How do I know that some female bodied people don't have dysphoria over it?

[Nero]

Let's face it - a female body is an imposition, engineered to be cumbersome and messy. No control over the things it does like bleed, or duplicate without permission. If one happens to enjoy sex with the male of the species, it's wrought with terror and worry that that will invite an alien being to take up residence in one's gut. What if it's just a matter of course for a pubertal girl to retch at the sight of their body everytime they take a shower?
Let's see:
Useless, muscleless bags of fat hanging off the chest
Involuntary and unprovoked bleeding
Having too much sex = risking an alien invasion

Certainly doesn't sound like a nice comfy place in which to reside. And when I read things like 90% of women are unhappy in their bodies... makes me wonder, do I have dysphoria because I'm male or does the female body itself invite dysphoria?

Now that the bulk of my dysphoria's gone, I have the luxury of examining said dysphoria. 

[Osiris]

I think women have a lot of issues with their bodies but I don't think it necessarily brings about dysphoria. More often than not I've known women who while they would like to adjust something with their bodies, don't exactly feel disgust or distraught over what they have.

[Lisbeth]

I think that a lot of that body unhappiness, or maybe most of it, comes not from our bodies themselves but from how society tells us our bodies should be different than they are.

[Teknoir]

I asked that to a cisfemale once (ok ok... I don't know many women  ).

Apparently their body doesn't gross them out. They like their female looking attributes. This one said that they loved their female body - they just wish they were thinner.

I think that of the 90% of cisfemales unhappy in their bodies - you'll find it's usually due to too fat, too thin, too small breasts, too old, etc and not a gender related issue.

This person also hastened to add that they had never questioned their gender, and there is "no way in hell" they would ever want one of "those things" between their legs, or facial hair, or lose their curves and breasts.

Cisfemale then proceeded to rattle off reason after reason they loved being female.

The way cispeople feel about their gender reminds me a little of the classist indoctination in Brave New World

[Ender]

Nero, this is what I thought since puberty.  I was very cognizant of loathing--hating--what was happening to me and just wished it would stop, reverse, go away (actually I was dumbfounded at first--used to think I would go through a boys' puberty).  But then I learned that, apparently, "all females have body issues."  Horrible sweeping statement there, but... that's what I believed.  So I thought that me wanting to hurl at the sight of my body feminizing was just... normal.  Wanting my useless chest sacs cut off?  Normal.  Preparing to perform a self-hysterectomy?  Normal.

Thing is, none of the females I knew seemed to have quite this much loathing for their bodies.  But I figured they were just hiding it as I hid it; figured that was just the way things were done.  Figured I'd eventually learn to live with my body such as it was; kept setting dates for that to happen, milestone ages--13? 16? 18? 21?  25 was next, but I wasn't waiting any longer to suddenly feel like a woman. 

Since coming out, I've spoken with my mother about my feelings growing up.  She just kinda sat there, shocked.  In her opinion, my desires to have my chest and uterus/ovaries removed as soon as things started developing was highly unusual.  I asked her what she felt like at puberty, and I get the impression that, while it wasn't all roses, she didn't mind it all that much.  What was happening was fine with her.  And she liked her boobs.  I get the impression that, even though many females may have things they'd like to change about their bodies, this isn't quite the same as dysphoria.  I've yet to run across any females (who don't later end up being FtM) who hate their breasts enough to cut them off completely.  Hysterectomy?  They'd like to not bleed, but most I've talked to would like to at least have the option of having biological kids and seem to regard surgery as kind of extreme (birth control being the easier, reversible option to stop bleeding/prevent unwanted pregnancies).

There are times that I've genuinely felt that having a female body really is getting the raw end of the deal--useless fat sacs in the way, pain and bleeding every month, statistically smaller stature, often weaker, body programmed to carry more fat to sustain possible pregnancy, odd pelvis shape not as conducive to running (for me at least--when my pelvis widened, my walk turned into a rolling, hip-driven gait... running is worse).  The list goes on.  All in all, the female body seems like a huge compromise all for the sake of giving birth.  Which is a pointless compromise for me--since me giving birth only belongs in my worst nightmares--so I loathe it.  But then I wander over to the MtF forums, and I start to get the feeling that there are individuals who would value having at least some of these qualities (breasts, wide hips, small stature, ability to give birth...).

[tekla]

Don't extend your misery to others, they may not feel that way.  I know lot of guys who think they got a raw deal - and not out of any sort of GID, but out of something closer to NGE, not good enough.  It does not mean they should have been female, it only means they did not live up to whatever stereotype they assumed was the norm.

Just 'cause you suck at being a girl, does not mean you should have been a boy, or vice-versa.

[Nero]

Just 'cause you suck at being a girl, does not mean you should have been a boy, or vice-versa. 

That's not what I'm saying. There's more to being male than just the body difference. But I do wonder whether distress at being stuck with the female body is all trans related or just normal.

[finewine]

Hehe, my "dysphoria" is that I'm a mesomorph born in a body somewhere between ectomorph &  endomorph (half way between the bottom of the triangle in the figure below):

[Lisbeth]

But I do wonder whether distress at being stuck with the female body is all trans related or just normal.

Define "normal." I don't think there's anything normal about being dissatisfied with your body. But women have long been taught (and men are starting to be taught) to be dissatisfied with their bodies. I'm not satisfied with my female body, but that dissatisfaction is different from gender dysphoria. I'm just as unhappy about my weight, breast size, height, skin tone, and hair color as any cis-woman. But that's nothing like being dissatisfied that I wasn't born female.

[DarkLady]

I am unhappy because of my body is still so masculine. The face is the  worst.

[miniangel]

Excellent question, Nero, and excellent answer, Eryk.

So I'm a cisfemale and now I'm past all that messy stuff I begin to see what's so good about leaving the reproductive bits behind. No more being at the whim of surging hormones - I can be what seems to be my real self, whatever that is. Turns out I'm not the hysterical bad-tempered shrew I thought I was 

Yes, we are often dissatisfied with our bodies, not just appearancewise but in the whole messy saga of the reproduction cycle. I envy the freedom of males to take their shirts off and run around without being hit in the eye by a flying appendage. I used to anguish about the whole pregnancy thing until I finally got sterilised; except for those occasions when I actually wanted to conceive, sex was always a potential minefield, regardless of contraception used. I didn't want kids but my damn body turned out to be really really good at conceiving, carrying and pushing out babies; I was a natural and I actually really enjoyed the process in the end. I loathed the pain and discomfort and embarrassment of menstruation - turning up at work and discovering you've just bled over the back of your skirt, how good is that!

So I cursed many aspects of my body and would have willingly swapped for a male version once in a while. BUT I never felt it was the wrong body, that Mother Nature had slipped the wrong contents into the package. Try as I might (and I do try) I can't imagine what it's like to feel that way. I don't even feel that I am female and my body matches, I just feel like me and I happen to be female. This is my body with all its joys and drawbacks and I'm stuck with it. But I've never seriously wanted it to be a male body.

So that's my answer. I hope it helps.

[Alyssa M.]

How do you know? Well, there are plenty of us who would much rather have a much more feminine body.

I know plenty of women that love the feminity of their bodies, almost all of the women I know, in fact. I even know a few women who love their bodies outright -- I live in a state with lots of Beautiful People.

Granted, I don't know a single woman who don't hate dealing with problems of hygiene. You got me there. But it's just part of life. I don't think most men are thrilled that they have to bother with their own (rather less annoying) problems of hygiene either.

[Nero]

Hi Minnie.
Yeah, that does help. It seems like there may be a difference between the gross and inconvenient parts most everybody hates (menstrual and pregnancy risk) and the trans part of the dysphoria. Hard to for me to separate though.
Thanks for your answer.

Excellent question, Nero, and excellent answer, Eryk.

So I'm a cisfemale and now I'm past all that messy stuff I begin to see what's so good about leaving the reproductive bits behind. No more being at the whim of surging hormones - I can be what seems to be my real self, whatever that is. Turns out I'm not the hysterical bad-tempered shrew I thought I was 

Yes, we are often dissatisfied with our bodies, not just appearancewise but in the whole messy saga of the reproduction cycle. I envy the freedom of males to take their shirts off and run around without being hit in the eye by a flying appendage. I used to anguish about the whole pregnancy thing until I finally got sterilised; except for those occasions when I actually wanted to conceive, sex was always a potential minefield, regardless of contraception used. I didn't want kids but my damn body turned out to be really really good at conceiving, carrying and pushing out babies; I was a natural and I actually really enjoyed the process in the end. I loathed the pain and discomfort and embarrassment of menstruation - turning up at work and discovering you've just bled over the back of your skirt, how good is that!

So I cursed many aspects of my body and would have willingly swapped for a male version once in a while. BUT I never felt it was the wrong body, that Mother Nature had slipped the wrong contents into the package. Try as I might (and I do try) I can't imagine what it's like to feel that way. I don't even feel that I am female and my body matches, I just feel like me and I happen to be female. This is my body with all its joys and drawbacks and I'm stuck with it. But I've never seriously wanted it to be a male body.

So that's my answer. I hope it helps.

Post Merge: July 09, 2009, 10:30:26 PM
Note: changed title to 'some' female bodied people so as not to offend anyone with large generalizations.
Post Merge: July 10, 2009, 12:36:23 AM

Define "normal." I don't think there's anything normal about being dissatisfied with your body. But women have long been taught (and men are starting to be taught) to be dissatisfied with their bodies. I'm not satisfied with my female body, but that dissatisfaction is different from gender dysphoria. I'm just as unhappy about my weight, breast size, height, skin tone, and hair color as any cis-woman. But that's nothing like being dissatisfied that I wasn't born female.

So the 90% is more about wishing something were shapelier or less, not that it would disappear. 

[colormyworld]

You bring up an interesting point!  It's hard to define the line between dysphoria, and girls that are just way over dramatic, but I'm sure there are quite a few females that do have dysphoria over their bodies, I could be wrong though.

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I for one *hate* the growths on my chest, they're heavy, they get in the way, they hurt, and I'm not comfortable at all unless they are strapped in as tight as I can get them and they can barely move. It's bad enough I have to SEE them, I don't want to FEEL them moving about all the time, too! Those things are lucky they get let out to bathe! (haha, I secretly always wished if I didn't give them room to grow, they wouldn't be able to. That didn't work like I had hoped)
The wretched monthly curse, I'm guessing most everyone hates it. It's nasty and messy, it consumes your life when it shows up, feels like something is attacking your abdomen, etc. I don't see how anyone could actually enjoy it, tolerate or accept, maybe some people can, but enjoy, you'd have to be insane! (How many years 'til menopause??)
Alien invasion? That doesn't bother me, I actually look forward to being pregnant and carrying a baby (ask me again if I ever get pregnant, the answer just might change!) To me at least, it gives me a reason to endure the above, that is after all what the female body was created for, so I feel like I'm doing what I was built to do and one day I do want to have babies. Plus, I know in my head that my plan is, once I'm done birthin' babies, I'm going to get a breast reduction not too far after that! "CHOP THEM OFF!" I'd do it sooner, but I've heard SO many people say it's better to wait until after you're done having children, so I'll try to be patient! So, the sooner the alien invasion takes place, the sooner the growths are tamed! haha

Well, there's one girl's perspective!! haha
Post Merge: July 09, 2009, 11:27:20 PM

So I cursed many aspects of my body and would have willingly swapped for a male version once in a while. BUT I never felt it was the wrong body, that Mother Nature had slipped the wrong contents into the package. Try as I might (and I do try) I can't imagine what it's like to feel that way. I don't even feel that I am female and my body matches, I just feel like me and I happen to be female. This is my body with all its joys and drawbacks and I'm stuck with it. But I've never seriously wanted it to be a male body.

Ditto! I'm not the biggest fan of my of my body, but I never thought I was supposed to be male. I am me, this is who I am!

I don't like parts of my body, but I don't necessarily think I should have had a male body. If I was born with a male body, would I complain or feel I was in the wrong body? Hard to answer since I don't have the experience, but I don't think I would. I think I would just deal with it the same way I deal with being in a female body. It's what's inside that counts, and on the inside, I am me!

[TamTam]

Eerrr    I suppose I'll add my [apparently quite lengthy, sorry!] cisgendered female opinion..

I'm perfectly happy in my body.  Most of the self-image problems that women have involve wanting their feminine shape to be prettier or closer to the feminine ideal, whatever that ideal is in their heads.  They don't wish they were men, they wish they were more perfect of a woman.  The worst I ever felt about my body was before puberty, when I was flat and skinny all over.  I felt ugly.  Now that I have curves, my body image is the best it's ever been.

I don't think of my body as cumbersome, at all.  I like my breasts.  I don't think of them as useless fat bags.  In fact, if anyone called them that to my face I would be a little put off.  I think of them as fun and squishy and I do everything I can to make them look bigger.  Any shirt that gives me cleavage is a good shirt and must be bought.  My only problem with them, if any, is that they're too small. I like my hips, I like my delicate bone structure, etc etc.  You might think these things are annoying or alien, but that's because you're a man.   When I reached puberty and I could see everything changing in the mirror, I was ecstatic.  And honestly, even though I don't plan on having kids, I think the fact that I could if I wanted to is beautiful and miraculous all by itself.  If I were straight and had sex with guys, I'd use a condom. Women can have straight sex as often as they want to, if they're safe about it.  And many do.

Sure periods are annoying, but.. when I got mine for the first time, I was so excited.  I was so impatient for it, for like a year beforehand I kept asking my mom why I hadn't gotten it yet, so when it finally happened I ran around the house with the biggest smile on my face and made a fool of myself calling my grandma to brag about it.  Now, six years later, they get annoying, but annoying is not the same as dysphoria.  I don't feel 'wrong' when I get them- in fact, when I skipped a month recently, that felt wrong.

Now let's look at it from the other side.  I, being perfectly happy as a woman, don't find the prospect of having a man's body very appealing.  Now, I could very easily write about all of the worst things I can possible think of about a man's body, and paint it in the worst light- it's smelly, hairy, has rough skin, has no softness, has annoying dangly bits that do even more annoying and disgusting things, and it can go bald.  Now I ask you, why doesn't every man on earth throw up when he sees himself in the mirror and wish he was a woman?   Because not everyone is dysphoric.  It's easy to think that the gender one doesn't identify as must have a hard time or must not like it.. but that's because we don't identify.  If we did, of course we'd understand.  Y'know?

[sneakersjay]

TamTam makes some good points.  I work with pretty much all women, and while they bitch and moan about how fat they are and how cramps suck, the thought of having a hysterectomy to 'fix' the problem is horrifying!  While they may complain, they really like their parts.  Just wish they were more perfect women.

When I first learned what a uterus was, I hated the word, hated the shape, and imagined it pushing against my skin and making 'that shape'.  When someone first mentioned I was 'developing' boobs I was horrified!  I can only thank the powers that be that women in my family are small-chested.  And tried to hide them.  Cleavage enhancing shirts?  I was mortified by those lumps, why would I want to show them off?!  And when I'd see women enhancing theirs, I'd think, why do they want to do that?

I can totally relate to what Eryk said as well.  I used to think everyone hated it.  I was wrong!  LOL


Jay

[Lori]

I can't speak for anyone but myself, but I for one *hate* the growths on my chest, they're heavy, they get in the way, they hurt, and I'm not comfortable at all unless they are strapped in as tight as I can get them and they can barely move. It's bad enough I have to SEE them, I don't want to FEEL them moving about all the time, too! Those things are lucky they get let out to bathe! (haha, I secretly always wished if I didn't give them room to grow, they wouldn't be able to. That didn't work like I had hoped)
!

Wow, I live in the boob capital of the world lol. So many women I work with have had boob jobs. I know some that have had natural full breasts that want reductions. Seems if you have them you loathe them, if you don't then you want them. Maybe everybody is different. I can't wait until mine come in fully. I don't think this sports bra I wear everyday is slowing them down any lol.

[Nero]

Eerrr    I suppose I'll add my [apparently quite lengthy, sorry!] cisgendered female opinion..

I'm perfectly happy in my body.  Most of the self-image problems that women have involve wanting their feminine shape to be prettier or closer to the feminine ideal, whatever that ideal is in their heads.  They don't wish they were men, they wish they were more perfect of a woman.  The worst I ever felt about my body was before puberty, when I was flat and skinny all over.  I felt ugly.  Now that I have curves, my body image is the best it's ever been.

I don't think of my body as cumbersome, at all.  I like my breasts.  I don't think of them as useless fat bags.  In fact, if anyone called them that to my face I would be a little put off.  I think of them as fun and squishy and I do everything I can to make them look bigger.  Any shirt that gives me cleavage is a good shirt and must be bought.  My only problem with them, if any, is that they're too small. I like my hips, I like my delicate bone structure, etc etc.  You might think these things are annoying or alien, but that's because you're a man.   When I reached puberty and I could see everything changing in the mirror, I was ecstatic.  And honestly, even though I don't plan on having kids, I think the fact that I could if I wanted to is beautiful and miraculous all by itself.  If I were straight and had sex with guys, I'd use a condom. Women can have straight sex as often as they want to, if they're safe about it.  And many do.

Sure periods are annoying, but.. when I got mine for the first time, I was so excited.  I was so impatient for it, for like a year beforehand I kept asking my mom why I hadn't gotten it yet, so when it finally happened I ran around the house with the biggest smile on my face and made a fool of myself calling my grandma to brag about it.  Now, six years later, they get annoying, but annoying is not the same as dysphoria.  I don't feel 'wrong' when I get them- in fact, when I skipped a month recently, that felt wrong.

Now let's look at it from the other side.  I, being perfectly happy as a woman, don't find the prospect of having a man's body very appealing.  Now, I could very easily write about all of the worst things I can possible think of about a man's body, and paint it in the worst light- it's smelly, hairy, has rough skin, has no softness, has annoying dangly bits that do even more annoying and disgusting things, and it can go bald.  Now I ask you, why doesn't every man on earth throw up when he sees himself in the mirror and wish he was a woman?   Because not everyone is dysphoric.  It's easy to think that the gender one doesn't identify as must have a hard time or must not like it.. but that's because we don't identify.  If we did, of course we'd understand.  Y'know?

good points Tam. sorry for downgrading the female body that way. I mean I do think it's gorgeous on other people.  I'm going through the bizarre phenomenon of vanished dysphoria and it's not making sense that the body could create so much misery and then have it mostly evaporate. I'm just left with the question of where it went, was it real, etc.
my apologies to all the ladies here and anyone else who may have been offended.

[sneakersjay]

I'm going through the bizarre phenomenon of vanished dysphoria and it's not making sense that the body could create so much misery and then have it mostly evaporate. I'm just left with the question of where it went, was it real, etc.
my apologies to all the ladies here and anyone else who may have been offended.

You've been asking some cool questions lately, Nero.


Jay

[Nero]

TamTam makes some good points.  I work with pretty much all women, and while they bitch and moan about how fat they are and how cramps suck, the thought of having a hysterectomy to 'fix' the problem is horrifying!  While they may complain, they really like their parts.  Just wish they were more perfect women.

When I first learned what a uterus was, I hated the word, hated the shape, and imagined it pushing against my skin and making 'that shape'.  When someone first mentioned I was 'developing' boobs I was horrified!  I can only thank the powers that be that women in my family are small-chested.  And tried to hide them.  Cleavage enhancing shirts?  I was mortified by those lumps, why would I want to show them off?!  And when I'd see women enhancing theirs, I'd think, why do they want to do that?

I can totally relate to what Eryk said as well.  I used to think everyone hated it.  I was wrong!  LOL


Jay

like this Jay?
Think I failed Biology. had to look it up the shape. That's actually a vase from bedzine. I do remember a gyno reaching her hand up and touching it once. Had to be the oddest sensation in the world. Felt like a jellfish or something. I wanted her to do it again. otherworldly.