Arizona Pastor calls for execution of gays.

[tekla]

According to their DEEPLY held belief system, a person who hasn't been "saved" by faith in Christ IS in mortal peril and that being the case, attempting to warn that person - even in the face of indifference or even hostility - is the noblest service they can possibly render. It's not "oppression" or "imposition" or "harassment"....it's the same as getting that fellow out of the burning house.


So, we're supposed to humor them because they have a mental defect that lets them think they have an imaginary friend in the sky?

[Julie Marie]

Julie i confess I've never been much of an "evagalistic" type - far less so than the logic i am about to explain should have mad me BUT....

whenever I hear someone expres the sentiments you just did, i know I'm hearing from a person who's never even TRIED to put themselves in the shoes of the person they don't approve of.

First of all, you couldn't be more wrong about me not putting myself in someone else's shoes.  I do it all the time to help me understand why people do what they do.  And when I put myself in the shoes of someone knocking at my door trying to convert me to their religious beliefs I wonder what took place in their lives that led them to believe this is an acceptable form of human behavior.  They don't know me at all.  They don't know what is in my heart.  Yet they feel they have an obligation to condemn me and try to persuade me to accept their faith as my own.  I could spend a lifetime in their shoes and never understand that self righteous attitude.

If you break my door down because you think my house is on fire only to find I have a roaring fire safely contained in my fireplace, I would hope you would be extremely apologetic about breaking in and offer to pay for the damages.  And then, I expect, you would leave.  You wouldn't take a hose and try to douse the fire in spite of my protests.

These people don't listen to us.  They INSIST we are sinners who need saving, even though we harm no one and are happy in our beliefs.  They are either extremely dense or so brainwashed by their religious beliefs that they can't see the person screaming in their face saying, "Leave me ALONE!!!"

But from there point of view, as they understand the nature of human existence, the worst thing they could possibly do to you is leave you to your fate.

That's why.

Well maybe they should do what you accused me of not doing, put themselves in the shoes of the people who they are harassing and making their lives miserable.  Because if they did, they would understand we see them as a bunch of meddlesome busybodies who need to mind their own business.

Maybe you can talk to THEM about the shoe on the other foot concept. 

Julie

[MaggieB]

Laura,

I once gave that exact argument to "unbelievers" as a way to help them understand why I was evangelizing them.   Yep, I drank the Koolaid.  I was convinced that I had found the way the truth and the life.  With this as a value system and the church's exhortation to spread the "Good News" I was out doing my part.  But you know, I was wrong.  After all these years, I can't recommend the faith anymore.  I did it back then because I had not seen what the "Faithful" are really like. 

You say that 99% of pastors are not like this guy but can you substantiate this?  Why is it then that the leadership who are funded by donations by thousands and thousands of ordinary Christians, are spouting off such homophobic claptrap and actively trying to stop gay marriage?  Is there one of these so called pastors who will get in front of a microphone or post on a web site condemning the church's position?  There may be but he or she isn't getting much media attention or donations.  Why?

Do you think that the animus between the LBGT community and the church is not justified?  Would you recommend that we all go to church next Sunday? Should I just walk into any random church?  Will I be received well?  Or will I be shunned or worse forced to leave?  No you wouldn't because some of us might be physically hurt.

So really, why defend the faith and the organized church so vigorously here at Susans?  Do you really think we aren't familiar with church people?   To say that we don't know is almost condescending. 


BTW, this pastor was interviewed by Mike Signorile of Sirius XM radio
http://www.signorile.com/2009/09/steven-l-anderson-killing-gays-is-not.html   He says that he hopes Mike gets brain cancer and dies like Ted Kennedy. 

AND the pastor is connected to the protestor who took a semi-automatic weapon to an Obama Health Care town meeting.
http://www.pamshouseblend.com/diary/12678/heatpacking-protestor-connected-to-pastor-steven-anderson


Maggie

[Tammy Hope]

In this case, we're talking about a man who believes in speeding gays along to eternal torture.  This isn't about compassion and salvation, it's about sadism and hate.  Even for less extreme evangelicals, I think a lot of them, deep in their hearts, wouldn't be all that sad if God smote the lot of us right now.

To be clear, Anderson is a nut job and nothing I said is any sort of defense of HIM or any other person who calls for God's judgment on anyone. The ethical and orthodox position of Biblical Christianity is that God is VERY longsuffering, slow to judge, quick to forgive, and witholds his hand as long as he possibly can because "God is not willing that any should perish"

If that's God's position, it MUST be the position of the believer. it's not anyone's place to judge another but if you forced me to take a stand, I'd say that Anderson and Phelps and that ilk are EVERY BIT as far outside God's will and at odds with his views as the most notorious Satanist.

However, I completely disagree with your sentiment here:

Even for less extreme evangelicals, I think a lot of them, deep in their hearts, wouldn't be all that sad if God smote the lot of us right now.

I spent most of my life in Southern Baptist churches and I know for a FACT that this is not true. Certainly there's a relatively large minority that at least sympathizes with that view....but there's a decent minority of almost any race who things that we'd be better off if the "n****rs" (or whitiey or whoever it is they hate) were smote out of existence too....but we don't judge the "whole lot" as bigots just because of a significant minority of bigots among them.


Post Merge: September 04, 2009, 12:05:11 PM

According to their DEEPLY held belief system, a person who hasn't been "saved" by faith in Christ IS in mortal peril and that being the case, attempting to warn that person - even in the face of indifference or even hostility - is the noblest service they can possibly render. It's not "oppression" or "imposition" or "harassment"....it's the same as getting that fellow out of the burning house.


So, we're supposed to humor them because they have a mental defect that lets them think they have an imaginary friend in the sky?

You might want to read what I SAID, and read it in the CONTEXT of what I was replying to before you ask any more dumb questions.

[tekla]

OK, so I walk into a psychiatric hospital, I tell them I have a friend that no one can see, and that friend made the entire universe, and controls all of it, and if I do exactly what he says I'll never die.  And when they ask who my friend is, I tell them "Bob" - what you think will happen next?  Matter of fact, if I tell them any name other than "Jesus" I'll pretty much get locked up.

it's not anyone's place to judge another
Tell it to the choir.

[Tammy Hope]

First of all, you couldn't be more wrong about me not putting myself in someone else's shoes.  I do it all the time to help me understand why people do what they do. 

Please don't see this as hostility on my part because my sympathies are with YOU, not with THEM. Which is why I was never a "soul winner" myself, I Just couldn't be that pushy.

But that said, with all due respect to the fact that you know you better than I do...what they thing and how they act is perfectly consistent with understanding their world view. If you have tried to put yourself in their shoes you failed because you can't wrap your mind around what they believe.
I don't blame you for that - it's quite like me not being able to grok who a terrorist thinks blowing up a bus full of innocents is an act pleasing to God. But while I don't get it, I understand WHY, in their twisted world view, THEY think it makes sense.

And when I put myself in the shoes of someone knocking at my door trying to convert me to their religious beliefs I wonder what took place in their lives that led them to believe this is an acceptable form of human behavior. 

Nothing "took place" - they were indoctrinated into it. Just like all sorts of other people are indoctrinated into all sorts of other beliefs that can't possibly all be true. Why is it so unusual? They annoy you? no doubt. Is that ALL the human behavior that annoys you?

I know that it is not. So what's so worthy of remark about this particular form of annoyance. for example, a Jehovah's Witness knocking on my door annoys me....and the guy going to slow down the highway in front of me annoys me.

Equally so. I have no greater need to complain about the former than about the latter.

They don't know me at all.  They don't know what is in my heart.  Yet they feel they have an obligation to condemn me and try to persuade me to accept their faith as my own.  I could spend a lifetime in their shoes and never understand that self righteous attitude.

Friend, do you not realize that YOU are, in this very paragraph, taking EXACTLY the same attitude about their beliefs and behavior that you are complaining that they take about yours?

Are you condeming their behavior? Yes, just as they probably would yours.

Are you questioning their belifs? Yes, just as they question yours.

Do you wish they would change their mind and share your view of their beliefs and behavior? Yes, just as they do yours.

Now, you will argue that you do not go to their home and try to convince them to change, and that is true and it does mean you hold a milder form of the same views  - but the nature of each set of beliefs is exactly the same, and it that both views are "self righteous"

If you break my door down because you think my house is on fire only to find I have a roaring fire safely contained in my fireplace, I would hope you would be extremely apologetic about breaking in and offer to pay for the damages.  And then, I expect, you would leave.  You wouldn't take a hose and try to douse the fire in spite of my protests.

Naturally, but then in their point of view, that's not what they will find - unless of course you can convince the evangelist that hell really doesn't exist.

If you can, I am certain that person would indeed apologize for trying to warn you of a false danger.

These people don't listen to us. 

and you listen to them?

They INSIST we are sinners who need saving, even though we harm no one and are happy in our beliefs.  They are either extremely dense or so brainwashed by their religious beliefs that they can't see the person screaming in their face saying, "Leave me ALONE!!!"[/color][/font]

Never said they were not brainwashed. Albeit it is always possible that the person I think is brainwashed is actually right and I am wrong because none of us has cornered the market on truth.
I'm not suggesting in any sense that they are not brainwashed, delusional, wrong, or even insane.

I'm simply answering your original question - "Why do they do it?"

I'm not telling you that you should agree with their reasoning or even find the behavior acceptable - just explaining as best i can "why" which is what you asked.

Any time any person believe ANY thing passionately, they will go out and try to make a difference based on what they believe - the same reason civil rights protesters spend their lives trying to change the society they live in, the same reason some people spend their lives trying to care for the poor, the same reason ideologues spend their life grasping for power in order to enact their views.

Doesn't make any of them right or wrong because they are passionate - but it does explain why they do what they do.

Well maybe they should do what you accused me of not doing, put themselves in the shoes of the people who they are harassing and making their lives miserable.  Because if they did, they would understand we see them as a bunch of meddlesome busybodies who need to mind their own business.

Indeed they do. Desperately. Even before I accepted that they were wrong about my "condition" I understood instinctively that aggressive evangelism did much more to hurt their cause than it did to further it.

Just like the suicide bomber (albeit on a vastly smaller scale) I see a misplaced sense of "doing God's will" - but i wasn't ever arguing they were doing the right thing, or that they were not in need of a change - just understanding why it seemed right to them.

By the way, as mentioned above, the aggressive evangelist is a distinct minority in even the most aggressive Christian church (Mormons and JW's not being Christians)

The SBC is the most evangelistic of the major denominations and I never met a pastor (and I know a BIG lot of them) who didn't bemoan the fact that no more than 1% of his congregation were "soul winners" who would show up for visitations or bring potential new Christians to church. the VAST majority of new church members in the SBC are those who come out of the immediate family of an already existing church member.

Probably the independent Baptists and some segments of Pentacostalism have better luck but even so, I'd bet you anything that there's not one Christian church in America (again, Mormons and JW's don't count) who gets even 10% of their membership to be really assertive "soul winners".

Most never EVER try to evangelize anyone (I held a ministry license and I NEVER made a cold call) and another huge minority would only ever approach someone they already had a friendly relationship.

the typical break down, in my opinion, even in the most "aggressive" congregation is -

3-4% = aggressive "soul winners" (by the way, most of these are new converts running on the fuel of just having believed)
~15% = will evangelize a friend or neighbor or family member or co-worker with whom they already have a relationship
~80% = would never have the courage to speak to anyone about their faith system

And yet, among non-believers the common assumption is that to be a Christian is, by definition, to be an agressive conversion-obsessed a--hole.

'taint so.

Maybe you can talk to THEM about the shoe on the other foot concept. 

Julie[/color][/font]

Quite frankly, I have had MANY conversation with pastors and deacons and others about my HUGE reservations about cold-call evangelism.

(By the way - I think this one might merge with te previous one again which sometimes I HATE because it ends up resulting in a HUGE post no one wants to read - but I don't know how to stop it. Apologies to all if it turns out that way)
Post Merge: September 04, 2009, 12:30:40 PM

Laura,

I once gave that exact argument to "unbelievers" as a way to help them understand why I was evangelizing them.   Yep, I drank the Koolaid.  I was convinced that I had found the way the truth and the life.  With this as a value system and the church's exhortation to spread the "Good News" I was out doing my part.  But you know, I was wrong.

Yup. Never said they were not wrong.
In my observation it tends to be the new convert who's drunk on the Kool-Aid, a tiny minority are hard core enough to be that way for years.

After all these years, I can't recommend the faith anymore.  I did it back then because I had not seen what the "Faithful" are really like. 

You say that 99% of pastors are not like this guy but can you substantiate this?

Well, let's see - in 1986 I "rededicated" at a "crusade" and in 1988 I "accepted the call" and was licensed into the ministry by a rather fundamentalist SBC pastor. From 2001 to 2005 I attended a very conservative Baptist college and got a Bible minor along with my Social Science major (and only lack maybe 12 hours having a Bible major as well) and over the course of those 20 years (1986-2006) I met personally probably 2-300 SBC preachers and a few dozen of other faiths.

I have not ever met ONE in my life who would agree with Anderson's views. Now, that preacher who was my pastor who licensed me, and who preformed our wedding, is still an acquaintance of mine and his wife and mine talk on the phone almost every day and he does NOT approve of my new look (hell, he doesn't approve of short-legged pants)

But I can state confidently that he doesn't want me, or any gay person, or the president "smote down by God" for our sinful ways.

Is he wrong? Oh hell yeah! but even he wouldn't approve of Anderson's words. Unless there's a place in the US (outside maybe Utah) that's a helluvalot more infested with backwards fundy preachers than MISSISSIPPI is (and i find that astoundingly hard to believe) then yeah, I can saw with confidence that Anderson is a total anomaly.

  Why is it then that the leadership who are funded by donations by thousands and thousands of ordinary Christians, are spouting off such homophobic claptrap and actively trying to stop gay marriage?

Trying to stop gay marriage is hell-and-gone from wishing all gays would be struck dead.

Is there one of these so called pastors who will get in front of a microphone or post on a web site condemning the church's position?

Actually, there are pastors, less so in Bapist and Pentacostal denominations than in others, who DO oppose their churches official position on gay marriage. There are SBC churches that PREFORM gay marriages (because in the SBC each church is autonomous)

There may be but he or she isn't getting much media attention or donations.  Why?

because the media LOVEs the stereotype that all Christians are backward toothless hillbillies or clinically insane or hateful monsters and they seldom run any story which casts a christian - particularly a conservative one - in a positive light.

for instance, did you know that the SBC spent more money on Katrina relief than any non-governmental agency? More than most of the rest of them COMBINED?

if you did I feel confident in saying you didn't learn that on the Evening news or from the NYT.

Do you think that the animus between the LBGT community and the church is not justified?

You are wandering FAR afield from the reply I posted at this point. I don't think it's fair that you read a particular answer to a particular question out of context as a defense of every thought and action of every Chrisitan on every position and expect me to defend these things or take a stand on them.

Julie ask a very specific question and got a very specific answer and now we are talking about much broader themes in your reply.

That said, the animus you refer to is well founded, but the LGBT community (as a whole) is EVERY BIT as bigoted about Christians as Christians are about gays. Now, since they see them as a threat that is understandable, but the fact remains that he LGBT community stereotypes ALL Christians in a characature that applies to a distinct minority, in just the same way as the reverse is true.

I will qualify this with an admission that the big majority of straight people have a latent discomfort level with gays and trans people that transcends whatever religious views they have, but being uncomfortable is not being bigoted.

  Would you recommend that we all go to church next Sunday?

Given I haven't set foot in a church (except for a funeral) in over 2 years and have NO intention of doing so, I suspect you are making a false assumption here.

Should I just walk into any random church?  Will I be received well?  Or will I be shunned or worse forced to leave?

any RANDOM church?
Why?
would you do so if you were not trans and just happened to be looking for a place to worship?

would you make no distinction between Catholic and Methodist? No distinction between Episcopal and Pentacostal?

Of course you would. you set up a strawman here.

We can do better in this discussion than that.

However, no, there is no guarantee you would be accepted well in ANY church - but there ARE churches out there, some attended by members of our own community here, where you could go and be warmly accepted and loved as you are.

Let's be clear here - why is it Christians are wrong to judge all trans people as if they were outrageous drag queens and all gays as if they were hyper-promiscuous drug addicts (and they ARE wrong to do so) but it's okay for a trans or gay person to describe Christians as if ALL believers are hateful bigoted mean-spirited narrow-minded judgmental asses who would round us all up into concentration camps or worse if they could?

It's not ok. and yet FAR too many of the voices i see here seem to make just that assumption.

  No you wouldn't because some of us might be physically hurt.

If I had any use for what's being preached in the churches in this town, I would not hesitate to walk into any of them. If I had enough of a chip on my shoulder to confront them with the wrongness of their views, I'd do it for spite just to put the issue in front of their faces.

But would I fear being physically assaulted? Maybe in a couple of seriously wacked out Pentecostal churches I know about - maybe. but not otherwise.

I'd be called names in some of them, "prayed over" and possibly humiliated by what was said to me and i don't defend that. but in many if not most I'd just be "tolerated" at least for the occasional visit (they would be hoping I'd "get right" if I came regularly).

I'd probably have to go to Tupelo to get a warm reception though a couple of the local one MIGHT surprise me.

Again, I live in North MS and i find it hard to believe there are MORE conservative places to live.

So while I wouldn't suggest blundering into ANY church (any more than I would suggest blundering into ANY hairdresser) I expect that if you really wanted to find one which accepted you, you could, albeit it might not be doctrinally right where you want them on every point of theology.

Personally, I'm not looking right now.

So really, why defend the faith and the organized church so vigorously here at Susans?

I don't defend the church OR organized faith - I argue for the TRUTH.

The truth only aggravates people when it upsets their stereotypes. When I came out to my friends on a mianstream board at which I post, I faced a (minority) contingent of people there who were convinced I was making a grave mistake - both believers and non-believers, and I debated them FAR more vigorously from the other position.

I argue over my favorite baseball team with the same passion. when someone says "Joe Blow has never hit with runners in scoring position" and I look at the stats and he has hit well in that situation his whole career and is simply not doing so NOW, THIS season - i defend him. As it turns out, I hate Joe Blow - don't want him on my team and think he's a huge burden.
BUT the attacker had his facts wrong and I have a weakness (believe me, I wish I didn't) for correcting a poorly made argument supported with inaccurate facts.

there are a WORLD of things you can attack Christianity, or any other organized religion, about that will not get the faintest peep of disagreement from me on.

I do not attend an organized church, at present I seem unlikely to ever again, and think even the best Christian denomination has considerably more wrong than right. I don't think organized religion should have any more influence or power than - for instance - the Rotary Club.

But I DO think people ought to state things which are true when discussing them, just as i think (and have argued on christian boards back when I posted there) that THEY ought to speak truth about US.

That's why.

  Do you really think we aren't familiar with church people?   To say that we don't know is almost condescending. 

I can only go by the words i see on the screen.

BTW, this pastor was interviewed by Mike Signorile of Sirius XM radio
http://www.signorile.com/2009/09/steven-l-anderson-killing-gays-is-not.html   He says that he hopes Mike gets brain cancer and dies like Ted Kennedy.

You can always find nutters in any belief system. what does anecdotal evidence prove?  We've already established Anderson is a nutter - do I need to say it yet again?

[Miniar]

Just a quick word here.

Yes I know that religion is a touchy subject for the most of us, regardless of which one is ours.
If you feel yourselves get riled up, close the tab or window or just go to a different thread.

[Julie Marie]

Laura, you may know I like to play golf.  And golfers who don't know better tend to give unsolicited advice to their fellow golfers.  THAT is annoying!  And most golfers will tell you that.

If I am discriminated against because I'm trans and I see people who are publicly waging a campaign against trans people and perpetuating the negative stigma, that's not annoying, it's terribly harmful.  Losing your job, losing family and friends and being ostracized from society is far beyond annoying.  It's not that I don't understand these people are brainwashed, it's that they are hurting my ability to live a happy life and as long as they do that I will put up a fight.

The idea that "this is how they think" does not preclude them from being able to understand "leave me the f**k alone!"

When you're giving advice on the golf course, your playing partner might not say anything and that might make you believe it's okay.  But as soon as they turn to you, usually after hitting a bad shot, and tell you to shut up, it's a good idea you do because next time you could end up wearing their driver around your neck.

Julie

[Tammy Hope]

If I am discriminated against because I'm trans and I see people who are publicly waging a campaign against trans people and perpetuating the negative stigma, that's not annoying, it's terribly harmful.  Losing your job, losing family and friends and being ostracized from society is far beyond annoying.  It's not that I don't understand these people are brainwashed, it's that they are hurting my ability to live a happy life and as long as they do that I will put up a fight.

The idea that "this is how they think" does not preclude them from being able to understand "leave me the f**k alone!"
Julie

I don't disagree with any of this nor would I ever suggest that you shouldn't put up a fight. You should, we should.

I would just like to hope we can do it in a better and more principled and more well-informed way than they do.

[MaggieB]

Laura,
I am at a loss with where to begin.  Your post is so long that I can't use the quote system without getting lost so I will try to isolate some salient points that you said and respond.

First, The issue of equal bigotry on the part of the LBGT and Christian communities.
"That said, the animus you refer to is well founded, but the LGBT community (as a whole) is EVERY BIT as bigoted about Christians as Christians are about gays. Now, since they see them as a threat that is understandable, but the fact remains that he LGBT community stereotypes ALL Christians in a characature that applies to a distinct minority, in just the same way as the reverse is true.

I will qualify this with an admission that the big majority of straight people have a latent discomfort level with gays and trans people that transcends whatever religious views they have, but being uncomfortable is not being bigoted."

Just who is trying to take away whose rights?  Christians are.  NOT LBGT people. We are struggling for tolerance and the church as a whole is against that.  Look at the numbers.  The population of Christians vastly outnumbers the number of LBGT people. The Christians claim the high moral ground against us and argue politically now that we should not receive civil rights.  Rights that can save people's lives are being denied and by those who claim to do so on moral grounds.   The pastor in this tread correctly quotes Leviticus that gays should be killed.  It is there.  So for any believer that says the bible is the infallible word of God, passages like this must be in play when civil rights comes up.  Now, to me that is a very one sided case for bigotry.  When we call these people by who they are we are no more bigots than is the victim crying out against his attacker.

The other point you made is:
"Let's be clear here - why is it Christians are wrong to judge all trans people as if they were outrageous drag queens and all gays as if they were hyper-promiscuous drug addicts (and they ARE wrong to do so) but it's okay for a trans or gay person to describe Christians as if ALL believers are hateful bigoted mean-spirited narrow-minded judgmental asses who would round us all up into concentration camps or worse if they could?

It's not ok. and yet FAR too many of the voices i see here seem to make just that assumption."

Where are the LBGT organizations for the repression of Christian rights? Why do we not have a national day of remembrance for Christians killed by LBGT people?  Why do we not have initiatives for the banning of the right to pray or congregate?  How many millions does the Catholic church spend in it's attempt to stop civil rights for LBGT people?  Didn't the Pope himself come out and say that riding the world of homosexuality and transsexuality is more important than the saving of the rain forests?    Hasn't the vast resources of the Mormon church been given in shady and deceptive ways to undermine our rights? What have we done to them?  NOTHING.  We just want to live in peace.   You seem to indicate that our complaints are unfounded but there are countless examples of actions taken by the church throughout history. Read Pam's Blend and you will see a steady stream of reports.

[Suzy]

This thread is sickening.  So much hate coming from both sides.

Kristi

[tekla]

I argue for the TRUTH.

Truth can be proven, superstition can not.

[Julie Marie]

Truth can be proven, superstition can not.

Yeah, but some people don't want to know the truth.  It's better to believe a dark and dangerous evil force is lurking in the shadows waiting to eat your children.   

Not a day goes by that I don't run across an article or two about the "homosexual menace" or some other fictional evil created by fear mongers.  Are we in a modern day holy war?

Hatred?  No.  Anger?  Yes.  But I guess when your house is being bombed, one does tend to get a bit angry.

Julie

[Tammy Hope]

Your post is so long that I can't use the quote system without getting lost

I wish the board wouldn't automaticlly merge posts that long.

Just who is trying to take away whose rights?  Christians are.  NOT LBGT people.

Well, that's a broad statement and not very precise.

For starters, no "rights" are being taken away, on a few points -
first, until recently no gays could have a legally recognized marriage so you can't take away something from someone who doesn't have the thing in the first place.

second, the opportunity to "get married" has always existed and still does and will continue to - what is being discussed on gay marriage is whether or not the state will recognize and grant some privileges associated with being married.

third, the legal privileges associated with having your union recognized can be and have been granted without invoking the term "marriage" in a variety of areas (albeit a notable set of Christians object to this too)

fourth, and the thing that no one wants to acknowledge, is that the legal recognition of your marriage, or mine is NOT a RIGHT

Consider, for instance, the tax code - it's RIFE with discriminatory choices about what to give a tax break for and what to not give a tax break for. Having a taxable status as being "married" is no more a "right" than I have a right to demand a home mortgage deduction while renting.


Does this mean i don't think gays should be able to marry? Frankly, I don't think the government should take notice of marriage either way - I think there should be a legal compact which ANY two people can enter into for ANY reason which specifies they are "partners" in terms of the things we now associate with marriage (child custody, estate purposes, et al)...and anyone who wants to marry privately can do so without seeking a pat on the head from the government.

But in any case, it's not a RIGHT.

Beyond that, In Canada Christians have been fined for expressing an opinion regarding homosexuality that is not approved of, and the complaints were brought by gays...so yes, it can happen. but I would agree that at the present time the LGBT group has the right to feel threatened.

All that said, you didn't address the part you quoted - which is that false assumptions exist on both sides.

The pastor in this tread correctly quotes Leviticus that gays should be killed.  It is there.

so are dozens of other verses no Christian, likely including Anderson, takes seriously.

if he doesn't keep a kosher diet, for instance, he has surrendered the right to cite that verse and be taken seriously.

So for any believer that says the bible is the infallible word of God, passages like this must be in play when civil rights comes up.

Not at all. You can believe the Bible is infallible and be wise enough to know that the expression means that it is infallible in what it claims to say. YES there are some simplistic folks who don't figure out things like context and reach stupid conclusions, but those people, if you'll pardon my saying so, are not a victim of religion but a victim of their own stupidity.

They have wrongheaded views about all sorts of things. The world has stupid people in it  (Anderson is one of them) but because stupid people are Christians (or Democrats, or gays or conservatives, or Mexicans or whatever) does not mean that ALL Christians (or whatever label) are that stupid.

But thinking people - even thinking people who happen to be wrong about me and you - thinking people can STILL read the book with some consideration to context and audience and purpose and NOT conclude they have to go outside the camp and bury their dung as the Book says they should do.

And we both know that.

When we call these people by who they are we are no more bigots than is the victim crying out against his attacker.

So it is your position that EVERY Christian wants to rob you and I and every member of the LGBT community of our rights AND our lives?

you SERIOUSLY are making that claim?

If not all of them share those views (and they don't, if for no other reason that there are denominations with LGBT MINISTERS and there are Christians among the membership HERE) then to make that claim is bigotry against those Christians who do not, in fact, believe those things.

Where are the LBGT organizations for the repression of Christian rights?

don't change the subject hun - you are dodging.

Please honestly face the logical implication of your claims.

Why do we not have a national day of remembrance for Christians killed by LBGT people?

Wait, hold it - the NDoR is held to remember LGBT people killed by Christians?!!?

Who knew?

Didn't the Pope himself come out and say that riding the world of homosexuality and transsexuality is more important than the saving of the rain forests?

Dunno, haven't heard that - let me Google a bit.....

Ah, here it is: "The tropical forests do deserve our protection. But man, as a creature, does not deserve any less."

Yeah. He's wrong. (Not that I'm as busted up as most about the supposedly terrible situation with the rainforest but I'll stay off THAT tangent)

You will note I'm not arguing in this thread that those views are anything BUT wrong.

You seem to indicate that our complaints are unfounded

You seem to have a slight problem with comprehending what I'm actually saying.

------------------------------------------------

Truth can be proven, superstition can not.

By all means, please indicate where in this thread I argued for the truth of any superstition.

Saying "understand what they believe" is not - and I specifically said I was not saying - is NOT saying "what they believe is objectively true"

[tekla]

So, exactly, where are these people wrong in their reading of the Bible, and yours is (now) somehow right?

[juliekins]

For starters, no "rights" are being taken away, on a few points -
first, until recently no gays could have a legally recognized marriage so you can't take away something from someone who doesn't have the thing in the first place.

But once same sex marriage is legalized in a state, there are certain rights (privileges) that go with being married.  And once that legal status is taken away, as what happened with Prop 8 in CA, you lose those rights.  And now Maine is the focus of anti-gay marriage campaigning in hopes of achieving what they did in CA.

second, the opportunity to "get married" has always existed and still does and will continue to - what is being discussed on gay marriage is whether or not the state will recognize and grant some privileges associated with being married.

I'm not sure what you mean by "get married". If the state does not recognize your marriage, you aren't legally married.

third, the legal privileges associated with having your union recognized can be and have been granted without invoking the term "marriage" in a variety of areas (albeit a notable set of Christians object to this too)

There has not been a true "separate but equal" across the board status for same sex marriage in all the states that have approved it.  And, once you cross the state lines, your marriage might not be recognized.

fourth, and the thing that no one wants to acknowledge, is that the legal recognition of your marriage, or mine is NOT a RIGHT[/b

I don't think people are thinking of it that way.  The concept of "right" is based in the belief that if an opposite sex couple can get married and enjoy thousands of privileges, then same sex couples should too.  The right we're fighting for is to be treated fairly under law and not allow majority rule to deny the rights of the minority. Just as no self-appointed group has the right to oppress others, so no majority, even in a democracy, should take away the basic rights and freedoms of a minority group or individual.

We have certain rights granted to us by the Constitution.  Some of these rights are being denied.  All we want is fair and equitable treatment. 

[tekla]

Since a formal, legal recognition of something called marriage is accompanied by a specific set of privileges and responsibilities (including, but not limited to: property rights, the ability to make certain decisions at the end of life, and some legal exemptions) given to those persons, to deny a segment of the population a means to secure those privileges and responsibilities is a violation of the due process clause of the 14th Amendment to the Constitution of the United States which states: No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.

At least 3 State Supreme Courts, Iowa, California and Massachusetts have found exactly that.

[MaggieB]

Laura,
Your arguments about gay rights are similar to those used against same sex marriage and NOM's talking points.   That gay adoption is banned in two states now is an indicator of what is going on. 

My satirical questions were to turn the tables as if Christians were facing the attacks that LBGT people live with daily.  I was not being literal and I thought that was obvious.

My point is that there is a concerted effort to take away basic freedoms and "rights" from LBGT people and incite violence against us by Christians. 

Check out these prominent examples


Pope Benedict XVI   http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1868390,00.html
"Pope Benedict XVI has said that saving humanity from transsexual behavior is just as important as saving the rainforest from destruction."
also
"the Vatican has announced its opposition to a United Nations proposal to protect gays from being criminalized and punished by governments for their orientation"

Rev. Wiley Drake
Openly prays to God to kill Obama and quotes Psalm 109 as his reason. He states that Southern Baptists know about this practice of "Imprecatory Prayers" He says Dr. Tiller's death was an answer to his prayer.  (Not LBGT but it demonstrates the mindset that one can have God kill someone as an answer to prayer.)


Methodist Judicial Council To Rule On The Sin of ->-bleeped-<-
http://www.transadvocate.com/methodist-judicial-council-to-rule-on-the-sin-of-->-bleeped-<-.htm

Pat Robertson spouting off about Barack Obama's announcement of a "Presidential Memorandum on Federal Benefits and Non-Discrimination" asked "someone's proud to be transgendered?"

"I am aware that Rev Robertson helped start and the American Center for Law and Justice, (http://www.aclj.org/) the leadership of the Christian Coalition. They have been known to be 'transphobic' and 'honophobic'. The words of Jay Sekulow, 'Chief Justice' of the ACLJ have been pointed out to me again where it was stated regarding the Gardiner decision in Kansas: "this is the first shot across the bow in the war against the scourge known as transsexuality."
http://www.intersexualite.org/PatRobertson.html

Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell blame gays and lesbians among others for God's allowing 9/11 to happen.
Falwell and Robertson on The 700 Club after 9/11
Video on Youtube

Pat Robertson says God allowed Katrina because of abortion. Quotes Leviticus.
Katrina = God's Wrath   
Video on Youtube

Rev. John Hagee says Katrina happened because Gays were going to hold a rally in New Orleans.
http://thinkprogress.org/2008/04/23/hagee-katrina-mccain/

Church Rejects Transsexual's Care
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/14/AR2006041401408.html

These are just a few examples of the attacks on the LBGT community by Christians.  They serve to incite violence against us even by non church goers because they claim to have the moral high ground.

Actually, I don't really know what your point is in participating in this thread.  The subject is to point out another example the rising danger posed by the Christian community against LBGT people.  You seem to want to minimize this and say that it is just a tiny fraction of real believers.   It seems that your point is that we shouldn't worry or be aware that these things are happening from elements in the Christian community. 

I have been affected by them here in California.  My marriage was questioned because of Prop 8.  We had to spend two weeks arguing with the insurance company that our 22 year marriage was legal so I could be covered again.  Once Prop 8 was law, they wanted to drop me.   Prop 8 would not have passed without the millions given by the Mormons and Catholic churches.   

What is being set up here in the US is a climate where the conservatives are being whipped up into thinking we are evil sinners who are endangering everyone.  Now that can only give rise to more hate crimes against us.  Take note of the current trend of ARMED protestors in town meetings.  If that isn't a sign of impending violence, what is? 

We need to know what is being said and try to expose it not minimize it like you seem to want.  Someday, even you may be one of the victims. 

Maggie

[tekla]

The constant argument that 'oh that's just a fringe few, not the majority' always reminds me of how the Hell's Angels protest getting tagged as a criminal organization.  "Oh no, we're just a bunch of guys who love motorcycles" (who also share lengthy criminal records and participate together in ongoing criminal activities)

I think that hate coming from the Christian Community is widespread enough, and constant enough (and hardly ever denounced by the 'mainstream' churches) that its completely fair to characterize it as part and parcel of the Xian belief system at this point.

[Julie Marie]

What is important is to understand that, until you are out, open and/or living full time, you will never fully realize how words like the ones the Arizona pastor said ripple through society and eventually make their way into affecting your life.

Before I was out, I was living what everyone would have seen as a normal male life, married, kids, house in the suburbs, worked in construction, etc, some even called me macho.  I was completely ignorant about what was happening in the LGBT world outside the fact that I knew trans people were stigmatized and it was wrong. 

But the environment 'out' LGBT people face every day had no effect on me at all.  It wasn't even on my radar screen because I really had no LGBT friends.  I had met a few TGs but we never became friends.  So when some hate monger spewed out his vitriol, I would see him as a nut and hope that his words don't compel some other nut to become violent.  End of story.

Now, that's all changed.  I watched as family, lifelong friends, bosses & co-workers did a total 180 on me when they found out I was trans.  And when I went searching for why, all the roads led to religious sources as the beginning of this intolerance.

When I realized that Catholics, the people I grew up with, went to church with, played with, lived with, had an inordinate percentage of their congregation who were anti-LGBT, I was pretty hurt.  How could they be that way when we were all taught to love and respect God's creations?  It was a surprise because I was forced to open my eyes when I was made an outcast.

And, from all my years being raised in a Catholic environment (add Chicago south side Irish to that), I knew when the Pope spoke, it was the same as if God spoke.  So when I hear the Pope take a position against LGBT people, I know millions of Catholics will see that as the word of God and do the same.  It may only be words but to the millions of Catholics around the world, it's the word of God and cannot be challenged.

That is some pretty powerful stuff.  And if we ever expect things to change for the better for us, we need to educate the Catholic church, and other organized religions, that we are not who they portray us to be.  That is if we don't want their continued opposition to denying us the same rights and privileges they have.

Or maybe we should just say if a tax exempt organization becomes involved in the political process, they lose their tax exempt status.  Separation of church and state.

I wonder what the impact of a law like that would be?

Julie