New study on Trans people

[tori319]

It's really disheartening to read stuff like this. When you think about how much better things are than they used to be you r reminded of how bad things still are.



http://www.prospect.org/cs/articles?article=counting_the_transgender_community

[juliemac]

Good artical. Thanks.
The environment has improved ove rthe years since I transitioned.

[Skyanne]

Wow...that's depressing, so glad I'm not American.

[Cruelladeville]

And reminds me of why i prefer the safety and odds-beating-chances of living in 'stealth'

[valyn_faer]

Wow...that's depressing, so glad I'm not American.

What country do you live in, if you don't mind me asking? I'm personally considering going to grad school in New Zealand. I very much want to get out of the U.S.

[rejennyrated]

As a European I find this report both saddening and scary. To anyone used to the Uk's mainly relaxed attitudes this is just completely alien territory.

It is also very depressing because I fear that if I lived in the USA I would not have been willing to take the "risk" of living in a relationship with the woman I have loved for the past 23 years. Instead I might have lived in a deep deep stealth bunker, and deliberately chosen an ultra conservative lifestyle and straight relationship.

The end result of that would have been that with a childhood transition and early SRS I would almost certainly have passed under the radar, and who knows, I might even have become the morally bankrupt persecutor of trans-people on the basis that the best form of defense is attack.

Above all I would have lost my true self and instead have become a terrible hypocrite.

I hate the fact that attitudes like this can exist in this age, I salute those of you who deal with and fight them, and I thank my lucky stars that I have never had to, because as you can see, I am forced to admit that I doubt that I would have done so with anything like honor or integrity.

These attitudes HAVE to change. A nation that can do this to it's own citizens whilst preaching to the rest of the world about "Freedom," "Respect," and "Democracy," has in my opinion, plumbed the same depths of moral bankruptcy as I would probably have done if I had ever lived and loved there.

Clearly I cannot condemn, but hopefully by my own confession of weakness I can hold up a mirror.

[Skyanne]

What country do you live in, if you don't mind me asking? I'm personally considering going to grad school in New Zealand. I very much want to get out of the U.S.

I'm from the UK, and attitudes here are very, very different. Most people I've told have basically had responded, "Okay, that's nice, so what was your big news?".

[MarinaM]

That's the thing about the U.S. It's not really a unified country. States are, in effect, their own countries as it pertains to law and outlook. Democrat and Republican relations are so close to Shia / Sunni that it's absolutely frightening (even in my family we fight over political policy). Every state has its own agenda and is allowed to vie for its constituents equally in the senate. Each state has its own constitution which can contradict the federal constitution. Conservative states, though less populated, wield a disproportionate amount of power and "moral authority."

This is why pretty much everyone across the board hates Californians. We're the privileged child that roots for the underdog. We abuse our power and shove it in everyone's face. Proudly. When I'm out of state and tell a person I'm from California I get the same social reaction as though I've just come out to someone. We set trends, we dictate federal environmental policies, we push laws which are deemed "liberal" upon the rest of the country. There are 37 million of us, we help feed a good portion of the world, we are the economic engine that propels this faulty machine. They have to listen to us and they hate it.

Even in California though, there is a divide. The state is more than 700 miles long, and venturing from San Francisco to Los Angeles is exactly like going from New York to Washington D.C. There is more than enough room for everyone here, but no one wants to believe it. We can't even pass a law that allows homosexuals to marry (The democrats who turned out to vote for Obama also happened to be religious conservatives. Go figure). It's a lot like: "This land is my land... forget the rest."

In the U.S. freedom can be ******* scary, because you're not the only one who is free. The bigots and racists and sexists and homophobes and warmongers are all also free to express their beliefs without violent reproach. They have the federal protection to present a law that treats a certain subculture as less than human if they so choose. The best (faulty) protection we have is the nine supreme court justices that are appointed for life by the presidents, present and past, that we hope like hell have our best interests in mind. Even then we find ourselves depending upon police departments that have little incentive to actually uphold the laws of a flagging and ever weaker federal entity, and we can thank the economy for that.

The U.S. is an absolute hole right now. Like a weapon with a dementia patient's finger on the trigger.

[Skyanne]

In the U.S. freedom can be ******* scary, because you're not the only one who is free. The bigots and racists and sexists and homophobes and warmongers are all also free to express their beliefs without violent reproach.

I don't want to seem disrespectful to someone elses country, but that's the sort of 'Freedom' they have in North Korea too.

[Sean]

That's the thing about the U.S. It's not really a unified country. States are, in effect, their own countries as it pertains to law and outlook. Democrat and Republican relations are so close to Shia / Sunni that it's absolutely frightening (even in my family we fight over political policy). Every state has its own agenda and is allowed to vie for its constituents equally in the senate. Each state has its own constitution which can contradict the federal constitution. Conservative states, though less populated, wield a disproportionate amount of power and "moral authority."

This is why pretty much everyone across the board hates Californians. We're the privileged child that roots for the underdog. We abuse our power and shove it in everyone's face. Proudly. When I'm out of state and tell a person I'm from California I get the same social reaction as though I've just come out to someone. We set trends, we dictate federal environmental policies, we push laws which are deemed "liberal" upon the rest of the country. There are 37 million of us, we help feed a good portion of the world, we are the economic engine that propels this faulty machine. They have to listen to us and they hate it.

Even in California though, there is a divide. The state is more than 700 miles long, and venturing from San Francisco to Los Angeles is exactly like going from New York to Washington D.C. There is more than enough room for everyone here, but no one wants to believe it. We can't even pass a law that allows homosexuals to marry (The democrats who turned out to vote for Obama also happened to be religious conservatives. Go figure). It's a lot like: "This land is my land... forget the rest."

In the U.S. freedom can be ******* scary, because you're not the only one who is free. The bigots and racists and sexists and homophobes and warmongers are all also free to express their beliefs without violent reproach. They have the federal protection to present a law that treats a certain subculture as less than human if they so choose. The best (faulty) protection we have is the nine supreme court justices that are appointed for life by the presidents, present and past, that we hope like hell have our best interests in mind. Even then we find ourselves depending upon police departments that have little incentive to actually uphold the laws of a flagging and ever weaker federal entity, and we can thank the economy for that.

The U.S. is an absolute hole right now. Like a weapon with a dementia patient's finger on the trigger.

1. When the United States has a civil war, clan warfare, and militaristic despots, then we can say that our relations are like Sunni/Shia. Let's not delegitimize the challenges elsewhere in the world by acting like Democrat vs. Republicans is the same as actual war or jailing dissenters/killing their families.

2. State constitutions may NOT contradict the federal constitution. This is a basic principle of federalism. Some state constitutions go further than the federal one. NONE take away rights granted in the US Constitution.

3. Having lived in the midwest and on the east coast, I've never met a single person who hated Californians.

4. The best protection we have is not the Supreme Court. It is the fact that the United States is an extremely diverse country, and you have the absolute right as a US citizen to move *anywhere* in the country you like, to any state. If you don't like your location, you can just pick up and go somewhere else.

The US may not be the best place in the world, but to bash it or compare it to North Korea - where a large percentage of the population is starving/malnurished and censored under a despot - is the kind of hyperbole that makes it impossible for anyone to take your concerns seriously.

[Skyanne]

Well, to be fair I was the one that mentioned North Korea, and only in the sense that racists, sexists, homophobes ect also have the freedom to express their beliefs there as well.

I don't think there's anything wrong with bashing America a little bit, but that doesn't mean it's not generally a lovely country full of nice people. You just can't really go around saying you're leader of the free world if people in your country aren't really free to be themselves without facing oppression, violence, etc.

Edit: Although thinking about it, prolly what they mean when they say that is 'strongest country that is generally free and democractic' and the rest of us take it a lil too literally.

[MarinaM]

1. When the United States has a civil war, clan warfare, and militaristic despots, then we can say that our relations are like Sunni/Shia. Let's not delegitimize the challenges elsewhere in the world by acting like Democrat vs. Republicans is the same as actual war or jailing dissenters/killing their families.

2. State constitutions may NOT contradict the federal constitution. This is a basic principle of federalism. Some state constitutions go further than the federal one. NONE take away rights granted in the US Constitution.

3. Having lived in the midwest and on the east coast, I've never met a single person who hated Californians.

4. The best protection we have is not the Supreme Court. It is the fact that the United States is an extremely diverse country, and you have the absolute right as a US citizen to move *anywhere* in the country you like, to any state. If you don't like your location, you can just pick up and go somewhere else.

The US may not be the best place in the world, but to bash it or compare it to North Korea - where a large percentage of the population is starving/malnurished and censored under a despot - is the kind of hyperbole that makes it impossible for anyone to take your concerns seriously.

The government is split and they're spitting venom at one another. You don't believe that they seek to absolutely destroy one another in some form? You can't feel the vitriol coming off of capitol hill?

We had a civil war over moral and economic disputes. 618,000 Americans died.

43 million people in the U.S. (the ones willing to be counted, mind you) live in poverty, more than the entire population of North Korea. Over 1.3 million people every year are victims of violent crime. California and Oregon have constitutional amendments allowing for the legal use of medical marijuana and the right to die, respectively, which are federally banned, and the feds have enacted their right to allow states to uphold these conflicted federal laws; this effectively negates the federal law. You are correct though, none take away federally granted rights, but States are absolutely allowed to challenge interpretations of the federal constitution.

As far as people from out of state, maybe I'm just meeting the wrong people.

[Serra]

This is just...fantastically depressing.  And people wonder why I'm a HUGE misanthropist.

And Marina, I think you are.  Nobody I know hates Californians.

[Nigella]

I'm from the UK, and attitudes here are very, very different. Most people I've told have basically had responded, "Okay, that's nice, so what was your big news?".

I beg to differ, in the UK we can be still harassed in the street. I know of some who have been shouted at, physically threatened and punched. I am aware that if passing is a problem then its even worse. I was dropped as a teacher when I first disclosed my intention to transition and even though came at the top of an interview for a post. I learned this through my union who also didn't do a thing. It was there loss. As some will know I am successful and have a senior position now and live in semi-stealth. I intend to remain like that. In saying this my family have been great and those whom my mum blurts it out to have been great, thanks mum, lol. So its where you live in the UK, there are places that are less welcoming. I also know some who have not had good acceptance from their GP. Again mine have been great, even fantastic. So its still hit and miss here in the UK.

About the article, its awful to think that one human being can think that about another just because they are different.

Stardust

[Skyanne]

I think it's a little bit of a generation thing too, but yeah...I'm from Brighton, so my experiences here are prolly very different from other, less tolerant parts of the UK. We also do have much better legal protection and rights across the entire country though.

[tekla]

If you want anyone to take you seriously, you have to start with serious arguments, the US is North Korea is not exactly in that category.  Moreover I doubt very, very much that whoever wrote that has the least clue as to what anyone in North Korea is allowed to say, or not say - it's the most closed society in the world.

And, in a secret police cult of personality state, like North Korea is, no one is allowed to express anything other than agreeing with Dear Leader, no matter what he says.

[ClaireA]

If you want anyone to take you seriously, you have to start with serious arguments, the US is North Korea is not exactly in that category.  Moreover I doubt very, very much that whoever wrote that has the least clue as to what anyone in North Korea is allowed to say, or not say - it's the most closed society in the world.

And, in a secret police cult of personality state, like North Korea is, no one is allowed to express anything other than agreeing with Dear Leader, no matter what he says.

Agreed. Sure, the US has problems. Every country does. But please do not compare the US to North Korea. North Korea has electric fences along its borders with the sole intention of electrocuting those attempting to escape. If you even privately complain about your food rations in North Korea, you, your family, and even your extended family will end up in a labor camp, probably for the rest of your lives. North Korea is a human rights basket case. If you expressed the opinion there that you did here, you'd probably "disappear".

And that is horrible to hear about discrimination against trans in America. Why do they have all these anti-discrimination laws and yet a lot of states have no anti-discrimination law against trans people? Sometimes the LGBT community makes me kind of mad - it seems like they are putting all their effort behind initiatives helping LGB, and rarely actually helping LGBT.

[lauren3332]

Most statistics are made up or exaggerated.  Every country has problems.  I wouldn't walk on egg shells because of reports.  I am not trying to mock anything, but I am not going to sit around going "oh no, I hope the bigots don't get me today."  People get shot on the street just because, but I am not about to stop going out because of lunatics. 

[Skyanne]

Speaking of bad arguements.

Straw Man (Fallacy Of Extension): attacking an exaggerated or caricatured version of your opponent's position.

Just because the US is compared to North Korea in a very specific way, doesn't mean it's also compared in a general way. If I said the US, like North Korea is a country, that wouldn't mean I was saying the US was like North Korea in every single way. Stop it.

[GinaDouglas]

The U.S. is an absolute hole right now. Like a weapon with a dementia patient's finger on the trigger.

I second that emotion.  The Roman Empire and Nazi Germany started out as republics too.  Between The Beacon of Democracy and The Great Satan, my honest assessment is that we are more like the way Iran views us than we are like the way we view ourselves.