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a thought on passing

Started by jesse, April 29, 2010, 04:18:23 AM

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rejennyrated

Quote from: Rhalkos on May 01, 2010, 02:43:33 AM
Get DD boobs.
No one will ever look at your face or listen to your voice.  ;D
Done that - Mine are F - trouble is it does get tiresome always wanting to say to men "I think you'll find I'm a foot taller than that!"
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Rock_chick

Quote from: rejennyrated on May 01, 2010, 04:42:29 AM
Done that - Mine are F - trouble is it does get tiresome always wanting to say to men "I think you'll find I'm a foot taller than that!"

carry an umbrella or something similar so you can wack them under the chin.

"eyes up man...and straighten that back...slouching is so unbecoming."
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Asfsd4214

My opinion on passing.

1. Face (and body shape to a large degree)
2. Voice

Voice being only ever so slightly behind 1.

And uhh, for the most part that's it. There's other stuff that helps, but it pretty much boils down to just that.

I don't believe in any of this 'attitude' and 'mannerisms' stuff. Everyone else is free of course to believe whatever they like, but in my opinion, if you sound male (which is like 90% resonance and 10% pitch as far as importance), you'll be read as male, pretty much no matter how you look.


The way I see it, it kinda works out like this.

If a male suddenly woke up looking like Jennifer Aniston, all the masculine attitude and voice mannerisms and 'way of walking' in the WORLD isn't going to get them read as male.

::)
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Autumn

Quote from: Chrissty on April 30, 2010, 05:59:49 AM
...just let's not forget the free facial feminsing effect of "a smile"  ;D ;D ;D

This is actually one of the absolute most important things you can do to pass. Once I moved back home from living life across the country for a half a year, and broke out of my shell, I started practicing smiling and I started passing more often (having lived my teenage years being accidentally clocked as a girl on and off.) Even several months into HRT, living full time as a girl, I've trained myself to default my facial muscles into a partial smile because it SERIOUSLY pumps your cheeks up and out. This is why people say women are beautiful when they smile - the full cheeks are what make girls look female.

Quote from: Megan on April 30, 2010, 02:55:10 PM
1. Voice
2. Face, but almost as equal as the voice
3. Hips larger than shoulders
4. Proportional body shapes for a typical female
5. Long hair, fashion, mannerisms

In that order

I don't believe in auras/behavior that much, since I can pretend I am a woman so much till my heart screams it but the truth is people will read me as a male. Masculine women are still read as women, but read as lesbians, still their mannerisms are male and yet most people read them as a female because they are GG. It's not their aura.

I can't possibly disagree with you more. You're too fixated on feminine perfection.

When I first started, people told me things like "people see through to the real you on the inside." And I was like, "Bull->-bleeped-<-, they're stupid and blind, I don't look anything like a girl." That's certainly what my family and friends told me in the beginning...

The thing is, your 'aura' IS how you present yourself. It's in the words you use. Where and how you stand, how you move your body, or don't move it, your inflection, your physical reactions to the other person, all of that, your clothes, and more come together to be your presence, and that's the package that has to pass.

You do not need breasts, or hips, or curves, to pass as a woman. Believe me, I've done it plenty. I answered the door once without a shirt on and completely freaked the random guy out because he thought I was a topless chick, even though I hadn't started breast growth. And because of a birth defect with my spine, I wouldn't have hips or curves even if I were born with a vagina. And even with how much I hate my body, everyone wants a piece of it or tells me how great I look, because I'm not fat. If you're thin or even average, people are going to find you more attractive and acceptable just because you're more appealing than others.

To me:

Your height is a multiplier on all other factors, which cannot be changed. If you are 5'3, like I am, it's very easy to pass. If you are 6', it's hard. If you are average female height or less for your area, you get an automatic easy ride. There are very tall naturally born women, but you *know* they hear ->-bleeped-<- jokes behind their backs more than once in their life. The plight of being a tall woman in our society is an issue in and of itself.


You need to not have a shadow, because that is a key indicator for people regardless of any other circumstances. Some stubble will not actually make much of a difference, as some women, especially non-whites, will have upper lip hair - but if it's everywhere, you're running a big risk of being outed. A large adam's apple likewise will give you away immediately. Women DO have cartilage growths, and some women do have small adam's apples, so do not obsess over ones that are not prominent, but some are obviously male.

Your mannerisms, walk, what you say, how you say it, and so on. If you are naturally dainty and have an expressive personality - and I mean genuine behavior, not flamboyance, then you will pass easier as a female. The more I accidentally passed, the more confidence I had in expressing myself the way I really wanted to, which in turn made me pass more and so on. Also, when you get to the point of confidently dressing female, your clothing helps, too. I started my transition by wearing womens slacks/jeans with button down blouses and T shirts. I picked up tank tops eventually. A button down shirt throws some ambiguity out there, but it was my safety net in case I didn't pass - whereas if you're wearing an unquestionably female top like a lacy cami, it might help push you into the female range, or it might bomb horribly if you get clocked.*

A clearly male voice is a dealbreaker once you open your mouth, but if you stop to listen, you may be surprised at how deep a lot of womens' voices are. You can always cough a lot and blow your nose and pretend you've got a horrible cold or allergies in a pinch.


*Not to say that all women have a certain personality type, but, it's the whole package that makes transition work or not work. If you have a tomboy personality, and a buzzed head, and wear baggy clothes, then until your face grows female cheeks, you'll look like a guy, and then you'll be clocked as a dyke. But GG (or GM) have the confidence to be different, if they are different.

I'm going to just put out there the idea that if you go into a place, presenting clearly female and wearing the right clothes (not big shoulderpads or ruffles if you have big shoulders, an A line skirt instead of a pencil skirt, using a belt/empire waist properly, wearing the proper shoes for your outfit, and in general dressing age appropriate; ie blending in) and none of your features are particularly special, you're going to pass just fine. Now if you go in and you are timid, or shy, or dressed inappropriately for the place or your age, or other factors that make people scrutinize you and focus on you; you leave them wondering and they start looking at every little clue to find an answer, then you're going to have a worse time.

I'd say Jesse's meth whores pass as women more from the absence of male traits.
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rejennyrated

Thank you Autumn - for saying so eloquently what I wanted to say but didn't.

And Megan - Even if I discount my openly transgender childhood entirely I've been at this game for about 30+ years I do KNOW what works and what doesn't from decades of experience of living working and being accepted as a woman, whereas you, with all respect still have a considerable learning curve to go up.

Now you are naturally quite at liberty to ignore those of us who have been at this for so many years. Maybe you think we are all deluding ourselves and we are obvious as heck - men in dresses or whatever, and if that was your opinion then you would of course be entirely entitled to it. I wouldn't even bother to argue, but I really and honestly don't think we are. Most of us have got where we got to by years of painful trial and error. All we want to do here is help you short circuit that learning process so that you don't have to repeat it.

Yes as it happens I do have big boobs and a good voice. Yes my face is at very least androgynous - at any rate it isn't downright male. But trust me I have seen people who are WAY better looking than me with way better figures fail miserably to pass, and yet I manage it pretty much entirely. So I'm sorry but from my experience you really are somewhat mistaken on this, and for your own sake I feel that you need to re-assess your view of this whole thing or you may end up bitterly disappointed.

This isn't meant to be unkind or any sort of cirticism - we are all in entitled to an opinion, and we all have to learn as we go along and there is always a possibility that those of us who have done 10, 20 and 30 years are wrong... but I really think it is more likely that we are right.
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LordKAT

You can cover a sort of deep voice by claiming to have been a long time smoker also.
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Autumn

"I've been so much happier now that I'm on the patch!*"

*estrogen


Actually, back in late December, I'd had a respiratory infection for over a month and was visiting a friend. Her roommate had only met me while I was sick and said "Autumn, I just love your voice. I don't know if you used to smoke, or be a man, or whatever, but it's great. You're like doctor girlfriend."

I glared at him and said it was the cold. I couldn't help but laugh then, and laugh now.
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Kay Henderson

Quote from: Autumn on May 01, 2010, 06:28:18 AM
I'm going to just put out there the idea that if you go into a place, presenting clearly female and wearing the right clothes (not big shoulderpads or ruffles if you have big shoulders, an A line skirt instead of a pencil skirt, using a belt/empire waist properly, wearing the proper shoes for your outfit, and in general dressing age appropriate; ie blending in) and none of your features are particularly special, you're going to pass just fine.

Autumn, I think you're absolutely right on that point.

At over six feet and more than 200 pounds, I never would have expected to pass.  But, by following the same common sense rules you've outlined, I've never had the slightest problem.  I don't consider myself to be particularly "feminine", but I know people who are not aware that I'm transgender.
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Arch

Quote from: LordKAT on April 29, 2010, 10:30:25 AM
I think face means much more than most people let on. Everyone checks out the face even if it is only for a few seconds. I think it has to do with bone structure of the face. Unfortunately, that is hard or impossible to change for FTM.

Unless you get FMS...but a deep voice goes a long way toward negating delicate facial features. That's why I don't understand a few MTFs that I've met who could "pass" if only they would work on their voices. They have the clothes, the makeup, the hair, the mannerisms...and they speak in their normal "male" voices and complain that nobody sees them as women. I know it sucks; we should be accepted no matter what. But at least try.

Can even a meth addict who has wasted away have a few somatic cues besides face and voice that add up to "female" in the eye of the beholder?
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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LordKAT

Quote from: Arch on May 01, 2010, 02:05:05 PM
Unless you get FMS...but a deep voice goes a long way toward negating delicate facial features. That's why I don't understand a few MTFs that I've met who could "pass" if only they would work on their voices. They have the clothes, the makeup, the hair, the mannerisms...and they speak in their normal "male" voices and complain that nobody sees them as women. I know it sucks; we should be accepted no matter what. But at least try.

Can even a meth addict who has wasted away have a few somatic cues besides face and voice that add up to "female" in the eye of the beholder?

I'll agree that voice can be a clincher or out you, especially if it is far to the male or female end. The other nuances are used more when face or voice are not clear which is why we need to understand and use that more than the cis people do.
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Arch

Quote from: Ashley4214 on May 01, 2010, 06:17:40 AMI don't believe in any of this 'attitude' and 'mannerisms' stuff. Everyone else is free of course to believe whatever they like, but in my opinion, if you sound male (which is like 90% resonance and 10% pitch as far as importance), you'll be read as male, pretty much no matter how you look.

I agree that a male voice is almost always going to get you read as male, at least by strangers. But that doesn't mean that other factors don't exist.

I have a friend who is so pretty and feminine. When I first met her, she had a nice female voice, a lovely face, someone to help her with her makeup and clothes...but she was unsure of herself. She was self-conscious. And she was getting clocked very frequently. Six months later, she looks the same except that her hair is longer and she does her own makeup and clothes. But she's comfortable and confident in her femaleness. She hardly gets clocked at all.

Decades before I transitioned, I had long hair and fairly delicate facial features, and of course the chest. I was trying hard to fit in, be a girl. But I still had a secret boy life in my head, and I used to have a lot of very masculine mannerisms. End result: sometimes I still spooked women in the ladies' restroom. It didn't happen to anyone else I knew. (Not to mention that some people were still convinced that I was a lesbian.) If it wasn't body language and attitude, I don't know what it was. I would be curious to hear your take on it.
"The hammer is my penis." --Captain Hammer

"When all you have is a hammer . . ." --Anonymous carpenter
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GothTranzboi

Today I did an experiment. If I walk around not saying anything with sunglasses on, I pass way more as male. But who wants to do that all the time right? I think its the brow ridge, and voice really. Which facail bones are difficult to alter. I've heard of facial structure changing on T. Does HR for Trans women do anything?
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barbie

It would be impossible for me to pass 100% even if I would undergo HRT and SRS. Many people recognize me as woman when they see my body whether I have boobs or not, but face and voice make it clear that I am a biological man. While returning home from Japan 2 days ago, in the airplane, the attendant called me as sir without hesitation after hearing my voice.

I also see contrasts between my first son and little daughter. A funny thing was that, when my friend had his first daughter and I had my first son about 13 years ago. many people used to recognize my first son as a girl while his daughter as a boy. Nevertheless, to my eyes, there are clear differences in my son and daughter. For example, my daughter has far longer eyelashes than my son, although my son also has relatively longer eyelashes. In personality, my daughter is more aggressive than my son.

Smiling can make me look more feminine. People used to say that I smile like a woman.

https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?action=mgallery;sa=item;id=2078

And, wearing lipstick helps me pass as a woman, as I did not underwent HRT. Long hair does not matter so much, as nowadays many men also very long hair. But, I will have longer hair again, reaching to my waist.

Barbie~~
Just do it.
  • skype:barbie?call
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jesse

thanks everybody for your imput it gives me stuff to think about lol
jessica
like a knife that cuts you the wound heals but them scars those scars remain
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kyril

Quote from: Arch on May 01, 2010, 02:19:07 PM
Decades before I transitioned, I had long hair and fairly delicate facial features, and of course the chest. I was trying hard to fit in, be a girl. But I still had a secret boy life in my head, and I used to have a lot of very masculine mannerisms. End result: sometimes I still spooked women in the ladies' restroom. It didn't happen to anyone else I knew. (Not to mention that some people were still convinced that I was a lesbian.) If it wasn't body language and attitude, I don't know what it was. I would be curious to hear your take on it.
Me too. Long hair, androgynous socially-acceptable-for-women clothes, and I've often had awkward moments in the restroom/locker rooms because women took me for male out of the corner of their eye.

And it's not just vulnerable situations either. When I try to present as female in groups of women, I'm pretty much universally turned into a social outcast. I'm neither liked nor trusted. That's improved markedly since I stopped pretending to be one of them - for the first time in my life, women have started to be friendly with me. Even strangers.

Post Merge: May 04, 2010, 03:28:45 AM

Quote from: GothTranzboi on May 01, 2010, 03:08:29 PM
Today I did an experiment. If I walk around not saying anything with sunglasses on, I pass way more as male. But who wants to do that all the time right? I think its the brow ridge, and voice really. Which facail bones are difficult to alter. I've heard of facial structure changing on T.
For us, what changes most is facial musculature and fat distribution. We'll probably never have very wide square jaws because the jaw is bone, but lots of guys have narrower jaws. We do get an increase in jaw definition/reduction in puffiness from the fat redistribution, and the musculature changes can give us a more square look. And facial hair or shadow pretty much overrides most facial shape cues, which is why electrolysis/laser is trans women's usual first step.


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GothTranzboi

ah ok. Thank you for clarifing that for me. As for facial hair...I already deal with that, but what used to be something had to shave off is something I can enjoy now lol.
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FairyGirl

Quote from: Autumn on May 01, 2010, 06:28:18 AMI'm going to just put out there the idea that if you go into a place, presenting clearly female and wearing the right clothes (not big shoulderpads or ruffles if you have big shoulders, an A line skirt instead of a pencil skirt, using a belt/empire waist properly, wearing the proper shoes for your outfit, and in general dressing age appropriate; ie blending in) and none of your features are particularly special, you're going to pass just fine. Now if you go in and you are timid, or shy, or dressed inappropriately for the place or your age, or other factors that make people scrutinize you and focus on you; you leave them wondering and they start looking at every little clue to find an answer, then you're going to have a worse time.

I'd say Jesse's meth whores pass as women more from the absence of male traits.

I totally agree with this assessment. After a while you don't think or worry about "passing" anymore, it seems to eventually become a non-issue. While my long hair and breasts (as small as they are) may play a part in the fact that I don't have any issues in this regard, as I said I don't worry about it anymore either. I have no problems carrying on conversations with perfect strangers in the ladies room, or walking past a group of high school girls in the mall. I hold my head high, look people squarely in the eye, and smile. :)

Another thing that helps- When walking, pretend you have a string tied to the top of your head and it's tugging you slightly upwards. Back straight, shoulders down and back, tummy in and up, head held high and own the ground you're standing (or sitting) on. When you know who you are on the inside and are confident and rock-solid in that, then who you are on the outside will naturally follow, and you'll stop worrying (or caring) about "passing".
Girls rule, boys drool.
If I keep a green bough in my heart, then the singing bird will come.
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jesse

actually i think i have to agree with autumns assesment perhaps the reason the person in my initial post passes is the complete absence of any male gender marker so by default the observer assigns the female gender. I wonder why that is though since it would have to be universal in the way that everyone does the same thing. is it simply erroring in favor of the obvious or is something more because even females will do that and 99 percent of the time it is a correct call i would think. So in the absence of any male markers such as voice facial structure actions or stance then everyone should pass as female if this thought pattern is continued out to its conclusion
such fun lol
jessica
like a knife that cuts you the wound heals but them scars those scars remain
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LordKAT

I learned  dogs to be male and cats to be female. I think that way even now. I wonder if some people default people to one or the other not necessarily female. I also wonder if people default people to their own sex or the opposite or if it matters.
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kyril

Well, female is sort of the default state of humans. If you imagine someone who's truly physically androgynous, with neither male nor female secondary sex characteristics or pubertal changes - a prepubescent child, essentially, but grown to adult size - that person would be read as female unless sie made an effort to be read as male, as young boys do by conforming to male social norms of dress and appearance.

The default characteristics of voice, skin, face shape, and most relevant bone structures other than the hips are female-type. Testosterone modifies them to male-type, which is why FTMs look like young boys and get such good results (gaining masculine characteristics) from T, and why MTFs often perceive their transitions largely as reversing the effects of puberty.


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