So is there a place for she-males?

[katia]

Katia said :-

they may present as female but [don't] have a [female] gender identity

how do you know that??

misty xxx

i used to know several of them.  people who do all the nauseating things they do behind a camera can't be called [women].  sorry this is my final answer to this million dollar topic.

We (society) need to accept people for who they are.  We need to support them and as long as this site is here we will.  I hope that we can learn that there is always a place for people.

i'm not sure if they'd care to join a [clean] site like susan's. they're used to joining more adult-oriented environments.  

[misty]

Katia said:-

i used to know several of them

what about the ones you dont know.......

misty xxx

[katia]

i see some opposition to my views toward [->-bleeped-<-s]; it'd seem that we're playing the cat and mouse game or some wicked version of [who doesn't want to be a ->-bleeped-<-] game.  my question is; is there anyone here who identifies as a [->-bleeped-<-]? if so, we'd love to have them come forward! ...  i'd [we'd] like to hear their version of what's being discussed here.

[Steph]

i see some opposition to my views toward [->-bleeped-<-s]; it'd seem that we're playing the cat and mouse game or some wicked version of [who doesn't want to be a ->-bleeped-<-] game.  my question is; is there anyone here who identifies as a [->-bleeped-<-]? if so, we'd love to have them come forward! ...  i'd [we'd] like to hear their version of what's being discussed here.

First off who is the "we", please do not include me in this game.  I started this post not as a game but as a serious thread for serious discussion, not rhetoric, finger pointing and whatever else.  Each member in good standing is entitled to be here with out fear of recrimination or being attacked and is entitled to be treated with respect.  They are not required to identify themselves or defend themselves unless they choose to.  And whatever a person identifies as is entirely up to them and as long as they abide by the rules they are quite welcome here.

Steph

[angelsgirl]

AMEN, SISTER! 

[beth]

i see some opposition to my views toward [->-bleeped-<-s]; it'd seem that we're playing the cat and mouse game or some wicked version of [who doesn't want to be a ->-bleeped-<-] game.  my question is; is there anyone here who identifies as a [->-bleeped-<-]? if so, we'd love to have them come forward! ...  i'd [we'd] like to hear their version of what's being discussed here.

                       I seriously doubt many define themselves as ->-bleeped-<-.  This is a word describing a porn catagory. There aren't many women identifying as MILFs, Hairy or Big breasted either.



beth

[angelsgirl]

There aren't many women identifying as MILFs, Hairy or Big breasted either.

You make an excellent point. I believe the euphemisms for those are mature, euporean, or full-figured, respectively.   

[tinkerbell]

There aren't many women identifying as MILFs, Hairy or Big breasted either

Okay kitties, I honestly did not know what MILFs meant, so I had to look it up..Wow!    LOL

tinkerbell

[Ricki]

Crap!  This post was great and i fear i missed the boat on most of it!
Darn.............
Stupid work gettin in the way..
Ricki

[katia]

Crap!  This post was great and i fear i missed the boat on most of it!

it'd have been great if [we] had kept our cool, . the story about sunday school repeats itself.... 
i sincerely apologize for coming across as a [game player]. i was [not] playing any games, or including any of [you] in any game.  my question was not directed at anyone in particular so i'd appreciate it if your answers are not directed at me either.  thank you very much.

[Laurry]

Hey all...gee, what a fun time I missed because I had to work all weekend (and then some).

First of all, YES!!! Anyone who seeks help and support, regardless of label applied or accepted, SHOULD AND WILL be welcome here (provided they play by the rules).  Anyone who thinks otherwise should try walking a mile in the the other one's high heels.

Secondly, as an androgyne who has male plumbing, I have considered breast augmentation in order to better present as either sex, but have no problem with what is between my legs.  No, I don't consider myself to be a woman, but neither do I consider myself a man.  So, if I had my breasts done but had no plans to ever get SRS, and you caught me skinny-dipping in the neighbor's pool, what term WOULD you use to describe what you saw?  More often than not, the term under discussion here would probably be used.

Additionally, I can forsee a time, in the right circumstances, where I would present full time as female for extended periods of time, yet never consider myself one.  How would you describe me then?

Thirdly, I, too, am not fond of the term ->-bleeped-<-, but if that is what someone wants to call themselves, who am I to argue?  Nobody fits any label 100%, but us humans, we want everything identified so we can file it away.  That is why I use labels: as a jumping-off point...a kind of landmark in the gender world.  This gets you in the neighborhood and as you begin to know more about me, the directions to who I am become clearer. 

Bottom line, I'm me...I am who I am.  What labels I chose to call myself, imperfect though they are, are used for communication purposes, not as self-descriptions.  What I am called by others, I have little or no control over.

And Finally...HOW DARE SOME OF YOU!  HOW DARE YOU JUDGE WHO IS FEMALE AND WHO IS NOT???  So you have a person who looks like a woman but has a penis and no plans to have it removed.  So what?  You have no problems accepting as female someone who claims to be female but presents as male and has no plans to transition anytime soon, yet you have trouble believing that this hypothetical "->-bleeped-<-" could be?  You should be ashamed of yourselves. 

.........Laurie   

P.S.  Sorry for the thumping, but closed-minded people really tick me off.  To see some who I have great respect for acting in such a manner really bums me out.

[cindianna_jones]

So, if I had my breasts done but had no plans to ever get SRS, and you caught me skinny-dipping in the neighbor's pool, what term WOULD you use to describe what you saw? 

I'm not sure that I would care... Sorry Laurie.  Now, if you had some very cool pool toys, I might join you for a swim.  I do support your position however.  I don't care what people call themselves.  I'm very big on non-discrimination..... even for things that I personally don't care for (which includes a lot of right wing falderal).   But I'm not so sure that this is a term that people use for themselves.  I've only seen this term used to sell porn.

Cindi

[angelsgirl]

So, if I had my breasts done but had no plans to ever get SRS, and you caught me skinny-dipping in the neighbor's pool, what term WOULD you use to describe what you saw?

Honestly? I'd probably be speechless (for once) if I caught anybody skinny-dipping, but in all seriousness if I absolutely had to describe what I saw I would (most unfortunately) say "it" because there is no appropriate word (that I know of) to describe.

Now, I'll call anyone what they wish to be called, but I have to know that info first before anyone can expect me to call them that. If I see someone naked that I don't know who has mixed sexual features, I'm not going to know which (if either) gender they consider themselves to be. I wouldn't have a clue as what gender to refer to them as or even if the are an androgyne or not.  This isn't a lack of respect. It's a lack of vocabulary.

Nobody fits any label 100%, but us humans, we want everything identified so we can file it away.  That is why I use labels: as a jumping-off point...a kind of landmark in the gender world.

This is an excellent point. We need labels to be able to give people the proper respect when we are talking to them and about them. They can be used for as much good as they can be used for harm in this respect.

That's just my two cents...

Edit: Fixed Quote - Melissa

[Kimberly]

who am I to argue?

HOW DARE YOU JUDGE

Exactly.

^*shrug*

[BrandiOK]

  Strangely enough an event similiar to the "pool" thing described by Laurie happened to me once.

  I was snorkling off a near deserted beach on the coast of Florida.  I happened to see a boat slowly idling by close enough I could see the topless driver who appeared, to me, to be male but had rather large feminine breasts.  The boat anchored probably around 40 yards away and the driver appeared to be tanning so I swam in the opposite direction to give him/her privacy. 

  When I got back to the beach my friend mentioned that he saw the same thing I did.  I was content with leaving the subject at that but my friend, who being a quizzical person by nature, decided to swim out and talk to the person in the boat.  I was a little surprised by how long they talked...I assumed the boat driver would have sent him packing upon arrival. 

  After what must have been a half an hour or so my friend swam back and related the abbreviated version of the conversation.  He said that he point blank asked the boat driver what gender he/she identified before engaging in conversation.  The driver said that "he" identified as male and that he was surprised someone would verify that before asking the most obvious questions.  Of course the "obvious" question came up and he told my friend that "While I am male in every other way I developed breasts during my teens and they continued to grow as they would on a woman.  My friends and family urged me to have them removed because of the difficulties it would cause me later in life.  While I was comfortable with my body I initially agreed and had intended to have the surgery but I had a change of heart.  God made me this way.....and while most people don't understand it I accept it.  It's created a lot of difficulty in my life but it's important to be true to myself and I am who I am."

  Considering that I was struggling with my own gender conformity at the time and nobody knew about it I found some peace in what he told my friend.  While his gender was never in question to him it was constantly in question by those around him.  He chose a path that was obviously difficult and found peace with himself despite the turmoil around him because of that decision.  I remember thinking that he was one of the bravest people I had ever met. 

 

[HelenW]

...but in all seriousness if I absolutely had to describe what I saw I would (most unfortunately) say "it" because there is no appropriate word (that I know of) to describe...I wouldn't have a clue as what gender to refer to them as or even if the are an androgyne or not.  This isn't a lack of respect. It's a lack of vocabulary.

No need to refer to gender, really - you could tell people that you saw a person with breasts and a penis.  Then they could know what yousaw and you wouldn't have to be inappropriate.

hugs & smiles
helen

[umop ap!sdn]

Honestly? I'd probably be speechless (for once) if I caught anybody skinny-dipping, but in all seriousness if I absolutely had to describe what I saw I would (most unfortunately) say "it" because there is no appropriate word (that I know of) to describe.

...

This isn't a lack of respect. It's a lack of vocabulary.

Well, there's ze (hir), and ey (em, eir). The word "it" etymologically goes back to when there was a distinction between animate and inanimate. Anyway I only know of 2 gender neutral pronouns so I figured I'd mention them.

[cindianna_jones]

Or... you could say nothing.  Is it that interesting?  I suppose to some it is.

Cindi

[Ricki]

hehe...
as always Kimberly went on and on about the subject!
hehe..........
sorry kimberly----hugs your way could not resist!
Ricki

[Ms Bev]

Wow, or maybe whoa...........or even, woe.  I've read this entire thread, and even though it strayed quite a bit from the initial question, I am dismayed to learn that there is a clear predjudice in this enlightened forum, against people who consider themselves transsexual mtf, and still for whatever reason, do not undergo SRS.   I pose a question......did anyone who has undergone SRS refer to themselves as anything other than female, or transsexual??? Gender, my dears, is between MY ears, not yours