Male privileges lost

[Little Dragon]

I really don't think when a man buys a lady a drink, that is a display of his own wealthiness.. when it is a guy buying a round of drinks for everyone then yes I'd agree But when it is specifically for a single lady, I've always thought of that to be more of an act of chivalry - mannerisms that swoon and charm her, make her feel special, a display of manliness so that he could attract a female..

Let me put this into a contemporary example.. Before I discovered my gender identity being female, I used to have a girlfriend and we were in a bar one time and I was expected to purchase her a drink solely because she was a female and I was a male (and no, she doesn't buy the next round, she isnt supposed to). In the UK at least, society pressures all men into this ritual that a man must buy a girl he is with a drink if he is to display himself to be a decent person; since not doing this is considered to be rude. I'd consider this to be a privilege for a female.. Reading what you said makes me wonder if its a burdersome privilege for a male.. Or perhaps it is a privilege for both sexes, or maybe I'm just looking into this too much..

Me being MtF must have simply swapped my role in this example of gender privilege; the topic of this thread is "Male privileges lost" however, I now think that all male privileges lost will become female privileges gained. (Let's not start listing gender stereotypes in order to contredict the bolded statement, now! )

I might be a woman now, but I can still think about stuff and question why

[kyril]

I really don't think when a man buys a lady a drink, that is a display of his own wealthiness.. when it is a guy buying a round of drinks for everyone then yes I'd agree But when it is specifically for a single lady, I've always thought of that to be more of an act of chivalry - mannerisms that swoon and charm her, make her feel special, a display of manliness so that he could attract a female..

That's exactly what it is - but it's a display of manliness in the form of money. Opening a door for a woman is similarly a symbolic display of manliness in the form of strength. Neither of those is necessarily a privilege in itself, but they're both displays of privilege.

Both of these displays are traditionally frowned upon coming from (people who are perceived to be) women, because they're seen as emasculating - the woman is symbolically asserting herself to be financially or physically equal to a man. This has been improving somewhat in my lifetime, but there are still a large number of men who are visibly uncomfortable with people they perceive as female buying them stuff.

This translates into male privilege because men who perceive themselves as obligated to be financially-dominant see themselves (and thus other men) as requiring better, more reliable jobs and better pay than women, whose income is widely regarded as discretionary and supplemental. And this, along with the overall lower value assigned to 'women's work', translates into significant overall financial disadvantages for households headed by women, and a disproportionate level of financial dependence for women in households headed by men.

[K8]

I was taught by my grandmother to be chivalrous – to open doors for women, to stand when a woman approached, to walk on the curb side when walking with a woman, etc.  These are all nice rituals, but the underlying source is the idea that women are weak and need to be protected.  Historically, it hasn't been that long in western civilization since women were not allowed to own property and must live with a husband or father or brother (to protect them – regardless of the abuse they might suffer at his hands – abuse for which there was no legal recourse).  We've come a long way, but the remnants of that pervade our customs.

As male, I was expected to be stronger than a woman and to have the money to provide for a woman.  Some of you may not see those expectations as privilege, but they come from the male privilege inherent in our culture.

I am now a strong, independent woman.  If the surgery were possible then, two hundred years ago I would have had to go live with my brother once I became legally female, despite the fact that I have property and my own money.

- Kate

[tswoman]

I have not lost any privilledges. Full stop. I do not believe in hole male priviledge myth in Western culture. In Eastern cultures it really exists.  I may even state that we would need stronger male/father-right movement in the Western world.

[Torn1990]

When it comes to having your work environment effected i think it's important to defend yourself and force that respect back. Talking to men one on one and being very point blank with who you are and your ideas will definitely give them reason to respect you. Of course it's easier if men are willing to understand, but there comes a time where stepping up will be required.
I believe men have a lot of disrespect for the transcommunity because of how we confuse their sexual wiring. Their tunnels don't have windows or doors and they fill it with things they can understand. When we enter their narrow little tunnel minds, the emergency exits are too difficult to find in the dark, which is when the defense mechanisms; eh, violent sneers/remarks or physical violence errupts.
If you make it clear to them you have no devious intentions/motives and you're just being yourself, i believe this is the key to calming the tension. SO i don't think we lose privelages as much as a disguise is covering them while people adjust, we may just have to be clever about uncovering that disguise so people realize we're the exact same person. 

[Little Dragon]

This translates into male privilege because men who perceive themselves as obligated to be financially-dominant see themselves (and thus other men) as requiring better, more reliable jobs and better pay than women, whose income is widely regarded as discretionary and supplemental. And this, along with the overall lower value assigned to 'women's work', translates into significant overall financial disadvantages for households headed by women, and a disproportionate level of financial dependence for women in households headed by men.

Perhaps I don't understand the word privilege then, since I always associate the word with benefits T_T So you're talking about "rituals imposed on males by society" ?

I kinda like being considered "weak" because it feels girly Back to when I had a girlfriend, I always questioned things "why do I have to buy her a drink?" and "why do I sleep on the floor?" I realise nowadays that I never felt it in me to be manly or to assume the male role in that relationship, I was so uncomfortable with the relationship and I felt trapped because manly rituals were being imposed on me and I was expected to conform to them.
(model answer for those of you who are looking for things to say to your counsellors )

Now I can say that I haven't lost any male privileges, because I never gained them in the first place

Thank you for having this enriching discussion with me ^_^

[Little Dragon]

Chivalry is sexism, plain and simple.
Now, if men acted chivalrously towards other men, as well as woman, there would be nothing wrong with it.
But when the behaviour is directed specifically at women, it is sexism.
Ask yourself this: who created chivalry and who enforced the idea that women should enjoy it?
That's right, men did. Women were never consulted. We were simply expected to capitulate and agree that it was wonderful that men did these things for us.

Hon, you sound like an angry feminist, parading your outrage at things you percieve to be sexism XD You aren't on topic and you're simply ranting.

You might not be charmed by chivalrous acts, but you cannot possibly speak for all of us - I happen to like polite men being considerate.

[Torn1990]

Now I can say that I haven't lost any male privileges, because I never gained them in the first place

Thank you for having this enriching discussion with me ^_^

Very true with me : ). But I don't think women are necessarily weak. I think the weakness we understand is more form the fragility to criticism and emotions.  I know what you're saying though! but that is also a social mechanism. Women are kick ass. If girls can't lift up a box i kind of just find it funny inside but ultimately it's irking because to me it definitely seems like they're just getting male attention that way!
Plus, i've spotted many of those girls lifting quite independently when no one else is around. Just a secret, girls are fine.

Chivalry is sexism, plain and simple.
Now, if men acted chivalrously towards other men, as well as woman, there would be nothing wrong with it.

I definitely agree with this! BUt I think chivalry is also coming from men attempting to charm certain women they like, which is natural and i think differintiates. Flirting is a varied example and is something we all do in our daily lives. When it comes to the traditional aspect of it, this is true..Otherwise, it's just a tactic to show their admiratioin of a womens beauty. ADMIRATION. rofl..I mean, "respect" of her beauty to gain her trust(subjective beauty). Men historically are not trustworthy in my opinion. I think all men need to gain a women's trust and they use chivalry todo that. Ofcourse if we lived in an ideal world, this wouldn't be true.. but people need to be warmed up by the dominant male, otherwise I myself am quite speculative of someones motives as well. It shows they are willing to step down from their latters and let you go up the latter first. This really depends on the people though! But I think some traditions need to be used in order for dominant men to gain a woman's trust. Otherwise, they're modernly known as douche bags, opposed to the historical extreme. And the next step above that is creepy. Men don't want to be douche bags.. They wont get any.

[Little Dragon]

So the fact that your chances of being sexually abused as child were drastically reduced (due to being a male), doesn't seem like a privilege to you?
Seems like a pretty massive privilege to me.

This again? I've seen you use these gender stereotypes as if they were Gospel.. I don't believe your opinions and statistics are on the subject of this thread

That's an ad hominem attack, with no relevance to this discussion.
I am an angry feminist. There isn't anything wrong with that. Women have a right to be feminists and they have a right to be angry. Neither should be scorned or derided.

Its not ad hominem, because I wasn#t making an argument XD ad hominems only work when "You are A, therefore you are wrong", I was stating my opinion of you. You admit that you are as the statement says, anyway.. You have a right to be angry, but you don't have the right to troll forums.

For the sake of this thread, I'm going to stop this flaming war. I shant entertain you.

[K8]

OK everyone, take a deep breath, step back from the thread, and review rules 10 and 15 (no flaming or bashing, discussions should be limited to the topic without personal attacks).

- Kate

[FairyGirl]

I was a sexually abused child, so for me at least the probability of rape equaled 100%. I do think everyone should practice politeness and good manners towards either sex, but it doesn't bother me when men are polite to me. Honestly I feel much more privileged now, and see my female traits as strengths rather than weaknesses. Male privilege to me was way overrated. Maybe I just never experienced enough of it to matter that much.

[FairyGirl]

I stand by my statement that I never experienced it enough to make it's absence matter that much. 

[kyril]

This translates into male privilege because men who perceive themselves as obligated to be financially-dominant see themselves (and thus other men) as requiring better, more reliable jobs and better pay than women, whose income is widely regarded as discretionary and supplemental. And this, along with the overall lower value assigned to 'women's work', translates into significant overall financial disadvantages for households headed by women, and a disproportionate level of financial dependence for women in households headed by men.

Perhaps I don't understand the word privilege then, since I always associate the word with benefits T_T So you're talking about "rituals imposed on males by society" ?

The point is that since men are disproportionately responsible for hiring, firing, and salary decisions, and since men view their own and other men's income as necessary while they see women's income as optional, they tend to make employment decisions that protect or increase their male employees' earning power, sometimes at the expense of their female employees.

20+ years ago it was actually normal to state this sort of thing explicitly ("He needs the raise more than you do, darling, he has a family to support!" said without regard to the woman's family status, or for that matter the man's). Now that sort of explicit statement is grounds for a discrimination lawsuit, but the discrimination still happens, it's just harder to document.

It should be reasonably obvious how higher pay and more reliable employment translate to privilege. Because women make less money and can't count on their jobs as much, single mothers and lesbians are more likely to live in poverty, less likely to own homes, more likely to be in debt, and so on. In addition, straight women who are married and make significantly less than their husbands have much more financial difficulty leaving the relationship; this has profound effects in cases of abuse.

[glendagladwitch]

Hon, you sound like an angry feminist, parading your outrage at things you percieve to be sexism XD You aren't on topic and you're simply ranting.

You might not be charmed by chivalrous acts, but you cannot possibly speak for all of us - I happen to like polite men being considerate.

Cate's just ahead of the curve. You'll get there too.

[Little Dragon]

It should be reasonably obvious how higher pay and more reliable employment translate to privilege.

I'm currently looking for work and none of the jobs I've seen say anything like "Annual salary: £X0,000, but if you are a woman, that'll be significantly less".. I don't think I'll get a highly paid job as a man nor a woman, I shall have to start low pay like everybody else does :\ I really can't make an opinion on this because I just don't know how the reality is :/

If there are employers who actually DO pay their women workforce less than men for the exact same job then that's outrageous.. Let's get back on topic, however

Does qualifying for female-only car insurance count as a female privilege?

[kyril]

It's been a couple decades since it was socially acceptable to state that sort of discrimination explicitly, but it still happens, just more quietly.

It's more complicated than this, though:

If there are employers who actually DO pay their women workforce less than men for the exact same job then that's outrageous.

This does happen (Google Lilly Ledbetter). But it's more common to simply offer higher-paying jobs to men to begin with and to promote men preferentially into supervisory roles. Again, all based on the assumption that men ought to be paying for stuff, and that women's income isn't important.

The lower you are on the income/skill/experience ladder, the less obvious this effect is. The oft-referenced "glass ceiling" is that place in the organizational structure where it becomes truly undeniable. For some categories of employees, like retail workers at certain big box stores, the "glass ceiling" can appear as early as the division between floor managers (majority female minorities) and office managers (majority white males, even though they come from the ranks of floor managers). On the other hand, on Wall Street, some high-power female executives might not bump the glass ceiling until they become candidates for CEO positions.

[K8]

In the US, the average woman earns about 80% of the wage the average man earns.  (This may have shifted slightly but only slightly during the current recession/depression/economic downturn, when more men have lost jobs than women.)  There are many theories of why this is so, but the disparity holds even when all factors other than gender are accounted for.

I'm not sure of the current status of the suit, but Wal-Mart is/was sued for sex discrimination because it paid women less than men and promoted less-qualified men over more-qualified women.  This was a big deal because of the size of Wal-Mart.  The company fought the suit tooth and nail, but either is losing or has finally decided to settle.  Considering the resources Wal-Mart has at its disposal, a settlement is as good as an admission of guilt.  Whether the culture in the company changes remains to be seen.

- Kate

[glendagladwitch]

There's a nice chart out there at the infoplease website and I would give you a link to it, but I'm not privileged to post links.  So google "wage gap gender race chart" and see that white women currently earn less than 75% as much as white men, and that hispanic women earn bout half as much.  It is for US census data, so it is not reporting world wide.  It's not clear to me whether they only compared women and men in the same occupations.  But they go on to say "The wage gap between women and men cuts across a wide spectrum of occupations. The Bureau of Labor Statistics reported that in 2007 female financial advisors earned 53.7% of the median weekly wages of male financial advisors, and women in sales occupations earned just 64.8% of men's wages in equivalent positions."  So there is some support for the claim that women doing the same jobs as men make less money than men.

[Little Dragon]

It's been a couple decades since it was socially acceptable to state that sort of discrimination explicitly, but it still happens, just more quietly.

Wait, I've just remembered that we've had a female prime minister, here in the uk Shes the only female I can ever recall being in charge of anything. I don't think theirs a single bank headed by a female :\ Though, the business industry is probably male dominated because you have to be fiercely aggressive in that industry.. something us ladies cannot cope with T_T

I think regular top-end jobs like Surgeons and Judges have loads of girls tho

The more I think about this, the more I feel kind of oppressed for being a girl T_T

[Little Dragon]

Anywaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy....

I just thought of another thing that might be relevent to this topic

You know how for jobs that require a fitness examination? And women's criteria are always lower than mens? Does that count as a female privilege?

For example, men would have to run 1000m in 2 minutes whereas women would only have to run 800m to pass some fitness test for working as a police officer.. I'm unsure about the exact figures, but I do hear that women don't have to be strong or as fast to get the same job.. this initially sounds beneficial for women because they dont have to work as hard Though by the way this topics been going, I'm assuming that this is a privilege for men for being stronger and faster?

I don't wanna start an argument, though I'm keen to know what you think of this, ƃuıxǝʌ To me, this sounds like a beneficial admission of women not being as strong, fast or as capable as men. Is this outragous to you or not?