What constitues a Post Op?

[Julie Marie]

The following is my opinion, nothing more...

What ever gender you identify with is what makes you male or female.  Physical appearance has nothing to do with it until.......

you are judged by the public.  That is changing, but ever so slowly.

I've often wondered if society was completely ant totally accepting of MTF and FTM people, there was no negative stigma, no prejudice, no discrimination, it was just as natural as breathing... would we still want FFS, SRS or other surgeries?  You wouldn't need them to pass because passing wouldn't be an issue in avoiding the stigma, prejudice, etc because there would be none.

Where I'm going is, if we wouldn't need the surgeries because they wouldn't be required to pass in every situation, then our brain gender is all that would truly define us.  And I believe that.  Being post op will allow me to blend into the world of women, including in the locker room.  That's important to me if I want to be seen as a normal member of this society.  And I do.

Bi-gendered brainwashing begins at birth and it's so deeply ingrained in us we often can't see that it's our brain, not our body, that defines who we are and that includes gender.  But I am not saying I wouldn't have SRS because I don't know how much the brainwashing is affecting my decision.

Again, this is only my opinion.  I hope I didn't confuse anyone though.

Julie

[tinkerbell]

Why would a woman want to retain a penis?

Um, maybe she is turned on by them and wants easy access to one.   I can't really say for sure, since I have never particularly liked them on me nor anyone else, but especially on me.

Melissa

If a "transsexual woman"  wants to keep that *thing* there because *it* turns  them on or enjoys using *it*,  I'm sorry to say but that person IS NEITHER transsexual NOR a woman.


tinkerbell

[Steph]

Steph wrote
"
However I don't think that an ochi can be considered as gender reassignment surgery.  And I would also question a MtF's motives for not wanting full GRS after an ochi.  Why would a woman want to retain a penis?
"
  So in other words for those who are unable to afford a FULL SRS in one swipe of the knife, they should have to endure perhaps years if not a life time of living in the Gender Twilight Zone! Personally I find that most appauling and most certainly un-sympathetic to the under priviledged within our ranks. As to PENIS retention I seroiusly doubt if anyone after having undergone an orchiectomy would truly have a desire to keep it, however; not everyone has the fiscal resources to move to the final stage swiftly. Its no wonder so precious little gets done to advance the cause of transexualism when the very ones who have battled it support the very views of the society that causes the oppression to begin with.  Two or three years ago I read several generalized articles written about  transexuals. At the time I thought to myself what BS this stuff is. Since then its become rather painfully aware to me that they had it right in way more ways then not. It really saddens me to see that.

Byee,
  Brina

I'm not going to joust with you Brina, but you are not reading my words.  Nowhere do I mention anything about money what I did say and I quote

And I would also question a MtF's motives for not wanting full GRS after an ochi.  Why would a woman want to retain a penis?

Notice the words "not wanting" and "want  to retain".  Nowhere do I support societies views of TS, nowwhere do I mention finance or related issues, but I would add that until GRS is funded by the state, a TS facing GRS should be doing every thing possible to get the funds to do it even if it means working three to four jobs.

And I how can you possibly say that precious little gets done to advance the cause of TSism, I don't quite know what you are getting at and to who or what your remarks refer.

And for the record I'll restate that I do not suport any notion that an ochi is Gender reasignment surgery, but that GRS is as outlined by Tinkerbell in her post "...that there has to be a vaginal cavity present along with labia, a repositioned urethra, and a clitoris...."  What is so wrong with that?

Steph

[tinkerbell]

And for the record I'll restate that I do not suport any notion that an ochi is Gender reasignment surgery
Steph

Of course it isn't!  There are many men who undergo orchiectomies for a number of medical conditions.  Does this mean that they have undergone gender reassignment surgery then?

tinkerbell

[Melissa]

Why would a woman want to retain a penis?

Um, maybe she is turned on by them and wants easy access to one.   I can't really say for sure, since I have never particularly liked them on me nor anyone else, but especially on me.

Melissa

If a "transsexual woman"  wants to keep that *thing* there because *it* turns  them on or enjoys using *it*,  I'm sorry to say but that person IS NEITHER transsexual NOR a woman.

You are mincing my words.  First of all it was meant to be a joke suggestion.  Secondly, I was saying she is turned on by penises in general and for whatever reason, she may want to have easy access to one and is keeping it only out of convenience.  Honestly though, I can't imagine any woman wanting to retain one for whatever reason.

Melissa

[HelenW]

It doesn't become gender reassignment until you start to live as the target gender, in my opinion.

I could get a vaginoplasty and all the trimmings and if I continue to present and live as a man has my gender really been reassigned?

Sex reassignment it may be but not gender reassignment.

An orchie is an operation.  So, if I have one then I'll be a "post-op."  If I live and present as a female then I'll have had my gender "reassigned" no matter what state the plumbing is in or what feelings I have about it.  And unless I win the lottery or my relatives die and leave me a small fortune that'll be all I'll get and all I'll need.

hugs & smiles
helen

[Buffy]

Interesting Question.

Under the UK Gender Recognition Act 2004, you can legally change your Gender on your birth certificate if you have lived for 2 years minimum after name and documentation changes and with two medical reports from experts on an approved list issued by the Gender Recognition panel.

There is no prerequisite to have Gender Reassignment Surgery as part of this recognition process in order to change your birth certificate, just a formal diagnosis of Transsexualism (or GID) and to meet the criteria.

Orchidectomy in my opinion is just a surgical method to remove testosterone from the body and Post Op, as Tinkerbell has said, full Gender Reassignment Surgery involves removal of the male sex organs and construction of a neo-vagina.

Buffy

[Stormy Weather]

To put it most BLUNTLY I am most saddened by the responses.

Why start a discussion if you expect everyone to agree with you? You asked, we said.

I'm sorry if this is going to upset some people, but I'm very rigorous about these sorts of things. We can argue until we're blue in the face, but I would think to most people here 'post-op' means just one thing. But as others point out, being 'post-op' says nothing about your acceptance by other women as a woman but that's not we're talking about.

The perceived desire to even apply that label to yourself says more about you than it does about others.

Personally, I'm getting a bit fed-up with the dilution of the real-life test, blurring of definitions and other compromises that people take on in order to call themselves one thing or another. But as I said, I'm old-skool about this; more than ever, after years of scoffing at the notion, I've come round to believe in those old definitions of 'primary' and 'secondary' TS. I may get flamed for this but that's just the way I feel.

[brina]

Hiee,

 Firstly to clarrify issues here. I am scheduled to have vagiano,labia, and clitia plasty with Dr. Sanguan in Phuket Thailand on October 9,2007. I have recieved an e-mail from someone including a photo of their results from him. I have been disturbed by the photo and have since forwarded it to Dr. Sanguan and inguiring as to what happened. I expect to hear an explanation of why the results are as they are OR that he DIDN'T perform the sugory in question!

 I have had my Radical Orchiectomy and it was performed AS an Transexual Surgory and not for any other Underlying conditions! I required a letter from my Pychiatrist stating that I was indeed diagnosed as being G.I.D. of the male to female type before the Urologist would proceed with the operation. My endocrine system has been irreverseably changed now so that I MUST take estrogen or face menopause. As menopause IS NOT a male condition then it is a female condition and in this case brought about by the orchiectomy and therefor a GENDER CHANGING operation. In that light I have been able to change my gender and NOW will be able to return to Ft. McMurray and live in the camp without any undue harrasement from the men there. This will afford me the opportunity to proceed with getting my Cosmetic SRS which other wise I might not have been able to DO. I am the first to admit that I am limited in certain activities that I can partake in. These all are centered around any situation where I might be nude in front of other NATAL woman. As this would cause me great discomfort as well as discomfort to them I will have to avoid them in the short forseeable future. I might POINT OUT AT THIS POINT THAT THIS IS PURELY BASED UPON APPEARNCE AND NOT UPON BIOLOGY.

 For those of you who have been able to AFFORD having the Orchiectomy AND Vagionoplasty simultaneouosly and demand it as a pre-requisite for Gender Change, I say that you are incredibly (perhaps Ignorant ?),Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric to name a few and it disgusts me.

 For the person who mentioned working 3 and 4 jobs, I might point out that not everyone has a nice plushy office environment to work in.

 Oh screw it I'm REALLY REALLY Disgusted at the moment!

Good bye
 Brina

[Stormy Weather]

For those of you who have been able to AFFORD having the Orchiectomy AND Vagionoplasty simultaneouosly and demand it as a pre-requisite for Gender Change, I say that you are incredibly (perhaps Ignorant ?),Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric to name a few and it disgusts me.

Your original question was:

What constitutes a post-op?

I believe most people in this thread have answered that question on those terms. Getting upset about other things, other terms and definitons, isn't going to help.

[brina]

POST OP is intrinsically tied into having ones gender records changed which in a round about and perhaps tricky way was my attempt at getting to the gist of the mentallity as so expressed.

Byee,
  Brina

[Stormy Weather]

POST OP is intrinsically tied into having ones gender records changed which in a round about and perhaps tricky way was my attempt at getting to the gist of the mentallity as so expressed.

So, even though I've had GRS, full vaginoplasty and two follow-up ops and live mostly in stealth, I'm not considered post-op because I haven't got round to getting my birth certificate or passport changed yet? Even though all my other ID has been and also my name by deed poll?

Sorry, but I'm just not following the point you are trying to make.

[brina]

OK perhaps I should have said BEING ABLE to have those records changed. Although I do wonder why one would not get their birthrecord changed relatively quickly but I have yet to have my trade license diploma and wallet card changed to my new name and that is simply a matter of laziness on my part.

  What pisses me off is the HANG UP on APPEARANCES. It was appearances that started this whole crock for me in the first place. I had male genitalia when born and so I was designated as male, well guess WHAT as it turns out I'm ACTUALLY FEMALE. Given that this is something that M->F's have to battle from the begining and all thru transiton, how stupid can they be to buy into it in the end!!!!!!!!!!!
I guess I better get off before I write something I may later regret.

Byee,
  Brina

Edit: Language - Kate

[Stormy Weather]

Although I do wonder why one would not get their birthrecord changed relatively quickly

Because I no longer live permanently in the country of my birth and organising a lawyer from 12,000 miles away to handle the bureaucracy hasn't been a top priority until relatively recently. No need to wonder anymore. 

[Steph]

For those of you who have been able to AFFORD having the Orchiectomy AND Vagionoplasty simultaneouosly and demand it as a pre-requisite for Gender Change, I say that you are incredibly (perhaps Ignorant ?),Selfish,Shortsighted and Egocentric to name a few and it disgusts me.

  For the nincumpoop who mentioned working 3 and 4 jobs, I might point out that not everyone has a nice plushy office environment to work in.

  Oh screw it I'm REALLY REALLY Disgusted at the moment!

Good bye
  Brina

Brina, no one here has demanded anything they, and I include myself, simply expressed opinions to your posts.

Oh yes as for working 3 and 4 jobs what on earth is wrong with that, I worked 3 myself, no one gave me any handouts, I didn't have a cushy office job, and what does working in an office have to do with anything, paying work is paying work, it matters not if you are picking up garbage from the gutters of the streets or a CEO, work is work.

Steph

[Melissa]

The prevailing response was, when one hears "post-op", full SRS is assumed.  If you feel happy calling yourself a post-op, then go ahead.  Just don't expect people to realize you only mean an orchi when you say "I'm post-op".

Melissa

[brina]

Brina, no one here has demanded anything they, and I include myself, simply expressed opinions to your posts.

 The demand is partially implied. Given that to be able to change ones gender records requires one to have undergone a gender changing surgory and the prevailing response has been that UNLESS ONE HAS BOTH AN ORCHIECTOMY AND VAGIANOPLASTY then a gender change has not occured. Perhaps this is the badge of honour (questionable in my mind) that so many pre-ops complain about. I suppose for those who have had the Big 'O' and those who intend to have it in the very near future and have the resources for it they see no particular problems with the status quo. There is a reason why only 10 to 15% of diagnosed transexuals ever get to have surgory. Those who do either have the fiscal resources and/or have been able to jump thru the various hoops set before them by their respective government medical bodies and achieved state funding. What about the other 85 to 90% who this doesn't apply to?
The general consensus from the posts here seems to be to bad if your in gender limbo and run into discrimination and aren't protected by male or female human rights legislation. If you fail to achieve what I have its a shame. At the very least these 'Opinions/Attitudes' come accross to me as nothing short of being cruel and elitist in fundamental nature. These idea's in Canada I find very worrisome as its quite conceivable that the legislators might begin to think 'well if transexuals themselves think this way' then perhaps we should rethink our current policies (RE: turn back the clock).
 I think I will go back to simply livng my life and not be overly bothered with the BS anymore. I have taken one TS into my home when she was facing eviction and life perhaps on the street. While her welfare doesn't cover all her expenses here it does help somewhat and I'm not going super in debt by having her here. Perhaps some day she will up and leave and I'll never see a penny of the added expenses, but it won't be the first time I've been burned in that respect. I will know though that I helped a sister when she was in trouble.

Byee,
 Brina

[SusanKay140]

Hmmm ... let me venture a toe out in traffic here.  There's no debate here about me being post-op; I've had no surgeries, no real life experience (as female), no hormones, no therapist.  I guess it's not rocket science to list my understanding of a course of action, at least for me:

A.   Keep my marriage together.
B.   Help my wife deal with this (and she is very supportive, but it is still a real real life experience).
C.   Consultation with a Therapist.
D.   Sufficient understanding of my condition to proceed or stop.
E.   Electrolysis and/or other hair removal.
F.   Hormone treatment.
G.   Coming out to certain family and friends.
H.   Coming out to job, or trade it in for either a more accepting work atmosphere,
      or in a bit over a year I qualify for early Social Security (my pink parachute!)  >
I.    Two years Real Life Experience.
J.    Orchiectomy.
K.    S.R.S.
L.    F.F.S.
M.   Sit back and enjoy the results.  Well, not actually.

Hey, lined out like that it doesn't sound so hard (Susan Kay ducks many thrown objects from the forum, leaping very unlady-like behind the couch.)

So, anyway, where in this list would I consider myself Post-Op?  Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn!  For me, life has never been a project to be completed; I would not ever expect to complete transition, even if I was starting at puberty; it's a lifetime experience.  But, to answer the original, at first glance, innocuous, question, I think it applies to any person that has had one set of genitals removed and at least minimal genitals of the opposite sex installed TO THAT PERSON'S SATISFACTION!

Susan Kay

Just reviewing my list, and this is what I hate about lists, I forgot the legal aspects.  I'll shoe-horn them in there some place, keeping in mind that I was born in Ohio, and I understand that they don't allow that appropriate and humane change.

[brina]

I do wonder why one would not get their birthrecord changed relatively quickly

Brina, not all of us are fortunate enough to have been born in a country or a state that lets you change your birth certificate relatively quickly.  Here, in the US, not all states (except for California and a few others) will reissue you a new birth certificate even after full SRS.  Other states will amend a birth certificate stating your new sex but will not issue you a new one.  It is also important to mention that in many other foreign countries, transsexuals are not able to change any documentation whatsoever, and they are doomed to live their lives with indentifying documents which don't match who they are and what they look like even after gender reassignment surgery.

it matters not if you are picking up garbage from the gutters of the streets or a CEO, work is work.

tinkerbell

Yes Tink I am aware of that. The changes have to start somewhere. Fortunately I live in a country that seems to have some compasson for the plight of transexuals in transiton an has amended the appropriate legislation.
Perhaps in time and seeing by example other jurisdictions will see that the 'TroobieGirl' is actually a myth after all and will finally amend the legislation in their respect jurisdictions.

Speaking for myself, now that I am legally female in the eyes of the government, then my transition has certainly been made much easier in that I am now covered under the human rights codes of all jurisdictions as a female. This in turn has opened up possibilities that will now afford me the opportunity to EARN the money I NEED to proceed with my final operation to bring me Physically inline with my Perception of myself as well as Societies Perception of what I should look like.

I find it revolting that other T's would be of the opinion that I should not be allowed to do this and in effect be supportive of having a road block in my way or at the least making life more difficult then it already is. I consider myself to be reasonably well positioned in life and know the difficulties I have had to date, and at the same time know that many of my sisters are in even more difficult positions. Maybe now some will understand my derogatory remarks a bit better. I Stand by What I Have Said.

I do not write platitudes on these boards. What I write comes from the heart. For those of you on the opposite side then myself, then I suppose by default we are enemies. While I don't enjoy making enemies, it is a fact of life when trying to bring about change.

One last thing before closing, 'Work is NOT Work'. I wonder how many who have made that remark would last in working in -25C (18F) temperatures for 7 hours per day and slip sliding thru a foot or so of snow or even better yet working 50,100 or 200 feet above the ground standing on nothing more then a frosty 1 3/4'' tube and relying on nothing more then a safety harness and life line to protect you from a sudden stop at ground level if you were to fall, not to mention that if one does fall rescue has a time window of 15 to 20 minutes to get you down before death is likely from having blood pool in your legs. This is a far cry from being in a sheltered environment that may or may not be heated and being able to sit down off and on during the course of the day.
I make reasonable wages due to a collective agreement. I do know that many of my sisters have neither a post-secondary education nor a trade and therefor their potential wage earnings are even lower. To throw that in their face with remarks such as well work 3 or 4 jobs is simply nothing short of flippant in my mind. Or is transexualism and the ability to transtion and reach some degree of peace with oneself now limited only to the upper echelon of society?

Byee,
  Brina

[Steph]

.... I do know that many of my sisters have neither a post-secondary education nor a trade and therefor their potential wage earnings are even lower. To throw that in their face with remarks such as well work 3 or 4 jobs is simply nothing short of flippant in my mind. Or is transexualism and the ability to transtion and reach some degree of peace with oneself now limited only to the upper echelon of society?

Byee,
  Brina

Hmmmm I guess this was directed at me...  I didn't graduate from high school, I worked three jobs, and while those jobs may not be seen as work according to what was outlined in the previous post (-25C (18F) temperatures for 7 hours per day) etc.  I feel that any job is worth while.  I don't have a trade, I worked my butt off to get every penny I've ever had, I picked potatoes, and cleaned and fileted fish and worked in a copper mill.  I really don't see where working in the extremes that were outlined makes that type work more important than anyone else's.  Folks do what they are able to, I would never say that the work that I do is more important, or more significant than that done by others.  An honest wage for an honest days work is all we can hope for.  But I feel that we are digressing from the topic of what constitutes a post op, and I've made my feeling know on that issue.

Steph