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Why are there are no female counterparts to the eunuch or hijra?

Started by Nero, July 24, 2009, 06:31:24 PM

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Nero

Other than references to a few Native American tribal distinctions and a few women soldiers who fought as men, there is precious little historical information on transgendered female bodied persons. Even in societies where crossdressing and masculinity are frowned upon in females, there are no female eunuchs or hijras. Setting aside Western society and focusing on historical and traditional cultures, female bodied transgendered people are unrecognized and untreated.

Is this a reflection of:

a) the ratio of mtfs really being higher than that of ftms

b) sexism - nobody can be bothered with women's needs or wants

c) female oppression in traditional cultures - women simply aren't free enough to pursue their own desires

d) difficulty in altering female sex organs (removing/crushing ovaries, producing a phallus, etc)

e) society's reluctance to aid the lesser sex in physical alteration to approximate the dominant sex

What do you think?

Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Lachlann

I think the number for FTMs seems much lower because there is/was not enough information so FTMs continue to live their lives the way they do because they know of no solution. There is an art site I go to, and surprisingly I find a lot of FTMs... a lot more than MTFs, and I think it might be awareness, seeing as these days we have a lot more information going around.

It may have been sexism, who knows. When they started these medical advances, women had yet to go through their rights battles... or at least not to the extent that they did many years later after the first MTF.
Don't be scared to fly alone, find a path that is your own
Love will open every door it's in your hands, the world is yours
Don't hold back and always know, all the answers will unfold
What are you waiting for, spread your wings and soar
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lizbeth

this was an interesting episode of Taboo that discusses 5 genders,

Five Genders?

there is also a dying culture in romania (i think) that has many women that either choose are are chosen to live as men and have the same roles (although I don't think they use any hormones or surgeries, it's just a social role)
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Nero

Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Janet_Girl

Now if only the rest of world would accept that kind of harmony.

Thank You, Beth.

Janet
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Princess

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Lisbeth

Quote from: Nero on July 24, 2009, 06:31:24 PM
Other than references to a few Native American tribal distinctions and a few women soldiers who fought as men, there is precious little historical information on transgendered female bodied persons.

Why do you feel that women soldiers who fought as men don't count?
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Autumn

Quote from: Princess on July 26, 2009, 03:12:42 PM
well, why are there no male counterparts to tomboys?

Transvestites. Ask Eddie Izzard.

Or, since TV often has a sexual link, crossdressers, or emo boys.
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Lachlann

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 26, 2009, 07:17:17 PM
Why do you feel that women soldiers who fought as men don't count?
Wasn't there a theory that Joan Of Arc might have been transgender?
Don't be scared to fly alone, find a path that is your own
Love will open every door it's in your hands, the world is yours
Don't hold back and always know, all the answers will unfold
What are you waiting for, spread your wings and soar
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Nero

Quote from: Lisbeth on July 26, 2009, 07:17:17 PM
Why do you feel that women soldiers who fought as men don't count?

I just mean that they're not a quantified 'group'. Plus it's really hard to say if they were just dressing as men because that was the only way to serve or if they actually had a trans identity.
Nero was the Forum Admin here at Susan's Place for several years up to the time of his death.
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Lisbeth

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2009, 08:17:11 PM
I just mean that they're not a quantified 'group'. Plus it's really hard to say if they were just dressing as men because that was the only way to serve or if they actually had a trans identity.

How about all the ones who came home from the wars and stayed men?
"Anyone who attempts to play the 'real transsexual' card should be summarily dismissed, as they are merely engaging in name calling rather than serious debate."
--Julia Serano

http://juliaserano.blogspot.com/2011/09/transsexual-versus-transgender.html
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Cindy

The Amazon culture? and no I don't mean the internet store :laugh:

Valykeries ( I think that's the wrong spelling?)

The warrior Queens in Celtic culture.

I think both Romand and Grecian culture had controlling females.

I may (as usual) got the wrong point of the thread.

Having a very bad time just now, posting to survive

Cindy
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Miniar

I think it's D

Snipping off things that are on the outside of the body without killing the person. = Less hard than removing things from within the body without killing the person.

That being said...

*cringes at the thought*



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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sd

Quote from: Princess on July 26, 2009, 03:12:42 PM
well, why are there no male counterparts to tomboys?
They are called sissys and are usually beat up by the boys.

Post Merge: July 28, 2009, 03:32:52 AM

Quote from: Monty on July 26, 2009, 08:05:44 PM
Wasn't there a theory that Joan Of Arc might have been transgender?
Yes and a few, including myself, also wonder about Calamity Jane.
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Shana A

Quote from: Nero on July 26, 2009, 08:17:11 PM
I just mean that they're not a quantified 'group'. Plus it's really hard to say if they were just dressing as men because that was the only way to serve or if they actually had a trans identity.

Here's a couple of relevant articles posted previously. There's another story from NPR that I remember posting a few months ago but can't find it.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,44933.0.html

http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2008/05/22/she_fought_in_revolution_disguised_as_a_man/
"Be yourself; everyone else is already taken." Oscar Wilde


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Janet_Girl

Also possible female circumcision.  Horrible practice.

Janet
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Cindy

But isn't female circumcision purely for male sexual satisfaction? Is that the same as eunuchs etc?
And I agree totally barbaric practice
Cindy
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Jamie-o

I wish I could find the reference, but I was reading a while back about a tradition somewhere in the Middle East (I think.  Or it might be the Romanian tradition that Beth-chella mentioned) that allowed women to take on the role of a man, so long as she swore to remain a virgin for the rest of her life.  In exchange she was granted all the rights of men, dressed as a man, was referred to as a man, etc.  It was usually something that the eldest virgin daughter would do if her father died and there were no male relatives who could take over the family.  Because women were not allowed to work the whole family would starve unless one of the daughters became a "perpetual virgin", got a job, and supported them.

As I say, I can't find it anymore, but there was an article about one of the last remaining "Virgins", who had sworn the oath in the '20s or 30's and had lived as a man ever since.
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Miniar

There was a similar thing in ancient Greece where there were few women who devoted themselves to philosophical pursuits and lived as other philosophers (all men) often to the point where they took wives.



"Everyone who has ever built anywhere a new heaven first found the power thereto in his own hell" - Nietzsche
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sd

Quote from: CindyJames on August 16, 2009, 02:38:22 AM
But isn't female circumcision purely for male sexual satisfaction? Is that the same as eunuchs etc?
And I agree totally barbaric practice
Cindy
Depends on which female circ. people are referring to.
Some say it is removing the hood, some say it is removing the clit.

Neither removes sex drive or hormones like castrating a man does and neither aids a man's enjoyment.
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