Susan's Place Logo

News:

Based on internal web log processing I show 3,417,511 Users made 5,324,115 Visits Accounting for 199,729,420 pageviews and 8.954.49 TB of data transfer for 2017, all on a little over $2,000 per month.

Help support this website by Donating or Subscribing! (Updated)

Main Menu

HRT doesn't seem to be working at all...

Started by JungianZoe, April 14, 2011, 02:15:22 AM

Previous topic - Next topic

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

JungianZoe

Hi all!  As you can tell from my post count, I'm a bit new here.  Was going to post first in introductions, but this was so pressing that I couldn't wait.  Introduction to come later.  ;)

So I was warned by my doctor (kind of in passing) when I started HRT that there were some people for whom hormones have no effect, and I'm becoming scared that I'm one of them.  My first three months on HRT was spent taking a fairly high dose of spiro and a medium dose of E, but my T levels were still 650.  So the doc took me off the spiro and put me on depo shots every three months, as well as doubling my dose of E.

Now, after seven months of HRT, I'm not even half a AA cup, and though my face has changed, emotions run rampant, and my sex drive was knocked out, nothing else seems to change at all.  About three weeks ago, the breast pains I had completely disappeared and haven't been back since.  I never had any chest or back hair, but had some thick hairs on my arms and legs which haven't decreased in thickness or amount.  Facial hair, which again was never much (couldn't even grow sideburns despite being 33 years old) hasn't slowed one iota... even after 9 laser treatments and one electrolysis session, I still feel scruffy nine to ten hours after shaving.  Testicle shrinkage?  Not a bit (they appear to be growing).  Morning erections still happen two or three times a week (currently increasing in number) and they're not the slightest bit softer than before HRT.

Most disturbing of all, my voice seems to be dropping (not as easy to reach high notes as usual and I've been a singer for years) and my adam's apple, which was almost invisible when I started HRT, has seemingly become a bit bigger these past few weeks.

So what gives...?  Why does my body seem to be reversing gears?  For the record, I'm 33, in perfect health, 5'11", 130 lb, no chronic medical conditions.  My metabolism is kind of insane though... I eat about 3000 to 4000 calories a day and don't gain weight, and any prescription I've ever taken in my life has had to be of the maximum dosage of the most potent medication on the market (and even then would always lose effectiveness after no more than two weeks).

All I know is that I'm really really frustrated and crying several times a day over what seems to be a total reversal of what little gains I made in the early stages of HRT.  Why is my body seemingly masculinizing on HRT?  The doctor didn't check my T levels at my last appointment (the six-month check) because I was having a reduction in sex drive and breast tenderness.  But in the month since that appointment, it's all falling apart.

Has anyone else experienced (or heard) of anything similar...?  I'm getting desperate.
  •  

Joelene9

  Some transitioners have these problems.  It'll take time for you.  Yes, your endochrine system is fighting off the estrogen by producing more T.  This action may taper off.  When it does, the changes usually come on quickly.  I seen some TGs that took two years before anything stabilizes and the changes start to happen.  It is cases like yours that is one of the reasons that they monitor their TG patients with their hormone levels.  Be patient, your doctor will try other methods later. 
  Joelene
  •  

Medusa

Maybe the orchiectomy would be good choice for you
IMVU: MedusaTheStrange
  •  

JungianZoe

Thank you both for some clarification! :D

Joelene, though I've been stressing about this, I'm trusting in the doctor given that she's highly recommended in this area and knows what she's doing.  That also means she's busy and appointments are six to eight weeks in advance. lol  Eight weeks at this point would be my nine-month check so I'll continue being patient and hope this levels out or, even better, improves.

Medusa, though I swore I'd never do that since SRS results are better if you don't (so I've heard) I'm beginning to seriously consider that as a real possibility if my stubborn T levels can't be pharmaceutically suppressed.

--------------------

And to everyone else, sorry I used "seem" so much in that first post.  I was writing on little sleep, awake for 20 hours, and only 4 hours before I had to be up again.  The editor in my brain had already hit the sack.  :laugh:
  •  

JessicaH

Spiro is kind of a week anti androgen and depo provera in higher doses can actually convert to T.  I know lots of people that had much better results taking cyproterone acetate but it is not FDA approved, so if you are in the US you would have to import it. It is widely used around the world and I am not sure why it isnt FDA approved.

Some people incorectly believe that it is especially hard on the liver but the studies that showed liver problems were from geriatric use at VERY high dosages which were aimed at driving T to zero where all we need is to get it down around 50. Much lower is very undesirable. Is your endo experienced in M2F transition? She may be a good endo but not very knowledgeable on HRT transition.

Good luck!
  •  

cynthialee

Sounds like you need to get an orchi.

That will kill T production.

So it is said that if you know your enemies and know yourself, you can win a hundred battles without a single loss.
If you only know yourself, but not your opponent, you may win or may lose.
If you know neither yourself nor your enemy, you will always endanger yourself.
Sun Tsu 'The art of War'
  •  

Keroppi

Quote from: JungianZoe on April 14, 2011, 07:28:50 AM
Medusa, though I swore I'd never do that since SRS results are better if you don't (so I've heard) I'm beginning to seriously consider that as a real possibility if my stubborn T levels can't be pharmaceutically suppressed.
Well, as long as the surgeon knows you're planning SRS some point in the future, they should be able to take that into account and not remove too much / any skin one might want for surgery later. In that sense, a surgeon that offers SRS as well might be better, and they usually give a discount if you have both surgery with them.
  •  

JungianZoe

Thank you all for the further replies!  About my doc, she's extremely well-versed in M2F transition as she's one of the top-recommended docs in my area for that very thing.  I trust that she knows exactly what she's doing and it'll be interesting to see where my T levels are in 2 months and what she suggests if they're still off the charts.

I can honestly stand the lack of body hair reduction and shaving the dark bits of hair on the top of my wrists.  The return of male-smelling sweat can be masked, and I have every confidence that I'll finally have breast development once T is under control.  But I seriously can't abide the deepening voice or swelling adam's apple.  I'll ask my doc about the orchi next time I'm in if this doesn't stop.

What are the standards on getting an orchi?  Full-time/hormones for a certain period?  I'm only seven months on hormones, a month and a half full time.  But I really don't see the point of continuing HRT without the orchi if I'm just going to masculinize in ways my body never did before.  I'm really afraid of that happening.
  •  

kate durcal

5 11 130 lb and 4000 cal! You have a problem. You should be at least 170 lb. you are like a cisfemale athlete not enough fat  recommend see endo, do complete endo evaluation
kate
  •  

JungianZoe

Quote from: kate durcal on April 14, 2011, 06:31:24 PM
5 11 130 lb and 4000 cal! You have a problem. You should be at least 170 lb. you are like a cisfemale athlete not enough fat  recommend see endo, do complete endo evaluation
kate

Really don't have a problem that I know of... I've been like this my entire life, and both my parents are like this too.  I've recently pushed my calorie intake to nearly 5000/day to try gaining weight and I think it's working.  Gained about 5 pounds in the last 3 months, but I'm going to have to stop doing this because it's hurting my stomach too much.

Sad thing is that I don't even get much exercise except for playing the drums.  And I freeze to death if it's below 80 degrees.

As for my doc, she's an endo.  Got an eval and had a clean bill of health.  Nothing's really going wrong, just that my body is good at countering everything I put into it (except alcohol, and I'm a total lightweight so I don't drink).  A doctor once said my liver and kidneys were "rock and roll gods" with how efficiently they metabolize everything.
  •  

kate durcal

for females it goes:
5'11"
   

135-148  small frame, 145-159 medium frame, 155-176 large frame

for males it goes

5'11"
   

146-157 small frame, 154-166 medium frame, 161-184 large frame

Even for a small frame female you are underweight, no amount of estrgen would make a differnce unitll you increase your BMI.

  •  

Jacelyn

QuoteI know lots of people that had much better results taking cyproterone acetate but it is not FDA approved, so if you are in the US you would have to import it. It is widely used around the world and I am not sure why it isnt FDA approved.

A lot of writers in the chinese TG forum similarly recommended Androcur over Spiro (even warned about Spiro's negative effect), but I'm more in favour of Spiro due to lesser adverse effects after reviewing the facts on paper.

I quote below the adverse effects of cyproterone acetate (Androcur), hopefully it answered why it isnt FDA approved:

Cardiovascular system
hypotension, tachycardia, heart failure, syncope, myocardial infarct, hemorrhage, cerebrovascular
accident, cardiovascular disorder, retinal vascular disorder, embolus, pulmonary embolism,
superficial and deep thrombophlebitis, thrombosis, retinal vein thrombosis, phlebitis, vascular
headache, shock.

Gastrointestinal system
constipation, diarrhea, indigestion, anorexia, nausea, vomiting, cholestatic jaundice, cirrhosis of
liver, hepatic coma, hepatitis, hepatoma, hepatomegaly, jaundice, liver carcinoma, liver failure,
abnormal liver function test, liver necrosis, pancreatitis, glossitis.

Hematology
increased fibrinogen, decreased prothrombin, thrombocytopenia, anemia, hemolytic anemia,
hypochromic anemia, normocytic anemia, leukopenia, leukocytosis.

Metabolism
negative nitrogen balance, decreased response to ACTH, hyperglycemia, lowered cortisol,
hypercalcemia, increased SGOT, increased SGPT,  increased creatinine, hypernatremia, edema,
weight gain, weight loss, diabetes mellitus.

Musculoskeletal system
myasthenia, osteoporosis.

Nervous system
fatigue, lassitude, weakness, hot flashes, increased sweating, aphasia, coma, depression, dizziness,
encephalopathy, hemiplegia, personality disorder, psychotic depression, abnormal gait, headache.

Respiratory system
asthma, increased cough, dyspnea, hyperventilation, respiratory disorder, shortness of breath on
effort, lung fibrosis.

Skin
eczema, urticaria, erythema nodosum, exfoliative dermatitis, rash, maculopapular rash, dryness of
the skin, pruritus, alopecia, hirsutism, skin discolouration, photosensitivity reactions, scleroderma.

Sensory system
ear disorder, optic atrophy, optic neuritis,  abnormality of accommodation, abnormal vision,
blindness, retinal disorder.

QuoteMy first three months on HRT was spent taking a fairly high dose of spiro and a medium dose of E, but my T levels were still 650.  So the doc took me off the spiro and put me on depo shots every three months, as well as doubling my dose of E.

First, be aware that spiro itself does not decrease T level, it merely replaces T receptors, blocked its effects, in the process aim to lead to atrophy of testis within the period of at least six month, after which production of T will be low to non-existence.

Considered the fact that you are only on three month HRT, the level of T is not indication that the process of testis' atrophy had not already taken place, since the level of T at this time has no effect on the body due to Spiro taken their places. Thus withdrawer of Spiro at this point of test result is illogical to using spiro as a route of therapy.

As someone pointed out, your BMI does affect how much effect estrogen has on fat distribution (the main physical change).
  •  

JungianZoe

Well, I'll keep going on the weight gain plan then. :)  I really appreciate all of the info you've given me, as it makes sense.  Also, I'd forgotten about spiro being a receptor-blocker only (as a psych tutor, I'm very familiar with antagonistic effects).  So many people report testicular shrinkage after a short time on HRT that I'm left wondering why I've had no size reduction after seven months.

Made an appointment with my doc for this Tuesday (I'm totally shocked there was an opening) and I'll ask her about that.  Going to get my T levels checked since we didn't do it a month ago, just to see if it's the cause of the increasing masculinization I'm seeing on HRT.  Also going to find out about the orchi, as this ordeal mirrors the frustration many docs have had when prescribing me medications, given my body's infinite capacity to compensate for their effects.
  •  

JungianZoe

So I went to the doctor today, and far from feeling better when I left, I only felt worse.  She ordered a blood test to check all of my levels, but she also said that, given what we've done so far and my body's total resistance to change, that she's "pessimistic" about me having any success with HRT.  The words of my old gastro doctor even came back into being.  He called my liver a "rock and roll god," my endo called it superhuman.  Said that my liver is probably destroying over 99% of the estrogen before it has a chance at effectiveness, and that I'm most likely something like 1/100th mg as a result.

I don't know what to say right now except that I'm devastated... most people would be happy to have such a spectacularly functioning body, but when it comes with consequences like this, it's heart-breaking.  Guess I'll just have to wait another couple days to see what this blood test says.

In the meantime, my doc told me to take half of my estrogen in the morning, half in evening, and dissolve it under my tongue instead of swallowing it whole.  This is so some of it (not much, but some) has a chance of going into the bloodstream and bypassing the liver.  So I'll begin that regimen tomorrow morning.
  •  

Jacelyn

QuoteSaid that my liver is probably destroying over 99% of the estrogen before it has a chance at effectiveness, and that I'm most likely something like 1/100th mg as a result.

I read the effectiveness of oral estradial tap is 1% when going through first pasage through liver, so the above doctor's statement does not mean yours is special case.

If you dissolved in the mouth, it by-passed  first pasage through liver and effect of absorption based on intramascular injection is 10% (which should be similar).
  •  

soulfairer

Quote from: JungianZoe on April 20, 2011, 12:24:43 AM
So I went to the doctor today, and far from feeling better when I left, I only felt worse.  She ordered a blood test to check all of my levels, but she also said that, given what we've done so far and my body's total resistance to change, that she's "pessimistic" about me having any success with HRT.  The words of my old gastro doctor even came back into being.  He called my liver a "rock and roll god," my endo called it superhuman.  Said that my liver is probably destroying over 99% of the estrogen before it has a chance at effectiveness, and that I'm most likely something like 1/100th mg as a result.

I don't know what to say right now except that I'm devastated... most people would be happy to have such a spectacularly functioning body, but when it comes with consequences like this, it's heart-breaking.  Guess I'll just have to wait another couple days to see what this blood test says.

In the meantime, my doc told me to take half of my estrogen in the morning, half in evening, and dissolve it under my tongue instead of swallowing it whole.  This is so some of it (not much, but some) has a chance of going into the bloodstream and bypassing the liver.  So I'll begin that regimen tomorrow morning.

Did you consider using oestrogel or some equivalent? It is a gel that you apply directly to the skin, entering the blood stream, also bypassing the liver. Also there are skin patches.
  •  

JungianZoe

So glad to hear about some numbers on this method of administration (under the tongue)!  Thanks to all of you responded!

Never thought about gels or skin patches, but I've simply been letting my doctor guide the process and seeing what she recommends.  Though I'm definitely going to be asking more questions on my next visit, which could be really soon depending on the blood test results.  Those should come back tomorrow or Friday.  This doc is insanely fast with blood work results!

Eli, thank you so very much for the words of encouragement.  They mean a lot from someone who's got some of the same physical issues that I do... namely, being too damn healthy for our own good. ;)  And yes, the doc only JUST suggested this method of taking the estrogen because things seemed to be going swimmingly at my six-month checkup five weeks ago.  It's since then that it's all fallen apart.  She also said that getting depo shots takes about 5 times (or one year) before you see stabilization of depressed t-levels, but until then, the levels ebb during the middle of the shot cycle and peak closer to (and for a time after) injection.  As this was only my second shot, I might have been peaking.  After the last shot, I distinctly recall having no change for about a month, a month of intense changes and sheer bliss, then diminishing gains.  Maybe that's what's happening again.

As for injections, it hasn't been brought up yet.  My doctor wants me to try under-the-tongue administration for a couple weeks to a month, then get another blood test to check estrogen levels.  If it's all wonky after that, I'm going to see if she brings up injections.  If not, then I'll bring them up.  If that's not successful, I'll try another doc.  In any case, I'm not giving up on the most important thing in my life!
  •  

JungianZoe

The verdict is in: I probably was in a between-shot t spike, with little breast development due to low body weight.  The t level as of last Tuesday's blood draw, which was one month after my second depo shot, was 9.  Estradiol was over 100 even without administration under the tongue.

That was a very expensive lesson to learn, but at least I'm relieved that HRT is working on the chemical level.  :laugh:  I redoubled my efforts on the weight gain and am now at my heaviest point in nearly five years (and only 5 lbs. less than I was in high school, the last time I maintained a healthy weight).  Today I'm up to 140 and 150 is the goal.
  •  

~RoadToTrista~

  •