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So why not?

Started by Jill, April 02, 2009, 09:11:22 PM

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arbon

QuoteThe other side of my coin is that thanks to inexpensive surgery and p.c medics there are a lot of people losing penisses and getting vaginas who are definitely not TS.


What is the criteria you use to determine who is and who is not TS?
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Fencesitter

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 15, 2010, 06:40:59 AM
bottom surgery for FtMs is such a major crapshoot that it is understandable that not many choose to go for it...and as that means most FtMs will never get a functioning penis then it is perfectly acceptable to retain and use the vagina.

Well there's also the less extreme surgery of just getting a dlitpen, leaving the hole as it is, not urethral lengthening and maybe getting rid of the female labia plus, if you want, silicone testicle implants in the outer labia. Or even more minor surgeries (loosening the testoclit so it's more at the front, which is a small cut through a fiber and a few stitches, plus getting rid of the inner labia so the whole thing looks a bit less female - it's no worse an operation than a male circumcision, local anesthesia and you can go home immediately after that).

These solutions give you "only" ambiguous genitalia but are less risky as far as I know than the typical MTF operation with neovagina etc., and especially the minor version I mentioned is really no big deal. Of course, you cannot make intercourse with the clitpen, but I'm not sure your argument is completely valid as there's other things you can do with the little guy. 

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 15, 2010, 06:40:59 AMHowever I just can't accept the idea of non-op MtFs as keeping a penis let alone using it is so male and the surgery to replace it is affordable and quite successful so there really isn't much reason to choose to be non-op...except that the person isn't really TS.

Being transsexual is a constant mind->-bleeped-<- and gets you very skilled at coping with the dysphoria  over the decades by using mental tricks, as you have to deal with it all the time before transition. Some transsexuals might be able to trick their mind so well that they get along with whatever genitalia they were born with. (I do that.) Plus for some of us, the social transition is much more important than the physical transition so... well. And by the way, my ex (cis) girlfriend liked to fool around with strap-ons, so what does that tell us? I think there's different kinds of being transsexual, not just one strict version with very clear detailed "symptoms" equal for everyone.
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Shana A

There are many paths for trans people, choosing non-op is equally legitimate as choosing surgeries or other medical options. Please respect each persons' choices as being right for them!

Z
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Just Kate

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 15, 2010, 06:40:59 AM
bottom surgery for FtMs is such a major crapshoot that it is understandable that not many choose to go for it...and as that means most FtMs will never get a functioning penis then it is perfectly acceptable to retain and use the vagina.
However I just can't accept the idea of non-op MtFs as keeping a penis let alone using it is so male and the surgery to replace it is affordable and quite successful so there really isn't much reason to choose to be non-op...except that the person isn't really TS.
The other side of my coin is that thanks to inexpensive surgery and p.c medics there are a lot of people losing penisses and getting vaginas who are definitely not TS.

It is strange, but for some reason this post struck me as misogynist... I cannot quite place my finger on it.  Perhaps it struck me funny, but it seems to point out that penis = man = superior.  Almost like saying, "Men wouldn't accept poor quality penises; and only a man would be proud enough of his to keep it after he has transitioned to female."

Oh well, that's just my tiny speculation - more seriously, I don't take offense at your post lilac but I have a very hard time understanding it.  To my knowledge there is little to no medical diagnostic that can determine transsexuality - it is only by self evaluation currently.  The closest we have to criteria is in the DSM describing GID.  No where does it say one must have/desire surgery (if that surgery can be successful and not a "major crapshoot") to be transsexual.

Despite all that, the BIGGEST problem I have with your diagnosis is that back when I transitioned, the ideas you presented ABOUNDED!  Even the damned medical professionals were all in on the game.  TS equaled surgery - period.  This meant a lot of people made some very poor decisions for themselves - getting SRS.  Why?  Because they felt they had to or were otherwise told it was necessary, or were socially ostracized by their ONLY peer group (other TS's) if they didn't feel they wanted it.  It means lying to therapists to get letters and not getting the real treatment they needed because everyone colored everything GID related into two varieties: surgery-bound or pervert.  You didn't want to be a pervert, so surgery-bound was the next best option.  Those people were responsible for their own decision and they are paying for them now - but many of them could have been saved the experience had more tolerance existed for those whose GID didn't sent them running for a knife.
Ill no longer be defined by my condition. From now on, I'm just, Kate.

http://autumnrain80.blogspot.com
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arbon

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Cindy Stephens

     I must confess to taking actual offense at Lilacwomans' statement.  I see absolutely no difference between her statement and the semi-sane ramblings of the "holier-than-thou" right-wing Christians shilling for The Big Baptist Business Church who I see so frequently here in the south.  Lilacwoman shall determine on her own terms who shall be allowed to tread upon the inner sanctum and receive the title of Transsexual.  Boy, isn't that exactly what the Wednesday woman's bible study group does?  Perhaps, like them, you have not developed that emotion called empathy, wherein you have the ability to put yourself into the situation or mindset of another. 
     Fortunately, I am pretty tough and care not a whit what she thinks.  I do care that someone young and impressionable will make some choice based on Lilacwomans bias, rather than her own true feelings and nature.  I agree with phoenix that it is like cancer, and perhaps needs the least of attention and  surgical measures that will cure the problem.  Between 18 and 30, I was most desirous of the surgery.  I could neither afford it, nor was it particularly available.  I found that, for me, as I became moderately successful and had choices, that the burning desire for surgery left me.  I still have that passion for  transition.
     I have a penis, sure.  But IT PRETTY MUCH DOESN'T WORK!  Most girls, like me, on hormones and anti-hormones etc. rarely get an erection.  Out of sight, out of mind.  The beast is dead.  I am able to fully satisfy my wife, as I did for previous boyfriends, with exactly what I have now; a mouth, hands, and a very active imagination.  Occasionally, with extreme effort, I get a dry orgasm totally different from any male orgasm.  A sharing with another rather than a conquest. That works for us, and we are happy.  I apologize if this has been graphic or if it seems to be in any form an attack.  I am merely defending myself from the heinous charge of "transsexual blasphemy" hurled by someone who obviously doesn't consider me "worthy" as a sister. 
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Agent_J

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 15, 2010, 06:40:59 AM
it is affordable

No, it isn't.  It's only seen as so by those with certain economic/financial privilege.  For some it is financially unobtainable.
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tekla

I see absolutely no difference between her statement and the semi-sane ramblings of the "holier-than-thou" right-wing Christians shilling for The Big Baptist Business Church who I see so frequently here in the south. 

Wow, someone who agrees with me.

As for the money, work harder.  Money is easy if you give up everything else.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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Izumi

Quote from: Laura91 on August 15, 2010, 07:22:43 PM
Indeed. If someone thinks that anything that is thousands (or tens of thousands) of dollars is "affordable" they need to take a refresher course on economics.

Its only unobtainable because people put there own barriers in the way.  Anyone that wants success has to go for it and take it not expect it to be given to them, and not quit just because it gets hard.  My parents had literally nothing when they came to the US, my dad only had his education which he used to support his family and he worked damn hard to get what he has, two houses (one vacation home) and a comfortable retirement.  It took him 30 years but he did it, and anyone else can, if you think a few thousand dollars is unobtainable, you have already failed before you even started.  I was a loser too with no money till i did something about it and tried to get my life on track... if you have seen my before and after pictures you will see, and now a few thousand is not really much either, when it would have been impossible for me before, all i did was care about my life and try and not quit when things got hard.  try it, you might get amazed at the results.

Also bill gates had nothing, started microsoft in his garage now look at him... dont sell yourself short~
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lilacwoman

well I have to say that my own transition here in the UK with a supposedly free healthservice has cost me in excess of $15,000 over the last 2.5 years which considering our cost of living like petrol and deisel have been $7 a gallon for a few years now must mean that anyone in USA ought to be able to find that amount in a short space of time with your high wages, service economy, climate, and low cost of living.
Basically I just don't get the idea of a transitioned Mtf choosing to keep a penis and use it as sticking it in and humping is such a male thing.
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Nicky

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 18, 2010, 04:41:28 PM
Basically I just don't get the idea of a transitioned Mtf choosing to keep a penis and use it as sticking it in and humping is such a male thing.

You know, I think we often make a mistake of thinking everyone else is just like us. For you it is an abhorant idea. For me I was fine with it. I really enjoyed sex with my penis, intercourse was just one aspect of that. If all you do is stick it in and hump then that sounds like a lack of imagination. If you trust someone and love them, and have that emotional connection, some things don't matter so much. I did not feel like a guy using it, I was just me, enjoying the feelings, and what it gave to my partner. Just cause you have some male equipment does not automatically make the act itself a male expression. I loved the intimacy, the feel of my partner moving against me, becoming one connected being. I could look down and imagine it was her penetrating me at the same time. And on top of that it felt great! Oh no, I was such a man...complete rubish.

Not that I use it now, and it is a relief to be freed of that need. But there are other considerations, like if you have a partner that really loves intercourse, you might do it for them rather than yourself, even if you don't particulalry like it. There is nothing wrong with doing something to satisfy your partner. As long as you feel ok about it. Women and men have being doing that since the beginning of time. Consider too that lots of lesbian and non-lesbian couples use strapons. Does that make them less as woman? Not at all. Are they having sex in a male way? No, not at all.

So we come in all shapes a sizes. Some of us just are not as traumatised in having a penis as you were Lilac. It is not a reflection on your femininity or how much of a woman you are. It is just the way you are.

Having a penis or not does not define us as men or woman. That is such a limited point of view. We are so much more than our genitalia. I could just as easily say because you think that non-ops are not ts means you can't be a ts either because you lack womanly empathy. That is ridiculous too.

Just accept it lilac, don't be so inflexible. It does not hurt you to accept that other people are different from you, it does not any way affect your identity as a woman, it does not make you more of a woman believing what you do. A non-ops desire to be the person they are is just as strong as yours.
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Fencesitter

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 18, 2010, 04:41:28 PM
Basically I just don't get the idea of a transitioned Mtf choosing to keep a penis and use it as sticking it in and humping is such a male thing.

Oh my ex occasionally borrowed my strap-on to hump me and she loved it. She was a femme lesbian and not transgendered in any way. Go tell her that there was something wrong with that. Or tell me as I liked it too.
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arbon

"that lilacwoman can only see that vision in her head"  Maybe she should have saved her money and kept her thingy, considering how much she likes to poke people and how obsessed she is with making a point.

That is going to get me in trouble.
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pheonix

Quote from: Cindy Stephens on August 18, 2010, 06:47:28 PMI find it interesting that  after being informed that many of us do not use our penis's in the humping manner, that lilacwoman can only see that vision in her head, and brag about how much she has spent on transition while rubbing it in to her American cousins that her medical is free.  Could she try any harder to insult and denigrate non-ops without even the hint of attempting to actually understand what the other attitude is?

Cindy, from seeing other posts on the board from her like this one:

Quote from: lilacwoman on August 20, 2010, 01:40:42 AM
Quote from: kyrilAnd skip all the fancy, lacy styles in favour of seamless satins, soft synthetics and cotton stretch knits. The uneven fabrics like lace, especially lace trim, can rub, dig in and chafe.

that's man talk...
bras are fun and confirmation of increasing femininity so I go for lacy, pretty colours

it's pretty clear she's got some GID emotional baggage regarding gender to deal with that she is ignoring.   Using lace to confirm her own femininity?   Shouldn't our femininity come from who we are, not what clothes we wear?  I'm not challenging her sense of being female, but more pointing out how this comments could indicate her self-esteem in this area isn't strong yet and it's causing things like these posts.   Until she clears her own head, trying to rationally explain our positions won't ever let her see how we're all transsexual.
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Fencesitter

Quote from: pheonix on August 20, 2010, 05:46:38 AM
Cindy, from seeing other posts on the board from her like this one:

that's man talk...
bras are fun and confirmation of increasing femininity so I go for lacy, pretty colours


it's pretty clear she's got some GID emotional baggage regarding gender to deal with that she is ignoring.   Using lace to confirm her own femininity?   Shouldn't our femininity come from who we are, not what clothes we wear?  I'm not challenging her sense of being female, but more pointing out how this comments could indicate her self-esteem in this area isn't strong yet and it's causing things like these posts.   Until she clears her own head, trying to rationally explain our positions won't ever let her see how we're all transsexual.

pheonix,

this is getting too personal.

First, we should be discussing the topic here, not the people who post. Even if they post things we strongly disagree with, may hurt us or they have become personal in the discussion themselves. Saying STOP or deescalating is better than bitching back if you don't want the thread to be closed - and this thread is much too interesting and important to get killed.

Second, though it's off topic in this thread, I know a couple of GG who wear lacy etc. bras for exactly the same reasons as lilacwoman, so I don't get your point here anyway. But I don't want to get into this topic any further as it would be discussing about a person, not about her opinions.
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pheonix

I feel it is on topic.  If I were to go into the the SRS thread and were to post something like:

Quote from: fakeposterThe fixation of come people to cosmetically add the exterior appearance of a vagina is transvestic fetishism at its worst, and proves Blanchard right!.  Proof of the cosmetic nature arises by the fact that without intervention the surgical mangina will heal itself closed.

I would be bounced from this forum quicker that you can post.

I don't, by the way, believe that opinion, but it is the equivalent of what lilac and others have posted here.  They get told we need to be more accepting and no repercussions for them despite returning over and over to our thread.

This thread is not about why you should be op... nor is it about discouraging non-op.

It is about letting the voice of non-ops -- those of us who aren't intending to have GRS, to explain why... to educate and maybe show folks on the fence there are other options besides what the majority espouse as gospel.

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Raven

I can't transition because I can't afford it and I don't have insurance. I cope by dressing as a guy and just being myself as much as possible. My family and friends I haven't came out to yet views me as tom boy which is fine for now. I'm pretty much ok with myself for the most part but I do have my days when I have feelings of self hatered and some other things. I do dress as a girl time to time as a way to keep my family off my back from dressing like a guy most of the time. As for more intimate things I tell my partner what I will allow and my limits. Sadly concerning that part one guy disrespected that and talked me into some stuff and he is the guy I plan to divorce. But yea I just try to be who I really am as much as possible.
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lilacwoman

 :D :D :D  No more posts from me on Non-ops.
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Lacey Lynne

Quote from: CindyJames on April 03, 2009, 02:36:47 AM
Similar to Janet, but also I have an enormous commitment to my disabled wife. She accepts me and love me but would have problems with me being female 27/7/365.
It also costs a fortune for her therapy and care, and I cannot afford to lose my job.

How do I cope. I don't. I just don't have a choice.
How do I cope? This place helps a lot. I'm also in a TG club and they are very supportive. My family knows and accepts me.

Yea
Cindy James

@ Cindy James:


Honey, like God, I had no idea!

I'm so sorry to hear that.  That is SO righteous of you to rise to the call of duty and devotion and put her welfare ahead of your own.  I majorly respect that ... MAJORLY!  Look, if you ever need to talk, PM me, okay?  Your choice. 

Wish I could help.    :embarrassed:
Believe.  Persist.  Arrive.    :D



Julie Vu (Princess Joules) Rocks!  "Hi, Sunshine Sparkle Faces!" she says!
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JosephKT

So why not and how does one cope.

I will not transition because for better or worse this is my body.  My personal beliefs lead me to believe I will come out of my life stronger by coming to harmony with my body and mind and if I can do this with surgical alterations so much the better.  It's not that I look negatively on GRS, SRS or anyone who chooses to take the route, that in itself requires a kind of strength I can't imagine.  This is about what I believe is the path made for me, or the path I've chosen depending on how I choose to look at it on a given day.

I cope by obsessively focusing on things I do have control over in my life.  It makes me look like a work-a-holic and people tell me I expect too much from myself, but if I'm not always looking to self-improve I can only fall back into habits self-destruction.  It's honestly not the healthiest coping mechanism, but without much in the way of support or understanding honestly it's all I've got to keep going.
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