Fragile Male Identity And "feminine Hobbies"

[insideontheoutside]

One of the most popular contemporary illustrators is James Jean and he does incredibly "feminine" stuff.

Ah yeah, James Jean blows my mind! And you're also very true that women in the comics world are very respected.

There have been many women artists throughout history. Saying fine arts is male dominated is about like saying the corporate world is male dominated. But if you ask me, there's thousands of female artists and creatives to every one Thomas Kinkade out there who "makes it big" and that changes things a bit.

@popweasel I think you got more going on than just the art thing. You have to take yourself seriously first. You also have to have the self confidence. It's not just about saying, "screw society" - it has to come from inside. And self confidence doesn't just apply to your artistic talent but everything you do. It sounds like you've put a lot of personal demands and other people's rules on yourself and you're not living up to either so it's not working out. There's no other way to put that other than you gotta cut that out. If you've got talent, create stuff - put together a portfolio of the style you do and get out there and market yourself.

On the gender front, there's a ton of femme guys out there. There's even femme guys that are straight. There's a whole world of variation when it comes to gender. If you have it worked out in your mind, that's the first step. I know that being treated as male can be incredibly important to feeling male. But it shouldn't make YOU believe it more. You should already know that in your mind.

[Shang]

Not doing whatever I want sounds harder to me.

I think you care too much what other people think. I don't get what drugs and being spoiled has to do with your IQ, but I don't think you should be changing yourself for the gratification of others. You going to spend your whole life trying to appease other people?  I don't think changing yourself is going to make people respect you, and I don't think someone that respects themselves would do that.

This.

I gave up trying to be more "masculine" to fit the stereotypical view of what a guy should be.  I like my "feminine" hobbies and I'm sure as hell not giving them up to please everyone else.  It's my life, not the other person's.  They're not the ones who have to live it.

And it is your life.  Someone else shouldn't get to dictate how you live it, or dictate what you should or not be able to do especially when it comes to hobbies.  But, it's up to you to make sure they don't get to run your life.  It's up to you to make the choice to do what you want and to be comfortable with yourself.

Edit:  and then what insideontheoutside said.

[insideontheoutside]

I gave up trying to be more "masculine" to fit the stereotypical view of what a guy should be.  I like my "feminine" hobbies and I'm sure as hell not giving them up to please everyone else.  It's my life, not the other person's.  They're not the ones who have to live it.

And it is your life.  Someone else shouldn't get to dictate how you live it, or dictate what you should or not be able to do especially when it comes to hobbies.  But, it's up to you to make sure they don't get to run your life.  It's up to you to make the choice to do what you want and to be comfortable with yourself.

Edit:  and then what insideontheoutside said.

Yes, exactly!

and thank you.

[japple]

Over ten people I can name, but none of them have art degrees. Do I really need their respect?

They don't need art degrees but if they're not professional artists then don't let them judge your art or how gendered your art is.  So now that they're out of the pictures you are free and clear to be a man who draws cute stuff.  Girls will love it (if you're a straight man)

The arts is where you're going to find a lot of freedom from social norms. Be bohemian.  Be the man you want to be.  You'll find a lot of support.  Go for it.

[popweasel]

@popweasel I think you got more going on than just the art thing. You have to take yourself seriously first. You also have to have the self confidence. It's not just about saying, "screw society" - it has to come from inside. And self confidence doesn't just apply to your artistic talent but everything you do. It sounds like you've put a lot of personal demands and other people's rules on yourself and you're not living up to either so it's not working out. There's no other way to put that other than you gotta cut that out. If you've got talent, create stuff - put together a portfolio of the style you do and get out there and market yourself.

On the gender front, there's a ton of femme guys out there. There's even femme guys that are straight. There's a whole world of variation when it comes to gender. If you have it worked out in your mind, that's the first step. I know that being treated as male can be incredibly important to feeling male. But it shouldn't make YOU believe it more. You should already know that in your mind.

You're right. There's too many values and demands that don't work with my disposition.

It's been ingrained in me to hate femme guys. I mean, my mind is aware that I've been indoctrinated with alot of hate and terrible values, but my guts still react in a primitive manner. It's hard to rewind the years of being raised a certain way.
Maybe it all sums down to living in a hick town. Ugh.

[tekla]

Because of the entire obsession about gender (except for the andros) round these parts there is a dividing of everything in the world into boy or girl, when, if you look at reality - it just does not work out that way.  I work all the time with a guy who does fabric treatments, curtains, hanging fabric on walls and stuff like that, and he is a huge biker.

Do what you feel moved to do, and what you need to do

[popweasel]

Just on last note, I draw like the artist from here: http://mecharm.deviantart.com/

Except he's gone so I doubt any of you saw his art before


and yeah, I guess my repulsion against myself just sums down to me trying to find defense against people who question me.

[insideontheoutside]

You're right. There's too many values and demands that don't work with my disposition.

It's been ingrained in me to hate femme guys. I mean, my mind is aware that I've been indoctrinated with alot of hate and terrible values, but my guts still react in a primitive manner. It's hard to rewind the years of being raised a certain way.
Maybe it all sums down to living in a hick town. Ugh.

I think to some extent everyone who is trans-anything has had to work hard to get over some part of their past. Don't feel like you're alone with that. Most of the time we can't help how our parents or family "raised" us or what kind of values they instilled in us. In many areas of the country there's still lots of discrimination and children learn that from their parents and peers. But once you get to a certain point and start seeing other options and making your own decisions, you can break free of things like that. None of this is "easy", but don't keep hating on yourself because of the past or even because of a current situation of being "too girly" to be called male. There's a whole wide world of examples out there to question that assessment I'm sure too.

[popweasel]

I think to some extent everyone who is trans-anything has had to work hard to get over some part of their past. Don't feel like you're alone with that. Most of the time we can't help how our parents or family "raised" us or what kind of values they instilled in us. In many areas of the country there's still lots of discrimination and children learn that from their parents and peers. But once you get to a certain point and start seeing other options and making your own decisions, you can break free of things like that. None of this is "easy", but don't keep hating on yourself because of the past or even because of a current situation of being "too girly" to be called male. There's a whole wide world of examples out there to question that assessment I'm sure too.

Yeah. I guess I can.

.. once I get out of this ->-bleeped-<- hole of a town.

[insideontheoutside]

Yeah. I guess I can.

.. once I get out of this ->-bleeped-<- hole of a town.

You will. Just don't be so hard on yourself in the meantime. As japple said, being in a creative field gives you LOTS of leeway that other industries wouldn't afford you. And when you really get into it, you'll find so many people who don't "genderize" things or discriminate against you because you might not fit the stereotypical gender profile.

[japple]

.. once I get out of this ->-bleeped-<- hole of a town.

The town isn't on here being judgmental.  I'd say that you should work very hard on how hard you're being on yourself and other people.  You can go somewhere else, but if you bring this judgmental baggage you might not find yourself falling into the right creative crowd who can support, inspire, and compete. 

The creative culture just isn't where you're coming from.  So many people who become artists grew up as nerds, or sick, or damaged in some way.  They are full of empathy.  Tons of great artists I've met have level of aspbergers.  I've met famous actors and actresses that have insane amounts of social anxiety, despite being well loved.

I see a lot of similarities between the angst of being trans and being an artist.  It's very difficult for an artist to be happy with themselves and be good.  To get to a comfortable place takes years of very difficult work.  There are no half measures.  Being a creative person AND trans is no picnic. 

Here is a great video from Ira Glass on Youtube that talks about creativity and the judgment one has on oneself:

[PixieBoy]

Mostly men make "moe" artwork. Moe is, simply put, drawing everything to be as sweet and huggable as possible, usually giving characters some odd quirks and weaknesses to get the protection instinct from the viewer as well. When women draw moe, they tend to deconstruct it, such as mixing adorable artstyle with horribly broken characters, or really cute and cuddly-looking gore.

I think that, well, girls tend to like guys who can draw other things than monsters, naked women with huge breasts, and violence. I'm not saying that all guys draw those thing, but most hobby-artist guys draw things like that.

You shouldn't worry. Also, how can you tell if a drawing is masculine or feminine? Some people think that the paintings by the artist Mucha has to be drawn by a woman because there are lots of flowers, drapes and beautiful women, but Alphonse Mucha is a man.

Who says you can't be a bit "feminine"? Many guys are "feminine", especially artists. The people who say you can't be "feminine" are absolute idiots, ignore them.

[Father Way]

Also, how can you tell if a drawing is masculine or feminine?

Who says you can't be a bit "feminine"? Many guys are "feminine", especially artists. The people who say you can't be "feminine" are absolute idiots, ignore them.

Not a painting major, but other than subject matter, I think there are elements that can make a painting 'feminine' or 'masculine'. Such as the use of color, brush strokes, lines, texture etc.

Yep, if someone tells you s*t like that, ignore them like PixieBoy said. It's dumbest thing to say to ftms yet many people seem don't understand (or don't want to understand us at all) D:

Some of my pieces violate this norm and confront it. I even put my pointe shoes on and danced in a performance video xD

[Rock_chick]

The creative culture just isn't where you're coming from.  So many people who become artists grew up as nerds, or sick, or damaged in some way.  They are full of empathy.  Tons of great artists I've met have level of aspbergers.  I've met famous actors and actresses that have insane amounts of social anxiety, despite being well loved.

I see a lot of similarities between the angst of being trans and being an artist.  It's very difficult for an artist to be happy with themselves and be good.  To get to a comfortable place takes years of very difficult work.  There are no half measures.  Being a creative person AND trans is no picnic. 

I think I have yet to meet a creative type (especially the really talented ones) that isn't fragile in some way. Being creative can be hard to come to terms with...you either berate yourself for not being good enough, or, if you're anything like me, feel guilty as hell about being talented in the first place. But if we weren't messed up in some way, we wouldn't be creative types would we.

Oooooh, japple and insideontheoutside...you've worked in comics? Any particular titles? Big comic fan girl here.

[1234]

People tell me that if I was going to draw and retain masculinity, at least I should find expertise in mecha (which seem to be the only realm of art that is masculine). I draw mecha but I suck at it.

Artistic inpiration: Peter Gluck, Ftm floral painter
http://www.computerconsultingservices.net/mensworld/images/FTMArtists.htm

[Lachlann]

I resent the Mecha comment. Or the fact that art is 'feminine' because I'm not sure how it is unless you're talking about subject matter... and if that's the case then you're on the wrong track altogether.

Concept art and Illustration are very masculine art realms. Don't even get me started on comic art. Mecha is just a subject matter and it's not something you could get a job with unless you could draw a million other mechanical things. You'd better be damn good if you can only draw one subject matter really well and try to live off of it.

My art would be considered very masculine due to subject matter. However there are guys who draw really feminine things as well, but this has been stated a thousand times over.

Point is... when you send in that portfolio, they probably wont care about what you draw in your personal time, they want to see what you can offer them. Sometimes you're even going to have to put together a portfolio for a specific company just so you can show them what you have to offer them that's worth their time. Often times what you draw for your own enjoyment isn't even marketable.

So find a market you can get into. Ignore the gender stuff because in reality the only thing they care about is the portfolio. Make sure it's a market you like or at least tolerate and then start working toward that! The reason why it's important to find one you like or tolerate is because odds are you will be drawing things you don't like and you might as well be in an industry you'd enjoy.

Draw whatever the hell you want in your own personal time. You're gonna need it so you don't get burnt out. There's a huge difference between personal art and art that you do for work.

[tekla]

I've met famous actors and actresses that have insane amounts of social anxiety, despite being well loved.

Yeah, there is an old theater joke to the effect that if you have one major psychological problem you can be a stagehand, if you have two you can be a producer/director, and if you have three or more take acting lessons.  A huge part of the allure to acting is you don't have to be yourself.

And that quest for perfection not only drives the creative process, it also drives people crazy.  It's why I never tell anyone "God you were so good tonight, that wasthebestconcertever!"  I tell them "Hey, I really liked that."  Because I know they are NOT thinking they were great, they are thinking that the second note of the fifth measure on the last song they hit a wrong note.  Lots of people have some degree of musical talent, but to really, really be good takes a real obsession along with the talent (and a hella lot of discipline).

in reality the only thing they care about is the portfolio
Word.  One of the things I always like about doing academic work was that it didn't matter who, or what I was, all that mattered were the words on the printed page.  So either your work is in line with what they are looking for, or it ain't.  You are not part of the equation

[popweasel]

You shouldn't worry. Also, how can you tell if a drawing is masculine or feminine? Some people think that the paintings by the artist Mucha has to be drawn by a woman because there are lots of flowers, drapes and beautiful women, but Alphonse Mucha is a man.

Who says you can't be a bit "feminine"? Many guys are "feminine", especially artists. The people who say you can't be "feminine" are absolute idiots, ignore them.

yeah! I respect Mucha as a guy even though he has femme style, but if he was a "woman trying to be a man" (as people call me), then I would start questioning whether he's really male-brain wired person or if he's just bsing himself. You may tell me it's wrong to judge in gender binary but I think the gender binary does matter to an extent, or at least, I've been raised to think that way.

Telling me that there are many femme male artists won't make me feel any better. I already know that artist men are stereotyped to be more "feminine" than others. That's why I don't want to be called out an as artist.

Thanks kiris.

[Wraith]

My experience with my artistic vein, is I've always been told that I'm very unique as a girl, just because I do art, I listen to "guy" music, I like gaming, and my topics of interest are usually far from the feminine spectrum (I'm still FAR from the stereotypical guy as well though, no sports or cars or any such things, I'm just an artsy nerd, especially a fantasy nerd).

But that's where my problem was. I hated being seen as special and being praised for such and such just because people saw me as a "strong woman" who did all that stuff. When I then heard I had a feminine style it was the last straw.

I haven't done art for several years now and it's making me depressed. I really want to get back into arts and crafts(as a hobby) because that's what I love to do, but I have no motivation to do anything about it, my creativity is killed. I reckon I won't be able to get back into it until I'm feeling more comfortable with who I am and have sorted those negative feelings.

[popweasel]

I feel ya. It's either I am "special", "far from being a guy because I draw like girl", or anything else but a guy. Well, that's society.

Care to share your art if you don't mind?