Things that happen before you're born ...

[jmaxley]

I didn't have ambiguous genitalia but I did/do have somewhat atypical genitalia (unusually long anogenital separation for a female, among other things) that have been remarked on by doctors.

I didn't know that was unusual; I've got that too.  Also, up until last year, I thought it was normal to have a clitoris that was about an inch long.  Err...then I found out the average is the size of a pencil eraser or smaller.

[Al James]

See- i struggle with this one. My wife says my clitoris is bigger than normal but ive never noticed it. I would love it to be true then i stand a chance when it comes to meta but.......

[Sharky]

I didn't know that was unusual; I've got that too.  Also, up until last year, I thought it was normal to have a clitoris that was about an inch long.  Err...then I found out the average is the size of a pencil eraser or smaller.

LOL, that was news to me too. I thought it varied a lot person to person then I asked someone how many inches was considered abnormal and  they said if you can measure it in inches then it's abnormal.

[Alexmakenoise]

I didn't know that was unusual; I've got that too.  Also, up until last year, I thought it was normal to have a clitoris that was about an inch long.  Err...then I found out the average is the size of a pencil eraser or smaller.

I guess it's possible that the average is that small, considering that there's so much variety.  But an inch is also normal.

[Yakshini]

My mom was in high school when I was conceived accidentally. There is no way she was on any hormones or aid for the pregnancy. But in the time she was pregnant with me, she also suffered from moderate-to-severe mental illness (depression and anxiety). Considering both depression and anxiety involve hormonal imbalances (albeit, they do not involve sex hormones).
I'm not sure if this would contribute anything to my being trans.

[Nikolai_S]

Well, it's likely that my mom has PCOS, and she had a miscarriage before she got pregnant with me. First several months of pregnancy she was living in a developing country in Asia, so I have no idea what kind of drugs or supplements she might have gotten, or if there were environmental toxins of some sort. No idea about my fetal development/gender markers, she didn't want to be told my sex until I was born. Pretty much anything might have happened when I was developing.

[Michael Joseph]

Well, when I was first born, when my head came out, my dad said what a beautiful boy! Then the rest came out.. But, I guess I was born with some blood disease and I had to go get a shot every week. Whatever I had went away, but my mom said that people who have that disease as adults have to take steroids for it.. that just made me think.

[Sharky]

Not all steroids lead to virilization.

[SnailPace]

I think that my birth and such was pretty normal.  I have a standard female body in the upper normal hairiness range.

The only thing I've found atypical about myself is that instead of the standard single crown (hair whorl) I have three.  Apparently this is sometimes linked to abnormal brain development in the womb. 

[Aikotribs]

yeah been wondering the same thing for months but frankly, we'll never know.And I don't want to keep tobbing on it, as it makes my mother feel guilty, not really what I want. 

My mother has some sort of a breakdown because she was working to hard while being pregnant, at least thats what I understand from it. She spend weeks on the sofa because she had too or I would just 'fall out' as a miscarriage or something.

Meanwhile we also found out my body doesn't has enough T even for a female one, so my guess is ; somewhere down the line her T dramatically dropped making my brain male, without the appropriate body, as it just took on the female hormones where she does has allot of, to fill in the gaps. Sadly enough those where feminine features and genitalia, mixed with a very masculine body build ... yeah, not a pretty sight imo. can't wait to fix that.

[kyle_lawrence]

As far as i know, my birth was pretty normal, and my mom had no issues during pregnancy with me.  I was born about 2 weeks before my due date, weighed 7lbs 11 oz, and was allowed to go home within a day or so, whatever was normal in '84.  My mom was 30 when I was born though, and had my brother at 34, so I wonder if she was put on progesterone at all. 

I was always very thin, and didn't start puberty until i was 16, but always looked very feminine growing up.

As Yakshini mentioned, my mother's mental illness may have effected my hormones.  She is bi-polar, but i dont know if she was on any medication for it before i was born, or if it would have effected me at all. 

I don't feel like its worth looking into, or trying to find out more about though, because i doubt i'll find out any real explinations.

[trnsboi]

I don't buy the fetal hormone argument. For one, there is no solid, universally-agreed upon definition of what constitutes "masculine" or "feminine," let alone a "masculine brain" or "feminine brain". I suggest you read the book "Brain Storm" by Rebecca Jordan-Young. It is basically a meta-analysis of all of the studies that have been done on "sex differences" in the brain, and reveals how flawed and conflicting these studies have been.

[SnailPace]

I don't buy the fetal hormone argument. For one, there is no solid, universally-agreed upon definition of what constitutes "masculine" or "feminine," let alone a "masculine brain" or "feminine brain". I suggest you read the book "Brain Storm" by Rebecca Jordan-Young. It is basically a meta-analysis of all of the studies that have been done on "sex differences" in the brain, and reveals how flawed and conflicting these studies have been.

I think it's more in the way that the brain associates itself with the body.  Obviously, there is nothing definitively male or female about any given personality.  But if the body is giving you dysphoria, there is obviously some disconnect.

[kyril]

b]msg651147#msg651147 date=1294137847]
I don't buy the fetal hormone argument. For one, there is no solid, universally-agreed upon definition of what constitutes "masculine" or "feminine," let alone a "masculine brain" or "feminine brain".[/b] I suggest you read the book "Brain Storm" by Rebecca Jordan-Young. It is basically a meta-analysis of all of the studies that have been done on "sex differences" in the brain, and reveals how flawed and conflicting these studies have been.

That's because there's a lot of continuous variation in a number of different brain structures. It's fairly clear that there are sex differences between men's and women's brains just as it's fairly clear there are sex differences between men's and women's faces, and when one can look at the whole picture (by owning the brain, or by seeing the face) its sex tends to be quite obvious. But the individual differences in each tend to be subtle enough and vary enough between the sexes that simply looking at a single difference is highly unlikely to allow the observer to identify the sex of the observed, especially if the difference is quantified as a single measurement like "nose size" or "volume of the BSTc region of the hypothalamus."

However, there is very strong evidence that fetal hormone exposure does affect personality and behaviour. The strongest evidence comes from children with certain intersex conditions. Girls born with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) are XX girls with no common genetic abnormality who are almost always recognized and raised as girls from birth. Their hormonal abnormality is almost always caught early and treated, so they have normal hormone balances (for female children) after birth. The only difference between them and other girls is that they're known to have been exposed to high levels of androgens prenatally. Yet they show a significantly unusual level of tomboyishness and boy-typical behaviour and play preferences, and have an elevated chance of being lesbians.

Is prenatal hormone exposure the only thing that affects sex and gender identity, gender expression, or sexual orientation? Certainly not (or else identical twins would have a 100% concordance for sexual orientation and gender variance, instead of roughly 50% for orientation and some lower number for gender variance). But it's clearly a factor.

[trnsboi]

TIt's fairly clear that there are sex differences between men's and women's brains just as it's fairly clear there are sex differences between men's and women's faces, and when one can look at the whole picture (by owning the brain, or by seeing the face) its sex tends to be quite obvious. But the individual differences in each tend to be subtle enough and vary enough between the sexes that simply looking at a single difference is highly unlikely to allow the observer to identify the sex of the observed, especially if the difference is quantified as a single measurement like "nose size" or "volume of the BSTc region of the hypothalamus."

However, there is very strong evidence that fetal hormone exposure does affect personality and behaviour. The strongest evidence comes from children with certain intersex conditions. Girls born with congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH) are XX girls with no common genetic abnormality who are almost always recognized and raised as girls from birth. Their hormonal abnormality is almost always caught early and treated, so they have normal hormone balances (for female children) after birth. The only difference between them and other girls is that they're known to have been exposed to high levels of androgens prenatally. Yet they show a significantly unusual level of tomboyishness and boy-typical behaviour and play preferences, and have an elevated chance of being lesbians.

Is prenatal hormone exposure the only thing that affects sex and gender identity, gender expression, or sexual orientation? Certainly not (or else identical twins would have a 100% concordance for sexual orientation and gender variance, instead of roughly 50% for orientation and some lower number for gender variance). But it's clearly a factor.

I disagree. First and foremost, how can there be "sex differences" between "men and women's brains" when we lack clear definitions of what constitutes a man and what constitutes a woman? Secondly, individuals with CAH are generally presented in the literature the exact way that you just presented them, ie: girls who were exposed to high levels of androgens in utero. But people with CAH are intersex, and it is not fair to label them as "girls" unless they identify as such (in fact, I'd argue that it is unfair to label anyone as anything unless they identify as such".

You really need to look at how these studies on hormones and behavior are being done as well as who is doing them, which is why I suggest reading "Brain Storm." It really puts a huge hole in the brain sexual differentiation argument.

[kyril]

I disagree. First and foremost, how can there be "sex differences" between "men and women's brains" when we lack clear definitions of what constitutes a man and what constitutes a woman? Secondly, individuals with CAH are generally presented in the literature the exact way that you just presented them, ie: girls who were exposed to high levels of androgens in utero. But people with CAH are intersex, and it is not fair to label them as "girls" unless they identify as such (in fact, I'd argue that it is unfair to label anyone as anything unless they identify as such".

You really need to look at how these studies on hormones and behavior are being done as well as who is doing them, which is why I suggest reading "Brain Storm." It really puts a huge hole in the brain sexual differentiation argument.

How can there be "sex differences" between "men's and women's genitals" when we lack clear definitions of what constitutes a man and what constitutes a woman?

Fact is there are things in humans that are sexually dimorphic, and those include many if not most physical structures including parts of the brain. The fact that there is overlap, and some people can fall in either category depending on definition, and others who are clearly in one category nevertheless have some features typical of the other, doesn't mean there's no sexual dimorphism - it just means biology is messy.

And yes, kids (mostly girls) with CAH are intersex. My point is that the only thing that makes them intersex is prenatal testosterone exposure. They're genetically female children raised as girls. Their experience and biology differs from other girls (as a group) in only three ways: they have genitalia that's slightly to very atypical for girls, they received some medical interventions in early childhood, and they were exposed to more than the usual amount of testosterone in utero. Of those three differences, the only one that can reasonably account for their observed gender/sexuality differences from other girls is the prenatal testosterone exposure. This is different from other (genetic, or more extreme hormonal) intersex conditions that could theoretically affect children's gender/identity in other ways; an XXY child could have gender differences because of his/her genes, and a child with CAIS could theoretically identify as male because of genes or as female because of environment.

(Another interesting point is that I don't believe there are any reported cases of people with CAIS identifying as men or presenting to care providers as trans; if genes have a strong independent effect on gender identity we'd expect a lot of CAIS men, and if environment were the main factor we'd expect about the same incidence of male identification in XY CAIS people as we see in XX people. But we don't see that; we see people whose bodies are unresponsive to testosterone identifying - to the knowledge of the medical community - exclusively as women. This points fairly strongly to hormones being a necessary, if not sufficient, trigger for developing a male gender identity.)

[trnsboi]

How can there be "sex differences" between "men's and women's genitals" when we lack clear definitions of what constitutes a man and what constitutes a woman?

Because there aren't. I know plenty of men with vaginas and plenty of women with penises. I also know plenty of people whose genitals do not fit either categorization. There is one thing and one thing only that all men have in common, and that is a male identity. Same with women, or genderqueer people, or any other group. Saying that there must be differences in the brain because there are facial differences is inane (and I would actually argue that there are not facial differences for the same reasons I stated above)--that would be like saying "there are differences between black people's faces and white people's faces, so there must be differences in their brains as well."

And yes, there have been individuals with CAIS who identify as male. Look here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/4w515837q0821487/ as well as here: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20358272

[Devyn]

My birth...well, I was born 3 or 3 1/2 months premature. I forget which. Don't know if that would attribute to any of my trans feelings since I wasn't in my mom long enough. :I

[Sharky]

I think there must be differences between men's and women's brains. How your brain is wired influences your gender identity, does it not?

[ALX]

Yeah that's me too. My mom was given meds to prevent pre term labor (and was born pre term anyway) Of course there also was a lot of recreational drug use in that time too and how many of us know what our parents took and when for sure? (If they themselves even know)  This would imply that  our gender identity would have been different but got altered along the way tho.. And  I'm not sure I believe that. I really do feel that our way of looking at male and female is much to binary..  I do find it striking how many of us there seem to be... So I just don't know..