Why Transition?

[Cailyn]

I have spent the past eighteen months sliding very quickly down the slippery slope from complete denial of my transsexuality to living full time as a woman.  In that time, I have spent considerable time pondering the differences between men and women and--ignoring the stereotypical definitions of men and women--you come to realize there is very little difference between the two theoretically beyond the obvious physical differences (men cannot bear children, etc).  Men can be very much like women and women can be like men and do what were once considered "male" things.  Men can be sensitive and women can be assertive and so on in an endless list of stereotypes that can be torn down. 

Given that men could exist in what what could be considered a female state of dress, speech, and mannerisms without actually transitioning, it begs the question: why transition?  Why not assume the female identity you want without actually putting that "F" on your drivers licence.  Tell your friends, family, and co-workers but adopt no artifice of the opposite gender that isn't natural, ie a female voice or undergo electrolysis (women DO have facial hair).  Since this is rhetorical, let's skip the implications of GRS.  I have my own answer but I wonder what the rest of you think.

Cailyn

[stephanie_craxford]

oh - ho 

Just kidding Cailyn.

I think that one of the big reasons why we transition is that for some is that we change the outside appearance to indicate to others that we are of the gender displayed, and anyone can do that, and there are lots who do.  But I don't think that meets our internal needs.  I believe the internal changes (GRS, HRT, breast removal...) is done for our own well being, maybe to reinforce that mental state of womanhood.  I wouldn't say that it's done to convince ourselves that we are a woman, as we shouldn't need convincing.  But then, authorities require that to have that F or M marker changed you have to go through the ultimate change.  For myself, I am a woman so why would I want anything on my person or part of my person to indicate otherwise, and along with that I know that  my disfigurement has to be corrected, as would anyone with such a thing.

Hmmm I'm not convinced that I've answered your question Cailyn.  I'm very good at expressing my own feelings especially with this type of topic.   

It will be interesting to see the responses you get to this one 

Take care,

Steph

[AmyNYC]

This is a touchy subject, because I think I'm the odd ball out, but what the heck?

I transitioned because I was not a woman before, but I wanted to be one.  I had dressed enfemme before HRT and early in my transition & it did nothing for me, because I didn't feel like a woman.  I felt like a man in drag.  I know the general consensus in this community is, "I have been a woman my entire life.  I'm just fixing a deformity."  I don't feel that way, & I have nothing against people who do feel that way.  To each his own, right?

Maybe I see things too much in black & white, but my therapist loves the way I think, so I think I'm okay.  Before transition I looked like a guy, talked like a guy, walked like a guy, dressed like a guy, was known to everyone as a guy, and most importantly... felt like a guy.  And now knowing the mental differences between a body with testosterone and a body with estrogen, I definitely thought like a guy, too.  As far as I'm concerned, I was most definitely a guy.  But that doesn't discredit the idea that for my entire life I always wanted to be a girl.  Now I am one... almost.  And I'm happy as hell

The most important goal in my transition was to feel like a girl.  If I had already felt like one before transition, yeah, maybe I can see it as fixing a deformity.  But you see... to me, feeling like a girl is so important that if I had felt like one before transition, I don't know if I would have felt the need to transition.

Anyway, sorry if I'm confusing.  Sometimes I have trouble explaining this idea to people.  Speaking of therapy... time to go 

Amy

[Terri-Gene]

Anyway, sorry if I'm confusing.  Sometimes I have trouble explaining this idea to people.

I understand Amy, perfectly.  Even when something actually is, it must be recognized and accepted by those important to you in order for it to take on it's full and complete meaning.  Simply knowing something may be an inner truth, but it's not very satisfying without total and complete inclusion with no restrictions, and in the body of a male, there is going to be restrictions, if anyone wants to argue that, go ahead, waste of time to me, though I often do.

Terri

[VeryGnawty]

Given that men could exist in what what could be considered a female state of dress, speech, and mannerisms without actually transitioning, it begs the question: why transition? Why not assume the female identity you want without actually putting that "F" on your drivers licence.

Honestly, this goes back to the changing the attitude thing I mentioned earlier.  You could present however the hell you want to.  For example, I act androgynously most of the time.  But the actual number of people who treat or view me as androgynous, much less the ones who would ever consider me female, is miniscule.  Apart from a tiny number of friends (who are either gay or transgendered) I'm just some "quirky guy" who uses body language in a way that often makes others uncomfortable.

But humans, for the most part, are social creatures.  We derive a lot of our identity from what others think of us.  Some people may be fine behaving like a female without going through transition.  But realize that it will be very few people who will actually treat you as such.

Of course, one could reason that if someone still treats you "as a guy" when you've stated otherwise, that this person probably isn't a good person to have in your monkeysphere anyway.  I suppose it's better to have one or two true friends, than dozens of acquaintances.  Whatever floats your boat.  There are lots of advantages and disadvantages to having such an attitude.  You have to weigh the options and decide what is best for you.

As always, I believe Walt Whitman says it best.

Walt Whitman (from Leaves of Grass):
"Have you reckoned a thousand acres much? Have you reckoned the earth much? Have you practiced so long to learn to read? Have you felt so proud to get at the meaning of poems? Stop this day and night with me and you shall possess the origin of all poems, You shall possess the good of the earth and the sun....there are millions of suns left, You shall no longer take things at second or third hand....nor look through the eyes of the dead...nor feed on the spectres in books, You shall not look through my eyes either, nor take things from me, You shall listen to all sides and filter them from yourself."

[Kimberly]

Why go though the god awful gut wrenching, heart and bank breaking thing that is transition?

To be happy.

To be myself.

It would be so much easier if just dress, speech and mannerisms would suffice. But to me they do not. They are as empty as the façade I presented to the world for so long.

I require more.

*shrugs*

[amberctm]

You could also look at it like this: Why did I try all of those years acting a masculan as I possibly could, dep voice and all? Just as very naughty put it, were all social creatures, even the most introverted cave beings. We all need social acceptance of one form or another, and to be validated in the strongest possible way. So in the beginning I needed to be accepted and validated as a man, Now its the other way around. In the "T" community there is all diffrent ranges. It all varries on the level of acceptance needed for each individual.
Amber
PS is there a spell checker on this darn thing? 

[Leigh]

Of course, one could reason that if someone still treats you "as a guy" when you've stated otherwise, that this person probably isn't a good person to have in your monkeysphere anyway.  

A person stating they are indeed a woman does not make or even require someone to regard that person as female.  I would have a difficult time using her in reference to a person with a beard no matter how vehement this person was about being female.

[Leigh]

PS is there a spell checker on this darn thing?

Write your post in MS Word then  copy and paste.

[beth]

"Why not assume the female identity you want without actually putting that "F" on your drivers licence."


redneck traffic cops?    



seriously, if you are a woman i don't think you want to be a man that acts and looks like a woman, you want to be yourself as close as is currently possible.

beth

[Terri-Gene]

right, what good does it do to identify as female when all your identification reads male?  all that says is some kind of ...... what?

Terri

[Cailyn]

A person stating they are indeed a woman does not make or even require someone to regard that person as female.  I would have a difficult time using her in reference to a person with a beard no matter how vehement this person was about being female.

There are women with considerable facial hair due to hormone disorders.  What would you call them, especially if they were also butch or genderqueer?  This is a hot issue in some feminist circles:

"These days, women's removal of their facial hair is just another concession in the militarized zones of masculine and feminine, where women must still conform or confront considerable judgement and ridicule".  Aimee Dowl in Bitch.

Your answer surprises me Leigh because you are showing a bias against transwomen/women who don't conform to the rules of the patriarchy.

Cailyn

[VeryGnawty]

I have to agree with Cailyn here.  Not to get confrontational or anything....ok, I lie, I do mean to be confrontational.  But seriously.  There are plenty of women, even genetic women, possibly even one on these forums who are much more "masculine" than me, but that doesn't make them any less of a woman.  Things like facial hair and clothes are simply ways in which people chose to present themselves.  Having facial hair does not make one a guy, and wearing a dress does not make one a girl.

[Leigh]

Ok--I will be specific then. 

A person (MAN) stating they are indeed a woman does not make or even require someone to regard that  person (MAN) as female.  I would have a difficult time using her in reference to a person (MAN) with a beard no matter how vehement this person (MAN) was about being female.

[AmyNYC]

I rarely see people that don't fit easily into male or female, but maybe I'm only seeing people I want to see?  There's a thousands of different kinds of people in NYC, but it's rare that I see one that doesn't fit fairly easily into male or female.
 
The narrow mindedness of others extends far beyond the reaches of gender identity.  I know people that don't like the way I dress.  I know people that don't like the music I listen to.  I know people that don't like some of the friends I keep.  And yes, I have friends that, while they're supportive of my transition, "feel sorry for me", or "wish I could have chosen a different path".

There's no way to please everyone.  That's okay though, because the only person you should aim to please is yourself.

Amy

PS... These friends that feel sorry for me don't understand what's possible in a gender transition.  They think I'm going to live a life of ridicule and discrimation, because they don't realize how passable you can look post-transition.  They can't get their heads around the idea that they may know one or more transsexuals and not even know it.

[lisagurl]

But humans, for the most part, are social creatures.  We derive a lot of our identity from what others think of us.

I am not a social creature and could not care less of what people think. I never played the male role and will only play the female role as related to business.

My 5'6" frame at 125 lbs demanded to be physical female. I have always been unhappy with the male body. Considering the body is only your outside cover and the mind can live the way it chooses. My friends  are on the one to one type relationships and I do not participate in most of societies games. My social self will do what is necessary to survive and my essential self will rule the show.

So far Ive not seen a single post on this forum I could identify with.


[edit]Fixed the "quote" codes[/edit]

[stephanie_craxford]

I am not a social creature and could not care less of what people think. I never played the male role and will only play the female role as related to business.

Hello Lisa,

I must be a little sleepy to day, but I'm not sure what you mean...  You will only "play" the female role as related to business   I don't think that being TS, or transitioning has anything to do with "playing roles" either you are a woman or you're not.  Also if you only "play" the female role as related to business, what do you do out side of business, socially...

Did I miss your point ?

Chat later

Steph

[Terri-Gene]

I am not a social creature and could not care less of what people think. I never played the male role and will only play the female role as related to business.

I would have to take that as literally meaning you do not identify as either a man or as a woman, since "will only play the female role as related to business".  That would only leave you as defining somewhere in the Gender Queer definition, though you do not seem to like that definition either.

My 5'6" frame at 125 lbs demanded to be physical female. I have always been unhappy with the male body.  

since you gave no identity issues associated with this, is it correct to assume you simply considered yourself inadiquate as a male?

My social self will do what is necessary to survive and my essential self will rule the show.

Unless you explain what that means, I can only assume you will be anything you feel you need to be in order to deal with the social view of yourself, but there is no indication of what the "essential self" that will rule truely is, since you have no identification that has been expressed?

So far Ive not seen a single post on this forum I could identify with.

Perhaps this may be because you have not determined an identity of your own ....?

Terri

[lisagurl]

I do not believe in the binary stereo roles. I am not a male nor a female stereotype. Sex plays no part in my friendships. Essential self is the self that is when you are born before you learn or identify with anything.

only leave you as defining somewhere

LOL you want to label and catalog everything. Sorry words are not adequate. One of a kind do not get their own labels.

social view of yourself

No it is not correct to assume I am any type of male. Nor gender queer.  Maybe some odd ball female.

For all survival purposes dealing with the public I am female. But friends and myself I strictly the essential self brings me happiness and identity. I do not attend social events for pleasure only to trade an acquire services.

Did I miss your point ?

Yes I do not function socially, as in any more than one on one. Sex is not part of my identity and I avoid people who think that way.

Chat later

no I do not chat

[Terri-Gene]

want to label and catalog everything

Not in the sense that you suggest, but just to be able to make some kind of approximate identification.  You still have made none other then to being " some odd ball female." which says nothing, in fact as far as being one of a kind, you'd be surprised how some those out there fully identified as female, do not fit into any kind of definition of female, male, or combination therof, who are distinctly identifiable as women but fit in no steriotype whatsoever.  Most of these though have no problem identifying as women while expecting to be treated as the individuals they are.

do not believe in the binary stereo roles.

Nor do a lot of Transsexuals and women out there,  More then it seems you can or would, imagine.  Some are so totally individual as to defy description, but that has little to do with how they identify to the greater public at large.  I would defy anyone to attempt to catagorize or attempt to steriotype my own presentation or behaviors as well as that of many others, but that doesn't change the female identification the tiniest bit.

Yes I do not function socially, as in any more than one on one.

I see a communication problem here, as if one does not function in social environments, they would naturally not have to or would deal with any realism or social exchanges which would require any kind of consistant self identity relationship.  If nothing public is being exchanged, there are no bounderies, no limits and no true rewards or consiquences.  I simply would not know how to relate to such a personality, as that would truely be one of a kind and thus would be incapible themselves of understanding the workings of the world since they had/have no true relatoinship to it or with it outside of thier own narrow interest ie "business"

I would assume "one on one" would only be those individuals who posed no threat, no disagreement and no interferance.  Again, I would find such relationships when viewed as being the only relationships possible, to be empty and devoid of true personal growth, my opinion as it would apply to myself only of course.

Sex is not part of my identity

you have stressed that many times now, do you mean sex as in genitals, gender, or the act itself?  And if ment in the sense of the act itself, what difference does that make in relation to identification of male or female identity?

Terri