Writing a Story, Need some advice!

[Writer Guy]

Hi there! I am a graphic novel artist and writer who is working on a project concerning transgender issues, and I thought I should go right to the source. There is a lot of good information on this site, but I would like to possibly get some advice straight from some of the people on here. I am looking to portray the concepts of the transgender community as appropriately as possible. I have already learned there are plenty of offensive terms that people use that are unacceptable, and that is what I am trying to avoid. I would like to get it right. 

Here is premise of what I am writing: it basically is a science fiction story about a girl who is transported far into the future. In the future the male/female system has been changed to male/female/intersex (I would classify the third major gender as intersex just because as it is written they have a primarily female appearance/behavior with female & male genitalia). Something has shifted in human biology that has produced a large enough population of intersex people that somewhere around 2075 there is a revolution of sorts, and this third majority gender is acknowledged (as well as all other variants of the LGT community, but they are not as large as this new majority gender). Basically America transitions into a country with three major genders and quite a but less gender discrimination.

The story will basically revolve around this girl who ends up there and has an incredible perspective on the human condition from seeing how different this future is from her own time (a timeline where she sees outward aggression and hatred towards anyone who is different; black white gay straight male female transgender etc.)

I know this is a general outline of the story, but I can certainly get into the details if need be. I would like to know how to appropriately approach this and what a conceivable name would be for a large population of intersex people who identify as women would be called ( "Andros?" "Ladies?") Thank you for listening, and hopefully you can help me out!

[LordKAT]

People who identify as women would be called women, intersex or otherwise.

[Emmanuelle]

I think the name would depend on their position in society and on how the evolved as a group. Going for obvious names the connotations will be stereotypical for the reader (e.g. "Andros" is something "male", so either: a "more developed male" or a "lesser male"). I think it would be more interesting to look how other cultures, where pluri-gender constructs have been integrated, deal with the matter (think: hijras, berdache...).

[Sandy]

WG:

While your premise is interesting, I hardly think it truly touches the transsexual experience.  So I may not have the practical knowledge you are seeking, though I do have my opinions.

Were you to have a three gender arrangement, then there are three genders.  If you research the south Asian transsexual population, they are called Hijra and are considered third sex.  They are addressed as women, but may or may not have had surgery.  They may also be IS.

Most MTF transsexuals in that region are not considered truly female though referred to in the feminine pronoun, and they have relinquished their male identities.  In fact one Thai airline is hiring "Katoe" for some of their charter flights as flight attendants.

Many on this list are IS.  They may well respond as well.  And we have the honor of having at least one published author in our number.

Feel free to ask whatever questions you like, we are a wealth of knowledge and practical experience.

Also WriterGuy is such a clumsy name.  Do you have a real name that we can address you as?  Thanks.

-Sandy

[Tammy Hope]

if I may, the answers you are getting are consistent with the sort of question you asked but the question doesn't really reflect what you really want to know.

Speaking from a fiction writer's mentality, more than from a trans mentality, the question you can ask this community can only be "here's what I'm thinking, am I being unintentionally offensive?"

what you need, if i may exercise my creativity a bit, is a SF answer, not a trans answer.

be creative. Like, for instance, call them "treys" (or is it "tray"? the reference to the three card?)

Or, think of it as "new-type woman" or, for a slang corruption, NuWo"

There are probably 100 different ways to do it but you need a newly coined term, not an appropriation of an existing term.

at the very most, whatever you create can only be a linguistic extrapolation of an existing term "intersex" becomes "intras" for instance.

find something that, in the context of your character's lingo and speech patterns and so forth, fits in. for instance, if the common language used in your story is loaded with very shortened verbiage - of the sort usually found in SF stories by the way - where people use an economy of words (not unlike textspeak really) then the word would be a short, one or two syllable word to fit into that sort of speech.

IF you story includes a bit of "backstory" as to the rise of this phenomena - say some character is doing some exposition then that would be a good chance for that character to describe where the term you are using came from.

See if you can come up with something creative - maybe even an acronym...

Odds are if you stay away from the "trans" modifier completely, you'll be fine.

[Writer Guy]

If you must have a less clumsy name you can call me "Guy" because that is my name 

I like where you are coming from Tammy, in that it should be an abbreviated name in newspeak, similar to George Orwells 1984, or Clockwork Orange's own language. The titles assigned to the Katoe and Hijra are exactly the kind of thing I was going for; its basically a three gender society. Nuwo and Tray or Trais sound like pretty good terms actually.

[Sandy]

Guy it is then.

I might ask how the Trais (my favorite), become a numerable majority?  Are they fertile/potent?  Or are they barren?  If they were barren, then their numbers could only increase through heteronormative procreation.  Effectively having a sub population of mules.  If they can get pregnant or impregnate then are their progeny Trais as well, or could they be male/female/trais?  Gender pronouns could be interesting as well.  Some andros prefer to be referred to in the gender neutral, such as zir.

Asimov once wrote a story which incorporated a species that had three genders.  But intercourse incorporated all three partners to procreate and also to meld into a higher developed species.  It also incorporated uranium 236, which is impossible, but that is part of the story line.

Also are they accepted by the rest of the population?  I don't know how much other research you may have done,  but people have a tendency to fear that which is different.  We are very different people and society's fear and hatred of us is almost a given.  I would not think that the society you envision would have reached any sort of stability without some serious social upheaval.

Burgess used a bastardization of Russian to come up with the "droogspeak" in Clockwork Orange.  Perhaps by incorporating some variation of the terms used in India for hijra could be used as the basis for the nomenclature used by trais.

Also, many think that our need to exchange gender is done primarily for some sort of sexual gratification.  I would hope that you could deal compassionately on this point.  I would hope that your third genders are given some sort of rational treatment and are shown that they are people first and not lecherous  sex fiends.

-Sandy

[Tammy Hope]

that's an important part - if the "trais" are respected and accepted, the term will be a relatively vanilla word, if they are pariahs, ten it will be a pejorative term (like"queer" was for a long time)

so the manner in which you intend to use the word might influence the word you choose.

[Writer Guy]

I totally agree with the notion that they should be respected as people first rather then sex fiends. That's the core idea of the story; that sexual orientation is one part of what makes up being human.

As for how the Trais came to be I had envisioned that there is a kind of biological flux in the human population which leads a great deal of children to be born as Trais; almost a baby boom of sorts specific towards Trais. Initially the two gender population is extremely against it and a lot of Trais are forced into a male or female orientation through surgery, but as time passed more and more Trais were born, enough so that they begin to demand rights, respect, etc.

The population would look roughly like 30% Male, 30% Female, and 30% Trais. Trais will also be able to have children, and it would break down into a somewhat lovely Punnett Square as far as what likelihood the parents will have in reproducing a Trai child. (weather the contributing parents are trai to trai, trai to female, male to trai, and male to female).

Because it is linked in with human biology there are also those who try and prevent their children from being born Trais in the first place, and many succeed. That being said, the general population cannot afford / doesn't think it's natural to mess with their children's biology so a great number of Trais continue to be born. Earlier in the history of this fictitious story there is a whole scandal with an international cloning project and it really shakes up the world about messing with human DNA.  I know, its a bit crazy.

There will definitely be those in the story that are opposed to Trais but they are simply outnumbered by the masses of Trais and Trai supporters. There will also be a group that believes Trais are the evolution of humanity. Both of these groups are seen as extremely radical, and the majority of the population simply accepts Trais as just another gender alongside men and women.

[LordKAT]

That's the core idea of the story; that sexual orientation is one part of what makes up being human.

it basically is a science fiction story about a girl who is transported far into the future. In the future the male/female system has been changed to male/female/intersex

I hope you realize and that gender ( who someone is) and sexual orientation (who someone is attracted to) are in no way connected.

If you were to somehow imply they were, you would be doing none here a kind service.

[Writer Guy]

Could you explain that a little more, because I guess I am having difficulty understanding what you are saying.

As I said before, that's why I am even posting here, I want to get this right and have accurate information to work with.

Thank you!

[Hyde]

Your story sounds quite interesting, giving intersexed people more of a spotlight. I hope you know that there are variations in intersexed persons, and what organs they have. In all truthfulness, I'm technically intersexed, but my mother raised me and physically forced me into being female throughout my childhood/teenager years, which probably nullifies my formerly intersexed status. Even though I'm ItFtM, I consider myself an FtM (or just male in public) to make things less complicated for myself.

Gender/Gender identity is how you identify yourself in society. (Man, woman, intersexed, androgyne, bi-gendered, genderqueer, neutrois, etc) Sex on the other hand, is the biological body you were born with. (Male, female, intersexed, etc)

Gender and sex are two different things. A transgender could be born with their sex as male but identify themselves as the female gender. A cisgendered person (meaning people who have no internalized gender conflicts) are born female and therefore identify themselves as female. 

Like LordKat said, gender and sexual orientation are two entirely different realms. Sexual orientation encompasses all aspects of what gender you are attracted to (romantically, sexually, etc). Even though sexual orientation can also be a form of personal identification, it's more of a 'personal interest' subject. However, how one identifies their gender does have some correlation to what type of sexual orientation they hold towards people. (Heterosexual, Homosexual, Bisexual, Pansexual, Demisexual, Asexual, etc) For example; A transgender who identifies themselves as male is primarily attracted to males and has only had sexual contact with males would make him homosexual.

[Sandy]

Could you explain that a little more, because I guess I am having difficulty understanding what you are saying.

As I said before, that's why I am even posting here, I want to get this right and have accurate information to work with.

Thank you!

Guy:

Here is a graph about the spectrum of diversity in regards to gender and sex:


I've used graphs similar to this in my introductory workshops about being transsexual.

There are four general components to a persons gender and all of them are a spectrum or a range.

As Lord Kat mentioned sexual orientation and gender identity are two separate parts.

The top range represents the characteristics of the genitalia.  And is usually assigned at the moment of birth.

The second range is a persons internal feelings of gender, how they feel within themselves whether they are male or female, regardless of the configuration of their external genitalia.

The third range is a persons social presentation of gender.  This is more related to how they prefer to dress and present themselves to society.

And the fourth range is sexual orientation.  This represents what gender they are attracted to.

Now if you draw a straight line down the left hand side of all the ranges, you have a person who was born with unambiguous female genitalia, has an internal feeling of being female, makes a social presentation of female, and is attracted to males.  That would be the classic definition of a straight woman.  And if you draw a line down the right side you have a classically straight male.

Transsexuals are people whose internal sense of gender is opposite of their genitalia.  If a person is born with female genitalia but have an internal sense of being male, they would be generally defined as "female to male" transsexual, or ftm.  And opposite of that would be a person with male genitalia but an internal sense of being female.  These would be "male to female" transsexuals or mtf.

Note that neither of these ranges have anything to do with a persons sexual orientation.  A ftm could be romantically attracted to either males or females, or somewhere in between.

That is why trying to assign labels like gay or straight to transsexuals is meaningless.  We could be considered simultaneously gay AND straight.

By trying to clarify the situation, I'm afraid I may have muddied the waters instead.  This is a very complex issue and may be difficult to frame within a story or graphic novel.  And a simple Punnett square really does not represent the true nature of things as they are.  Even if you were to expand it to encompass all the variables, the implication is that these are binary values, and they are not.  For example, a person could be attracted to both males and females, a bisexual, and would not have a meaningful representation on the square.

Now you, of course, as author, are free to make any generalities you wish within the frame of your story.  And the whole point of story telling is to tell a story and not necessarily get bogged down in details.  You mentioned that the subject of your story is a person who is contemporary to the current time who is transported in time to the future and observes a society that has three general genders and then the effects that such a society would have as viewed through the eyes of your subject.  That may make for a good read, but, oversimplification could make it less acceptable to people such as ourselves.

Both Spider Robinson and Ursula LeGuinn have written novels that have a fluid gender as a major component of the society and are interesting reads as well.  They both grappled with the complex issues regarding gender, sexuality, and attraction.  They both came at it from different angles and produced surprisingly good stories.

I wish you the best of luck in your story.  I'd really like to see it when it is completed.  Feel free to ask any questions you may have.

-Sandy

[Tammy Hope]

A great explanation Sandy.

I wouldn't mind knowing the name of the titles you mentioned - particularly the Spider Robinson book. I've heard good things about him and would like to see what I think.

[Sandy]

A great explanation Sandy.

I wouldn't mind knowing the name of the titles you mentioned - particularly the Spider Robinson book. I've heard good things about him and would like to see what I think.

Thank you Tammy.

The LeGuinn book is "The Left Hand of Darkness" which is listed on her website:
http://www.ursulakleguin.com/Index-LeftHandOfDarkness.html

It terrifies me a little bit because it is the 40th anniversary of it's publishing, and I read it when it was first released.  Gawd I am such an old bat...

In this novel, the people are gender neutral, though they take on individual male and female characteristics socially.  When they go into estrus, however, they become either male or female in genitalia and can impregnate or be impregnated by others who are also in heat.  So gender pronouns and sexual references can become interesting.  In one such case, for example, a news report comes to the protagonist that announces "The King is Pregnant".

However, having set me to task for the Robinson book, I'm afraid, I have come up empty handed.  I cannot for the life of me remember the title, nor is there any reference to it on his website or other internet resources.  I'm beginning to doubt my memory now.  See my previous statement about being an old bat.  I could have sworn it was one of his.  I believe it was about the same time he wrote Starmind, but I cannot find anything on it.

In synopsis, as my failing memory recalls, it is a little bit different in approach, as all children are born gender neutral, though as they go through puberty they permanently become either male or female.  It is done mostly by choice, interaction with others, and social pressure.  All of the people are referred to in the feminine, even though they may have taken on male sexual characteristics.  There is an exposition about the differences when, in an exchange, a child asks innocently; "Why is she so much taller then her, and why are her breasts so much smaller?"

I found that story a bit unsatisfying because the ending was rather unfulfilling and the story just basically stopped with no real resolution to a couple of story lines that were just left unanswered.  Even with stories that are told over multiple novels, the hanging story lines are usually given a hook to entice the reader to buy the next book.  This one felt like it was written as a contractual obligation of so many words and was cut off at exactly the word count required.  Weird.  I will do more searching and see what I can come up with.

Other authors have toyed with gender and sexuality swaps, such as Farmer and Zelazny.  But these are usually just plot devices used to move the story forward and not a crucial part of the story.

-Sandy

[Writer Guy]

Thank you for explaining that a little more! 

As far as the Punnett Square was concerned I guess I was referring to biological sex; in no way dipping into the complexities of gender identity, expression, or sexual orientation. I was referring to the biological percentage of people born as Trais from specific unions.

I understand that there is a vast spectrum within these groups, but in the case of this story the society itself is socialized towards a dominant class known as the Trais. As seen on the Identity Spectrum the Trias Sex would be intersex, their Gender Identity, Gender Expression, and Sexual Orientation would be dependent upon the individual.

One of the uniting factors of the Trais; however, is that the society in which they exist has a lot of societal pressures to be perceived as Feminine in terms of Gender Identity and Gender Expression. There's kind of a shift in power and to be feminine is seen to have greater qualities then it is to be masculine; some of the pro-trai groups within this future even go so far to state that men are the cause of all society's evils.

These are societal pressures but they do not dictate what the true Gender Identity or Gender Expression of some Trais are, and there are Trais who try to blend in with society and those who are true to themselves and represent themselves however they feel (represent themselves as masculine, genderqueer, androgynous, etc.)

I hope I have explained this well enough, feel free to correct me. 

[Sandy]

Thank you for explaining that a little more! 

There's kind of a shift in power and to be feminine is seen to have greater qualities then it is to be masculine; some of the pro-trai groups within this future even go so far to state that men are the cause of all society's evils.

I hope I have explained this well enough, feel free to correct me. 

Lordy, Guy, you could be inducted into the feminist science fiction writers hall of fame!    Le Guinn is quite the feminist and there was quite a feminist movement in the science fiction community.  RAH was called out on more than one occasion for while he quite often wrote stories with strong female characters, Podkayne of Mars for example, he very much embodied the classic "Man as Head of Household" mentality. 

Actually, you have explained yourself quite well.  I think I get the gist of your story line now.  The overall ideas seem like a somewhat more fluid MTF trans community, but magnified to be 30% of the population and are fertile intersex.  This is akin to the hijra or kathoey subcultures in middle and far east societies.  Overall they are considered more feminine, but are not considered female.

It is interesting that your premise could be considered a de-masculinized male, but societal pressures forces them to be perceived as fem, however there is no societal pressure to recognize a de-feminized female as male.

Just as an aside *as Sandy drags out her soapbox*, current society considers flamboyant males or those who act in a less than masculine male way as not being a part of the male world and are shunned by most males.  However, women who dress or act butch are still considered women and are not shunned by most females.  Your story idea reflects this same mentality.  Now that may very well be your intension, especially after your statement that within your story there are some that consider men to be an anathema to society.  And you have a very strong female power base within your story.  One purpose of speculative fiction is to magnify and examine something to see its effect on society.

I have yet to read any speculative fiction or science fiction that turns this idea on its head and makes males accepting of all types of masculine representation and have females the regimented ones.  Of course females have been regimented for centuries and forced to accept their position as less beings, but males have never been accepting of an emotional male and have always considered them weak.  After all the strongest insult to call a man is a pussy (now politically corrected to call them wussy).  But calling a woman a dick is a considered a non-sequitur.  The only comparable insult is to compare them to an animal, but still a female animal (bitch).

Anyway, that wasn't a judgement on your story idea, Guy, just me typing out loud, so to speak.

I'd love to see more.  If you have developed any character sketches or have some sample passages you would like to share I would happily read them.

-Sandy

[Sandy]

I wouldn't mind knowing the name of the titles you mentioned - particularly the Spider Robinson book. I've heard good things about him and would like to see what I think.

I hate having an itch I can't scratch!

The closest I could find any reference to this idea this from the Wikipedia entry about  Elizabeth Mann-Borgese in the Gender in Science Fiction entry:

In My Own Utopia (1961) by Elizabeth Mann-Borgese, gender exists but is dependent upon age rather than sex—genderless children mature into women, some of whom eventually become men.

That is the essential story line that I remember but it is the wrong date.  I distinctly remember discussing the book with a friend and drawing parallels between "The Left Hand of Darkness"  and the book I mentioned.  And also that they were released about the same time.

Additionally, there is very little information about Elizabeth Mann-Borgese as regards her as a fiction writer.

Here is the wiki link:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_in_science_fiction#Single-gender_worlds:_utopias_and_dystopias

I also remember donating that book, and about 5000 others (really!), to the library in one of my various moves.  *damn*

-Sandy(still scratching)

[Tammy Hope]

I've been toying, seems like forever, with how to do a SF story/novel that had a Trans-centric plot ...but trying to come up with one that would be a "mainstream" story, not a trans story dressed in SF robes.

Haven't yet found anything satisfying and frankly my biggest weakness so far is that i can't even begin an idea that works both ways (i.e. M2F and F2M) - almost all of them are decent ideas M2F but don't work at all the other way round.

But then, the story of my writing "career" is great seeds (a concept, a character, a scene) that i never manage to grow into a whole story or book. I could probably list two dozen concepts that I love but that I've been unable to flesh out.

i think the SF/Trans ideas are the weakest of those but I'm really fascinated by the idea of being able to bring such a project off and have it well received.

[Writer Guy]

That's actually one of the greatest challenges I have had as a writer too; its easy to see a broad storyline but its all the little dialogues and details that can be difficult to figure out. The inspiration and passion you have for that one scene or that one character needs to extend to the entire story.

I think with the story I am working on its important to have a high concept; have a truth or statement about human nature be the main theme or goal that I try to get across.