a thought on passing

[jesse]

Ive been thinking a lot lately about all the threads I see about passing, or the effects of HR,. As some of you know, I work in law enforcement. I encounter people everyday a lot of them in-fact. The variety of women I see makes me wonder at times, why we are so hard on ourselves. Take for instance a female who has been on Meth a very long time. Her body is wasted; her face is gaunt looking almost skeletal and may be covered with sores. Her cloths are ill-fitting do to massive weight loss. Where am I going with this? Simply that even in this sad state, she is read as female. How is this possible when she barely looks alive her ill-fitting cloths give no hint to her body shape removing that visual cue. Her clothing style may be androgynous looking or may be female or male styles. What do we have left then? Not physical size that was eliminated by the effect of the drug and hidden by the cloths. That leaves simply the face and the voice. Clue number one could be the hairstyle if her hair is short is she still read as female 90 percent of the time I would say yes.   That only leaves bone structure and the face itself.
Does this mean that the single best thing a trans woman can do to effect her pass ability is to concentrate on her facial features. 
Perhaps I've oversimplified a complex set of circumstances that go into pass ability or perhaps we overcomplicate it.
Jessica
Opinions welcome

[pebbles]

I don't live in the trans community I've never encountered another MTF in my life thus if I am to transition I need to be accepted by everyone and I noticed as you did the two factors that decide whether anyone would accept me in day to day interactions and thus most important factors to me are.

1: Face
2: Voice

If I had those two attributes I know I could pass 99% of the time. And it baffles me why major governmental organisations and even the NHS put such incredible legal interest in genitals.

Without SRS I would just lead my live without sex (only potentially causing a problem if I fell in love), and I would even gladly live without boobs if I had those two attributes.

[justmeinoz]

I think I have to agree 100% Jesse.  There is a woman who works at the local supermarket who is tall and very thin, no bust (mastectomies?), she has a thin face, but is still recognisable as a woman.

Having seen her close up at the checkout I would say it is her skin, lack of facial hair, and full head of hair, that make the difference even before she speaks.

If I can get the voice and the face right, especially my complexion, I think I will be well on the way.  A hair transplant would help if I don't want to wear a wig too. HRT with or without SRS or orchidectomy will change the skin, so that leaves the voice as the main thing to work on first.

True I will probably be thought of as some sort of butch lesbian bikie, but you can't have everything.

[rejennyrated]

Voice, face and body language to an extent.

The real battle is to get yourself to the place where you truly believe that you *are* that which you present as.

Most trans people paradoxically fail because they try too hard to convince. They are afraid to break the rules. That marks them out.

I started to pass the day when I stopped trying and instead learned the trick of being passively female - by which I mean that I didn't do anything to reinforce the preception of my gender. Instead I just presented myself as I was, did what I wanted, and let others make up their own minds. Result pretty much everyone reads me as female, and because I NEVER correct anyone even the very few people who might get it wrong soon correct themselves. Thats just way it seems to work...

I don't agree with Pebbles about SRS - having a body which has the appropriate bits was overwealmingly important to me. Not least because I am a very sexual person and I couldn't contemplate the hell of not being able to share physical intimacy with someone else in the way I wanted to. But I guess we are all different... which is a good thing.

[vanna]

i totally agree with jenny that the battle is within you and once you feel and know in your bones that you are male / female the battle is almost over.

it is a package however and some will never pass without surgery and some will that is what makes the journey exciting that we are all so individual.

[jesse]

see now jenny has added something to the equation body language/mannerisms if that same woman in my example is found unconscious hence no manerisms or body language is she still read as female the answer is yes she is so the torpedo sinks that addition.  to me that equates manerisms and body language-zero effect on passability. and voice is removed in same situation. so voice -zero effect on passability though a male voice would certainly go against your passability as would overly male manerisms but i think if the face is female it would negate the latter pretty efficiantly hence the term tom boys.
jessica

[rejennyrated]

i totally agree with jenny that the battle is within you and once you feel and know in your bones that you are male / female the battle is almost over.

it is a package however and some will never pass without surgery and some will that is what makes the journey exciting that we are all so individual.

Absolutely - which I had my SRS at the earliest possible moment. I also had the benefit of having come out as a very young child.

My point is that just as some people can pass before having it, there are sadly others who can't even after they have had it AND FFS and BA and CTA and whatever else simply because their self belief simply isn't there. They think that it is the surgery that will MAKE them female - when actually all surgery does is make you look like what you alread are...

see now jenny has added something to the equation body language/mannerisms if that same woman in my example is found unconscious hence no manerisms or body language is she still read as female the answer is yes she is so the torpedo sinks that addition.  to me that equates manerisms and body language-zero effect on passability. and voice is removed in same situation. so voice -zero effect on passability though a male voice would certainly go against your passability as would overly male manerisms but i think if the face is female it would negate the latter pretty efficiantly hence the term tom boys.
jessica

True - but even when you are unconcious you do have an aura, which is a kind of body language of it's own.

That's kind of what I mean by being passively female - if you look at me as a piece of meat nd disect my physical attributes - I have some male attributes - for example slightly heavier build to my torso... and perhaps a few minor androgynous facial attributes...

But I also have small hands, small feet, no adams apple, a broadly female fat distribution, some suggestion of hips, and of course ostensibly female genitalia - but that last point isn't seen unless I was nude.

Thing is, with exception to the huge bust and the female naughty bits I had all those same attributes before I started... and yet when I did my reparative therapy I was accpeted as male most of the time.

So there is something more involved - although I will agree that it is difficult to pin down.

[jesse]

ok so i see jenns point and i have to agree that your confidence in your gender probably does go along way to helping you pass. hmmm have to think alittle more on this point
jessica

[rejennyrated]

ok so i see jenns point and i have to agree that your confidence in your gender probably does go along way to helping you pass. hmmm have to think alittle more on this point
jessica

Yep - that's it - get the self belief - and then you can get away with murder! (well in gender terms anyway) - because somehow even when you do boy things - you will then do them in a *girl* way - that the nearest I can come to expaining.

[justmeinoz]

I suppose we are really talking about a combination of things.  In summary then -
Body language and posture will be visible at a distance, even before the face is visible, or the voice heard.

Voice is a give away on the phone, but can be changed with practice.

Hair, unless we are very fortunate is something that we have to counter with a transplant, wig or some other means, if it has started to go.

With regard to the face I think it is a combination of bone structure and sub-cutaneous fat, as well as lack of hair.  FFS will be dependant on what you start with I guess, so results will vary.
Laser and electrolysis can remove the facial hair, so that leaves a combination of HRT and makeup expertise to change the apparent softness of the facial features. 

Does that sound reasonable? Others have been doing this a lot longer than I have, so any advice is very gratefully acepted.

[rejennyrated]

I suppose we are really talking about a combination of things.  In summary then -
Body language and posture will be visible at a distance, even before the face is visible, or the voice heard.

Voice is a give away on the phone, but can be changed with practice.

Hair, unless we are very fortunate is something that we have to counter with a transplant, wig or some other means, if it has started to go.

With regard to the face I think it is a combination of bone structure and sub-cutaneous fat, as well as lack of hair.  FFS will be dependant on what you start with I guess, so results will vary.
Laser and electrolysis can remove the facial hair, so that leaves a combination of HRT and makeup expertise to change the apparent softness of the facial features. 

Does that sound reasonable? Others have been doing this a lot longer than I have, so any advice is very gratefully acepted.

The hair yes - it's not impossible, but difficult to be a woman with a receding hairline.

Facial hair absolutely 100.0% - you have to have electrolysis or laser before you can even think about thinking about thinking about passing.

FFS - ONLY if absolutely needed. Use your eyes - lots of women have androgynous faces - otherwise I wouldn't get away with mine so easily. Yes if you have a huge square chin and/or a massive brow then maybe it's worth it. But otherwise no.

Voice is important. Not just just pitch but intonation and *style* of speech. By that I don't mean you have to be all flowery and prissy - just that women tend to use more animation when they speak.

But the biggest thing is SELF BELIEF. If you lack that all the rest will be futile.

[jesse]

i reach this conclusion if the face structure is good along with the details implied by that statement you will pass until the combined weight of negatives results in us getting read as male for instance you look female but your posture and manerisms =male -1 point you speak and voice is male -1 point  your self confidence is low in your own passability - coupe de grace in others eyes = male cross dressor or whatever other term they want to apply as we have just been read.
Post Merge: April 29, 2010, 06:41:48 AM
thanks for playing along with me i like to anaylize stuff so it helps me to progress
jessica

[Northern Jane]

The real battle is to get yourself to the place where you truly believe that you *are* that which you present as.

THAT is the ONLY difference between other women and TG women - other women KNOW who/what they are and never question it.

I had the good fortune to have SRS & transition back in 1974 and was just so naive that I never doubted  that I was just another girl. That confidence carries more weight than anyone recognizes!

[LordKAT]

I think face means much more than most people let on. Everyone checks out the face even if it is only for a few seconds. I think it has to do with bone structure of the face. Unfortunately, that is hard or impossible to change for FTM.

[lilacwoman]

I think it depends on who is looking as I get taken for woman most of the time but then some people make it perfectly obvious that they read me straight away.  Obviously teenage girls read me while I'm invisible to teenage boys.  I really don't know what it is that says 'male' in my case.

[Janet_Girl]

Ok my 2 cents.

Face.
Voice.
Attitude.

And by attitude I mean to own the fact you are your true gender.  One has to truly own the fact that you are your gender.

[Chrissty]

I guess I'll just chip in and agree with what is being said here..

...just let's not forget the free facial feminsing effect of "a smile" 

Chrissty

[Rock_chick]

Facial hair absolutely 100.0% - you have to have electrolysis or laser before you can even think about thinking about thinking about passing.

Completely this...as much as I hate having to do boy mode outside the comfort of my house...I know I have no chance of passing with the 5 o'clock shadow of doom. Waiting is a pain in the proverbial....grrrrrr.

Voice is important. Not just just pitch but intonation and *style* of speech. By that I don't mean you have to be all flowery and prissy - just that women tend to use more animation when they speak.

But the biggest thing is SELF BELIEF. If you lack that all the rest will be futile.

I'd say a lot of the voice is down to confidence as well...the actual control techniques are simple, i'd got to a point where I could raise the pitch and resonance into a female range in a couple of weeks...however I still thought it was just a high pitched male voice. However speaking to Jenny last sunday and receiving a huge, huge, huge compliment in regards to my voice it really does sound female to me, so being confident in yourself is easily your biggest advantage when it comes to passing.

P.S Jenny is awesome

[Megan]

1. Voice
2. Face, but almost as equal as the voice
3. Hips larger than shoulders
4. Proportional body shapes for a typical female
5. Long hair, fashion, mannerisms

In that order

I don't believe in auras/behavior that much, since I can pretend I am a woman so much till my heart screams it but the truth is people will read me as a male. Masculine women are still read as women, but read as lesbians, still their mannerisms are male and yet most people read them as a female because they are GG. It's not their aura.

[milktea]

nah it's just the face alone...if they can't see your face then they'll check out your hair and body shape...voice is only if you start speaking (duhhhh) and mannerism only when you start moving (duhhh x2)....