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And now, rise for our national anthem(s)

Started by Alyx., July 04, 2010, 04:45:33 PM

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Alyx.

Warning: Potentially offensive.

AMERICA: **** YEAH!:



I am a real American:



...Oh, you were expecting our actual national anthem? Sure, why not?

The Star Spangled Banner:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6q8e1DKXj-Y&feature=related#

Happy Independence day Americans!
If you do not agree to my demands... TOO LATE
  •  

Janet_Girl

Just a couple you forgot.

God Bless The USA.


And for our men and women serving over seas

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tekla

The best part about the USA is that every bit of every single one of those is true.  Turns out, it's a big county.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

saint

And god bless all the iraqi's and afghani's.  God bless everyone actually.
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spacial

Bush seems to have managed, what Reagan didn't, namely to revive the gung ho in the US.

Whereas, previously, there were generally some voices calling for common sense, now, these seem to be largely silent. Perhaps fearful of retribution.

The rest of the world watches in sadness as America charges down this route. Oblivious to the rest of the world. Seemingly thinking the rest of the world doesn't count.

While even the majority in the UK are expressing deep regret at the utterly pointless, mass destruction of the ancient civilisations in Iraq and Afghanistan. seemingly, America continues to dilude itself that this had some purpose, some point, other than to make those responsible, Blair, Bush and others, very rich.

The needless deaths of over a million people are being bushed aside. Human rights are defended while being denied to any of the survivors.

The lies, WMDs; capture bin Laden; the utterly false claims that the Taliban were refusing to extradite him; the ignorance of the restoration of the heroin trade, abolished by the Taliban. These continue along with the suffering of innocent people whose only crime is to be born there.

Seems America needs enemies to hate to stop it hating itself.
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Cindy

I love the American people, well some of them ^-^. I even married one, and I adore her. I do respect the 'police' effect America tries to have on the world but sadly it is often (always?) undermined by the capitalistic opportunists who seem to be behind so many of the policies. And then another young man and another young woman is killed or maimed. They I cry for; they I love and respect without issue, no matter what the policy.

And then another fat b******d gets wealthy from the blood.

Sorry.

I do wish all my USA friends a happy Independence day.


Cindy 
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tekla

If the only think you know about the US is what you read in the mass-media, then pretty much (like all other mass media topics) you really don't know anything.

You only see and know what others want you to see and know.  If you were over here you'd know there is not one US, not ten.  But thousands and thousands.  The US is Santa Cruz and Beverly Hills, California and it's also Elko Nevada and Bed-Sty New York.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

Bam

As a wounded U.S.Marine Vietnam Vet they were great!!!! Thanks for remembering our Sisters and Brothers in arms who over there today!!!
  •  

spacial

tekla.

I was responding to the tone of the videos.

1917 US enteres WW1 sending 5 million troops. For what purpose?

1941. US enters WW2 sending almost 28 million troops. For what purpose?

1950 US enters Korean war 480000 troops. For what purpose?

1960 US in Vietnam war. 550000 troops. For what purpose?

2003 US in Iraq war. 160000 troops. For what purpose?

The US is being encouraged to see itself as a sort of World Policeman. The guardians of freedom.

Yet the clear reality is the US people are being used as cannon fodder to sort out European problems. Mostly British problems.

The US has no interest in any of these places. The US was under no threat by any of these conflicts. The claim that the US must be vigelent incase it is attacked, is an utter nonsense. No-one can ever hope to do anything more that small scale attacks on the US. 9/11 may bring shudders, but in reality, while the casualites were high, the attacks themselves were petty by war standards.

The American continent is entirely self sufficient. It doesn't need the rest of the world. Everything it needs to function and prosper is already there.

So, why are young, US men and women being regularly asked to fight and die, in conflicts that are of no direct concern to it.

Alliances are based upon mutual need. Europe needs the US to send its young men and women to die for their causes. What benefits do ordinary men and women in the US get out of this?

Defense? The US doesn't need defending. It is impenitrable. It can never be defeated, occupied or destroyed.

The gung-ho mentality serves no purpose for the US other than to make it easier to send decent young American men and women to die and suffer in other people's wars.

And make a load of cash for some.

Addition.

I have some figures which demonstrate that the average American pays more in taxes from his pay than the average Briton.

Briton get a pretty good health service and a pretty comprehensive welfare state for our taxes.

What does America get? A Kick ass military. To fight other people's wars.
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tekla

1917 US enteres WW1 sending 5 million troops. For what purpose?
Well, because as a few centuries of history up to that point pretty much proves out ever 20-30 years or so Europe was quite incapable of defending itself, against itself.  They were incapable of defending themselves because, as a few centuries of history up to that point pretty much proves out ever 20-30 years or so Europe was quite incapable of governing itself.  We left, and sure enough, not 20 years later, WHAMO!...

1941. US enters WW2 sending almost 28 million troops. For what purpose?
Largely because Hitler was not only crazy, but also a frickin' idiot.  The rest of Europe did little to stop his rise (and a HELLA lot to contribute to it), and were powerless to stop him once he got rolling - save Russia and the English Channel, and even that was proving not much help.  Had he not been an idiot he would have severed the Axis before Japan bombed Pearl Harbor, as a result he would not have been obligated to declare war on the US, and give the US reason to return the favor.  And, pretty much, you'd be writing this to me in German.

1950 US enters Korean war 480000 troops. For what purpose?
To defend South Korea (the division of the two was the collective fault of the US and the Russians) against an armed invasion, this action was asked for by the UN.

And no matter what the purpose was, this was the result, tell me where you'd rather be.
http://www.atr.org/userfiles/korea-by-night.jpg
That's a sattalite photo of Korea at night.

But you could always ask Barbie.  She lives right there.

1960 US in Vietnam war. 550000 troops. For what purpose?
Nobody knows except to say it was the cumulative result of thousands of bad decisions throughout the US government.

2003 US in Iraq war. 160000 troops. For what purpose?
For the oil of course.  Do think we'd be there if they didn't have it, weren't in the middle of all of it, and the West is addicted to the stuff, so think of it as protecting your dealer if you're a junkie.

I hope that was helpful.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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spacial

Thank you Tekla.

Yet no-where is there any indication that America was at any risk.

The US troops have been used as mercenaries. They have not been defending their country, as they have been frequently told. They have not been defending their freedom, since this is not at risk by any of these wars.

It is appreciated that Korea would be a very different place now if the intervention had not taken place and no-one would wish that on anyone. But was it America's responsibility?

I'm trying to point out to you that you've been used. Not to defend your homeland or yourselves, but to do other people's dirty work.

These sorts of videos and other events promote the notion of a powerful nation, kicking ass. Yet the reality is that Americans are dying. Americans are paying. And who takes the flack when things go wrong?

And this has come at a price to you. Not just in the enormous numbers of American lives cut short, not just in the huge numbers of decent young Americans driven to the point of insanity that they behave in ways that are completely out of character, but in personal monitory cost.

Was this the independance that your founding fathers dreamed of?





Below is a relative tax computation I did in 2007. It demonstrates that Amercians are paying more in taxes than Britons.

I've showed it to a large number of people and posted it several times in different parts of the net. No-one has ever found any fault with it.

I did this at a time when the dollar/pound exchange rate was 2$ - £1. Anyone who has ever done international travel will tell you that exchange rates don't reflect value. The real reflection of value is based upon relative buying power. Prices for goods varies by a number of factors, not least local availability. But the notional value, in terms of buying power of the pound compared to the dollar is about 2 to 1.

In the US, you all pay federal taxes. But state taxes vary enormously. Some states take most of their income from indirect taxes, others, mostly from direct. Moreover, some states have higher expenditures than others.

I chose New York because it's state taxes, in 2007, were about average for US states. Slightly under infact.

Also, New York has about the 3rd highest population density of US states.

I chose a single person. This is because tax allowances for people with children in the US are , generally more generous than in the UK. Also, this notional person has no aditional deductions to make against tax. Again, this was done to avoid complicaions based upon local proirities.


Quote
Example of a tax computation
Income tax:

$40,000 (adjusted gross income)
$7,550 × 0.10 = $755
($30,650 - $7,550) × 0.15 = $3,465
($40,000 - $30,650) × 0.25 = $2,337.50
Total income tax = $6,557.50 (16.39% of income)
Note that in addition to income tax, a wage earner would also have to pay FICA (payroll) tax (and an equal amount of FICA tax must be paid by the employer):

$40,000 (adjusted gross income)
$40,000 × 0.062 = $2,480 (Social Security portion)
$40,000 × 0.0145 = $580 (Medicare portion)
Total FICA tax = $3,060 (7.65% of income)
Total federal tax of individual = $9,617.50 (24.04% of income)


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_tax_levels

New York 6.02%




US

Example of a tax computation for single person, no dependants, living in New York earning $40,000

Total income tax = (16.39% of income)

Note that in addition to income tax, a wage earner would also have to pay FICA (payroll) tax (and an equal amount of FICA tax must be paid by the employer):
Total FICA tax = (7.65% of income)
Total federal tax of individual = (24.04% of income)

All states impose their own state taxes which are in addition to federal taxes. These vary between states but New York is about average at 6.02%.

State taxes range from 2.34% to 10.66%. The US average is 5.71. New York is 6.02%

Total tax bill for single person, no dependants, living in New York earning $40,000 x 30.06% = $12024

Americans pay income tax on every dollar they earn so the total tax bill will be 30.06% of $40,000


UK

Single person, no dependants earning £20,000.

Income Tax 22%

National Insurance 11% (12.8% is paid by employers).

Total tax 33%

In the UK every tax payer has a personal allowance before tax is payable. For a single person with no dependants this currently stands at £5225.  http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/rates/it.htm

So, taxable pay will be £14,775 x 33% = £4875.75

4875.75 / 20,000 = 24%

The UK tax payer pays 24% of his total pay in tax as opposed to the US tax payer who pays 30.06%
  •  

LordKAT

You are mistaken on a few points. Major point is personal deduction of taxable income. Last tax season this was a standard of $9300. It is possible to change that amount to higher depending on circumstances.
  •  

tekla

Yet no-where is there any indication that America was at any risk.

Gee, we entered WWII on December 8th, 1941.  (War was declared against Nazi Germany on Dec 11, owing to that whole 'waiting for them to act first' deal)  Let me think, what might have happened on December 7th or before.

The total destabilization of Europe in the way it would have occurred had the US not entered WWI was a great risk to the US.  As would be the loss of oil, which would be (will be) catastrophic not just in the US, but also would result in a massive world-wide die-off the likes of which the world hasn't seen since the Black Death Euro Tour (1348-1350).

Visualize industrial collapse and you'll see what I mean.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

spacial

Quote from: LordKAT on July 06, 2010, 04:57:03 PM
You are mistaken on a few points. Major point is personal deduction of taxable income. Last tax season this was a standard of $9300. It is possible to change that amount to higher depending on circumstances.

My information is that such deductions can only be made on additional sources of income, other than wage or on other committments, such as family, college debts and certain others.

Reading my last post, I negleted to say that this is a wage income, as most people earn wages.

But the substantive point remains. Americans pay considerable amounts in tax to pay for a military that is predominatly concerned with fighting other people's wars. Wars that have nothing to do with the US.

It manages to do this with the encouragement of most, (seemingly) Americans because they are hyped up on notions of pride in being strong together with specious claims about defending homeland and freedom.


Quote from: tekla on July 06, 2010, 05:02:48 PM


The total destabilization of Europe in the way it would have occurred had the US not entered WWI was a great risk to the US.  As would be the loss of oil, which would be (will be) catastrophic not just in the US, but also would result in a massive world-wide die-off the likes of which the world hasn't seen since the Black Death Euro Tour (1348-1350).

Visualize industrial collapse and you'll see what I mean.

The Americas are entirely self sufficent. They can easily exist as an isolated unit.

Destabilisation of Europe, even if this had happened, would have had little impact on the Americas, if they had maintained their isolationist policies.

I disagree with you that Europe would have been destabilised however. It wouldn't have been very plesent. But that is a different issue.

America doesn't actually need foreign oil. There is ample oil in the Americas. South America has some of the largest wells in the world.

In any case, necessity is the mother of invention.

Post Merge: July 06, 2010, 05:57:13 PM

According to this site

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_proven_oil_reserves

The Americas hold about 24.43% of the world's current oil reserves.

Granted this is a modern figure. But it indicates that the Americas are not as dependant on foreign oil as it might seem
  •  

tekla

You have a unique sense of history and economics.
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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confused

ok i'm not american  but i do have an admiration for the american culture as well as people (of course everywhere has good and bad people )
now it might not be my place but i have something to say
first: criticizing your country only means that you love it and want it to be the best , you want it to be flawless,like i do for my own country , but it doesn't mean that everything it did through history was wrong
also , it's practically impossible that everything it did was write

now , being a person who is totally against war as a conflict resolution , i totally find it totally a good thing that US was involved in WW2 because otherwise , the world would have been a ..let's just say a different place
but then i personally find it awful to waste a lot of lives in the vietnam war , creating a big trauma for american people  , i mean whatever the reason was , i'm sure it wasn't that necessary

and that was a different era
the modern era now has the iraqie and afghanie wars
personally , i think the afghanstan war was politically justified ,and there's really nothing to say about it , except that bush administration should have made it more clear that the war was against taliban not muslims as they formed the vast majority of that area as well as the middle east ,and that gave everybody the wrong idea about everything one way or the other. but eventually it went ok

then the iraq war which is the only one that happened while i was old enough to follow the news of a war so i'm going to elaborate on that one

until this very moment , i'm personally sure that it had a hidden agenda other than 'oil' (which btw is no reason to cause the death of one human soul)
because... before , america was supporting saddam's regime because he was always at war with iran , draining their power , but things changed ,and due to a lot of factors it seemed like a better idea to be there ,  USA doesn't really need oil , and invading iraq didn't even make that much of a difference as for the availability of iraqi oil because , well , Iraqi people would sell it anyway . the war did control the price of course , but the US administration then spend more than the US could possibly gain out of that war , so i really think it was a war about control or power over countries like iran
so after all  what this last war did is
-caused the death of a lot of people for unclear ,unjustified reasons imho
-  cause i really bad economic collapse ,poverty ,unemployment all over the world not only in the US, in a way that hasn't happened since the great depression in 1929 iirc
-gave the wrong impression about the US to people in a lot of places in the world -especially of course the mid east- that america actually hates them arabs and/or muslims so they hated it "back" it created something like a hate wave among a large portion of people towards america which hasn't really disappeared untill bush's era was over and because of the more 'political' methods obama uses

anyway , away from politics , America is a really unique country as well as continent, with a unique history and  for me it represents the modern civilization (of course that doesn't mean it's the only civilized country but you know what i mean )and represents freedom , not that people there are free , but because they faught hard to get it and to create such a great country  and every place in the world has it's beauty ,greatness and representation , and every place has it's uniqueness , and every place have reasons to be loved for
so apart from everything i do love all the world (and i'm not high btw lol)

one more thing , if i offended anyone i honestly didn't mean to as i was being completely honest about this
  •  

LordKAT

Standard deduction is for any income, right off the top.
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tekla

People who pay that tax rate published above are either a) too stupid or lazy to really take advantage of the tax laws, or b) just don't care.  I know a few of each.  I also know plenty of people making $50K plus a year who don't pay a dime of income tax (SSI and the rest they do pay). 
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
  •  

spacial

Quote from: tekla on July 06, 2010, 07:44:03 PM
You have a unique sense of history and economics.

I've obviously made an impression on you. When you stop thinking you become a tool. And when you don't think because of the fear of the derision of those that claim to be wiser, then you become a willingly oppressed slave.

It is, indeed sad that, with so many intelegent people, Americans seem unable to ask the most basic question, why?


Quote from: LordKAT on July 06, 2010, 09:31:33 PM
Standard deduction is for any income, right off the top.

As I've pointed out already, I have found no evidece of this.

As I've also pointed out, however you construe the figures, Americans are paying huge amounts for a kick-ass military whose sole purpose is to fight other people's wars.




Quote from: tekla on July 06, 2010, 09:49:46 PM
People who pay that tax rate published above are either a) too stupid or lazy to really take advantage of the tax laws, or b) just don't care.  I know a few of each.  I also know plenty of people making $50K plus a year who don't pay a dime of income tax (SSI and the rest they do pay).

You may be right.

But the computations are notional for comparitive purposes. They are based upon a notional standard wage, to a notional single worker, without any additional claims for deductions.

This is for comparitive purposes. That is the point of a notional assessment. Duh!  ;D
  •  

tekla

They are based upon a notional standard wage, to a notional single worker, without any additional claims for deductions.

Right, and give our tax system, that person doesn't exist.  I'm here to tell you that the greatest bureaucrats in Byzantium would bow low before our tax code and confess that they knew nothing about creating a Byzantine system.

The complete Internal Revenue Code is more than 24 megabytes in length, and contains more than 3.4 million words; printed 60 lines to the page, it would fill more than 7500 letter-size pages.  Hell, just downloading the Table of Contents for the sucker takes 300K.

At any rate, I'm sure you will enjoy this read.
No longer has war anything to do with the taking of territory either, or even with direct conquest. War is increasingly a state of being, not a process with a beginning, an end, and an actual geography.

Similarly drained of its traditional meaning has been the word "security" -- though it has moved from a state of being (secure) to an eternal, immensely profitable process whose endpoint is unachievable. If we ever decided we were either secure enough, or more willing to live without the unreachable idea of total security, the American way of war and the national security state would lose much of their meaning. In other words, in our world, security is insecurity
.
http://www.alternet.org/module/printversion/147428
FIGHT APATHY!, or don't...
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