I'm curious if this applies to us: Digit Ratio

[jimmymot]

So, the sex of a person is influenced by androgen and testosterone exposure as a fetus in the womb.
The ratio of two digits (the comparison of their length) is "considered a crude measure" of that exposure.
There's a theory that orientation and gender may be indicated by that ratio.

In males, the index finger tends to be shorter than the ring finger.
In females the index finger tends to be the same size or slightly longer than the ring finger.

The length is from the bottom crease of the finger to the very tip, so requires measuring, as mere millimeters supposedly indicate a difference. It's also on both hands not just the dominate one.

So far this is merely a uncertain, but well-backed-up, theory, so I was just interested if the people here, women who identify as male, have that verified based on this simple measurement of testosterone exposure.

in my case, my ring fingers are longer than my index fingers on both hands, so I fit the "male" finger ratio.

Here's an article about it:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Digit_ratio


Thanks!

[rejennyrated]

...and the good news is that I fit the theoretical female profile.

My index is actually about 2mm longer than my ring.

But i'm still not that convinced by this theory.

[Myself]

It's old and well known but not all transsexuals have it, just like not all non-transsexual people have a normal ratio.

But it really DOES indicate if you had higher androgen or lower androgen levels in the womb, it simply doesn't mean the androgen levels ALWAYS cause a person to orient with one gender or the other.

My index fingers are long, but I am a female, not a ftm. So anyways, so far so good

I did check into it myself sometimes and asked my friends to look when I was in there and sometimes we even asked random people (like a waiter!) because it was funny. So far it was about 95% right Although it's a lot more common for women to vary than for men. (women ratio is about 1.0 with usually the index finger being slightly longer but can be a bit the other way around, men ratio is usually quite larger in favor of the ring fingers).

I think you are more likely to find mtf and ftm with normal ratios for male and female (going the same way). But again, ftm easily varies because women finger digit ratio can vary a lot, but usually is slightly less than me.
I seen men with average of 4 or 5 mm difference and sometimes more, it's rare to see a man with difference of less than 3mm (3mm itself is sometimes rare). At least in my environment.

[kyril]

Right hand index: 7.2 cm
Right hand ring: 7.5 cm

Left hand index: 7.1 cm
Left hand ring: 7.5 cm

Yeah, I'm male. And my hands are tiny, even for a girl, which discounts this explanation in my case:

A 2009 study in Biology Letters argues: "Sexual differences in 2D:4D are mainly caused by the shift along the common allometric line with non-zero intercept, which means 2D:4D necessarily decreases with increasing finger length, and the fact that men have longer fingers than women,"[8]  which may be the basis for the sex difference in digit ratios and/or any putative hormonal influence on the ratios.

[jimmymot]

But i'm still not that convinced by this theory.

Yah, its unsubstantiated. If you read the article some people even write it off simply as men being predisposed to longer fingers.

They've got it 100% right:

...it really DOES indicate if you had higher androgen or lower androgen levels in the womb, it simply doesn't mean the androgen levels ALWAYS cause a person to orient with one gender or the other...

I was just curious.
Post Merge: April 30, 2010, 06:09:51 AM

Right hand index: 7.2 cm
Right hand ring: 7.5 cm

Left hand index: 7.1 cm
Left hand ring: 7.5 cm

Yeah, I'm male. And my hands are tiny, even for a girl, which discounts this explanation in my case...

Yah, my hands are tiny too. my fingers are only 7cm as well yet end up with a whole centimeter difference, like this:

Left hand: index-6cm; ring-7cm
Right hand: index-6.3cm; ring-7cm

[rejennyrated]

well as to overall length my Left & Right hands are both the same.

Ring is 6.2
Index is 6.5

I don't know where that places me on the scale of things. I have fairly small palms and proportionally quite long slender fingers.

[kyril]

Yah, my hands are tiny too. my fingers are only 7cm as well yet end up with a whole centimeter difference, like this:

Left hand: index-6cm; ring-7cm
Right hand: index-6.3cm; ring-7cm

That aligns with you being straight and me gay

[insanitylives]

Just by LOOKING at my hands index finger is shorter (don't have a ruler)

[yay, some things are going right ]

[kyril]

well as to overall length my Left & Right hands are both the same.

Ring is 6.2
Index is 6.5

I don't know where that places me on the scale of things. I have fairly small palms and proportionally quite long slender fingers.

and that puts you comfortably in the female range. Basically, 1:1 or a shorter ring finger indicates female, a longer ring finger indicates male. Men who are close to 1:1 and women who are at or slightly above 1:1 are more likely to be gay.

It's odd, though, I've only met maybe 2 adults in real life with smaller hands than mine, but both of you who've given measurements have shorter fingers than I do. No idea how you manage to find gloves. I wear children's size ones. And not even the largest.

[jimmymot]

That aligns with you being straight and me gay

Oh wow! I didn't read into that!

So then in theory I would be attracted to women as a "straight male"?
and are you gay? as in attracted to males as a male-identified person?

ha! how gray is this getting? 

[kyril]

Yah, its unsubstantiated. If you read the article some people even write it off simply as men being predisposed to longer fingers.

but it's not at all unsubstantiated - if you check out the links and sources, there's actually piles and piles and piles of research on the subject. And not just in humans, but in animals too. Not even just primates, either. 2D:4D ratio is one of the most sexually-dimorphic traits visible at birth other than genitalia, and it corresponds with a whole host of sex- and gender-related traits from athletic competitiveness to sexuality to handwriting style, even though it's something that the overwhelming majority of people aren't aware of and thus isn't used to gender people for social conditioning.
Post Merge: April 30, 2010, 06:23:14 AM

So then in theory I would be attracted to women as a "straight male"?
and are you gay? as in attracted to males as a male-identified person?

Yep.

[Myself]

My left hand is about:
Left Ring: 7.0
Left Index: 7.1

My right hand is about:
Right Ring 7.0
Right Index 7.1
They are pretty a like. I was surprised my left and right measured the same, usually there is quite a bit of asymmetry in left/right of the body.

Wow rejennyrated your fingers are short!

insanitylives, you should probably measure because the fingers usually don't *start* at the same height, so it can make one look longer and when you measure it, you'll find it's shorter. But not to dis-encourage you: it is actually the index finger which starts higher, so if your ring finger is still longer it might just be even more right for you

Post Merge: April 30, 2010, 06:26:50 AM

and that puts you comfortably in the female range. Basically, 1:1 or a shorter ring finger indicates female, a longer ring finger indicates male. Men who are close to 1:1 and women who are at or slightly above 1:1 are more likely to be gay.

It's odd, though, I've only met maybe 2 adults in real life with smaller hands than mine, but both of you who've given measurements have shorter fingers than I do. No idea how you manage to find gloves. I wear children's size ones. And not even the largest.

Fingers aren't the whole hand! how does your palm measure? or let's say base of hand to end of middle finger?

[kyril]

Fingers aren't the whole hand! how does your palm measure? or let's say base of hand to end of middle finger?

About 17 cm - harder to get an accurate measurement because I'm using measuring tape and I seem to need a third hand to hold it in place.

OH! I was reading the tape wrong when I did my fingers. It's really misleading - the numbers are next to the 0.5cm marks rather than the 1cm marks. Here are the correct measurements:

Right hand index: 6.7 cm
Right hand ring: 7.0 cm

Left hand index: 6.6 cm
Left hand ring: 7.0 cm

[jimmymot]

but it's not at all unsubstantiated - if you check out the links and sources, there's actually piles and piles and piles of research on the subject. And not just in humans, but in animals too. Not even just primates, either. 2D:4D ratio is one of the most sexually-dimorphic traits visible at birth other than genitalia, and it corresponds with a whole host of sex- and gender-related traits from athletic competitiveness to sexuality to handwriting style, even though it's something that the overwhelming majority of people aren't aware of and thus isn't used to gender people for social conditioning. Post Merge: April 30, 2010, 06:23:14 AMYep.

Oh, well in that case! lol.

I knew the fact that it related to gender, as in genitalia, was true, but that in terms of orientation and gender role it had yet be established as a genuine connection.

What do you think about the left-brain/right-brain argument that states women are more likely to use the left side of their brain?

This images reveals which side is dominant, by the way:
http://www.hikingnewengland.com/forums/topic/1083-left-brain-or-right-brain-heres-how-to-tell/
It matched male again, for me. 

[Myself]

kyril, 17cm isn't that small at all! unless you're buying MAN gloves I guess. My mother's hands are about 16.5 if I remember and my brother's girlfriend (who is just at mom's height) has even 16cm.

But I guess you ARE looking at the men's gloves, aren't you?
Post Merge: April 30, 2010, 06:48:04 AM

Oh, well in that case! lol.

I knew the fact that it related to gender, as in genitalia, was true, but that in terms of orientation and gender role it had yet be established as a genuine connection.

What do you think about the left-brain/right-brain argument that states women are more likely to use the left side of their brain?

This images reveals which side is dominant, by the way:
http://www.hikingnewengland.com/forums/topic/1083-left-brain-or-right-brain-heres-how-to-tell/
It matched male again, for me. 

This photo isn't based on how your brain works but rather how your vision works. I saw an explanation for why this photo is flawed, it was very long ago so apologizes for not bothering to find it again.

Anyhow, MOST people will see it rotating clock-wise when looking at it. about 30% of people will see it counter-clock wise because their vision is oriented a bit differently.

Notice if you don't focus on it, for example, focus on a text to the left of it or read the text at the bottom, it should switch sides.

This photo is NOT about the brain sides but rather at the way vision works, which is the same for men and women.

Another thing is, women don't really use the left side of the brain more, women use both of their brain sides at about the same level while men usually use one side a bit more, not always the right or the left, A lot of new arguments actually seem to say that men use their left side more than the right (usually) note: logic, math and science, all at the left side.

feeling, imagination, symbols images and philosophy, right side.

In truth, the use of the brain is mixed, A LOT.

[rejennyrated]

Wow rejennyrated your fingers are short!

But as my palms are also tiny they actually look long! - Compared with my more typical MtF partner my hand are tiny!

and that puts you comfortably in the female range. Basically, 1:1 or a shorter ring finger indicates female, a longer ring finger indicates male. Men who are close to 1:1 and women who are at or slightly above 1:1 are more likely to be gay.

It's odd, though, I've only met maybe 2 adults in real life with smaller hands than mine, but both of you who've given measurements have shorter fingers than I do. No idea how you manage to find gloves. I wear children's size ones. And not even the largest.

Me too. I have a beautiful pair that were designed for an 11 year old girl - they fit perfectly.

It's rather good - they're cheaper in the Uk because unlike adult clothes they don't carry VAT

I never had a male pair - there just wern't any small enough not to fall off!

[Zack]

Yeah my index finger is shorter than my ring finger, on both hands.

[kyril]

Oh, well in that case! lol.

I knew the fact that it related to gender, as in genitalia, was true, but that in terms of orientation and gender role it had yet be established as a genuine connection.

What do you think about the left-brain/right-brain argument that states women are more likely to use the left side of their brain?

This images reveals which side is dominant, by the way:
http://www.hikingnewengland.com/forums/topic/1083-left-brain-or-right-brain-heres-how-to-tell/
It matched male again, for me. 

There's not really an acceptable definition of "dominant hemisphere," so while the "dancer" image might me measuring something interesting about your brain/perception, it's not likely to be telling you which hemisphere is dominant. (In my case it's counterclockwise, or supposedly "left brain," which may be accurate as I'm a verbal/logic/math person, but I didn't need the test to tell me that.)

Sexual dimorphism of hemisphere dominance is actually a really tricky question to answer. Most people, male and female, are right-handed, which means that in at least some ways the left hemisphere is typically dominant in both sexes. But for some tasks research using brain imaging has shown sexual dimorphism - not in which hemisphere is used, necessarily, but in that women tend to use both at the same time while men's brain activity is concentrated on one side. I think that's supposed to have something to do with sex differences in the corpus callosum.
Post Merge: April 30, 2010, 06:58:02 AM

kyril, 17cm isn't that small at all! unless you're buying MAN gloves I guess. My mother's hands are about 16.5 if I remember and my brother's girlfriend (who is just at mom's height) has even 16cm.

But I guess you ARE looking at the men's gloves, aren't you?

Actually, no - like I said, I wear children's. Women's are too big (that is, when they exist at all - there's not much choice in mechanic's gloves).

[jimmymot]

In truth, the use of the brain is mixed, A LOT.

I have read that too, but that there are definitely consistent areas in which performance is marginally better by women or men, often having to do with spatial recognition, which is why I thought the image might be accurate.

But it is good to know you have seen it debunked, for I won't invest in it any longer! 

Neuroscience is so fascinating though. I think its going to do wonders for psychiatric methods and even in the question of consciousness. Looking forward to that!
Post Merge: April 30, 2010, 07:12:08 AM

Actually, no - like I said, I wear children's. Women's are too big (that is, when they exist at all - there's not much choice in mechanic's gloves).

I find gloves, including women's gloves, are too big for me as well, there is always extra space in the ends of the fingers. Maybe its a finger to palm ratio thing. 

[rejennyrated]

Well that makes three of us wearing children's sizes then... Girls size age 9-11 are what I usually end up with. (and they don't do mechanics gloves in that size either )