The LDS "church" & Transsexualism

[Witch of Hope]

As the LDS church manual of  instructions (issue 1999) describes, there are for Mormons two different kinds of transsexuals:
Those which are already Mormons (they are excommunicated immediately, and mayn't be baptized again, except, they cancel everything again. And those which have their Transition already behind themselves, but not yet werebaptized. Special rules are applay for this group:

1. Before their baptism they must put first of all to themselves many, often of very intimate questions by local (bishop) and national (Stake President, Apostle) church leader.

2. Transsexuals may marry neither in the temple, nor what is as important for them,  to make for themselves or / and their ancestors, holy sacraments

3. The men who are born as women mayn't receive the priesthood.

All this makes transsexual people to second-class members in the LDS "church", and offends in my opinion against laws (however, there you know more). I find, such a thing isn't to be accepted! This "church" tramples around on our civil rights, as if they had in addition the RIGHT to do that. It becomes time to show once the Mormon that they mayn't permit everything to themselves.

PS:
I still have a personal question: I can't answer  my PM, and also send no PM. What do I make wrong? Where must I change something?

[Just Kate]

I cannot speak for every Mormon - but I can speak for myself.  I was not excommunicated even when I transitioned.  My leaders attempted to do their best to understand what it meant to be transsexual.  Granted, they encouraged me not to transition, but they are allowed to tell me what they believe to be best for me, and it is my choice to follow it.  Had I continued on with transsexual surgery, they would have had to make a choice to keep me as a member, but I have a feeling they would have.

The church handbook of instruction given to bishops is a guidebook - not the hard and fast rules.  The bishops and leaders are supposed to follow the Spirit first, the rules second.  As such, many transsexuals have had different experiences with their bishops.  Some have had very negative experiences, others have had positive ones.  Generally, those who have a testimony of the Gospel, who sustained the leadership, and who didn't behave themselves without meekness, have remained members regardless of their decision concerning transition.

Churches have a right to decide what to do considering their own member's memberships status and who it accepts as members, just as people have a right not to join or remain members.  I don't think this constitutes trampling on anyone's civil rights.

[Witch of Hope]

I cannot speak for every Mormon - but I can speak for myself.  I was not excommunicated even when I transitioned.  My leaders attempted to do their best to understand what it meant to be transsexual.  Granted, they encouraged me not to transition, but they are allowed to tell me what they believe to be best for me, and it is my choice to follow it.  Had I continued on with transsexual surgery, they would have had to make a choice to keep me as a member, but I have a feeling they would have.

I speak also from my experiences and what i did see from the US, Germany and China. And there they act full after this handbook.
The problem is, that they disn't accept a transperson as normal member of their "church", and it doesn't matter how far do you goin with your transition. my Bishop thought, after i was telling him that i was trans and need a surgery to feel myself complite, that I WANT TOLEAVE THE CHURCH! But this wasn't my desire at that time.

The church handbook of instruction given to bishops is a guidebook - not the hard and fast rules.  The bishops and leaders are supposed to follow the Spirit first, the rules second.  As such, many transsexuals have had different experiences with their bishops.  Some have had very negative experiences, others have had positive ones.  Generally, those who have a testimony of the Gospel, who sustained the leadership, and who didn't behave themselves without meekness, have remained members regardless of their decision concerning transition.

This is wrong! If a Bishop want that I stay in the church,even as a transperson, HE would be immidiently excommunicated. This handbook is seen as a Revelation from God to the Church leaders. It is not a "You are free to act", it is a "thus speak the LORD".

Churches have a right to decide what to do considering their own member's memberships status and who it accepts as members, just as people have a right not to join or remain members.  I don't think this constitutes trampling on anyone's civil rights.

They hasn't the right to keep us away from OUR rights. We are not 2nd class citizens/members, we have the same rights as anyone else. If we make a sex change surgery, are we sinfull for that? If we want to live our life as the person we are, is that to be ashamed? No!!!! But it is to a church who act like the LDS do in this case, to be ashamed.
Here, what a former member of the church (she was also trans) said about your topic and my comments to it:

I agree with you ref your comments about *** and the Church.  .I too do not think I could go back and really I do not wish to.  I dislike the church and the people, for the church breeds a certain type and I do not like it.

Think of it.

[V M]

I'm not much of the religious sort. But I live in a town that may as well be called Mormon Land. Most are nice to me, some get weirded out on me. Then again, most of them can't decide if I'm a boy or a girl. Actually many seem to think I'm a girl pretending to be a boy, which is somewhat accurate in my opinion  They seem to have given up on my attending church. Some of the women have commented that nice girls wear bras and dresses. They're just people. Some are rather helpful. Some are a pain in the butt. That's just people

[Just Kate]

I'm sorry for the seemingly rotten experiences you had with your church leaders and members and am sorry you do not feel you can believe in it anymore.

That is where you and I differ it seems.  My belief and faith is in no way conditioned or dependent upon the actions of either my church leaders or the membership.  They have nothing to do with my faith.  For me, it has everything to do with the confirming witness of the Holy Ghost.  Had I not had that, and other revelations, then there would be no grounding for my faith, but because I have, my faith and testimony of the LDS church stands independent of my good and bad relationships with others.

I know of other transgendered members (I know several now) who are not having negative experiences with the church, those for whom the leadership took the General Handbook of Instruction was taken as a guide book - as it is intended.  These leaders looked at the person, their heart, their feelings, their individual testimonies, listened to the Spirit and chose not to pursue excommunication, and in fact these trans-persons remain members today.

You seem to be angry with the church, and that is alright, you believe they have trampled on you.  I wish you the best of luck in your new faith - Wicca.  I know there are plenty joyfully waiting and ready to receive you.  However, if you at one time had a testimony of the LDS faith, consider its basis, and then ask yourself if perhaps you still have it somewhere.  If so, pray to determine what it is that you should do - pray for the guidance of the Holy Spirit, seek to repent of your sins (and for clarification I am not including transsexualism - it is not a sin), and see if God will not direct you.  Perhaps you might rediscover the same faith, that same peace, that once led to you to the waters of baptism.

[Janet_Girl]

Witch of Hope,
It takes 15 posts for most of the function to active, including PMs.  Just post as you would and it will happen fast.

Blessed Be,
Janet

[Genevieve Swann]

I presently reside in Ogden Utah and was raised in a small Mormon community not far from here in Wyo. Spent 24.5 years in Central America and have traveled the Americas. I've  seen different cultures and by far the worst are Mormons. I was baptize as a child against my will. They can have all the rules they want. I don't play the game so I don't follow the rules. It's merely a cult that has grown to a reccognized religion. The missionaries damn well had better not knock on my door. The persecuted me for too many years.

[Witch of Hope]

I presently reside in Ogden Utah and was raised in a small Mormon community not far from here in Wyo. Spent 24.5 years in Central America and have traveled the Americas. I've  seen different cultures and by far the worst are Mormons. I was baptize as a child against my will. They can have all the rules they want. I don't play the game so I don't follow the rules. It's merely a cult that has grown to a reccognized religion. The missionaries damn well had better not knock on my door. The persecuted me for too many years.

Your parents and the missionaries were culprits as well as victims, but they didn't know it better. The prophet of the Mormons, the apostles, yes, the whole leadership of the LDS, knows it better. They can find out, but they doesn't do it, because their rules are more important to them than the people! Here an example from my active time as a Mormon (it deals nothing with TS):

A Mormon, marries and father of two children,  discovered his love to another man in Cologne where he lived like me. He had sex with the man. He got communal denial what means, he mightn't do certain things in the church (address hold, pray). He loved the LDS, but also this man. in it he broke, and committed suicide. What said, however, the bishop and his woman? He would have died by an "accident". Nobody should get to know what had really happened.

Thus the "true and only church" acts as ehey see themselfs!
Besides, the LDS has had a homosexual  and a tg history in the 19th century. A grandson of Brigham Young was a transvestite, lesbians were tolerated like gays, and everything ended when the GLF (Gay liberation front) arose. Then everything was hated, which wasn't heterosexually and unambiguously genderlike. It was the time of McCarthy. A chance?

[Suzy]

All this makes transsexual people to second-class members in the LDS "church", and offends in my opinion against laws (however, there you know more). I find, such a thing isn't to be accepted! This "church" tramples around on our civil rights, as if they had in addition the RIGHT to do that. It becomes time to show once the Mormon that they mayn't permit everything to themselves.

I know you are not from America, so this may sound like a strange thing to hear.  The truth is that the Mormons have a right to believe and practice whatever they wishes.  They are not committing any crimes (unless you count polygamy among some of the smaller sects).  Membership is completely voluntary.  If this group you are associated with is that crude, find someone else to worship with.  I find a lot of variation even among LDS people.

Kristi

[Witch of Hope]

Kristi, it isn't a matter of a voluntary membership, it is a matter of civil rights! Noone, no Church, Sect or destructive cult (as i seethe LDS church) hast the right, to denied people their basic rights.
You are an American, right? What would be if someone want to say to you (maybe from the government) that you can't be in your city anymore (e.g.all blondes most leave the city, or other stupid reasons).But it is your RIGHT, to live wereever you want. Is a church/sect/cullt different than a human being or a government?

[Just Kate]

Kristi, it isn't a matter of a voluntary membership, it is a matter of civil rights! Noone, no Church, Sect or destructive cult (as i seethe LDS church) hast the right, to denied people their basic rights.
You are an American, right? What would be if someone want to say to you (maybe from the government) that you can't be in your city anymore (e.g.all blondes most leave the city, or other stupid reasons).But it is your RIGHT, to live wereever you want. Is a church/sect/cullt different than a human being or a government?

Help me understand, please, how a church, a single entity, specifically the LDS church, is taking away people's basic civil rights in any way except by their ability to nationally vote.

[Witch of Hope]

Help me understand, please, how a church, a single entity, specifically the LDS church, is taking away people's basic civil rights in any way except by their ability to nationally vote.

Actually, I am too tired to answer, because now in Germany it is 03:55 a.m.. But, nevertheless, I will try it.
If we accept once, you wouldn't have been with the Mormons, and would have brought the sex-change surgery already behind yourself. You get to know the church, say that you were transsexual (because you are too silly or are too honest), and experience how you must wait long for your baptism. Others, are baptized before you, although they came later. But they haven't been transsexual. Then, nevertheless, you have made it, and werebaptized.While other women may marry their husbands in the temple, this is kept you. In other respects you aren't allowed in the temple (for the temple work). You not even get your Endowment!
So if this is no violation of civil rights (equal treatment), I also don't know!
You got the right to marry whom ever you want. You are a (straight) woman in this case/example.

[aisha]

the lsd church.. I smoke so much pot there, they don't really mind me being there, I just don't go in, the forest is peaceful enough, maybe one day I'll go in there, but outside I see all kinds of beautiful stuff, and its nice, and inside, I feel like I'm being judged, but <not allowed> god, ultimately all things are one right, anyone can say anything in any religion, a group of christians can say you are not christian if you ride bikes with tassles, but another christian can say she is as long as your hair is red, what do either of them know? Do they exist in the first place, or is it just like... a bad idea? Beliefs are wierd, but just follow your heart, and not what other people tell you.

No ones being trampled on, its just they can believe and say and do what they want with their lives, just like everyone does.

[Chaos_Dagger]

I got told by my branch that I would be excommunicated should I even attempt to start on the road to transition.  I told them to shove their church, I only joined it to make my wife happy... and out of curiosity!  I remember when the "Elder" was preforming my interview before baptism, I never really answered his questions straight.  "Do you believe Jesus was the son of god?" He asked.

  "The church and the bible describes us ALL as the children of god, if this is to be accepted as true, then would it not mean that Jesus is the son of god without a doubt?" was my answer.

I admit I miss my sister missionaries, especially Gunko!  However sadly when she went back home her boyfriend broke up with her, and now the church is pressuring her into marrying another man, not but 2 weeks after!  The sad part is she's allowing it!  Not something I can accept... as such I haven't talked to her since I found out.  I'm so opinionated sometimes, so maybe it's best not to talk to me in times like this.

[Suzy]

Well of course I don't agree with what the Mormons are doing, but I still fail to see how this denies you any certain rights, unless you were forced to attend there.  You can still marry whomever you want, just in either a civil ceremony or in another church that is tolerant.

Perhaps it is a cultural difference, but please help me understand.

Kristi

[Just Kate]

Far too often the "culture" of the church members (especially the culture in Utah) is mixed up with being church "doctrine".  I have seen far too many people hurt because they cannot make this distinction.  In such an environment where a majority of people are the same faith, nutty stuff can happen, cultural beliefs can take on a life of their own, and what would normally be a simple social stigma can seem like hard and fast religious doctrine.

I spend a lot of time asking members, "why do you believe that?"  "what is your basis for that belief?"  Sometimes they find they don't know where they came up with it, it is just so common they thought it was true.  This type of thinking is not limited to the LDS church of course, but is common among professors of faith.  I do my best to show people the difference between what is doctrine and what is culture.

This is the battle I fight daily with people in and outside of the church.  The church might be made up of the sum of its parts (the good and the bad) but the doctrine stands apart from its culture.  If someone is offended because of some of the negative cultural behaviors of church members, then it is understandable, but not worth losing one's faith over - not if it is founded in the doctrine.

[Witch of Hope]

Well of course I don't agree with what the Mormons are doing, but I still fail to see how this denies you any certain rights, unless you were forced to attend there.  You can still marry whomever you want, just in either a civil ceremony or in another church that is tolerant.

Perhaps it is a cultural difference, but please help me understand.

Kristi

This isn't right!
In Germany a man can marry, e.g., on the registry office another man. If A Mormon makes this, he or she is excommunicated immediately. With the Mormons only heterosexual marriages are permitted, and till few decades was also forbidden the marriages of mixed race in the LDS "Church". In the 19th century such people were even killed by the Mormons in their own church. The "law" of the blood atonement" required it.
And a transsexual person who had revealed himself can't marry as a woman a man.. And for Mormons this is very important, because only the temple marriage is valid with the Mormons for all eternity.
To transsexual members to refuse this, is an violation of their civil rights.

[Just Kate]

This isn't right!
In Germany a man can marry, e.g., on the registry office another man. If A Mormon makes this, he or she is excommunicated immediately. With the Mormons only heterosexual marriages are permitted, and till few decades was also forbidden the marriages of mixed race in the LDS "Church". In the 19th century such people were even killed by the Mormons in their own church. The "law" of the blood atonement" required it.
And a transsexual person who had revealed himself can't marry as a woman a man.. And for Mormons this is very important, because only the temple marriage is valid with the Mormons for all eternity.
To transsexual members to refuse this, is an violation of their civil rights.

Would you then have the government forcibly make the LDS church perform same sex marriages in their temples?

[Suzy]

This isn't right! ..........
To transsexual members to refuse this, is an violation of their civil rights.

What civil rights do we have that say we should be able to tell any religion what to believe and what to practice?

Trust me, I am not advocating for their practice.  If you are one of the members, it is a violation of who you are, but not your civil rights.  If you want to have a temple marriage, you know the rules.  Here in the United States it took threatening the LDS church with revocation of their tax-exempt status before they had a "revelation" and decided black people were not barred from full participation and marriage.  I don't think you have any such leverage there.  You have two options.  You can stay and try and change them from within.  Or you can leave and find some other group whose beliefs are not so obviously opposed to yours.  If you do leave, as you pointed out, you can marry whomever you wish in a civil ceremony.

Kristi

[Kayla]

Kristi, it isn't a matter of a voluntary membership, it is a matter of civil rights! Noone, no Church, Sect or destructive cult (as i seethe LDS church) hast the right, to denied people their basic rights.
You are an American, right? What would be if someone want to say to you (maybe from the government) that you can't be in your city anymore (e.g.all blondes most leave the city, or other stupid reasons).But it is your RIGHT, to live wereever you want. Is a church/sect/cullt different than a human being or a government?

I don't see how this is a violation of civil rights. Of course the LDS is denying basic liberties to the person in question, but that person doesn't need to be there in the first place.