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Gender Roles

Started by Jessica B, January 20, 2011, 09:18:35 AM

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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Vexing on January 23, 2011, 12:49:48 AM
And people conflate the word 'theory' with 'hypothesis'.

Actually, theory and hypothesis mean the same thing (most of the time).  It is the context that decides which word is appropriate.  A theory is a generalized set of propositions used to explain a phenomenon.  A hypothesis is a proposition (or set of propositions) which is a part of a particular scientific investigation (i.e. study)

So my use of the term "theory" over "hypothesis" was correct in this case.  Sorry, Vexing, but you are going to have to try a lot harder than that.

I suppose we should be getting back on topic.  So let's get on topic.  Gender roles are a set of theories.  The idea that men are better a learning physics is a theory.  The idea that men are better at learning physics (when the idea is used in relation to a test of men's learning abilities) is a hypothesis.  Discuss.
"The cake is a lie."
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CaitJ

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 23, 2011, 01:51:46 AM
Actually, theory and hypothesis mean the same thing (most of the time).  It is the context that decides which word is appropriate.  A theory is a generalized set of propositions used to explain a phenomenon.  A hypothesis is a proposition (or set of propositions) which is a part of a particular scientific investigation (i.e. study)

So my use of the term "theory" over "hypothesis" was correct in this case.  Sorry, Vexing, but you are going to have to try a lot harder than that.

I wasn't directing that comment at you.
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Rock_chick

Quote from: Vexing on January 22, 2011, 09:29:21 PM
I'm deadly serious; this information, if credible, should be distributed immediately to the media.

If it's peer reviewed it's already in the public domain, so the media already have access to it. If the media already has access to it that means that if this information hasn't appeared outside specialist journals, that it simply isn't consider news worthy enough. Don't you just love how media works?
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Sarah B

Hi Japple

You said

Quote from: japple on January 23, 2011, 12:59:05 AM
There are going to be scientific reasons for GID and there are going to be social reasons for GID.  We don't all have the same levels or types of GID or for the same reasons.

Which is what, I have already said:

Quote from: Sarah B on January 22, 2011, 04:29:30 PM
Which is basically what I'm saying also, we have innate traits (for want of a better word) and when we are born, socialization will modify those traits.

Kind regards
Sarah B
Be who you want to be.
Sarah's Story
Feb 1989 Living my life as Sarah.
Feb 1989 Legally changed my name.
Mar 1989 Started hormones.
May 1990 Three surgery letters.
Feb 1991 Surgery.
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japple

Quote from: Sarah B on January 23, 2011, 03:11:48 AM
Which is what, I have already said:


I think I was saying something different. I'm saying there are those that will have GID for born biological reasons (Intersex, endocrine, regular mutation) and those that will have GID for social reasons (paraphilia, psychosis, adjustment..)  and potentially GID for post-birth environmental reasons. (transcription factor..) and probably more...

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PixieBoy

This is kind of like listening to people arguing about what causes autism. To me, what causes it is irrelevant, as long as the people with it can live fulfilling and meaningful lives, and be happy.

I've got AS, so I guess I'd just mess up the statistics with my opinions and views on things.

Gender roles (what is deemed masculine and feminine) are made-up by the culture. In the 18th century, macho men wore makeup and high heels, and cried in public (the more who saw the man being moved to tears by anything in existance, the better).
Pink was the colour of flesh, and it was derived from red, the colour of blood. Super macho. Blue was just Virgin Mary's colour, a calm and non-intrusive colour, totally girly. Now, that has changed. Men aren'r supposed to cry in public anymore.
There are certain behaviours that are "gendered" per se, such as childbirth (most women can do it, almost no men). Those that say that only men abuse women, are wrong. Violence is not a male behavior. It is a behaviour dependant on physical strength. Most males are physically stronger than  most women, and that is why most men are more prone to being physically violent than others.

When I was a kid, I preferred green. No blue, no pink, just green.
...that fey-looking freak kid with too many books and too much bodily fat
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spacial

Quote from: perlita85 on January 23, 2011, 12:03:39 PM

NOTE that this study is 16 yeas old! Much has been discovered since


Perlita..

This is facinating stuff.

Do you have any information or sources on the current state of the research?
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CaitJ

Hi Perlita,

What's your PHD in?
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Kendall

Thank you Dr. Perlita for the explanation and citations. Very clear.

I would like to add one psychotherapist's point of view. Gender is a social construct that varies over time and across cultures. As far as I know, every culture has assigned gender roles, although some have more than two genders. I believe this is because our brains function by creating and following patterns of perceiving and patterns of behaving that are usually culturally consistent. We need patterns to function. Some people have more rigid patterns, and get very upset when something does not fit their patterns. Other people have more flexible patterns and can adjust more easily to change. Others have learned chaotic patterns and cannot function coherently. The fact of needing patterns is a biological need; it is how our brains function. I believe gender roles are an example of such patterns. Social content filling a biological and social function.

When I saw this topic, I had a little different interest than the direction this discussion has taken so far. For me, it is an issue of understanding what it means to me to be transgendered. Partly it touches my internal debate. One the one hand, my logical side argues that I was assigned a male identity at birth based on my physical morphology and chromosomes. I lived, more or less successfully as a male for almost six decades. It is not logical to think at this late date that I am really a woman inside. One the other hand, my intuitive, experiential side expresses the unhappiness I have always felt, the lack of fit. I experience "fit" when I wear women's clothes, and wear my (long) hair down. I feel comfort when I shave my legs (a totally cultural artifact). I love being called mam, and regret the frequent embarrassed follow-up of "oh, sorry; sir". And I felt such relief when I realized one day dressed in my male work "drab," that the clothes do not make me male or female. A woman could wear what I was wearing - was wearing what I was wearing. Gender markers invite others to identify me as male of female. I decide what I really am. But how? Why? Why am I not accepting the "logical" answer?

As a therapist specializing in stopping domestic violence and abuse, I also have spent a significant part of my life trying to "deconstruct" male behavior - especially the negative male identified behaviors of violence, destructive competition, bragging, dominance, and so forth. I have a career trying to help men (and women) stop being violent and abusive. I also try to help women (and men) stop being self-destructively co-dependent. Some of these problems clearly come from how societies and families raise boys and girls to be men and women.

So, eventually, I thought, "why would I or anyone want to be one of the violent self-absorbed and self-destructive limited people that men are taught to be - male privilege notwithstanding." I try to help damaged men (and women) heal and be less trapped in what they learned that does not work. And I try to make sense of my own dissatisfaction with being assigned maleness. After all, I was trying to be part of the solution; a different kind of male.

Alternatively, I appreciate what I have learned from my trans brothers who do not show the negative characteristics I associate with socialized maleness. Being male is not - per se - bad. The social stereotypes are not the core of maleness - whatever that is. Some people are "OK" with being male.

I think gender roles are social explanations and prescriptions for gender identity, but gender identity is not at its core socially determined.

If I have to stay male I will die. It is not me no matter what my body and almost everyone around me tells me.

So what is it in me that says this? What is this "not logical" drive? Why am I not alive in my "assigned" gender? It would be so much simpler. More logical and socially accepted, approved and so on.

From my perspective gender roles are all too real, too much of a barrier and a trap, too overwhelming even as I cannot accept them as valid, or accept living within them any longer.

So, back to the original question; do some trans-people over-do the gender role markers while they are learning their new behavior? I think over-doing is a natural part of learning a new way of being in the world. Gender role stereotypes give a "pattern-map" for how to behave for someone who was raised to behave differently. It makes sense people would over-do at first just as teenagers sometimes do. Later, with more experience it is easier to have the confidence to do what ever you want.

Sorry for rambling a little, but I really need to work this through. And thank you Violet for the original question.

Kendall

(a 61 year old child)
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japple

Quote from: Kendall on January 23, 2011, 11:55:30 PM
So, back to the original question; do some trans-people over-do the gender role markers while they are learning their new behavior? I think over-doing is a natural part of learning a new way of being in the world. Gender role stereotypes give a "pattern-map" for how to behave for someone who was raised to behave differently. It makes sense people would over-do at first just as teenagers sometimes do. Later, with more experience it is easier to have the confidence to do what ever you want.

That makes a lot of sense and changes my perspective quite a bit.

Darn therapists.
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Kendall on January 23, 2011, 11:55:30 PM
So, back to the original question; do some trans-people over-do the gender role markers while they are learning their new behavior?

I'm not learning anything.  If anything, I'm UN-learning all the things that I've been forcing myself to do all these years, because my natural personality was always clamouring to come to the surface.
"The cake is a lie."
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Jessica B

     On the concept of unlearning...that I understand.  Sometimes you get so good at acting that it becomes hard to stop.


     
Respectfully,
-Jessica Baker
Twisted Ivy

"Without deviation from the norm, progress is not possible"
-Frank Zappa
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Nygeel

Totally forgot I posted in here...

@VeryGnawty Mayhaps it's about that.

@japple I don't really know what you mean when you say "I often think that living and succeeding as a man, despite how odd it seems, is the most feminist thing I can do."
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Tammy Hope

loks like a fascinating topic but i don't have time to go through 6 pages tonight.

so i selfishly post in order that i might find the thread more easily tomorrow!
Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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VeryGnawty

Quote from: Nygeel on January 24, 2011, 03:05:04 AM
@japple I don't really know what you mean when you say "I often think that living and succeeding as a man, despite how odd it seems, is the most feminist thing I can do."

I also don't understand that comment.  I thought that feminism was about empowering women.  Pretending to be a man didn't empower me in any way at all.  It still doesn't.  I'll be glad when I have no more use for pretending.
"The cake is a lie."
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LordKAT

guess I'm strange, it made sense to me. Most feminists seem to think progress is acting/doing things men do. If you are female whether or not male bodied, then acting/doing male things is seen as feminist.
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death_chick

I hate joining these threads so late.

I first want to address (Vexing? Your name is a dot so I'm not sure.)

Quote from: VexingI don't think you're working on the same definition of 'inherent'.
For a gender role to be 'inherent' it needs to be hard-wired on some biological or universal level.
If it is not hard-wired on some biological or universal level, then it is a construct and therefore cannot be 'inherent'.

For it to be hard-wired on a biological level, wouldn't that more appropriately make it a 'sex role'? Sex refers to biological identity, after all, not gender. But that's really just pointless nitpicking and not why I highlighted this post.

I see that you're extremely objective, but I think that taking objectivity too far becomes... pointless. Yes, we as humans can't consider anything without ascribing our own subjective values, concepts, and constructs to them. With the very act of existing as separate consciousnesses and not as a hive mind, we are being subjective from each other - let alone the universe. But that's kind of the inevitable ending point of that train of thought - chasing objectivity becomes a vain pursuit, and distracts from the subject at hand. I suppose objectivity might be the only subject that could ever matter, really - absolute truth - but after a while of that charade I made the *personal choice* to ->-bleeped-<- it all with objectivity, because that's not the point of being human. And perhaps the universe really isn't so Newtonian after all.

I could be reading way too much into your position, and if that's the case, sorry for that and I blame my being up for 48 hours straight. It was a fun rant though.


Quote from: Vexing"This isn't to say that the behaviors are absolutely differentiated, perfectly, all the time, but to say that zero human behaviors are innately male or female seems misleading, at least."

I don't think so. Prove to me that behaviours are hard wired from birth and I'll accept your premise.

I might agree that nothing is hardwired in us, absolutely, objectively, with 'gender'. But certain roles or actions can still by their own virtue be of one gender. I'm curious as to your opinion on, say, nursing. The act and role of breastfeeding is completely female. Yes, it's something that can only be done with a female anatomy, and no, the desire to / appreciation of it isn't hardwired into the female sex (FtMs would obviously agree), but the actual love and connectedness that is felt while nursing can only be expressed, I believe, on a female 'wavelength.' Not all cisgendered women love it - I had an aunt who hated and refused to do it - but I don't think anyone who is gendered solely as male would feel a sense congruency during that act, and I would accept any who did as a case-ruiner.
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death_chick

Quote from: jappleI often think that living and succeeding as a man, despite how odd it seems, is the most feminist thing I can do.  Like I'm getting away with something.

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 24, 2011, 05:16:52 AM
I also don't understand that comment.  I thought that feminism was about empowering women.  Pretending to be a man didn't empower me in any way at all.  It still doesn't.  I'll be glad when I have no more use for pretending.

From one perspective, it's feminist because a woman was able to say "eff you" by beating men at their own game. At the same time, it completely isn't, because it involves giving femininity up entirely and conforming to mens' rules. I guess the decider is where your heart lies - are you sticking it to them, or rolling over?


Quote from: HelenaIf it's peer reviewed it's already in the public domain, so the media already have access to it. If the media already has access to it that means that if this information hasn't appeared outside specialist journals, that it simply isn't consider news worthy enough. Don't you just love how media works?
Imagine that - the media wanting to skim over anything related to us freaks. Don't worry, we'll be popular someday - and then we'll hate the fact because we'll be flooded with trend-following posers and every idiot who diagnoses themself with a single glance at Web MD -_-


Quote from: KendallSo, back to the original question; do some trans-people over-do the gender role markers while they are learning their new behavior? I think over-doing is a natural part of learning a new way of being in the world. Gender role stereotypes give a "pattern-map" for how to behave for someone who was raised to behave differently. It makes sense people would over-do at first just as teenagers sometimes do. Later, with more experience it is easier to have the confidence to do what ever you want.

In the gothic subculture, we get people we call babybats. They're the ones who just found out they're goth and are oh-so-completely into it - or rather, their shallow perception of what goth is. They do their makeup horribly, make atrocious fashion decisions, and generally annoy the hell out of the rest of us until they grow out of that phase or move on. I would definitely agree that it's easy to overcompensate with something that's new to you - it takes a certain level of maturity or innate familiarity to see past the surface and connect with something at its core. And when you do, you aren't just emulating a look - you're emanating that thing from your own merit.
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japple

Quote from: VeryGnawty on January 24, 2011, 05:16:52 AM
I also don't understand that comment.  I thought that feminism was about empowering women.  Pretending to be a man didn't empower me in any way at all.  It still doesn't.  I'll be glad when I have no more use for pretending.

LordKAT: Thanks.  That's pretty close to what I was thinking. Though I'm more of an Ani Difranco, Camille Paglia - You go girl feminist. 

VeryKnawty: I don't think you and I are very much alike, so we probably have different POVs, but what I mean is that when I put on a suit and go into a corporate boardroom and make a deal I feel like I'm getting away with something.  Like I've been given this "treat" of being a white male and I should take advantage of it.   It's a mistake that I'm a man, but I should use it to my advantage...I'm pulling the wool over people's eyes.  I can make sure a woman is heard in a business conversation.  Most of my friends in business are women and I mentor several women but I see their glass ceiling from my side.  I can hire women. I can empower women in the workplace.  I set up a group to help high school girls in certain careers.

Sometimes I pretend I'm in an 80s body swap movie and I get to clean things up.

I feel much much more comfortable with women at work and work with several totally misogynistic a-holes but I can play their game.  They like me because I have power and am smart in business.  I can tell them when they are being inappropriate and they will react in a disarmed way.

death_chick: I don't think I give up femininity at all...although I've made a big effort to let go of perceptions and stereotypes of masculinity and femininity.  I am on the creative side of business so I don't act like the typical suit.  Even me wearing a suit is ironic sing I usually wear what a designer would wear.   That being said I LOVE wearing a suit.  It feels like war paint. Battle gear. I wear leather bottomed dancing shoes and just glide around...fluid and indestructible.

Nygeel: hope that makes more sense?
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Tammy Hope

Quote from: Violet_Camo on January 20, 2011, 09:18:35 AM
     Friends,

       I have a question for discussion.  But first, the framework.  A good number of the trans-persons I know in as face to face friends are often very caught up in gender roles and often seem to conform to the standard as set by mainstream western society.

       For example, I am bit less frilly then many of the friends I have in person a more active and adventure seeking girl, confident and reliable and very committed to the ones I love while suspicious of thoughts around me (I had to cut this short ^_~).   One of my large concerns when I first went to go and seek help from a psychologist and psychiatrist was I would be doubted or denied care because I did not conform to the standard gender roles as set by society. 

        So the question, how many of the girls or guys for that matter on here break the mold a bit so to say.  How do you identify your attitude and personality, and how do you express them?  Also, of course there is absolutely nothing wrong with fitting the standard mold..it is the standard for a reason!

         Respectfully,
         -Violet

I'm answering before reading the thread so as to give my own thoughts -

i'm very much a gender role conformist, and I actually take a lot of mental comfort from that.

In fact, I'd go so far as to suggest that my fundamental nature - that is the sort of woman I see myself as naturally being (and not, repeat NOT as a fetishistic desire) is very much a girly-girl and a feminist's nightmare.

In my ideal "alternate universe" life, I'm a stay at home mom and my man does the yard work and all the "manly" stuff and i tend to wear skirts ad such just because i like leaning to the feminine side. I'm not a caricature - climbing on a chair when I see a mouse or such as that - but I am a bit submissive, a bit dependent, a bit "helpless" and i like it that way.

That is my nature, even now, it's just that life circumstances don't allow the full flowering of that tendency.

That said, within the limitations of my age and my physical limitations, I very much do the stereotypical girl stuff (dye my hair, get my nails done, can't leave home without makeup, and etc) and would be lost trying to do otherwise.

Disclaimer: due to serious injury, most of my posts are made via Dragon Dictation which sometimes butchers grammar and mis-hears my words. I'm also too lazy to closely proof-read which means some of my comments will seem strange.


http://eachvoicepub.com/PaintedPonies.php
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