I have to do is come to places like this forum, and read the heartbreak many individuals have gone through losing their wives and children and realize, I could never do that to my own wife.

I won't try to say that the church is accepting of whatever lifestyle, but you must stop putting words in my mouth when it comes to my religion.

[imaz]

I received a powerful prompting from the Holy Ghost (the voice of God), like a piercing voice to my soul as I knelt in prayer on this subject.  The revelation was for none but me - I don't claim to know what God says for other people, but I do believe when He communicates with me it is meant for me to follow it.

Let me know if you have any questions.

Have to say I'm truly shocked, I've never met anyone in my life who has made such a statement.

OK, personally I believe in what is written in the Quran 50:16 about Allah (swt)/God being closer than one's own jugular vein, but that's more His universal presence than actually Him talking to us.

Even the Quran itself was revealed to to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by Jibril/Gabriel so the fact you claim to be in direct contact with the Almighty just leaves me speechless to put it mildly.

Something's not right here.

[Just Kate]

Have to say I'm truly shocked, I've never met anyone in my life who has made such a statement.

OK, personally I believe in what is written in the Quran 50:16 about Allah (swt)/God being closer than one's own jugular vein, but that's more His universal presence than actually Him talking to us.

Even the Quran itself was revealed to to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by Jibril/Gabriel so the fact you claim to be in direct contact with the Almighty just leaves me speechless to put it mildly.

Something's not right here.

This is not an odd thing to me.  I believe God answers prayers.

Here is a statement from mormon.org that might better explain it:

"Your Heavenly Father is the source of all truth.  He loves you and wants to answer your questions. Therefore, He will help you recognize the truth as you sincerely seek it and ask Him for guidance. You can know if the things you are learning are true if you ask your Heavenly Father in prayer.  He desires for you to know the truth, and you can receive an answer from Him through the Holy Ghost. "

I basically needed an answer, prayed, and received it through the Holy Ghost.  Not all revelations are that powerful, some are like a small voice, but others are as with the voice of thunder - this was how it was for me concerning this particular revelation to de-transition and the blessings that could be had by doing so.

[heatherrose]

The church knows next to nothing about my condition...Transitioning would mean breaking a promise to her, the end of our relationship

On your blog, in your account of your visit with your BISHOP
It would seem that your church knows everything short of your prefered underware style.
Let me guess, you promised your wife that you would never transition again.



I do wish you many blessings in your journey and all
the strength that the "I am" can bestow on you.

If you want to know where my anti-organized religion bent comes from
Google Search "L.R.Davis, Christian Fellowship Ministries International"

Just watch out for yourself, Doll.

[Just Kate]

On your blog, in your account of your visit with your BISHOP
It would seem that your church knows everything short of your prefered underware style.
Let me guess, you promised your wife that you would never transition again.



I do wish you many blessings in your journey and all
the strength that the "I am" can bestow on you.

If you want to know where my anti-organized religion bent comes from
Google Search "L.R.Davis, Christian Fellowship Ministries International"

Just watch out for yourself, Doll.

You misunderstand me.  I mean they know next to nothing about how to help with my condition.  I've already mentioned I've told them everything.

I understand your desire to help me see the light, see that I'll never make it as a male, that ultimately I'll lose to this and either give up my life, or transition anyhow.  I've heard it over and over again and there is no way I can prove to you I will make it until I am dead.  That won't stop me from trying.  I'm doing my best to provide an example so people who deal with GID won't feel the hopelessness fostered by attitudes like those who tell me I cannot make it.  I want to show that for some, transition isn't the only option, but that is gonna take, research, work, and a ton of trial and error.  People can support me in my quest or get out of the way.   I hope to find others here, specifically on this non-op board, who are undertaking the same path - that we might be able to support each other and learn how to deal with this together.

[imaz]

This is not an odd thing to me.  I believe God answers prayers.

Here is a statement from mormon.org that might better explain it:

"Your Heavenly Father is the source of all truth.  He loves you and wants to answer your questions. Therefore, He will help you recognize the truth as you sincerely seek it and ask Him for guidance. You can know if the things you are learning are true if you ask your Heavenly Father in prayer.  He desires for you to know the truth, and you can receive an answer from Him through the Holy Ghost. "

I basically needed an answer, prayed, and received it through the Holy Ghost.  Not all revelations are that powerful, some are like a small voice, but others are as with the voice of thunder - this was how it was for me concerning this particular revelation to de-transition and the blessings that could be had by doing so.

"The Holy Ghost"? And what is that exactly?

I may be mistaken but AFAIK the concept of the Trinity was an invention of the Roman Empire for political purposes and not something put forward by the early Christians who were of course in reality Jews.

Jesus was a Jew himself or if one sees it from a traditional Islamic perspective a Muslim in the sense that he truly submitted to God.

[Nero]

Well Interalia, I don't pretend to know or understand how one can make it through GID without transitioning. But as there are many who can't transition for whatever reason (it looked for awhile I might've been one of them), this is certainly a worthy mission you've got here.

[Just Kate]

"The Holy Ghost"? And what is that exactly?

I may be mistaken but AFAIK the concept of the Trinity was an invention of the Roman Empire for political purposes and not something put forward by the early Christians who were of course in reality Jews.

Jesus was a Jew himself or if one sees it from a traditional Islamic perspective a Muslim in the sense that he truly submitted to God.

Good thing I don't prescribe to the Trinity.

Really you seem an intelligent person.  Check our mormon.org or the official church website lds.org for more information about us.  You might be surprised what you learn. 

As for the Holy Ghost, I believe it to be the 3rd member of the Godhead, a distinct individual whose responsibility is to reveal truth.  Because we believe God to be a physical being and therefore is not everywhere at once, He uses the Holy Ghost to act as a witness to our spirits (our inner core) to tell us what He would have us do.  The Holy Ghost, by virtue of being a Spirit can accomplish this role of revealing truth to all who seek it even at the same time without God making a personal appearance.

This is all Mormon doctrine though and not relevant to the thread.  I'd be happy to talk to you through PM if you'd like to know more.
Post Merge: April 05, 2009, 06:13:44 PM

Well Interalia, I don't pretend to know or understand how one can make it through GID without transitioning. But as there are many who can't transition for whatever reason (it looked for awhile I might've been one of them), this is certainly a worthy mission you've got here.

Thank you so very much.  I really hope to be a help to them as well.   I pray for my success not only for myself but for all those who need an alternative to transition!  It's too bad that if I'm successful it still might take a generation before my influence  of what I've learned will be felt. Most people would not undertake a path unless they believed it would lead to success and right now, I cannot promise it will be - so I doubt people would willfully undertake what I am trying to do.

[heatherrose]

People can support me in my quest or get out of the way.   I hope to find others here, specifically on this non-op board, who are undertaking the same path - that we might be able to support each other and learn how to deal with this together.

Ok, I'll put the club away.

I'm not talking to an LDS mole, am I?



Be aware that the can of worms that you are
about to open up is akin to the dreaded,
"Nature vs. Nurture" and "Magic Cure" questions.

[Just Kate]

Ok, I'll put the club away.

I'm not talking to an LDS mole, am I?

Bhahahahaha!  I guess you'll never know!

[imaz]

Good thing I don't prescribe to the Trinity.

Really you seem an intelligent person.  Check our mormon.org or the official church website lds.org for more information about us.  You might be surprised what you learn. 

As for the Holy Ghost, I believe it to be the 3rd member of the Godhead, a distinct individual whose responsibility is to reveal truth.  Because we believe God to be a physical being and therefore is not everywhere at once, He uses the Holy Ghost to act as a witness to our spirits (our inner core) to tell us what He would have us do.  The Holy Ghost, by virtue of being a Spirit can accomplish this role of revealing truth to all who seek it even at the same time without God making a personal appearance.

That's where we agree to disagree. We believe God is everywhere and in the concept of "Taqwa" - the awareness or consciousness of the omniprecence of God and one's behaviour in consequence.

Whilst we believe in Angels and Djin (supernatural beings that like humans have free will as opposed to Angels that do not) We do not however believe in intermediaries between ourselves and God and indeed the Quran warns us against the establishment of a clerical hierarchy.

Enough with religion, it's hardly right for a mega sinner such as myself to lecture on it!

[Just Kate]

That's where we agree to disagree. We believe God is everywhere and in the concept of "Taqwa" - the awareness or consciousness of the omniprecence of God and one's behaviour in consequence.

Whilst we believe in Angels and Djin (supernatural beings that like humans have free will as opposed to Angels that do not) We do not however believe in intermediaries between ourselves and God and indeed the Quran warns us against the establishment of a clerical hierarchy.

Enough with religion, it's hardly right for a mega sinner such as myself to lecture on it!

NP, I figured we'd have different ideas on things.  I just was trying to explain how it is I could come to believe that God spoke to me.   I don't expect anyone to believe my story, but they don't have to.  Regardless of my initial motivation for doing what I'm doing or how supernatural it is, I'm looking for very real answers to problems we face with answers that involve practical techniques.

[Joseph]

Have to say I'm truly shocked, I've never met anyone in my life who has made such a statement.

OK, personally I believe in what is written in the Quran 50:16 about Allah (swt)/God being closer than one's own jugular vein, but that's more His universal presence than actually Him talking to us.

Even the Quran itself was revealed to to Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) by Jibril/Gabriel so the fact you claim to be in direct contact with the Almighty just leaves me speechless to put it mildly.

Something's not right here.

I have experienced something very similar to what Interalia described; though the message was not specifically to transition or not to transition, per se.  However it occurred while I was seeking God in this same matter and related to how I was to get through the rest of my life.  As a Christian I also believe that one can talk to God directly and receive direct revelatory responses.

"The Holy Ghost"? And what is that exactly?

I may be mistaken but AFAIK the concept of the Trinity was an invention of the Roman Empire for political purposes and not something put forward by the early Christians who were of course in reality Jews.

Jesus was a Jew himself or if one sees it from a traditional Islamic perspective a Muslim in the sense that he truly submitted to God.

You have already agreed to disagree on this, and I will too.    But since you asked I thought I might as well give an answer from a Christian perspective.  This is slightly lengthy but it's hard to give a 1-sentence answer that still makes sense.  Also if you just ignore this, I'm fine with that. If it isn't obvious, I like this sort of theological discussion.

We believe the Bible is a story of redemption, about a God who created humans for a wonderful relationship with Him, but how humans decided we'd rather be lovers of other things - created things, rather than our Creator.  Anyone who has been through a relationship breakup knows of the ugliness that ensues; this was the ultimate breakup.  But God still loved and pursued us anyway and extended his forgiveness to us through Jesus Christ, who was God in the flesh.  There is a price that comes with forgiveness of any kind.  If someone breaks something of yours and doesn't have the money to pay you back, and you forgive them, all is well - but you have borne the cost.  The same goes if someone has insulted you - if you forgive them, it does not make the pain of the insult, which you bear, any less.  Forgiveness is necessary to restore broken relationships.  Having rejected the life for which we were created, there was nothing but death (both physical and spiritual) headed our way.  God himself, in the form of the man Jesus, bore the price of human rejection for all time through his death in our place.  His resurrection from the dead showed he had the power to "cancel our debts" so to speak.  50 days after his resurrection, the "Holy Ghost" or "Holy Spirit" - that is God Himself in Spirit - was given to the followers of Christ on a day called Pentecost.  Why that day?  It is historically and symbolically linked to the Jewish "Feast of Weeks", which was being celebrated at the same time as Pentecost.  The Feast of Weeks celebrates the original giving of the 10 commandments.  The Holy Spirit is thus a sign of the "new covenant" under Christ, as the 10 commandments symbolized the covenant of the Law given to Moses.  (As an aside, we believe the Law was given to illustrate our need for forgiveness.)  For those who accept God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ and resume the relationship for which we were created, the Holy Spirit is with us always as our counselor and comforter, with whom our own human spirits can interact, even as two human spirits can communicate.

That is a nutshell explanation, which hopefully makes some sort of sense.  As for the term "Trinity" it is not found in the Bible; however the Bible does describe one God who has revealed Himself to us in different forms, Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit.  This is something that the early Christians believed.  For example, Paul was a staunch Jew who wrote a large portion of the New Testament (everything between Romans and Philemon) - and he strongly affirms Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God.  It is true that the four "Ecumenical Councils" that took place under the Roman Empire between 325-451 AD affirmed this three-fold concept of one God, but if something is "true" you only discover/affirm it; you don't create it, any more than Newton "created" the concept of gravity when he discovered/affirmed it.  At the time the Roman Empire was in the process of making Christianity the official religion of the Empire and wanted to come to a Church-wide understanding of what the Bible says, so that people would know the difference between "orthodox" belief and the many heretical beliefs that had cropped up by that time.  (And by the way, the term "trinity" was coined by Tertullian, who died in about 220, long before the Roman councils.  Christians needed a term to use instead of 50-word explanation.  Why do we call gravity "gravity"?  I'm not sure, but as long as everyone knows what's being referred to, that is what matters.)

All the best,
Joseph

[cindybc]

I am not here nor did I come here to dissuade or persuade anyone against or for their religious beliefs or what gender they should or should not transition to be.  Those are the choices of the individual who holds their own convictions to be true unto themselves.

I can only say that for myself I am where I struggled to be for many years and I certainly am not going back. I am convinced that this was what Great Spirit directed me and to enable me and give me the strength to accomplish whatever my mission as a light worker is to be.

I try to steer away from religions and haven't stepped foot in a church since I was 16 years old for different reasons, among which one was mental abuse. I know some things about religion and I have kept some of the pieces that help me to understand certain aspect of this reality to connect with other potential realities.

Great Spirit or Creator *is creation* and I see the Holy Spirit as the web that binds all in creation as one. Jesus was/is a messenger of the Creator, containing as much of the Spirit of Creator as a human physical body can contain. He came here to show us the way, through the Christ Consciousness.

Interalia, how do you receive your messages from God? I receive mine via my "little voice." The little voice is not audible through my ears. It manifests itself through my own thought processes. Like my own thoughts but not my own, very distinctly not my own, as I have mentioned before on this thread. It is never wrong.

Listen carefully to this little voice, it speaks clearly but it is also so easy to reject or ignore it.

Another way that the little voice comes to me can be right in the middle of typing out a post like I am right now. When I come to the end of the posting to discover that much of what I have typed out was done when I was not conscious of it. Some call it auto writing.

Many a times it comes out more clear and concise than what I could have composed. Sometimes one or two pages long. Pretty good for someone who can only type with two fingers, eh?

No one here can make you do anything, like transition or die, as you are already convinced you are on your way to finding the answer, hon. May God bless if you do.

I mean that most sincerely. But it is just possible that you should be certain and convinced you can accomplish this mission. With that conviction you have something to present at the meeting table called transgender message boards.

Cindy

[imaz]

I have experienced something very similar to what Interalia described; though the message was not specifically to transition or not to transition, per se.  However it occurred while I was seeking God in this same matter and related to how I was to get through the rest of my life.  As a Christian I also believe that one can talk to God directly and receive direct revelatory responses.

You have already agreed to disagree on this, and I will too.    But since you asked I thought I might as well give an answer from a Christian perspective.  This is slightly lengthy but it's hard to give a 1-sentence answer that still makes sense.  Also if you just ignore this, I'm fine with that. If it isn't obvious, I like this sort of theological discussion.

We believe the Bible is a story of redemption, about a God who created humans for a wonderful relationship with Him, but how humans decided we'd rather be lovers of other things - created things, rather than our Creator.  Anyone who has been through a relationship breakup knows of the ugliness that ensues; this was the ultimate breakup.  But God still loved and pursued us anyway and extended his forgiveness to us through Jesus Christ, who was God in the flesh.  There is a price that comes with forgiveness of any kind.  If someone breaks something of yours and doesn't have the money to pay you back, and you forgive them, all is well - but you have borne the cost.  The same goes if someone has insulted you - if you forgive them, it does not make the pain of the insult, which you bear, any less.  Forgiveness is necessary to restore broken relationships.  Having rejected the life for which we were created, there was nothing but death (both physical and spiritual) headed our way.  God himself, in the form of the man Jesus, bore the price of human rejection for all time through his death in our place.  His resurrection from the dead showed he had the power to "cancel our debts" so to speak.  50 days after his resurrection, the "Holy Ghost" or "Holy Spirit" - that is God Himself in Spirit - was given to the followers of Christ on a day called Pentecost.  Why that day?  It is historically and symbolically linked to the Jewish "Feast of Weeks", which was being celebrated at the same time as Pentecost.  The Feast of Weeks celebrates the original giving of the 10 commandments.  The Holy Spirit is thus a sign of the "new covenant" under Christ, as the 10 commandments symbolized the covenant of the Law given to Moses.  (As an aside, we believe the Law was given to illustrate our need for forgiveness.)  For those who accept God's forgiveness through Jesus Christ and resume the relationship for which we were created, the Holy Spirit is with us always as our counselor and comforter, with whom our own human spirits can interact, even as two human spirits can communicate.

That is a nutshell explanation, which hopefully makes some sort of sense.  As for the term "Trinity" it is not found in the Bible; however the Bible does describe one God who has revealed Himself to us in different forms, Father, Son (Jesus), and Holy Spirit.  This is something that the early Christians believed.  For example, Paul was a staunch Jew who wrote a large portion of the New Testament (everything between Romans and Philemon) - and he strongly affirms Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God.  It is true that the four "Ecumenical Councils" that took place under the Roman Empire between 325-451 AD affirmed this three-fold concept of one God, but if something is "true" you only discover/affirm it; you don't create it, any more than Newton "created" the concept of gravity when he discovered/affirmed it.  At the time the Roman Empire was in the process of making Christianity the official religion of the Empire and wanted to come to a Church-wide understanding of what the Bible says, so that people would know the difference between "orthodox" belief and the many heretical beliefs that had cropped up by that time.  (And by the way, the term "trinity" was coined by Tertullian, who died in about 220, long before the Roman councils.  Christians needed a term to use instead of 50-word explanation.  Why do we call gravity "gravity"?  I'm not sure, but as long as everyone knows what's being referred to, that is what matters.)

All the best,
Joseph

Thank you for your kind explanation, it had long puzzled me status of the Trinity within the Christian religion.

Unfortunately I'm not at your theological level to be able to take you on with a detailed refutation!

Personally I believe that all three Abrahamic faiths are different interpretations of the same faith. Which of them is right or wrong is not for us to judge but for God alone.

Take care,

imaz