Am I MTF Transgendered or a Gay Male

[Izumi]

If the thought of having your penis turned into a vagina does not appeal to you, you might not be an MTF transexual.  I know there are non-ops who live full time, and those peeps are TG, but I think the definition of "transexual" pretty much revolves around an expreesed desire to alter primary sexual characteristics to that of the sex not assigned at birth.  That pretty much sums it up, I think.

I would agree with that, but some people dont like that.  I cant see myself as living as girl if everyday i have a constant reminder of my past between my legs to depress me.  Its a driving ambition to get rid of that, at least for me. 

[lilacwoman]

I would agree with that, but some people dont like that.  I cant see myself as living as girl if everyday i have a constant reminder of my past between my legs to depress me.  Its a driving ambition to get rid of that, at least for me.

LOTS of people don't like that!  many non-ops even go so far as to call themselves male lesbians in order to justify keeping their favourite toy.

[Danacee]

All the soo called comparisons between gay men and transsexuals, attempts to classify them as being related is bull. Mainly due to the fact that every goddamn study that has taken place on the matter pretty much just compared male prostitutes with transsexual ones from the same block. I hate to say it but that is the only place where the lines blur.

[Pippa]

All the difference in the world.   A gay male is sexually attracted to other men.   Being gay is an issue of sexuality.   Being Mtf is generally not about sexual attraction.   You feel and wish to live as a woman, be that a lesbian or as a straight woman.   Many make the common mistake of assuming that gender and sexuality are the same thing, they're not.

This is why I don't go along with the whole LGBT agenda.   The first three are about sexuality, the fourth is an almost completely different issue.

[Renate]

Hmm, I think some confusion and raised hackles might have been avoided if this topic was entitled, "Am I an MTF or a gay male?"

Of course this is the core of gender identification. How do you feel about strangers calling you, "sir"?
The two genders are not actually secret societies, but there is a tenuous connection between two people of the same gender even if they are strangers.
Because heterosexuality is the default there are battle lines between the genders.
Which side do you want to be on?

(A tangent: For those of us who were always attracted to woman, I think that our sexual orientation was a hindrance to considering transition.
For those of use who were attracted to men, this discrepancy was an inducement to considering transition.)

[Rosa]

Hmm, I think some confusion and raised hackles might have been avoided if this topic was entitled, "Am I an MTF or a gay male?"

Of course this is the core of gender identification. How do you feel about strangers calling you, "sir"?
The two genders are not actually secret societies, but there is a tenuous connection between two people of the same gender even if they are strangers.
Because heterosexuality is the default there are battle lines between the genders.
Which side do you want to be on?

(A tangent: For those of us who were always attracted to woman, I think that our sexual orientation was a hindrance to considering transition.
For those of use who were attracted to men, this discrepancy was an inducement to considering transition.)

Well, I sure regret having started the topic because of all the fuss, which I never dreamed would happen and I agree that your suggested title would have been better (wish I had thought of that).  Perhaps due to my wording, people may have thought that I suggested being gay and transgender was the same, but if I felt that way I would not have started the topic in the first place.  I know they are different, which is why I wanted to know what the differences were - as in feelings and how one self-identifies.  I know there are people on this board who used to identify as gay male before they realized they were transgender. 

I never met anyone that I knew was transgendered or transexual, so I only have been able to talk to people from the gay community (and not that many).    As a young person I did not have female role models who I could identify with, and not getting along with my mother and the way I was raised to think about females from the church (another topic) I think that I grew up with the wrong attitude about women. 

The more I explore on this board and the more I talk with girls, the more I feel that I am definitely a woman inside.  I would not mind at all to get rid of Mr. Johnson, and think that having a vagina would be much more who I am, yet, for a strange reason I do not have an overwhelming desire to present as a woman even if I might like to wear a blouse - I used to wear a sarong around the house.  Maybe I am repressing since dealing with low self-esteem, I don't feel that I am an attractive guy and can't imagine being an attractive woman.  Yet, when I see other woman on TV or in person, I either think wow, nice outfit or, I wish I could look like that. 

Anyway, to those of you who have had patience with me, thank you.  This is not an easy road to walk, especially living in a tiny conservative podunk town with bible thumpers and racists. 

[lilacwoman]

Here ya go http://jcem.endojournals.org/cgi/content/full/85/5/2034 

Thats an older study and by now the team have studied 13 and possibly more TS brains and all show same BSTc. 

[Riannah]

I don't feel that I am an attractive guy and can't imagine being an attractive woman.

It's not about being attractive, it's about being a guy/woman...

[Izumi]

Thats an older study and by now the team have studied 13 and possibly more TS brains and all show same BSTc.

Yes thats true but the one thing they dont know is if that BSTc count and spread is the same before HRT.  No TS has been studied before taking HRT, only after, so the effect on hormones on the brain causing that is not ruled out until such time as there is a PRE-HRT TS brain, however, MRI do show TS thought patterns are different then typical male patterns, even before HRT. 

[glendagladwitch]

Yes thats true but the one thing they dont know is if that BSTc count and spread is the same before HRT.  No TS has been studied before taking HRT, only after, so the effect on hormones on the brain causing that is not ruled out until such time as there is a PRE-HRT TS brain, however, MRI do show TS thought patterns are different then typical male patterns, even before HRT.

I think you are thinking about the old study.  the newer study, linked above says:

Hormone treatment or sex hormone level variations in adulthood did not seem to have influenced BSTc neuron numbers.

...

In the present study, 42 brains of patients were analyzed (for an overview see Table 1). The brains of 34 reference subjects (9 presumed heterosexual males, 9 homosexual males, 10 presumed heterosexual females, and 6 male-to-female transsexuals) ranging from 20–53 yr of age, together with six brains (three males and three females) of patients with sex hormone disorders were obtained at autopsy, after the required permissions had been obtained. Twenty-six of the reference subjects were the same as used in the earlier study of Zhou et al. (22), whereas eight new patients (five females, two males, and one homosexual man) were included because not enough sections were left for the present study. A Turner syndrome patient (S6) and a castrated (orchiectomized) male patient (S5) were included in the sex hormone disorder group [n = 6; see the legend to Fig. 1; S1, S2, S3, and M2 were also used in the study of Zhou et al. (22)]. A nontreated individual with strong cross-gender identity feelings (S7), which were already present since his earliest childhood, was also analyzed. In addition, we had the exceptional opportunity to be able to study the first collected brain ever of a female-to-male transsexual (FMT). The brains were matched for age, postmortem time, and duration of formalin fixation. Neuropathology of all subjects was systematically performed by Dr. W. Kamphorst (Free University, Amsterdam, The Netherlands), Dr. D. Troost (Academic Medical Centre of the University of Amsterdam, Amsterdam, The Netherlands), or Prof. F. C. Stam (Netherlands Brain Bank, Amsterdam, The Netherlands). Subjects had no primary neurological or psychiatric diseases, unless stated otherwise.

I've bolded the important parts.  They did have such a brain to study.

[tunak]

well like everyone else here said, gender is unrelated to Sexual orientation... u can be a mtf trans but like boys or girls or both. I had the same feeling before i started my transition... was i a gay male or a mtf trans... i figured i was trans because:

1.) i dont like people seeing me masculine ( and i dont like looking like one, i hate growing facial hair, i hate lifting because itll make me bigger, i grew an androgynous hair etc)
2.) i dont like when people treat me like a guy and always jealous of the girls... i was jealous how they can dress up, put make up on, get treated by males.
3.) Ive never like using my thing and always played the submissive role
4.) in my previous relationship, i always wanted my ex to treat my like a girl and i get very upset when he treats me differently than girls (like he opens doors for them, he talks more nicely to them, etc)

basically these 4 things are major evidence for me that i am female psychologically.
i was scared that i was transitioning for the wrong reasons, (because of the recent breakup). Changing to become a ts for me is not a sexual agenda but more like to get the treatment i have been longing for. It has been 6 months since i started hrt, i have kept my virginity even after many opportunities to sleep with hot str8 men. Im happy for this because it really proved i didnt change to get laid by str8 men.

in conclusion, dig deep figure out the pros and cons...Figure out the risks, and see if your willing to take those risks... list why u think ur a trans... list why u think ur a gay male and compare the two... its a search that requires time and aggressive self-analyzation. it took me about 2 years to finally decide, and i was still somewhat unsure when i first took my hormone pills but i am glad i did I have never been happier

[Yvonne]

Given the number of SEXUALITY-related posts you've made so far, I'd say you're obsessed with sex just like any other man.  Need I say more?

[lilacwoman]

I've bolded the important parts.  They did have such a brain to study.
[/quote]

I was going to quote that too.

What we have to remember is that over the centuries in different cultures and despite the great trouble and hardship they imposed on themselves there have always been people who insisted on living as the opposite sex so logically the BSTc research is merely confirming what must be an actual fact.
Every day around the world there are babies born with various physical malfunctions and it would be stupid to say that the brain cannot also be malformed as it develops from some tiny speck of DNA or gene or whatever exactly it starts out as.


Post Merge: July 27, 2010, 06:59:27 AM
Sure, receiving oral sex feels great, but I find it a bit disconcerting for some reason.  I would feel much better if I had female parts.  I asked my brother how he would feel if he lost his penis and it sounded like it would be the end of the world since that was the most important thing to him.  I can't identify with that at all. 
No great desire for breasts for my sake, but since it is such a big turn on for men I would not mind having them.
[/quote]
I don't think Robertina would be happy as a woman on HRT or after srs.  I think he has lots of other issues that need sorting.
But to go back to his original post there are lots of differences between MtFs and masculine gay guys and also between effeminate hetero or effeminate gay guys and MtFs and I'm think Robertina is effeminate gay rather than effeminate hetero or MtF.

[Izumi]

I've bolded the important parts.  They did have such a brain to study.


I was going to quote that too.

What we have to remember is that over the centuries in different cultures and despite the great trouble and hardship they imposed on themselves there have always been people who insisted on living as the opposite sex so logically the BSTc research is merely confirming what must be an actual fact.
Every day around the world there are babies born with various physical malfunctions and it would be stupid to say that the brain cannot also be malformed as it develops from some tiny speck of DNA or gene or whatever exactly it starts out as.


Post Merge: July 27, 2010, 06:59:27 AM
Sure, receiving oral sex feels great, but I find it a bit disconcerting for some reason.  I would feel much better if I had female parts.  I asked my brother how he would feel if he lost his penis and it sounded like it would be the end of the world since that was the most important thing to him.  I can't identify with that at all. 
No great desire for breasts for my sake, but since it is such a big turn on for men I would not mind having them.

I don't think Robertina would be happy as a woman on HRT or after srs.  I think he has lots of other issues that need sorting.
But to go back to his original post there are lots of differences between MtFs and masculine gay guys and also between effeminate hetero or effeminate gay guys and MtFs and I'm think Robertina is effeminate gay rather than effeminate hetero or MtF.

Heh, thats why a good gender therapist is needed to sort out what you are, if you dont know yourself.  For me, i knew, it was no doubt, i would rather have died then stay like i was.

[Rosa]

Given the number of SEXUALITY-related posts you've made so far, I'd say you're obsessed with sex just like any other man.  Need I say more?

Asking questions does not make me obsessed.  I don't relate to sex at all like a man.  I just see a bit more of a connection to sexuality and gender, but everybody is different. 
Post Merge: July 27, 2010, 11:43:18 AM

Heh, thats why a good gender therapist is needed to sort out what you are, if you dont know yourself.  For me, i knew, it was no doubt, i would rather have died then stay like i was.

I wish that it was crystal clear to me, but I think one big thing is that I never really allowed myself to consider the possibility, plus, even being gay was still considered a psychiatric illness during my childhood, and there was no Internet or any type of support groups available.  Plus, I had problems with my mother, and between that and church teaching about women, I don't think I had a healthy view of women, so naturally, you don't want to be something you don't like.

I hope someday that I can afford a real gender therapist.  I thought my psychiatrist could help - first time to see her today, but I left feeling worse.  She prefers the phrase "alternate lifestyle"  to gender confused and also reminded me that many people think that being gay or transgendered is a choice!  I assured her that I would never have chosen something that was so difficult.  Session started out good, but went downhill - and I probably wasted money that I could have used for a decent therapist, but I live in a tiny town. 

But, now that I have allowed myself to question my feelings and after getting feedback from you folks and girl friends, I feel more and more that I am probably transgendered.  I know that emotionally I am a woman and have a woman's brain.  I think it is more of a question of what am I going to do about it at my age and with my situation. 

I said I didn't want breasts, but maybe that is not true because I find myself seeing girls and either loving their outfit or wishing I could look like them.  I've always had man boobies, so maybe its just not as big a thing for me - I don't know yet.  But, I'm not obsessed with it.  Despite what's been said, I'm not obsessed with sex, though I love it, the emotional connection and cuddling is more important to me. 

[Riannah]

Asking questions does not make me obsessed.  I don't relate to sex at all like a man.  I just see a bit more of a connection to sexuality and gender, but everybody is different.

You may not relate to sex like a man, but you do talk about it a lot Nothing wrong with that of course, but I think Yvonne's point is that gender is about identity and not about sexuality. I am like you. Sexually I am only interested in men. I lived as 'gay man' since I was 17, but I never felt comfortable with the word man, nore with being a man. I only had one gay partner (the first), the others were bi/straight. Eventually that - as well as other things - got me thinking.. It took me a long time to understand that there isn't really a connection between sexuality and gender. For me it was and sometimes still is difficult to see those things apart. At some point I asked myself: if I could never ever have sex again, for whatever reason, would I be a man or a woman? I am a woman.

[Rosa]

At some point I asked myself: if I could never ever have sex again, for whatever reason, would I be a man or a woman? I am a woman.

To me it still seems that there is a connection between gender and sexuality.  Maybe I am wrong, or maybe it is due to a culture that has very strong gender roles where men and women of any sexual orientation are expected to conform to the role. 

If I ask myself who I would be if I could never ever have sex again, my first response is:  does it matter?  What is the purpose of gender?  I think I feel like a woman, and though I can often appreciate where men are coming from, I don't really relate. 

I think I'll just have to keep exploring my feminine side and see if that is the real me.  I think I feel like a woman inside, I just don't feel like one on the outside and I don't feel others view me that way, except for a couple girl friends. 

Some of my threads have been about sex, but asking such questions helps me to better understand male and female dichotomy.  I have received a lot of helpful information, and some not so helpful.  SRS is a big thing and I want to fully understand that, which involves asking questions about sex and sex organs.

I know that women think about sex too (my 19 year old girl friend sure does and enjoys it very much) but in a different way and perhaps less frequently than men.

In this forum I've also talked about clothing, Star Trek, love, hair, makeup, etc.  I don't think it is accurate or fair for anyone to say that I am obsessed with sex, unless it is my boyfriend - but he never did.

[spacial]

Wouldn't let Yvonne's comment get to you.

Like most here, I like talking about sex and sexuality. One of the really great things about Susans is that we can without the superlatives that normally accompany it.

For me, I can talk frankly about my personal feelings and know that others are reading them positively, without judgement or any disdain.

The worst bit is when the server is down. 

[Riannah]

If I ask myself who I would be if I could never ever have sex again, my first response is:  does it matter?  What is the purpose of gender?  I think I feel like a man, and though I can often appreciate where men are coming from, I don't really relate. 

I can only speak for myself, but to me it matters a lot!

What is the purpose of gender? To me the purpose of gender is: it is who I am.

Yeah, I guess you should continue to explore your feminine side. It doesn't sound to me like you are ready for transitioning, not at this time anyway, but that's just how it sounds to me. You say you don't feel like a woman on the outside, but I think that many ts felt that way before they started transition. They feel woman on the inside and they make the outside match with the inside. Eventually others would view you as woman too, hopefully. Are you trying to look like a woman on the outside? Do you feel the need to? I personally never visited a ts forum before I wanted to become female on the outside too.

About srs, just try to take one step at a time and not worry too much about what will most likely come next. It's a long process. At this point, I don't want to think about srs too much, but I'm pretty sure I will want it and need it eventually. One step at a time.

I recognise a lot in what you say. The difference between you and me is, I think, that I've come to a point were transition is much more important than anything else, sex for example. I'm willing to give up everything. I can't deny that I hope that I will continue to have a good sex life though. It's human. I just hope that I eventually will be able to have sex the 'right way'.

Of course women think about sex too I wonder why you mention this? Are you affraid of not wanting to ever have sex again if you would transition?

Btw, boyfriends hardly ever complain if their partners want too much sex

[JessicaR]

Keeping in mind that I didn't follow the most acceptable guidelines for transition...
  I always knew that I wanted to be a girl but I never wanted to be Transsexual.....  anything but that! I saw how TS's were portrayed in the media and wanted no part of it.  I hid behind other issues like social anxiety and depression, blaming them for my inability to feel comfortable with myself. I started hormones on my own, without a Dr's supervision, to try and make myself more comfortable while still trying to be the "best man I could be." EPIC FAIL !!!
  What the hormones did was make me even more certain of what I really was inside. After 2 1/2 years, the results were getting really obvious... what started out as a desperate attempt at relieving depression ended up as the unscheduled start of my transition. Now 5 years in and ready for GRS, my only regret is that I didn't do this years ago! Living full time wasn't a "test" at all for me.. it felt so natural... Finally the interface through  which I interacted with the world matched my mindset. I felt like I HAD to transition..... or I couldn't go on living as male.
  Anyway, I think that, at this point in your life, if you're questioning whether or not you're Transsexual, the fact that you're questioning is a good indicator that you may not be so. You could also be Transgendered but not necessarily a candidate for full transition or GRS. It could be argued that "true" transsexuality is pretty near a medical emergency.. Untreated, lots of us are deeply depressed, suicidal and deeply troubled  with our gender identity. Have you ever felt this way? If you were told that you had no choice but to keep on living the way you are, would you be OK with that?
  You talked about the way you felt with a straight guy....  Something I realized in the TS dating scene is that there's no shortage of guys who consider themselves straight who want to date a pre-op T-Girl. What they're really looking for is a way to fulfill their gay or bisexual needs without having to admit to themselves that they're not straight. The way you felt as the  more passive or submissive person in the relationship doesn't make you trans, it just means that you prefer the more passive role. That role is present in all types of relationships.  It's really the way you feel in the ABSENCE of a relationship that points toward your gender identity.
  At any rate, keep exploring here and with your therapist... BTW, if you want a therapist that specializes in gender but can't find one locally, there are gender therapists that will meet with you once in person and conduct subsequent sessions by phone, all the way up to hormone and GRS approvals. Here's one in Pittsfield, Mass:
http://www.affirmativecounseling.net/
This is just one of many but do seek out a specialist else you might have to educate your therapist in gender issues.      BTW, ANY therapist or psychologist that tells you that gender identity OR homosexuality is a, "lifestyle choice," should be told to go back to school and outed for their lack of professionalism. Medicine is NO place for religion-based hogwash.

   You'll figure it out    and groups like this one will be here for you either way.