What makes you believe?

[Maddie Secutura]

First and foremost, I do not want this becoming a hate thread.  For those of you raised with the faith, do you think you would believe had you not been indoctrinated?  For those of you who have turned to the faith, what brougth you to it?  I'm specifically asking this about Christianity because I was raised Catholic.  I tried to look at my faith from the perspective of someone looking at Greek mythology, because they really did believe in their gods were real, but clearly to you and I they are not. 

So what leads you to choose this religion above all the others?

Please no smart-ass comments from non-believers, this is a serious question.

[Sarah Louise]

I was raised with nothing, we "might" go to church once a year on Easter (to make my grandmother happy).  I didn't believe in anything when I was young, I was happy to think this was it and death (so longed for at the time) was final and absolute.

I "tried" the Catholic church for my wife (she was raised Catholic, mostly in name only, and wanted to get married in the church.

I could not accept some of the things in the Catholic church so stopped going again for several years.

When I was 30 a friend at work started sharing with me about Christianity, I played along for the fun of it.  He gave me a book by Hal Lindsey, There's a New World Coming.  It was one night when I was working alone that I accepted Christ.  I will not bore people with the details.

I continue to trust Christ with my life and salvation, for now and thru eternity.

[Del]

I came from a family that was predominately heathen.
The Lord came into my life one day and made himself very real.
As Sarah said I won't go into details either.
That faith has grown to where Christ means more to me than anything.
It did not come in any given church. I received it while at home.

[Lisbeth]

Despite the behavior of most "Christians," I came to follow Jesus because he always accepted people for who they are. A truly important book for my spiritual development was How to Be a Christian Without Being Religious by Fritz Ridenour. I always followed the belief that grace and forgiveness are all that matter. So I never felt condemned by god for being trans.

[RabbitsOfTheWorldUnite]

I believe that I am a goddess. And I am here to serve.
It is important to believe in yourself because that is all you have, whether you're a pauper or royalty.

[Maddie Secutura]

I suppose in a way I've accepted Christ in my life not so much as a savior but as a tour guide, reaL or not.  The bible does have some good instructions and I do the book a lot of props for developing my morality.  I've been given countless opportunities to have him speak to me but I've never come away satisfied that there was really someone there.  Is it accurate to say your belief gives you a sense of fulfullment?

[Melody Maia]

I'll admit I have moments of doubt. This has been a difficult life and my transition has brought a lot of pain. I do have a general idea of the bible as "divinity for dummies." God's word explained in terms that people could understand. Simplistic. I also am not much of a believer in organized religion.

As for whether I would be a believer now if I had not been raised as a Christian, that is impossible to say. I can say though that my life feels like it has been guided. That at times I have been protected and that one special night, when I was feeling very low, I feel that God spoke to me. I actually heard a voice. Twice in fact. It told me that I was on the right path and to not be afraid. So, take that for what you will, but in my moments of doubt, I think about that night and remember that something really did happen to me. Something that I, a rational, highly educated person, cannot explain.

[Cindy]

I was brought up as roman catholic in a christian brothers college.  I always had problems. Now we are talking 40 plus years ago when I was at junior and high school

But I couldn't understand the belief system. I was very unsure of this concept of Faith. I would ask questions in Bible and religious study classes and get no answer. OK they were naive questions, but? Why was the devil cast out from Heaven? It interested me and it may have been provocative, although as the child I was it was not meant to be.  I remember being called stupid and strapped  (corporal punishment). When we got to the bit about the crucifixion I was upset, why were the criminals crucified? Should we help people in prison because god (I had problems distinguishing God and Jesus) saved them.  Another strapping.

My Dad was a wonderful man. A true Christian in every sense of the word. A charitable and noble person who loved humanity and tried at any opportunity to help people. He was a marvellous father figure, I just wasn't a boy. He doted on my sisters and was a loving father to them, but they got a different love to me. I was his son, I failed.

A confused, nervous terrified Cindy was found by her parents at 13 yrs old wearing by older sisters clothes, (who knew BTW). I could see the disappointment run through his face.  I explained in my confused way that I was a girl.  'You have committed a sin, you need to go to confession tomorrow' I gave up religion on the spot, I never went to confession.  I've never quite understood but it was a defining moment. When I was raped it was also a defining moment. Both times I really needed to believe in something to help me out of these incredible events. The only person who was available was I.


Hope this fits into the thread, Maddie if it doesn't tell me and I will delete.

Cindy

[Del]

Cindy,
I don't want to cause a thread drift but your story touched me. Mainly the part about being alone when raped.

To start I wish to say I am sorry about what all has happened to you.

It does not mean you were alone just because you felt alone. The scriptures show us that bad things happened to many people whom the Lord loved. The list of those who were beaten and stoned and such. All whom died believing that this world was not worthy of the glory of the one to come.

I guess if we had a easy life with no pains or bad times it would be easy to believe in Jesus. That doesn't prove a faith or love for him. When people can accept him regardless that is an unconditional love that is rewarded with an eternity of life free of pain, worry and fear. According to scripture we won't even remember this world or anything sinful about it.

I do hope that you will reconsider. Just because people don't use scripture right and the Lord allows some bad to happen it doesn't mean that he doesn't love you. It just may be that the events in your life could manifest an unfeigned love if you reconsider and love him anyway. The kind of love that so many can never have towards him because of their willingness to only love those whom treat them good or tell them what they want to hear.

Take care young lady.

[Maddie Secutura]

So one's faith could be used as a way to give a sense of purpose to suffering.  I have to admit it is a comforting notion to believe there is someone greater watching out for you and despite non intervention, your faith will make it better after this life is over.  When danger is averted we say someone was watching out for us.  And when it wasn't, well you weren't alone but your companion sat idle and let it all happen.  I'm sorry if I sound cynical but it's the first thing that I thought of when I read that is that a companion is supposed to watch your back.  So I guess what I'd like to know is how,to those who believe, this could be a good thing.

[Del]

Maddie,
It is hard to grasp the differences in concept of watching your companion's back. In the natural we try to help and alleviate pain and such.

Many times those whom we help are ungrateful and later turn on us.

According to the scriptures the Lord's ways are not our way and his thoughts not our thoughts. It even says the wisdom of God is foolishness to man.

Anyone can love the Lord or believe if Jesus was some great mystical guru that granted every whim and lust and made sure no evil ever happened to his people. But that wouldn't mean they love him unconditionally. Chances are they would turn on him once in heaven as Satan did.

The word of God even says the suffering of this world are not to be compared unto the glory to be revealed. No pain and no suffering and every memory and every tear shall be wiped away.

The prophets of old are listed as having pretty much as having gone through hell on earth. Abraham's journey is full of heartache and suffering as with Job. David's own child turned on him and Jeremiah was in prison for speaking the word of God. Many that have been loved of the Lord have suffered. It just isn't mentioned much because the heretics that are on television and behind the big ministries know it won't fill auditoriums and their wallets.

Joyce Meyer would not have gotten so rich if she came out on stage and said that a Christian might not ever get rich or have nice clothing but should be content having food and raiment and eternal life. I'll just use her as one example.

For a person to make it to heaven both parties will know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they love him.

[Maddie Secutura]

I find myself not wanting to worship a god who would give us instincts contrary to what we are meant to do.  To tell me to do something the reason for doing I could never understand.  That sounds rather cruel.  It's a given that God's ways are not our own according to the Bible but it seems like telling a dog he can come in out of the rain if he walks on his hind legs.  Sure walking on all fours would be what comes natural but he only get to come in by walking on his hind legs, probably a painful proposition after a while, as well as love his master for making him do it.  At least to me that's how it seems.  It's like we speak different languages then, we and God.  But God wants to love us but expects us but doesn't give us the capacity to really understand what he's saying.  It also doesn't seem like he's making any effort to learn ours.  For we do have to love him to get to heaven for it is His will or His wrath.  I'm just not sure if that's something I want to be a part of.

[Del]

Maddie,
That is where faith comes in. It is also where the Spirit of God comes in. That too is something not taught right as it is the Spirit of God that causes the thoughts and words of the Lord to make sense.
Sort of what I said about the ways and thoughts of God seeming foolish to man.
Hope this helps kiddo.

[Amazon D]

I find myself not wanting to worship a god who would give us instincts contrary to what we are meant to do.  To tell me to do something the reason for doing I could never understand.  That sounds rather cruel.  It's a given that God's ways are not our own according to the Bible but it seems like telling a dog he can come in out of the rain if he walks on his hind legs.  Sure walking on all fours would be what comes natural but he only get to come in by walking on his hind legs, probably a painful proposition after a while, as well as love his master for making him do it.  At least to me that's how it seems.  It's like we speak different languages then, we and God.  But God wants to love us but expects us but doesn't give us the capacity to really understand what he's saying.  It also doesn't seem like he's making any effort to learn ours.  For we do have to love him to get to heaven for it is His will or His wrath.  I'm just not sure if that's something I want to be a part of.

If you think about it life here on earth is but a drop in the bucket of our spiritual existence and well Yahshua says not to worry for all things here on earth because this time is short and if we keep the faith we will live forever above or we will suffer in a purgetory type place for a while until all spirits are brought back but that is suppose to be 10,000 yrs and well i would rather not get what i wanted now than to not get what God has for me above.

In my case i did get some relief from life and the nasty male sex drive i suffered with and so transitioning happened fast for ma and in 9 months from start i was post op. However i then had to suffer what any woman suffered. I now had men letching after me and i hated how i was previous a letch and now i had other men doing the same to me. ironic huh..

Now i live dressing as a FTM and take care of my 88 yr old mother 24/7/365 and work hard for our little farm house with no plumbing and a wood stove to stay warm that has to be filled many times every night and when she passes i will give it away as God wants me to do because for me its not about what i want except for a little relief from hell on earth at times.. but if i go after the now i will suffer a life in limbo for yrs i rather not..

This is my life if it speaks to you then so be it..

[Maddie Secutura]

I was taught or rather I was indoctrinated into the faith.  A critical examination made me realize that yes it does seem rather foolish and contradictory.  I've never had any heavy religious experience, I've never heard a voice from the heavens or seen the angels.  You'd think after eighteen years there would have been at least one.  I'm not asking for a reason to convert, I'm just asking what makes you believe.  If you had some sort of experience that's great.  If it's so you cam live your life as a better person, that's fine also.  As for myself, I find that I wish to do good categorically, that is for it's own sake.  Were I to have some alterior motive for my actions such as eternal life then I would think it to be cheapened in a way.  If there is a god, and that god is just, I ought to have eternal life based on the merits of my life.  And if there is no god, then I will be gone but will live on in those who remember me.  Yes I stole that from Marcus Aurelius but it really spoke to me. 

I find a lack of belief to be the essence of free will.  I do not have the constant threat of wrath driving my decisions.  I hardly call that free at all.  But when you shed that and keep a moral path anyway, to do no harm to your fellow man, to keep a tolerant heart and not judge others for their decisions, that is a good life.  I do think some of my morality came from being taught the bible but now my actions are my own.

[Del]

Maddie,
  I think that the judgment seat of Christ will be very interesting as well as joyful and fearful. I believe from the scriptures that many that thought they were saved won't be and many that the mainstream thought was going to hell will be saved.
  It was the ones that prophesied and did works in Jesus' parable that were told to depart and the ones that said when did we visit you and such that were told to enter in.
  Paul also wrote that when the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law these having not the law are a law unto themselves. So, maybe what you say about your moral convictions and being taught the Bible are true.
  It is faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God that matters.
  Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. If we hope for eternal life and see Jesus as the Son and express image of God who died for our sins we shall be saved.
  The thing about seeing evidence is that having evidence to see is not faith but seeing evidence after believing is still having faith and God honoring it. Everything I have seen was after I believed. Hopefully even though you do not claim to believe the merits of your life are what is called the fruit of the Spirit and comes forth from a true heart.
  I don't believe to escape wrath. I believe because the goodness of God (Holy Ghost) led me to believe by opening my eyes. Once I beheld the Lord in the scriptures and knew he was real I repented as led by the Spirit and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
  I didn't believe to escape wrath but because I loved the Lord as soon as I saw he is real and still do to this day.
  The entire work of God in my life was led of the Spirit.
  It leaves no room for anyone to boast.
  I hope this answers the original question young lady.
  Take care.

[SarahM777]

Maddie,
  I think that the judgment seat of Christ will be very interesting as well as joyful and fearful. I believe from the scriptures that many that thought they were saved won't be and many that the mainstream thought was going to hell will be saved.
  It was the ones that prophesied and did works in Jesus' parable that were told to depart and the ones that said when did we visit you and such that were told to enter in.
  Paul also wrote that when the Gentiles which have not the law do by nature the things contained in the law these having not the law are a law unto themselves. So, maybe what you say about your moral convictions and being taught the Bible are true.
  It is faith in Jesus Christ the Son of God that matters.
  Faith is the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things not seen. If we hope for eternal life and see Jesus as the Son and express image of God who died for our sins we shall be saved.
  The thing about seeing evidence is that having evidence to see is not faith but seeing evidence after believing is still having faith and God honoring it. Everything I have seen was after I believed. Hopefully even though you do not claim to believe the merits of your life are what is called the fruit of the Spirit and comes forth from a true heart.
  I don't believe to escape wrath. I believe because the goodness of God (Holy Ghost) led me to believe by opening my eyes. Once I beheld the Lord in the scriptures and knew he was real I repented as led by the Spirit and received the baptism of the Holy Ghost.
  I didn't believe to escape wrath but because I loved the Lord as soon as I saw he is real and still do to this day.
  The entire work of God in my life was led of the Spirit.
  It leaves no room for anyone to boast.
  I hope this answers the original question young lady.
  Take care.

Del,

I agree with you so much. I keep having that one time when Jesus was talking about those who where doing good things in His name. There are 2 things that are often missed about that. The first is that Jesus did not reprimand them for what they did.  He sent them away for a different reason as He is quoted as saying "Depart from me for I Never Knew You"

Which for me begs the question if it is not in the doing of the good works then is it not in coming to know Him. It seems to me that what they were doing was out of duty and not out of love.
If that is the case then what should the focus be? I believe that it is the one thing that is truly lacking in the organized church. Shouldn't the focus be in how do i get to know Jesus and how to become more like Him? Is this not where the "meat" is? It seems to me that as we get to know Him more and learn to love Him more that our desires will change that we want to be more like Him.

And isn't that where it becomes real , when He can take broken down and hurting people and make their lives into something new?

[SarahM777]

I do apologize off on a bit of a tangent.

I was blessed in that i had a coworker who was the real deal. Jesus was so alive in her life. She had a peace and joy that i had never seen before and i just longed to have that. Since then over and over i have seen lives changed (Even many that many would say were hopeless cases).

I have seen where He took this broken down shell of a human being and make something of me. I have no other explanation than that it was through Jesus alone.

[Del]

Sarah said:
Which for me begs the question if it is not in the doing of the good works then is it not in coming to know Him. It seems to me that what they were doing was out of duty and not out of love.
If that is the case then what should the focus be? I believe that it is the one thing that is truly lacking in the organized church. Shouldn't the focus be in how do i get to know Jesus and how to become more like Him? Is this not where the "meat" is? It seems to me that as we get to know Him more and learn to love Him more that our desires will change that we want to be more like Him.

And isn't that where it becomes real , when He can take broken down and hurting people and make their lives into something new?

I agree with you . It is about knowing him and wanting to be more like him. Not just wanting forgiveness of sins out of fear or serving out of duty. The Lord even said when you have that which you have been commanded say We are unprofitable servants. We have done that which was our duty to do.  But he also said cast the unprofitable servant into outer darkness where there is wailing and gnashing of teeth.
Many claim to be a Christian but for the wrong reason and those he may never know.

[SarahM777]

I may be wrong but i do believe that there is one thing that is a major factor. I believe that it is in the love of God Himself that makes the difference. Which begs the question why does it make the difference? I believe it is in the motivation and also the major difference that love itself makes. Duty or reward or any other reason can not ever make someone WANT to be with that person. Loves desire wants to please the one i love and i desire to be with the one i love.