a thought on passing

[LordKAT]

The only problem with that theory is I don't look young, the grey hair gives me away. It does cause some people to question my light facial hair but I just admit to hormones for a lack of T and that it was discovered later than ideal.

[alexia elliot]

Power of human eyes and brain devoted to vision are staggering. We are a very much vision bound species. Our ability to decipher facial details is astonishing and goes deeper than skin deep. In fact we are able by default to subconsciously read a state of physical/mental health and genetic predisposition. Our evolution is to thank for such abilities much in our Transgender disappointment. Jesse, you are absolutely correct in assessment you have concluded. Female is read female because of the package of all necessary characteristics fitting in as a whole. Ability to decipher facial character makes for the face being most important in passability, however if the rest of the package does not conform to the first observation, observer will question immediately validity of the first assessment, picking apart all aspects. "Hence a double stair"!  Observer looks onto a good looking TG, brain assesses input, makes assumption of interest, if the look is passable but not interesting observer goes on, if the interest arises the second deeper assessment will follow.
Mannerism is important but if mannerism has no backing in facial and body geometry it will not make you pass.
I am gravely disappointed for my self starting transition so late and have come to the conclusion that full passability is mostly reserved for those young ones brave and determined. Some of us older ones posses "I don't care what others say" attitude which feels like passability is in the attitude, but it is just wishful thinking on their part. I believe, at least to me, passability involves fooling someone elses powerful visual brain to read you as female when you are not( genetically that is). If passability was ego centered, meaning, we needed to fool our selves in believing we are females, we wouldn't have this discussion in the first place. It all comes down to the most basic and eons old human need, To belong! To be accepted as you are, in our case we have to swim against the current of human basic knowledge and validate to the world that we are as normal as anyone out there, guess what?     

[Janet_Girl]

I have to disagree Alexia.  I am older and I am a woman, I am not fooling myself.  However, like many women, I sometimes do not think I am very pretty.  But I am still a woman.  And I really don't care what others think.

[alexia elliot]

Hi Janet, you are a babe and I did not intend to make an argument against our believe of who we are. We posses woman brain or what ever it is that makes one feel female. We also posses male body and chemistry which we have decided to alter to fit our self image. My argument is strictly for visual passability, and I do mean visual presentation which onlooker sees and makes a judgment as to assigning gender. Every one does make such assessment, it is an automatic survival based feature to help us spread joy of life upon the world :-) Within the confines of this reflex extreme details are assessed and answer is presented. What I am merely driving at is that for most of us older transformers time has done its inevitable damage and regardless of mannerism, sensuality and high heels :-) we will be read as "something doesn't make sense here" picture. Now, some may be fortunate to simply by chance arrive at full package but I would suspect there aren't many if any. However from your recent peaks, as I have said before, you are turning very much a passable female and to me that is a beauty. On the other hand I know myself that some pictures show me very well and then are those which went directly to the shredder. The whole package! that is where we fail and must make up with exaggerated mannerisms or whatever. And then there is, once again, who cares attitude which sort of free us of pressure but deep down beneath all the layers, beneath conscious thought and proudness of who we are lie the want to be finally looked upon without second guess, without further clarification, to be looked at as real human being and woman at that!

[Janet_Girl]

Well thank you Alexia.    I don't wish to turn this into a long running argument ether.

And yes there will always be "there is something not quite right here" no matter how much we spent on repairing the damage.  But how many natal women give off the same signals?  We just need to go forward and be as happy as we can be.

We may not get to the point where the 'attitude' is not required, but we will always have it because it is important to us to remain sane.

But the way, I think that your a hottie. 

[FairyGirl]

I gently disagree about age being an impossible barrier in the ability to pass, be seen, live as female. I do agree that it is more unusual, rare even? ...but not impossible. I started transition at 48 and just completed it at age 52. I am never questioned nor do I receive strange looks or am ever sirred. Unless people are just being kind to me, but I do not believe that is the case. I do have a few questionable markers, my jaw should be a little narrower and my eyes are a little deep, but I do okay and get my share of male attention ...the good kind.

I completely agree with Valerie, and I'm never questioned either. In fact in the last 2 days while getting my pre-op tests done I was asked if I might be pregnant by an X-ray technician, and if I wanted a pap smear with my physical by a nurse in my own doctor's office. It is a non-issue to me, and not because it's ever a problem. I understand it as it is used here, but I've come to think the whole concept of "passing" implies that I'm trying fool others into thinking I'm something that I'm not. I know who I am and I act accordingly. Non-issue.

[RAY]

facial features can be  noticed with skin texture and how you are preceived . For some it is harder to pass as a female. That's why help is there for information on makeup,voice lessions,etc... to those whom seek to pass as females. Really gratful that such sites as susan's place is here.

[alexia elliot]

OK, you girls do prove a point by your own example. If in fact you do look like your avatars from every angle, I would never suspect you not being a woman. I on the other hand have put the best face forward, so truly I am not all that appears but simply one picture that symbolizes my self. In the past I have also experienced similar attitude in people I have met and they simply were not aware of the surrounding reality. I don't know where I am going with this, it is my frustrations which nitpick every detail and analyze every gesture. I guess I am not comfortable with my self yet, but one thing for sure, I love you all as you are and point of my discussion here is just to find out the absolute truth and reassurance that I also can achieve the impossible.

[FairyGirl]

well we are women, and actually the fact that I don't have problems with being accepted as such still amazes and amuses me sometimes, as in the 2 incidents I mentioned above. I just think we need another word that is less connotative of active deception, perhaps a passive (no pun intended lol) word like "accepted"- instead of talking about passing, say accepted or not accepted. But I think the term "passing" is very deeply rooted and not likely to change.

[LordKAT]

I passed all my classes in school just fine and that was very real. At least to the people who care to read them.

[rejennyrated]

OK, you girls do prove a point by your own example. If in fact you do look like your avatars from every angle, I would never suspect you not being a woman. I on the other hand have put the best face forward, so truly I am not all that appears but simply one picture that symbolizes my self. In the past I have also experienced similar attitude in people I have met and they simply were not aware of the surrounding reality. I don't know where I am going with this, it is my frustrations which nitpick every detail and analyze every gesture. I guess I am not comfortable with my self yet, but one thing for sure, I love you all as you are and point of my discussion here is just to find out the absolute truth and reassurance that I also can achieve the impossible.

Ok I did have SRS at 24 - which you might say was young, but in fact most of the damage that time was going to do to me had already happened by that age as I was fully adult by several years. I'm certainly not the best looking woman in the world but I do make the grade.

In actual fact I think it's often mre difficult for us at a younger age because at that point in your life boys are looking at you in a very sexual way and often if there are any tiny flaws they will find them. I hardly ever got spotted back then but if anything as I have aged I had felt less vulnerable to that possibility.

There are several of the older girls on here who manage a far better appearance than I do, probably partly because they have taken care of themselves where I have just relaxed and let it all go where it will. So I'm going to disagree on looks alone.

Where I perhaps do have a slight advantage over some is in my voice - which because I grew up openly androgynous never got trained to male vocal manerisms. I think I have posted enough different photos and avatars (all me) on here over the years to prove that my appearance is pretty ok seen from any angle. But overall I do think that you underestimate what many of the older transitioners can also achieve. Many of them have looks that I envy.

[NessaJ]

I think I completely agree with this, which is why if I were to ever have any surgery, which is unlikely, I would just do FFS