Wealthy non-ops

[Lori]

Doesn't that stuff come from a book that gets more revisions than the bible did?  Are they not working to revise it even as we write?  Has it not been proven that just about everything in it has both a political as well as an economic aspect to it?

Thought so.

Thank you. Like I said earlier, this is stupid because it should not even be in that book. We are NOT crazy. Anything they try to label or define it under is going to be wrong. Even the French figured that out.

[tekla]

What is it with Americans and the French?  France is a wonderful place I always thought.  The food is divine, the wine is first rate, the art among the best in the world, Paris IS the City of Light, and the Riviera is pretty cool.  The train system ought to make Americans weep, the TGV runs at well over 250 MPH, is clean, bright and they serve French food and French wine. 

Oh yeah, and it seems like every block in Paris has a bakery and a lingerie shop - how much more civilized can you get.  I think they even invented the word lingerie - somehow so much sexier than underpants.

And the reason they keep it in the DSM here is largely economic.  If Nichole is right that transition is a middle class deal, just let it be dropped from the DSM and it will be exclusively that.  No more money for therapy, for SRS, for HRT.  Nada.  All out of pocket.

[Miniar]

labels is why we all know what person X means when person X says the word "table".
They aren't, and should never be the be all end all, but we'd be silly to think we can just do away with all labels and somehow be better for it. Language is the way it is for a reason.

And I enjoy many French foods, wines, and other things.
It's just as rude, belligerent, and/or bigoted to pick on "the French" as it is to pick on any other group.

[tekla]

I'm not sure about the not picking on any groups, North Korea is not exactly awesome these days - but some Americans seem to have a special hard on about the French for reasons I don't quite get.

[Miniar]

I'm not sure about the not picking on any groups, North Korea is not exactly awesome these days - but some Americans seem to have a special hard on about the French for reasons I don't quite get.

Well, there's a difference between stating facts about the situation in north Korea, and stating that "all" north Koreans are X (X here a place holder for any insult you can think of).
I don't know what their beef with the French is, but when it's gone so far that stating that "he speaks French" is used as an insinuated insult, then we're talking bigotry.

[NicholeW.]

...  If Nichole is right that transition is a middle class deal, just let it be dropped from the DSM and it will be exclusively that.  No more money for therapy, for SRS, for HRT.  Nada.  All out of pocket.

You are quite right, tekla, about the results of just "dropping" GID from the DSM.

You missed, a bit, what I say about "middle to upper class deals."

The vast majority of TS people on internets ARE middle to upper class white europen-heritaged and educated to some extent folks.

TS itself, like so much else doesn't come by way of class or race or ethnicity. That is a universal occurrence as best we can tell.

The "middle-class" prejudice I talk about is the one that invariably sees "mental illness" or mental difficulty as something "I cannot possibly have because I am white, european heritaged, somewhat educated, have a dollop or more of socio-economic privilege.

Just like the "TSes all have transition-or-die" mentality or the "I have completed srs and so have gone beyond GID even though I continue to show symptomatology of GID" tropes are just poses meant to show a "superiority" and a state of being that actually show the reverse of thye thing they are aimed to show.

There is much possibility and good that can come from a unitary "diagnosis" of GID without all the binary bs that currently exists and as much good that would ensue from moving the diagnosis out of the "paraphilias and sexual disorders" section of DSM.

One needs to have enough sense to see that she's tossing both baby and bathwater out at the same time. Many do not. Many others, imo, simply don't care as they now "have mine so screw you" attitudes.

N~

removed a joke that was apparently inflammatory -- N~

[Natasha]

I don't dwell in fantasy land, I'm not a goddess, a witch, a fairy princess, I'm simply a woman, and a very successful one at that.

hahaha you forgot "mermaid", "unicorn", "sorceress", "pegasus", "chimeras"

[pheonix]

Agreed.

F64.0   Transsexualism 
  A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex, usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex, and a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex. 

F64.1   Dual-role transvestism 
  The wearing of clothes of the opposite sex for part of the individual's existence in order to enjoy the temporary experience of membership of the opposite sex, but without any desire for a more permanent sex change or associated surgical reassignment, and without sexual excitement accompanying the cross-dressing. 
  Gender identity disorder of adolescence or adulthood, nontranssexual type

  Excludes:  fetishistic transvestism ( F65.1 )

http://apps.who.int/classifications/apps/icd/icd10online/

I'm going to differ with you here.  Because if you claim non-ops are Dual-Role transvestism, then what the hell am I? :p

Breaking these down individually:

F64.0   Transsexualism 

A desire to live and be accepted as a member of the opposite sex,
YES!

usually accompanied by a sense of discomfort with, or inappropriateness of, one's anatomic sex,
YES!

usually accompanied by a wish to have surgery and hormonal treatment to make one's body as congruent as possible with one's preferred sex.

Partially true.  Hormones, yes.  No to the surgery.

F64.1   Dual-role transvestism

The wearing of clothes of the opposite sex for part of the individual's existence in order to enjoy the temporary experience of membership of the opposite sex,

That would be a No since this isn't a temporary or back and forth thing with me.  I am a woman and live in female roles.

but without any desire for a more permanent sex change or associated surgical reassignment,

Again, while I have no interest in GRS, my body is irrevocably altered. I couldn't go back to what I was even if I wanted to.

and without sexual excitement accompanying the cross-dressing. 

This is true - no sexual arousal here. 

The key difference is how you interact with society.  Someone with Dual Role Transvestism moves between the gender roles and appearance.

Again, most everyone here posting is NOT a medical professional and is not qualified to give a medical diagnosis.  I can tell you everyone qualified who has ever evaluated me has classified me with transsexualism despite my choice not to pursue GRS.

Post Merge: May 25, 2009, 12:20:20 PM

hahaha you forgot "mermaid", "unicorn", "pegasus", "chimeras"

You do realize that chimeras do exist -- it's a person who carries more than one set of genes... 

http://www.damninteresting.com/?p=412

[Natasha]

many people on here brag about loving themselves  "warts & all".  really? do they really love themselves "warts" & all?  i'm not convinced they do.  if that were true, they wouldn't be ashamed of who they are.."warts" & all.  think about that!

[cindybc]

Hi Pheonix
I am not meaning to be condescending but I do wish to ask an honest question.

I do not understand how you can identify as a woman and still have the wrong parts down there. If you have gone as far as you have, to the point of no return, why would you not want to complete the journey as congruently as medical science can make you. There are many like you here and I just wish to understand is all.

If I am to be supportive of others on this board I only seek to understand the reasoning behind this.

Cindy 

[Natasha]

Perhaps we can get another disorder added! The short-sighted, or uncaring self-loathing post-op transsexual disorder.

how about the self-loathing-in-denial-suffering-from-low self-esteem non-op transgender disorder?

[cindybc]

Natasha

many people on here brag about loving themselves  "warts & all".  really? do they really love themselves "warts" & all?  i'm not convinced they do.  if that were true, they wouldn't be ashamed of who they are.."warts" & all.  think about that!

I just wish I was a 10 year old girl starting life over again. "BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!"

Cindy

[Chrissty]

I just wish I was a 10 year old girl starting life over again. "BWAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaa!!!!!!"

Cindy

...sorry Cindy ..the que is over here..

[Steph]

You are quite r...

...
N~

Perhaps we can get another disorder added! The short-sighted, or uncaring self-loathing post-op transsexual disorder.

Or perhaps we already have some DOs that cover that syndrome in place, just waiting to be used.

Ya know I was really enjoying what you wrote until you had to go and take a poke at those you obviously loath because of who and what they are.  It would seem from all this that you hide behind your intellect because you're pissed at what they have achieved and you haven't or can't. Typical!  BUT I could be wrong after all (As it was so eloquently pointed out to me,) I don't have much of a edjumacation.

Actually N~ now you have me thinking, "a short sighted, uncaring self loathing post-op transsexual disorder", that could be me, all this time I've been wondering and you diagnosed my problem just like th...  Oh! wait a sec...  Nope it can't be me I just took out my tape measure and I'm close to 5'7" so I can't be short sighted.

-={LR}=-

[NicholeW.]

Ya know I was really enjoying what you wrote until you had to go and take a poke at those you obviously loath because of who and what they are.  It would seem from all this that you hide behind your intellect because you're pissed at what they have achieved and you haven't or can't. Typical!  BUT I could be wrong after all (As it was so eloquently pointed out to me,) I don't have much of a edjumacation.

Actually N~ now you have me thinking, "a short sighted, uncaring self loathing post-op transsexual disorder", that could be me, all this time I've been wondering and you diagnosed my problem just like th...  Oh! wait a sec...  Nope it can't be me I just took out my tape measure and I'm close to 5'7" so I can't be short sighted.

-={LR}=-

Hmm, and I'm 5'6" and so, shorter-sighted than you.

It wasn't a "poke," but a joke.

You read the rest of rthat post & the ones in the Telltale Heart thread. To see such a possible state in some people isn't to see that in all.

One of the things I consistently notice in the more virulent posters who are post-op on a non-op thread. LR, is that there appears to be the assumption that any post-op who doesn't loathe non-ops must be a non-op. Education or not, you certainly logically know better than that.

The non-ops have a small space to themselves, or at least allegedly so. It seems only fitting that they should be the ones chatting in their threads and the rest of us take our disagreements with what they feel and how they live their lives elsewhere.

I don't recall any non-ops here ever making a sortie into a "soon to have srs thread" and telling the prospective candidate that she/he was a fraud and not really TS or anything like that.

If you've a problem with me, then perhaps you should be aware that my PM function works fine.

Thanks.

N~

[Steph]

Hmm, and I'm 5'6" and so, shorter-sighted than you.

It wasn't a "poke," but a joke.

You read the rest of rthat post & the ones in the Telltale Heart thread. To see such a possible state in some people isn't to see that in all.

One of the things I consistently notice in the more virulent posters who are post-op on a non-op thread. LR, is that there appears to be the assumption that any post-op who doesn't loathe non-ops must be a non-op. Education or not, you certainly logically know better than that.

The non-ops have a small space to themselves, or at least allegedly so. It seems only fitting that they should be the ones chatting in their threads and the rest of us take our disagreements with what they feel and how they live their lives elsewhere.

I don't recall any non-ops here ever making a sortie into a "soon to have srs thread" and telling the prospective candidate that she/he was a fraud and not really TS or anything like that.

If you've a problem with me, then perhaps you should be aware that my PM function works fine.

Thanks.

N~

Then I owe the Non-Op Forum and it's members an apology.  I was not aware that I shouldn't post in this forum.  These things should be posted in the rules maybe.

No need to use the PM thingy.  If I have anything to to say I say it in public. 

5'6" - you really are short aren't you.

-={LR}=-

[fae_reborn]

It really would be nice if the non-op section could be a place where those who have made this choice could be supported by others instead of being told that their identities don't exist, or being redefined as dual transvestic whatevers... I don't see non-ops barging into conversations in the post op forum telling peeps that they don't exist.

Z

AGREED! (I am kind of frustrated with this whole argument being directed at non-ops  )

Those who are non-op are not somehow dual-role transvestites, that just doesn't make any sense.  Granted, since I had an Orchi I'm not technically non-op, but if you are only taking GRS into account, then yes, I am non-op in that I don't want to have GRS.  I'm happy with what I have after getting the orchiectomy, I've made peace with the "equipment" that I have.  Doesn't make me any less of a woman for having done that. 

All my records say female now, I live and I'm accepted as a female in everyday life by EVERYONE.  So please don't say that those who are non-op are really dual-role transvestites, that's insulting and degrading to the struggles we have gone through.

Like Zythyra said, we don't question the decisions of those who choose to get GRS, so why are you debating the decisions of non-ops and trying to dissect the definitions from the DSM, which in my opinion is a messed up document anyway, so why bother trying to make sense of it (just throw it into a bonfire already).

I do not understand how you can identify as a woman and still have the wrong parts down there. If you have gone as far as you have, to the point of no return, why would you not want to complete the journey as congruently as medical science can make you. There are many like you here and I just wish to understand is all.

If I am to be supportive of others on this board I only seek to understand the reasoning behind this.

Cindy 

To some of us, they are not necessarily the "wrong" parts; there is no right or wrong.  Some of us have just chosen to make peace with what we have.  You ask why would we not "complete the journey," well...some of us see this as the end of our journey, and GRS is not necessary for our personal happiness.

Understanding something is not a prerequisite to respect and decency, and in turn a little support.  This is all we ask for, as we give the same to you in regard to your decisions for GRS.  We may not understand the reasons why you choose to pursue GRS, but we do not question your decision to live your life as you do, so why do you question our lives and our decisions?

Just asking for a little more respect, thanks.

Jenn

[NicholeW.]

Then I owe the Non-Op Forum and it's members an apology.  I was not aware that I shouldn't post in this forum.  These things should be posted in the rules maybe.

No need to use the PM thingy.  If I have anything to to say I say it in public. 

5'6" - you really are short aren't you.

-={LR}=-

It's public but not in "The Rules."  Perhaps you'd be inclined to make the suggestion on the Suggestions thread Susan has for that purpose.

It's not that you cannot be here. It's that those who choose to come here should be respectful of the choice made by non-ops. Susan published this post as the first thread on the first topic in this space. https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,58171.msg367524.html#msg367524

Actually, we can all prolly do with questioning and the input of other povs. But, that input should be at least respectful of the people in the group being questioned or advised by others.

And yes, I am short. But cindybc is way shorter than I am!! About 3" as I recall. Ask her.

N~

[tekla]

I don't have much of a edjumacation

I never said that.  I said you were lying or intellectually lazy.  I know plenty of people with lots of degrees who are one or the other, or both.

[xsocialworker]

I chose to get GRS because of the locker room test, the wanding at airport security, the DMV, medical exams, Social Security and a host of other struggles against the Gender Police that gets just too tiring for words. Sometimes you do things just to stop fighting. I stayed in college to stay out of Viet Nam. I was living F/T 24/7 and all that good stuff for 5 years when I decided I was just sick of having my identity disappear when I got undressed. But again, I am a hard-core left-wing radical/liberaterian who sees very little without a political slant. Even GID. However---GID is a self-diagnosis and as far as I am concerned you can be whatever you want to be however you want to be it. Our world has too many rules already. I guess if you get undressed and see genitalia not congruent with your self identity it can be a bummer, but then maybe not. I'm just going back to Luckenbach Texas with Willie , Waylon, and the boys and jest be one of the gurls. Yeehaw!