treatments and cures and bodies and brians

[metal angel]

I hope i don't cause offense, i'm just thinking aloud and looking for calm and honest opinions.

If you find the brain-body missmatch severely depressing and need to reconcile it to be happy, would you consider a treatment that treated the brain instead of the body? Would you consider a therapy that made you feel more comfortable in your original body as an alternative to a therapy that made your body match your current mind?

I know the idea of a cure for homosexuality is totally unacceptable, and i think i agree, but in the case of homosexuality most of the "problem" which could lead to anxiety and depression is external and a matter of tollerance, and no real treatment is needed, just tollerance.

For transexuals the problem is more innate. And transexuals already desire some sort of rather drastic treatment. So would you find a psychological or neurological treatment acceptable (if it could be effective)? why or why not? how severe a neurological treatment would you try? Counciling? Drugs? Brain surgery?

[Janet_Girl]

Hi Metal,

No offense taken here.

For me, I am already doing what I need to do to be a whole, health human being.

Treatments to cure the mind are from those who don't accept anything outside of their narrow little world.  So many things have been tried in the past and it has only lead to death, destruction of a healthy brain or madness.

This has been discussed many times.  And most here will say that transition was the key.  Instead of looking for the cure, why don't they help the person who is suffering.  I know what and who I am.  Their opinion is of no concern of mine.

Instead of spending thousands of dollars on the cure, simple pay for that what is really needed, freedom from pain, depression and misery.

And for the record I am a pre-op MtF TS and a lesbian.

Janet

[LordKAT]

My brian (sic) could be happy as a female, ok but I haven't seen anything that says that is possible. I will opt for what has been shown to work.

[Just Kate]

A brain "cure" would be desirable for many people, myself included.  So much so that I consider those working and researching such to be of great value.  We have many people working to support us in our pain right now, therapists, activists, and support groups.  I think we need more resources thrown toward the research of this condition so a greater understanding (dare I say a cure) can be reached and shared.

[Miniar]

I think that the brain isn't re-wire-able well enough to rely on therapy to fix it.
If I could take a pill that would solve this by simply making my brain female to match the flesh, I would seriously consider it.
But in the end, I probably wouldn't "do" it...
"I" am a man, if I change that, then "I" am no more. Whoever that girl would be, wouldn't be me.

[Cindy]

There was some work done on this in the 50's. Treat MtF (FtM of course didn't exist ) with aversion therapy. One way was to let the "boy" dress and then a group of people, under the instruction of a psychologist, would ridicule "him" until the embarresment was so great they would break down. Keep doing this on a regular basis until the "boy" no longer would dress. Therefore cured.

I have had in the past correspondence from people subjected to this, it didn't work, just ruined what psych they had.
My parents tried something similar, but I'm one really strong willed bitch, and my sister refused to cooperate with them. It pretty obviously didn't work with me either.

I'm not in the area but my understanding is that "re-wiring" brains in mentally ill people just doesn't work. You can control psychotic urges with drug therapy but I don't think that is a cure.
BTW I am not in any way implying that LBGTG conditions are a mental illness, just using an example.

I also understand that the rather unsophisticated techniques of brainwashing practiced by Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Stalin, and of cousre Mao and the red guards, were failures. People may submit but they still remain themselves.

Just for a change I'm probably way off the topic.

Cindy

[metal angel]

I think that the brain isn't re-wire-able well enough to rely on therapy to fix it.
If I could take a pill that would solve this by simply making my brain female to match the flesh, I would seriously consider it.
But in the end, I probably wouldn't "do" it...
"I" am a man, if I change that, then "I" am no more. Whoever that girl would be, wouldn't be me.

I was wonderring if anyone would say this. I guess it makes sense to me. The mind seems more like self than the body does, so changing the body is more palatable. I can't even articulate it, but i guess i get it. I refuse to take long-term psychological drugs to normalise me, there's a chance there may be some drugs out there that would make me less anxious and might make life easier, but i feel like maybe i wouldn't be "me" so i prefer to take the approach of learning skills to better handle my eccentricities.

But to me, the body also seems like self. I feel like modifying my body so drastically would also make me, "not me anymore". I guess whatever missmatch seems to be a lot less severe or less deep the the people who resort to surgery so i can't quite relate to the level of distress with the missmatch?

I gues the brutality of previous attempt to make people's minds conform to the gender stereotypes is also an understandable reason for pessimism. But to me the surgical/hormonal route also seems pretty brutal? Lack of success is a factor too, but medical science is not up to the stage where it can create a fully functioning body of the opposite gender to match the psyche... so i guess that just leaves us with what we consider "self". Or just good old "whatever seems to make you happier".
Post Merge: August 27, 2009, 06:12:05 AM
The ideal cure, as i see it would be to have a masculine mind happy in a female body or visa versa.

I worry a little that the medical reassignment of bodily gender is just as dramatic an effect of narrow gender roles as the cruel re-programming tactics of old-school psychology? In an ideal world a womans body should not stop you taking on almost all male roles except biological fatherhood (and current medical technology doesn't allow transwomen to be fathers anyway). but i guess we don't live in an ideal world, and looking like the gender that doesn't match the role you want to play can be very tricky.

Or maybe there is some deeper disconnect that makes this just not possible for extreme cases, even in the most accepting culture?

I think the solution for me is to learn to love in the body i am already blessed with, and find ways to do what i want to do regardless of my gender. But if i have GID at all it is some sort of milder version, and probably something all together less neurological than true/severe/real GID. so that doesn't fit for all cases.

[Miniar]

I know that changing the body changes the person. I agree.
The body is a part of who we are.
Heck, the proof is as simple as accidentally kicking a chair. It provokes emotional response. You can get angry with the inanimate object you accidentally hurt yourself on.

But the current situation that I am in causes me too much problems for me to settle for it. I've done what I can to deal with it, but I am unable. Something's got to give.

Honestly, the surgeries themselves, I don't expect them to change me at all, but I'm Terrified that the change in hormones will change me as a person to a point where my relationship with my partner will suffer for it. He's the only person who's ever gotten to know me fully and yet has accepted me. He treats me with more respect than any other man ever has.. he treats me like an equal.
I can't even begin to imagine what I'd do if I'd loose him.
Which goes to show just how much pain the current situation causes me.
Knowing that the path I'll take is possibly capable of ruining the one truly good thing I have, I still have to walk it, because I can't possibly take not doing it.

[LordKAT]

In an ideal world a womans body should not stop you taking on almost all male roles except biological fatherhood (and current medical technology doesn't allow transwomen to be fathers anyway). but i guess we don't live in an ideal world, and looking like the gender that doesn't match the role you want to play can be very tricky.

Transmen may want to be fathers but transwomen not likely,

[metal angel]

Transmen may want to be fathers but transwomen not likely,

typo

[Debra]

To save my marriage I might consider such treatments.

On a similar note, my parents want me to check to see if I have a hormone imbalance. My testosterone is normal but they haven't checked my estrogen yet. If my estrogen levels are out of whack they would treat it by giving me more testosterone. I should be fine with this but it scares me to death.

I don't know why I'm worried about possible testosterone treatments and yet I am ok with the other way around.

[Vancha]

I have developed my identity as it is now, and I would consider it a terrible loss if a "cure" came and wiped out every trace of dignity and self-respect I have.

[Nicky]

Any 'cure' of my mind would be an evil thing I think. It would be like wipeing a big componant of my identity. If a magic pill exsisted It would be an evil thing - what would be next "here is a pill that will cure you of christianity, here is a pill that will make you right handed, here is a pill that will make you like sports, here is a pill that will remove any racial identity you have, here is a pill that will make you vote republican, here is a pill that will make all people mindless clone workers"

I find it distasteful that a cure would remove part of our free will, the freedom to think and feel as we are.

I don't want to be comfortable in my current body. I want acceptance, tolerance, be able to behave as I want, be treated as I want, be able to change my body to how I want it. It is my body, I should be able to do with it as I please.

[tekla]

here is a pill that will cure you of christianity

Can I order a truckload and dump them into the water supply?

here is a pill that will make you vote republican
Prozac

[Nicky]

here is a pill that will cure you of christianity

Can I order a truckload and dump them into the water supply?

I would agree, but then I would hate to think what all those people would then do with their time. Religion is a good occupyer.

[tekla]

They would have to think for themselves, that should occupy a couple of years at least.

[metal angel]

I find it distasteful that a cure would remove part of our free will, the freedom to think and feel as we are.

no, in this hypothetical i was thinking of it was an option for you to choose, there isn't one, so it's just hypthetical/philosphical

i figurred the mind is more "you" and the body is more "yours" from your perspective, so it does make sense to me that changing the body seems like a mopre palatable idea even if both are options
Post Merge: September 04, 2009, 02:26:55 AM

here is a pill that will cure you of christianity
Can I order a truckload and dump them into the water supply?

hrmmm... no, mass medication seems unethical, but can we at least chuck the God Delusion in the DSM and give them the option of treatment?

[Sandy]

The whole pill to make you normal bull->-bleeped-<- would make the whole goddamned world happy.

It removes the need for anyone who is "normal" from the effort to accept those who aren't.  Wouldn't the religious fanatics love such a thing?  If a trans person makes you uncomfortable, make them take the pill to make them normal!

If there were a pill that would eliminate GID at the brain level it would probably be mandatory to take it.  More than likely by force if necessary.  And would probably be the very first thing administered if a guy was caught wearing a bra or a woman stuffed a sock in her pants.

Then, of course, as a precautionary measure it would be administered to any woman with short hair or any man who wore pink.

Best not be caught swishing your hips guys!  If you don't watch football you too could get the pill!

And girls if you don't swoon over the latest county singing heartthrob, well you are just too macho and that would have to be fixed.

If I was ever fed that pill, I would kill myself before it had a chance to take.  But then again, I wouldn't be me anyway, so I'd be just as dead.

-Sandy

^{cnat spel}

[Cindy Stephens]

Until I was 24 or so, I desperately wanted to change and would have taken two of the pills just to make sure it took.  I took a lot of psychedelics in the 6o's for just that reason.  I finally totally accepted myself in the 70's and since then I would resist any attempt to chemically change me.  Now a pill that would change my body to match my mind; give me two!

[metal angel]

The whole pill to make you normal bull->-bleeped-<- would make the whole goddamned world happy.

It removes the need for anyone who is "normal" from the effort to accept those who aren't.  Wouldn't the religious fanatics love such a thing?  If a trans person makes you uncomfortable, make them take the pill to make them normal!

If there were a pill that would eliminate GID at the brain level it would probably be mandatory to take it.  More than likely by force if necessary.  And would probably be the very first thing administered if a guy was caught wearing a bra or a woman stuffed a sock in her pants.

Then, of course, as a precautionary measure it would be administered to any woman with short hair or any man who wore pink.

Best not be caught swishing your hips guys!  If you don't watch football you too could get the pill!

And girls if you don't swoon over the latest county singing heartthrob, well you are just too macho and that would have to be fixed.

If I was ever fed that pill, I would kill myself before it had a chance to take.  But then again, I wouldn't be me anyway, so I'd be just as dead.

-Sandy

^{cnat spel}

I can see where you get your fears from, but they do seem a bit outdated. Alan Turing (who helped win the war) probably committed suicide in 1952 to avoid compulsory "treatment" for his homosexuality. but nowehere is the western world does anything like that anymore.
Post Merge: September 05, 2009, 03:53:43 AM
so am i correct in my interpretation that the mind is more "you" than the body, so fixing the body is somehow more acceptable/ethical?