Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Greetings all,

So, how do you define male-ness and female-ness?

I see a lot of people saying, for example, that they just want to "get rid of their male-ness" or, perhaps, that they "have always felt like a man in a women's body".  I'm curious though that these concepts of male/masculine/man and female/feminine/woman are never particularly well defined.  The assumption is that everyone already knows these common meanings and that the male-ness that one person might want to "get rid of" is the same kind of male-ness that someone else feels is "trapped within their female form".

This boundary point between the genders is interesting for me. There is a lot science which seems to indicate pretty clearly that there is no evidence at all for a female or male brain, with nearly all behavioural differences being ascribed to differential social / familial expectations and upbringing.  (eg Delusions of Gender, Cordelia Fine, http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1848312202)

On the other hand, I also read many reports of the profound psychological and behavioural changes experienced by those undertaking hormone therapy and SRS. (eg Conundrum, Jan Morris, http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0571209467)

I know many women who are aggressive, physical and have difficulties expressing their thoughts and feeling.  These are qualities often associated with "Men", yet can be displayed by any female without it being a "gender problem". I also know many men who are sensitive, creative, will talk for hours non-stop and are terribly nurturing of colleagues, friends, significant others and children.  These are qualities often associated with "Women" yet men can easily display these behaviours without any concerns of effeminacy.

There seems to be such variance in the behavioural realm that I wonder, then, if it might be useful to detach individual behaviours from any kind of gender specific labelling. If anyone, man or woman, can be aggressive or nurturing without claims of gender inappropriateness, then perhaps it's no longer helpful to think of these qualities as essentially masculine or feminine. 

There are, of course, some behaviours that ARE well policed by society and a lot of these revolve around public presentation of the self.  In this group I include presentational choices such as clothes, hair, voice and make-up/accessories. Get any one of these "wrong" or "mixed up" and you will probably receive a raised eyebrow at the very least. Which is a shame because I had some fabulous skirts.  It goes without saying that the normative display of hetero-sexuality is also well policed.

So, is there anything else that you feel is quintessentially feminine or masculine? Qualities or behaviours that simply cannot be displayed by the other gender without censure by society?  Qualities or behaviours that you personally are trying to diminish or increase?

By asking these questions I am not by any means advocating or privileging the male-female binary view. I totally accept that, for some, such thinking is very limiting.  However, if you feel you are transitioning "from" somewhere "to" somewhere else, or simply wanting to express an inner part of yourself that has not seen the light of day, I'd be interested in how you define the place you have come from and your destination.

For the record, my point of view is London based.  I'd be really interested in international differences you have noticed. For example, presenting as a man with an earring in London is utterly inconsequential (unless you are trying to get a junior job in a bank).  However, wearing an earring in some Latin or Arabic countries was like wearing a flashing sign saying "please hassle me".

Regards to you all

Kerala

P.S. I noticed that the Susan's wiki has lots of definitions, but nothing about Masculine and Feminine!
PPS: I have seen the recent post on The Transgender Brain - WPATH conference report and am digesting...

Femininity and masculinity to me are ideals. They're multifaceted concepts rather than something that can be quantified or even concretely defined.

Values associated with femininity:
* Cooperation
* Nurture
* Connection
* Caring
* Understanding
* Sensitivity
* Support
* Beauty
* Flavor
* Fragrance
* Flexibility
* Decoration

Values associated with masculinity:
* Strength
* Power
* Protection
* Construction
* Durability
* Steadfastness
* Stoicism
* Confidence
* Self control
* Productivity
* Usefulness

Dear Kerala,

Several things we need to keep in mind when discussing this topic:
a) first we have to separate the gender roles, which are mostly a cultural construction or attribute from those behaviors who derived by gender physiology (nature), e.g. those effects caused directly the estrogen and testosterone;
b) second we have to consider the anatomical determinants of maleness and femaleness that are so central to our GID =e.g. breast, vagina, facial hair),
c) third, our congruence between body and brain is an innate biologically driven phenomena not subject to manipulation as far at the brain is concerned;
d) fourth, we must keep in mind that there is no such a thing as a perfect female or male brain, every human is a mixture of female and male attributes, it does not matter whether this attributes are hard-wired (nature) or acquired (natured) attributes, and
d) finally, that we (our brain) are not static, we change and evolve....

Peky

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 07:24:05 AMSo, how do you define male-ness and female-ness?

For me, I define it as whatever it means to the person. Ambiguous, I know, but that's the way I believe people are. I am my own man same as every other man is their own man and same as every person of any gender is their own person of any gender. Does that make sense?
I don't know about other people, but if I were to say I want to get rid of my "femaleness," I would mean I want to get rid of the parts of the mask that are left. I copied behaviours from girls when I was younger and some of them are now habit even though they make me uncomfortable. Not necessarily because they're considered "feminine," but because they are not me and were a part of a fake persona I had during a painful time of my life.
As for always feeling like a man in a woman's body, not everyone feels that way, but I do. It is very physical for me. My body looks and feels wrong and I feel totally disconnected from it at best and disturbed by it at worse. It has nothing to do with society. If I was completely alone on a desert island, I would still be upset by how typically female my body is. (By which, of course, I mean boobs, skin texture, facial structure, hips and curves, etc.)

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 07:24:05 AMThis boundary point between the genders is interesting for me. There is a lot science which seems to indicate pretty clearly that there is no evidence at all for a female or male brain, with nearly all behavioural differences being ascribed to differential social / familial expectations and upbringing.

Actually, there is plenty of evidence that there are structural differences between male and female brains. By plenty of evidence, I mean you could dissect a brain and see it.
(Although I should point out that biology is not necessarily black and white. For some reason, people like to think it is though.)
However, it is true that there is no scientific evidence of gender roles which are something completely different and are completely ridiculous. Please don't confuse the two.

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 07:24:05 AMOn the other hand, I also read many reports of the profound psychological and behavioural changes experienced by those undertaking hormone therapy and SRS.

That's because our gender identities are based on the structures of our brains (according to studies done so far) and not on societal roles. At least mine is. Some people say differently, but I honestly can't understand them. (I don't say this to be mean. I just mean it's too far from my own experiences for me to understand. Does that make sense?)

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 07:24:05 AMThere seems to be such variance in the behavioural realm that I wonder, then, if it might be useful to detach individual behaviours from any kind of gender specific labelling. If anyone, man or woman, can be aggressive or nurturing without claims of gender inappropriateness, then perhaps it's no longer helpful to think of these qualities as essentially masculine or feminine.

I agree with this 200% and think it was never useful to think of these qualities as "masculine" or "feminine." I also find it annoying when people insist that I have to be either/or. Like, even when they know I hate gender roles, they tell me "it's ok to be a feminine man." Yes, it is ok, but that completely dismisses a huge part of my personality because I am not either/or neither am I in one spot in between. There's also this idea that being more "feminine" makes someone less "masculine" and vice versa and that's completely ridiculous. They're all arbitrary traits. Of course people are going to mix and match. Sorry for the rant. I wish people would stop pretending they exist (including the people who claim to "subvert them"... by pretending they exist). If they stopped pretending, they would stop perpetuating their existence.

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 07:24:05 AMWhich is a shame because I had some fabulous skirts.

Skirts are so comfy, they're like wearing nothing at all. One of the good things about being a metalhead is that men in skirts are not uncommon.

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 07:24:05 AMSo, is there anything else that you feel is quintessentially feminine or masculine?

Identifying as female is feminine and identifying as male is masculine. That's about where it stops biologically as far as I know.

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 07:24:05 AMQualities or behaviours that simply cannot be displayed by the other gender without censure by society?

Personally, I've noticed that jumping all over the "feminine and masculine spectrum" (which I don't believe in) like a ping pong ball tends to confuse people.

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 07:24:05 AMQualities or behaviours that you personally are trying to diminish or increase?

There are certain behaviours that I incorporated into my mask that became habit that make me uncomfortable due to the fact that they're fake and the reason I incorporated them.

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 07:24:05 AMHowever, if you feel you are transitioning "from" somewhere "to" somewhere else, or simply wanting to express an inner part of yourself that has not seen the light of day, I'd be interested in how you define the place you have come from and your destination.

I define my destination as finally looking like myself or, at least, getting as close as I possibly can. I guess if I were to see myself as coming from somewhere, it would be from a very dark place behind a mask that I lost myself behind and I never want to go back. I am currently at a place where I am true to myself, but don't look like myself yet.


Disclaimer: These are all based on myself, my experiences, and are my opinions. Other people are different as are all people.

Hmmmm.... I don't know what science would suggest that there are no physical differences between male and female brains.  I think the science is pretty clearly opposite of that. 

As far as the social differences, I don't know.  I encounter a lot of transmen who seem to express a lot of social/behavior qualities that make me think "my god that person acts like a woman."  And I encounter a lot of transwomen who express a lot of social/behavioral qualities that make me think "my god that person acts like a man."  And interacting with transwomen and being expected by many of them to be "one of them" often does pose many of the same impossibilities that trying to interact with men as a (supposed) man did for me.  It just wasn't possible.  But I've never found a good way of explaining why that was so.

I often have trans* people (and cis-people too, for that matter) tell me that I send off such a "strong signal," or give off a "vibe," or "come across as" a woman much more clearly, strongly, and unambiguously than most trans* people.  So I ask them what they mean by that.  And invariably they can't really give an answer except to repeat the vague statement about a "strong signal," or "vibe," or "coming across as."  I've been trying to figure out what that actually means for a long time . . . But it continues to elude me.  And so far no one has managed to express what it actually is. 

Slightly OT complaint:  I do sometimes wish I didn't feel like everyone else's (including trans* people's) laboratory or teaching tool for developing an understanding of gender.  I get a little tired of having people start out statements about trans* issues by pointing at me and saying "well, take someone like <my name> here . . . ."  I wonder if others have similar irritations or whether this is just my personal aversion for being pointed at.

Quote from: peky on March 01, 2014, 09:19:13 AM
Dear Kerala,

Several things we need to keep in mind when discussing this topic:
a) first we have to separate the gender roles, which are mostly a cultural construction or attribute from those behaviors who derived by gender physiology (nature), e.g. those effects caused directly the estrogen and testosterone;
b) second we have to consider the anatomical determinants of maleness and femaleness that are so central to our GID =e.g. breast, vagina, facial hair),
c) third, our congruence between body and brain is an innate biologically driven phenomena not subject to manipulation as far at the brain is concerned;
d) fourth, we must keep in mind that there is no such a thing as a perfect female or male brain, every human is a mixture of female and male attributes, it does not matter whether this attributes are hard-wired (nature) or acquired (natured) attributes, and
d) finally, that we (our brain) are not static, we change and evolve....

Although peky makes some good points, I would be wary of inferring that they are universally true or certain.  For example:  gender roles are probably influenced by a combination of social issues and biology.  Anatomical issues are not central to many people's gender identity issues, including GID.  And if (c) is attempting to explain the biological basis of trans*ness, then it is certainly a hypothesis, but it is hardly something that has been proven.  Etc.

From where I sit there isn't really a maleness or a femaleness in the sense that there are distinctly or uniquely male or female attributes.  All folk have access to the full range of attributes - the fact that they don't choose to develop, integrate and utilise these attributes speaks to their individual choice based on their situation, role models and sense of possibility.

Of course the individual may believe that their choices are constrained by convention, expectation, socio economic status, physique, cultural heritage etc but this is a belief and the only substance that it possesses is that which the individual or it's community attributes to it.  In short for me behavior, roles, heros etc are social constructs and the choices made reflects their decisions and  it is their performance and their reality.

From the above you might conclude that I am firmly in the nurture/socialised camp but I am not.  I have moved from a life beset by intense gender dysphoria and sense of dislocation  to one where I feel empowered, centred and at peace courtesy of HRT.  From an absolute obsession with cross dressing and transitioning to one where I am closer to a mid point, a balancing point, an emotional equilibrium courtesy of HRT leads me to conclude that the brain is gendered that it needs the appropriate hormones for peace of mind and the possibility of an authentic, self authored life.  With that possibility I have the opportunity to select the role and presentation that works best for me rather than be forced to accept a role defined and selected by others.

If my presentation and behaviours are seen by some as male or female then frankly that is their spin and their paradigm with all of the constraints that this involves.

My best friend and I were discussing this topic the other day. I've spent my whole life trying to understand masculinity, so that I could fake it... So, I was humored when he says to me "Y'know. Becoming a woman is the most masculine thing you've ever done. It takes balls to cut off your balls."

I wanna get that last part on a T shirt.

Quote from: peky on March 01, 2014, 09:19:13 AM
Dear Kerala,

Several things we need to keep in mind when discussing this topic:
a) first we have to separate the gender roles, which are mostly a cultural construction or attribute from those behaviors who derived by gender physiology (nature), e.g. those effects caused directly the estrogen and testosterone;
b) second we have to consider the anatomical determinants of maleness and femaleness that are so central to our GID =e.g. breast, vagina, facial hair),
c) third, our congruence between body and brain is an innate biologically driven phenomena not subject to manipulation as far at the brain is concerned;
d) fourth, we must keep in mind that there is no such a thing as a perfect female or male brain, every human is a mixture of female and male attributes, it does not matter whether this attributes are hard-wired (nature) or acquired (natured) attributes, and
d) finally, that we (our brain) are not static, we change and evolve....

Peky

Dear Kerala.

What I wrote above are not my opinions or beliefs but rather a succinct statement from what we (the scientists) know at this point.

of course you can always chose to believe what ever you want, even the mussing of lawyers and wannabe politicians

Wow, everyone, thank you so much for responding so fully.  Let me try and respond:

Quote from: suzifrommd on March 01, 2014, 07:36:48 AM
Values associated with femininity:
* Cooperation
* Nurture
* Connection
* Caring
* Understanding
* Sensitivity
* Support
* Beauty
* Flavor
* Fragrance
* Flexibility
* Decoration

Values associated with masculinity:
* Strength
* Power
* Protection
* Construction
* Durability
* Steadfastness
* Stoicism
* Confidence
* Self control
* Productivity
* Usefulness

That a great list of positive qualities that anyone would be proud to have at their disposal.  As you do, I can't help but see them as being ascribed "in general" to women and men separately but I think that is just cultural stereotypes coming out.  They could quite easily describe either a man OR woman, so I feel I have duped myself.  Aaagh, these things are very hard to de-program.

Quote from: peky on March 01, 2014, 09:19:13 AM
a) first we have to separate the gender roles, which are mostly a cultural construction or attribute from those behaviors who derived by gender physiology (nature), e.g. those effects caused directly the estrogen and testosterone;
b) second we have to consider the anatomical determinants of maleness and femaleness that are so central to our GID =e.g. breast, vagina, facial hair),
c) third, our congruence between body and brain is an innate biologically driven phenomena not subject to manipulation as far at the brain is concerned;
d) fourth, we must keep in mind that there is no such a thing as a perfect female or male brain, every human is a mixture of female and male attributes, it does not matter whether this attributes are hard-wired (nature) or acquired (natured) attributes, and
d) finally, that we (our brain) are not static, we change and evolve....
Peky

I can separate cultural roles and biology, but firmly believe that everything affects everything else.  Environment affects my behaviour, which affects my hormones, which affects my sense of self, which affects my sense of the world around me and in turns affects behaviour and creates the culture, environment, role models and expectations for everyone else. 

Your point "d" is a great one, I do agree that all of these factors are all changing in real time.  Nothing is static, everything is always in flux, from brain chemistry to culture and the impact of history itself.  It's a true whirlwind.

Quote from: Edge on March 01, 2014, 09:27:08 AM
...if I were to say I want to get rid of my "femaleness," I would mean I want to get rid of the parts of the mask that are left. I copied behaviours from girls when I was younger and some of them are now habit even though they make me uncomfortable. Not necessarily because they're considered "feminine," but because they are not me and were a part of a fake persona I had during a painful time of my life.

This is a good point.  I can think of lots of behaviours that I have "picked up" at various times because it was expeditious to do so at that time and in that situation. As you say, it can be curiously difficult to let them go again.  This is something I am dealing with a lot right now.

Quote from: Edge on March 01, 2014, 09:27:08 AM
As for always feeling like a man in a woman's body, not everyone feels that way, but I do. It is very physical for me. My body looks and feels wrong and I feel totally disconnected from it at best and disturbed by it at worse. It has nothing to do with society. If I was completely alone on a desert island, I would still be upset by how typically female my body is. (By which, of course, I mean boobs, skin texture, facial structure, hips and curves, etc.)

I hear you.  I try not to notice what my body is doing too much as it can be frankly just too depressing.  I have one tiny mirror in the house and that's it. 

Quote from: Edge on March 01, 2014, 09:27:08 AM
Actually, there is plenty of evidence that there are structural differences between male and female brains. By plenty of evidence, I mean you could dissect a brain and see it.

That's because our gender identities are based on the structures of our brains (according to studies done so far) and not on societal roles. At least mine is. Some people say differently, but I honestly can't understand them. (I don't say this to be mean. I just mean it's too far from my own experiences for me to understand. Does that make sense?)

I will keep researching this issue.  Sometimes it's difficult to know which comes first, "feedback from the world" causing differences in brain structure or brain chemistry altering our behaviour and outlook on the world.  It's probably both. At the same time.

Quote from: Edge on March 01, 2014, 09:27:08 AM
Skirts are so comfy, they're like wearing nothing at all. One of the good things about being a metalhead is that men in skirts are not uncommon.

And there's so much variety. I had a great zebra skin mini once that was simply to die for.  One of the downsides to living in London compared to, say, India is that men in skirts in public can be a problem for people.  Unless you have fantastic legs in which case everything seems to be forgiven.  I think that is generally the case in almost any situation though, so perhaps I should just work on my legs more.

Quote from: Edge on March 01, 2014, 09:27:08 AM
Personally, I've noticed that jumping all over the "feminine and masculine spectrum" (which I don't believe in) like a ping pong ball tends to confuse people.

Yes, I guess I am presenting a more stable outlook to the world while working on some more subtle inner changes.

Quote from: Edge on March 01, 2014, 09:27:08 AM
I define my destination as finally looking like myself or, at least, getting as close as I possibly can. I guess if I were to see myself as coming from somewhere, it would be from a very dark place behind a mask that I lost myself behind and I never want to go back. I am currently at a place where I am true to myself, but don't look like myself yet.

That is really nicely put.  I hadn't experienced such need to "look like myself".  I guess the body I carry round does most of what I ask of it, what it actually looks like hadn't been of such importance (until you mentioned it, of course).

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 01, 2014, 09:33:20 AM
I often have trans* people (and cis-people too, for that matter) tell me that I send off such a "strong signal," or give off a "vibe," or "come across as" a woman much more clearly, strongly, and unambiguously than most trans* people.  So I ask them what they mean by that.  And invariably they can't really give an answer except to repeat the vague statement about a "strong signal," or "vibe," or "coming across as."  I've been trying to figure out what that actually means for a long time . . . But it continues to elude me.  And so far no one has managed to express what it actually is. 

Yes, I know transwomen who have struggled to shake off some of the subtleties of male behaviour.  They may have perfected the voice and the look and the hair, but the content of what they talk about was still uncannily male, for example discussing the specifications of recording equipment or listing engine performance statistics.  I don't know any women who have ever talked to me about that kind of thing. 

And drinking pints.  Lots of girls do drink pints though, so maybe it was just the WAY they were drinking them that served as unconscious cues to a more "manly" way of doing things.  These new micro-behaviours take a lifetime of observation to re-learn.  And eating a massive plate of food, well it's just so un-lady-like! 

Quote from: Aisla on March 01, 2014, 01:09:03 PM
From the above you might conclude that I am firmly in the nurture/socialised camp but I am not.  I have moved from a life beset by intense gender dysphoria and sense of dislocation  to one where I feel empowered, centred and at peace courtesy of HRT.  From an absolute obsession with cross dressing and transitioning to one where I am closer to a mid point, a balancing point, an emotional equilibrium courtesy of HRT leads me to conclude that the brain is gendered that it needs the appropriate hormones for peace of mind and the possibility of an authentic, self authored life.  With that possibility I have the opportunity to select the role and presentation that works best for me rather than be forced to accept a role defined and selected by others.

Thank you for sharing that, I am not sure where I am at yet with HRT, is that a route I feel would provide me some balance? I baulk at taking headache tablets or even caffeine.  Taking HRT would change that outlook for sure!  Your insight is invaluable and very much appreciated.

Quote from: missadventure on March 01, 2014, 02:11:26 PM
"Becoming a woman is the most masculine thing you've ever done. It takes balls to cut off your balls."
I wanna get that last part on a T shirt.

Me too.

Quote from: peky on March 01, 2014, 04:00:54 PM
c) third, our congruence between body and brain is an innate biologically driven phenomena not subject to manipulation as far at the brain is concerned

Having re-read your point "c" again, I am not sure I understand it fully.  Are you saying that the Brain-Body connection is not open to outside influence?  Or that, together, the Brain and Body create an immutable "whole" that needs (demands?) a sense of integration to feel OK?

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 05:34:55 PMI will keep researching this issue.  Sometimes it's difficult to know which comes first, "feedback from the world" causing differences in brain structure or brain chemistry altering our behaviour and outlook on the world.  It's probably both. At the same time.

From what I've read as well as what my bio psych professor taught me, our brain structure starts developing in the womb. However, my bio psych professor also made it clear that there isn't as much of a difference when it comes to "masculine" and "feminine" traits as people think.

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 05:34:55 PMYes, I guess I am presenting a more stable outlook to the world while working on some more subtle inner changes.

Eh... It's actually quite subtle up until the point where people try to start labelling me as either/or. Then they get confused.

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 05:34:55 PM
Yes, I know transwomen who have struggled to shake off some of the subtleties of male behaviour.  They may have perfected the voice and the look and the hair, but the content of what they talk about was still uncannily male, for example discussing the specifications of recording equipment or listing engine performance statistics.  I don't know any women who have ever talked to me about that kind of thing. 

And drinking pints.  Lots of girls do drink pints though, so maybe it was just the WAY they were drinking them that served as unconscious cues to a more "manly" way of doing things.  These new micro-behaviours take a lifetime of observation to re-learn.  And eating a massive plate of food, well it's just so un-lady-like! 

This is a pretty good example of what I'm talking about.  What exactly is male content?  A ciswoman can sit down and talk about engine specs or recording equipment.  But while she's doing it, will people say she's acting like a guy, coming across as a guy, or seems like a man?  Probably not.  And, at least in the case of recording equipment, I'm not sure it would really be all that unusual for a woman vs. a man.  Women regularly eat big plates with lots of food.  That's by no means a guy thing. 

Whatever the difference in "vibes," "signals," and ways people "come across" is a whole lot more subtle than people talking about the wrong topic or eating too much food.  And, I think, it's both more fundamental and--frankly--more real than the stereotypes we are talking about.

There are differences in the social signals that men and women send off.  But many of the real ones are so subtle that they are hard to even talk about or even grasp.

Here's a very coarse, crude and unsubtle example of a signal like what I am getting at:
Men don't usually talk with their hands all that much.  Ciswomen do.  So do some ethnicities.  Go to Italy, for example, and you will see both men and women gesturing quite dramatically with their hands.  But yet if you talk to a hypothetical average ciswoman in the United States and a male recent Italian immigrant in the United States, the way that each of them talks with their hands will be different.  They both talk with their hands, but they both do it differently.  And of course this is highly variable based on culture, ethnicity, individual personality, how tired the person is, the persons mood at the particular time, and so on.  But yet--as I was recently reminded by a transguy acquaintance who recently put this in my mind--a transman can grow a beard, have his voice drop, pass perfectly as a man, and yet have people read femininity in him by the way he talks with his hands.  And typically that mixed signal (obviously male person talking with his hands in a blatantly feminine way) will be read as a sign that he is gay. 

So, what is the difference in how men and women talk with their hands that sends such a clear, perceptible, and easily understood signal of masculinity or femininity despite a thousand different variables that affect it?  And what are the other, even more subtle, subtle signals of masculinity or femininity that men and women send out?  This is what I am trying to get at. 

In the trans* community, we seem to give an awful lot of time to stereotypes like who is allowed to talk about sports or eat a particular meal.  Frankly, I think a lot of that is pretty superficial and of limited validity.  It does have some.  I've been with trans* women at women's up events where I see them just unable to have a conversation with the other women in the room because they have no common interests.  I feel absolutely AWFUL about it because they look miserable, uncomfortable, and I can't figure out any way to help bring them in.

But the type of thing that I'm talking about is the sort of thing that sends a signal that a person is a woman or a man even when they are not being stereotypical.  If Shakespeare is right that all the world's a stage, then what are subtleties of behavior that make the gender signals match up no matter what men or women are doing at the time?  Or to make it a lot more personal, why can I go to a chess club--not a typical feminine interest--be one of the best chess players in the room, talk trash with the guys, and yet there is zero doubt from any of the other players, spectators, or anyone else that I am 100% a woman?

Whatever is going on there is what I'm trying to express.  I don't understand it.  But it's a lot more than stereotyping.  It's something very subtle, but very powerful, that it cannot entirely put my finger on.

Kia Ora

I'm finding the topic quite interesting, however it would seem that much of the general discussion relating to "trans-women" in this thread is coming from a "heteronormative" perspective...

But I could be wrong....

Just thought you would like to know ::)

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Anatta on March 01, 2014, 07:52:51 PM
Kia Ora

I'm finding the topic quite interesting, however it would seem that much of the general discussion relating to "trans-women" in this thread is coming from a "heteronormative" perspective...

But I could be wrong....

Just thought you would like to know ::)

Metta Zenda :)

Good point.

Quote from: Anatta on March 01, 2014, 07:52:51 PM
Kia Ora

I'm finding the topic quite interesting, however it would seem that much of the general discussion relating to "trans-women" in this thread is coming from a "heteronormative" perspective...

But I could be wrong....

Just thought you would like to know ::)

Metta Zenda :)

Well, Sis,

enlighten us with the "Homonormative" perspective then

Jus askin!

Quote from: peky on March 01, 2014, 10:01:15 PM
Well, Sis,

enlighten us with the "Homonormative" perspective then

Jus askin!

Kia Ora Peky,

It would take a "Homonormative" person to do this...

Just saying !

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Anatta on March 01, 2014, 07:52:51 PM
Kia Ora

I'm finding the topic quite interesting, however it would seem that much of the general discussion relating to "trans-women" in this thread is coming from a "heteronormative" perspective...

But I could be wrong....

Just thought you would like to know ::)

Metta Zenda :)

let me see if I can get you to elaborate in a different way.

Are you saying that CIS heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than CIS homosexual individuals? OR

Are you saying that TRANS heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than TRANS homosexual individuals? OR

Are you saying that heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than homosexual individuals, regardless of their gender identity?

What does sexual orientation have to do with maleness and femaleness?

Quote from: Edge on March 02, 2014, 10:50:06 AM
What does sexual orientation have to do with maleness and femaleness?

I am wondering the same; I guess is up to Annatta she brought it up!

Quote from: Edge on March 02, 2014, 10:50:06 AM
What does sexual orientation have to do with maleness and femaleness?

I am also wandering that myself.

Annatta brought it up!

I am curious to see her mindful answer

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 01, 2014, 06:40:55 PM
So, what is the difference in how men and women talk with their hands that sends such a clear, perceptible, and easily understood signal of masculinity or femininity despite a thousand different variables that affect it?  And what are the other, even more subtle, subtle signals of masculinity or femininity that men and women send out?  This is what I am trying to get at. 

I think there are multiple points of references here, from overall posture, taking up of "space", scale of gestures, leaning in or out of the conversation, ways of standing, where do you put your hands when you're not saying anything, amount of eye-contact, amount of "animation" in the conversation, etc etc.  None of these are the sole preserve of either men or women, of course anyone can behave in any way they choose.  However, I would probably assign a gender to someone, albeit maybe unconsciously and even if I was specifically trying not to, simply because it is habitual to do so. 

Evolutionary psychologists would probably say that defining gender as a sign for biological sex is important so I can decide if the person I am speaking with is either:

• A same-sex threat
• A same-sex non-threat
• An other-sex mating opportunity
• An other-sex non-mating opportunity

It may be felt that the above list rather simplifies the issue...

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 01, 2014, 06:40:55 PM
I've been with trans* women at women's up events where I see them just unable to have a conversation with the other women in the room because they have no common interests.  I feel absolutely AWFUL about it because they look miserable, uncomfortable, and I can't figure out any way to help bring them in.

I think that would be hard with any group of people.  Just because I am a trans-woman doesn't mean I will have anything in common with any other trans-woman, apart from our trans-journeys which might be totally different anyway.  I am into Bach keyboard suites, power-lifting and contemporary dance.  How about you?  Finding common conversational ground is a real art form.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 01, 2014, 06:40:55 PM
...why can I go to a chess club--not a typical feminine interest--be one of the best chess players in the room, talk trash with the guys, and yet there is zero doubt from any of the other players, spectators, or anyone else that I am 100% a woman?

There are a million things that seem to be required for passing and they all have to be nailed sufficiently for there to be no "doubts" at all.

Quote from: Anatta on March 01, 2014, 07:52:51 PM
I'm finding the topic quite interesting, however it would seem that much of the general discussion relating to "trans-women" in this thread is coming from a "heteronormative" perspective...

I guess, being a new-ish thread, there are but few data points and the picture is therefore still quite grainy. Feel free to jump in from any viewpoint you wish.

Quote from: peky on March 02, 2014, 10:09:14 AM
Are you saying that CIS heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than CIS homosexual individuals? OR
Are you saying that TRANS heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than TRANS homosexual individuals? OR
Are you saying that heterosexuals individuals have a different perspective on maleness or femaleness than homosexual individuals, regardless of their gender identity?

Nicely untangled!   

Kia Ora,

Effeminate 'gay' males and butch 'lesbian' females,=male-ness - female-ness...

Do effeminate gay males and butch lesbian females "male-ness" and "female-ness" appear/come across the same as their hetero counterparts ?

A lot of the conversation has been related to behaviour and mannerisms, and how one speaks etc...


Just saying....

Metta Zenda :)

Quote from: Anatta on March 02, 2014, 12:43:25 PM
Kia Ora,

Effeminate 'gay' males and butch 'lesbian' females,=male-ness - female-ness...

Do effeminate gay males and butch lesbian females "male-ness" and "female-ness" appear/come across the same as their hetero counterparts ?

A lot of the conversation has been related to behaviour and mannerisms, and how one speaks etc...


Just saying....

Metta Zenda :)

If I did not know better, I would have think that you are in Colorado developing some new math under the influence of some sattiva

Quote from: Anatta on March 02, 2014, 12:43:25 PM
Do effeminate gay males and butch lesbian females "male-ness" and "female-ness" appear/come across the same as their hetero counterparts?

You mean do effeminate gay males and butch lesbian females come across the same as effeminate hetero males and butch hetero females? Yeah, I'd say so. The only difference is in who they're attracted to.
But then, I'm against the idea of labelling people as "effeminate" and "butch" to begin with. The whole either/or thing pisses me off.

Quote from: peky on March 02, 2014, 12:50:29 PM
If I did not know better, I would have think that you are in Colorado developing some new math under the influence of some sattiva

Kia Ora Pesty,

Been there smoked that... ;) ;D

However you might be right perhaps I have no idea so please 'enlighten' me....What is male-ness what is female-ness? does it relate to ones speech? behaviour? mannerisms? physical appearance? etc etc....

BTW My apologises to Edge for the use of words/terms he finds offensive...perhaps there are newer more PC terms that I'm not aware of, if so please let me know thanks....

Metta Zenda :) 

Quote from: Anatta on March 02, 2014, 01:13:23 PM
BTW My apologises to Edge for the use of words/terms he finds offensive...perhaps there are newer more PC terms that I'm not aware of, if so please let me know thanks....

It's not that. It's the putting people into strict categories thing as well as the societal pressure to fit into those categories. There's no room for people to be who they are.

Quote from: Anatta on March 02, 2014, 12:43:25 PM
Kia Ora,

Effeminate 'gay' males and butch 'lesbian' females,=male-ness - female-ness...

Do effeminate gay males and butch lesbian females "male-ness" and "female-ness" appear/come across the same as their hetero counterparts ?

A lot of the conversation has been related to behaviour and mannerisms, and how one speaks etc...

Well, ummmm . . .

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 01, 2014, 06:40:55 PM
Men don't usually talk with their hands all that much.  Ciswomen do.  So do some ethnicities.  Go to Italy, for example, and you will see both men and women gesturing quite dramatically with their hands.  But yet if you talk to a hypothetical average ciswoman in the United States and a male recent Italian immigrant in the United States, the way that each of them talks with their hands will be different.  They both talk with their hands, but they both do it differently.  And of course this is highly variable based on culture, ethnicity, individual personality, how tired the person is, the persons mood at the particular time, and so on.  But yet--as I was recently reminded by a transguy acquaintance who recently put this in my mind--a transman can grow a beard, have his voice drop, pass perfectly as a man, and yet have people read femininity in him by the way he talks with his hands.  And typically that mixed signal (obviously male person talking with his hands in a blatantly feminine way) will be read as a sign that he is gay. 

The point being that a man giving off a "feminine" signal is typically read as gay.  The reverse--a woman giving off masculine signals--is usually read as a lesbian. 

But even that is over simplifying it.  What distinguishes between someone being read as lesbian and someone being read as something just being wrong with them or even as "hmmm, I think that may be a guy."  Again, I don't know what that is. 

Quote from: kerala on March 02, 2014, 11:19:42 AM
I think there are multiple points of references here, from overall posture, taking up of "space", scale of gestures, leaning in or out of the conversation, ways of standing, where do you put your hands when you're not saying anything, amount of eye-contact, amount of "animation" in the conversation, etc etc.  None of these are the sole preserve of either men or women, of course anyone can behave in any way they choose.  However, I would probably assign a gender to someone, albeit maybe unconsciously and even if I was specifically trying not to, simply because it is habitual to do so. 

This makes sense to me, at least.  But what are those signals?

Quote from: kerala on March 02, 2014, 11:19:42 AM
I am into Bach keyboard suites, power-lifting and contemporary dance.  How about you?  Finding common conversational ground is a real art form.

If I picked three they would probably be classical music, vegetable & herb gardening, and current events on the national/international scene. 

But may I take a shot at the issue raised earlier about how content may affect perceived gender?  It seems to me that if your interest is power-lifting then the number of ciswomen who will be interested in talking about that is probably pretty limited.  The ciswomen who do have that interest will probably have have other interests that do match up well with most other women. 

Transwomen, on the other hand, may not have that.  Hence the reason I've been to some events that were mainly ciswomen and see the transwomen end up standing around alone or talking to the handful of husbands.  Because the things they had to talk about were limited to things that relatively few women share an interest in. 

Quote from: kerala on March 02, 2014, 11:19:42 AMb
There are a million things that seem to be required for passing and they all have to be nailed sufficiently for there to be no "doubts" at all.

*Groan*. I generally avoid the passing threads.  In all honestly, passing is one of the things I'm pretty clueless about.  I know very little about how to do it or why it works for some and not others. 

I hope we are talking about something that runs a little deeper than that.  But I do see your point. 

These are all polar opposites of a wide spectrum but for me;
male and female is purely the biological aspect,
man and woman is a socially engineered concept,
psychological masculinity and femininity are interpersonal perspectives, which I believe play a significant role in distinguishing between both animate and inanimate bodies and how we identify with things retrospectively.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 02, 2014, 04:44:27 PM
It seems to me that if your interest is power-lifting then the number of ciswomen who will be interested in talking about that is probably pretty limited.  The ciswomen who do have that interest will probably have have other interests that do match up well with most other women. 

Transwomen, on the other hand, may not have that.  Hence the reason I've been to some events that were mainly ciswomen and see the transwomen end up standing around alone or talking to the handful of husbands.  Because the things they had to talk about were limited to things that relatively few women share an interest in. 

Is that any different to a cis-male and cis-female trying to find mutual topics of conversation?  I can't see why being trans would make it more difficult than it already is.  (FYI, if we ignore the power-lifting it seems we share 5 topics of interest in common. Not bad going!)

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 02, 2014, 04:44:27 PM
*Groan*. I generally avoid the passing threads.  In all honestly, passing is one of the things I'm pretty clueless about.  I know very little about how to do it or why it works for some and not others. 

I guess what is intriguing is that, despite the inner sense of "rightness" that the trans process hopefully brings, for many it's a personal transformation that is vigilated by the wider community.  I would need to think about this a bit, but, as personal transformations go, it feels quite unique in that respect.  As you say, it remains a mystery.  As Jan Morris says in her book Conundrum (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0571209467 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/0571209467)), the whole trans process caused both her and everyone she met "mutual mystification".  I think is a beautiful way of describing the experience.

Let me veer myself back on topic.  Personally, I don't feel there are any particular "attributes" such as those apparently determined by the Bem inventory which can be usefully polarised into male / female. (For the curious, you can test yourself here: http://garote.bdmonkeys.net/bsri.html (http://garote.bdmonkeys.net/bsri.html)). Amazingly, this test is still used.

All I am left with, apart from physical appearance (average height, muscle mass, fat distribution, hair sheen and skin softness and the implications they themselves have on movement and self-identity) are some nebulous "ways of being" which, it seems, everyone is having difficulty pinning down.  As stated above, I will do some field research into the topic.

I have just watched Transamerica (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0407265/ (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0407265/)), which offers a stunning portrayal of a MtF pre-op (actually played by Felicity Huffman before she became famous on Desperate Housewives).  This performance of a girl playing a guy trying to play a girl is astonishingly well observed and she was rightly nominated for an Oscar.  I unreservedly recommend this beautiful and touching film.

Another week starts

Kerala

Quote from: kerala on March 02, 2014, 08:26:49 PM
Is that any different to a cis-male and cis-female trying to find mutual topics of conversation?  I can't see why being trans would make it more difficult than it already is.  (FYI, if we ignore the power-lifting it seems we share 5 topics of interest in common. Not bad going!)

Five topics is not bad. :)

But yes, I think the situation with trans* people and cis people finding common interests is different.  I tried to explain why it my previous post, but I must not have done a good job, so let me try again:

Everyone has a whole bunch of past experiences, knowledge, and interests.  Those can be at least somewhat gender related.  The powerlifting is one interest that probably skews male fairly strongly.  If you have been a high school football player, then that also probably skews strongly male too.  A detailed knowledge of AD&D rules and variations and whatever else probably also skews male.  Women would be in the minority. Let's follow the football example a bit. 

If you are on the football team then you will meet some other folks who are also on the team and likely become friends with at least some of them.  They will also probably be male because it's mostly men on the team.  They will introduce you to other things that you will become interested.  Those things will likely skew male too.  You will meet others at these events who will be mostly male, who get to be friends, who introduce new interests, and so on.

Have you ever noticed how people tend to mostly socialize with their own gender?  Not exclusively, but mostly.  A party, for example, will often have the guys half of the room and the gals half of the room.  And people's friend circles that they hang out with tend to be majority same gender.  It's pretty surprising to see someone who has 90% opposite sex platonic friends.  I think that the scenario I outlined above, in dramatically over simplified form, is part of why. 

But what this does is it builds up a storehouse of past experience, knowledge, and interests that is heavily influenced by lived gender. 

So let's say that our male football player later turns out to be trans* and transitions to live as a woman.  Now she goes to a women's sorority meeting where they are talking about arts and crafts.  Everyone there is a woman and also has a storehouse of past experience, knowledge, and interests that was influenced by her lived gender.  But it was the opposite of our trans* woman.  So they both have a whole range of topics they could talk about.  But the overlap is a lot smaller because that storehouse was constructed out of opposite gender experiences.  So now our hypothetical transwoman is left with few opportunities to find a match on topics of conversation.  So she ends up failing a lot more than other women. 

I actually saw this scenario unfold at a meeting of a non-academic sorority made up of mostly middle aged women who had a sorority for fun.  Very different from what you'd find at a school.  A group of about five transwomen came.  One of them was able to engage fairly well.  The women in the sorority were very welcoming and could not have given all five a warmer embrace.  But all except that one ended up standing around awkwardly looking at one another, and not really engaging with anyone else.  I honestly did not notice it myself because that meeting involved an art show at the home of one of the members and I live art, so I was pretty engrossed in looking and talking.  But I noticed it when the hostesses husband happened to be in one room of the show and I saw that the transwomen had become kind of awkwardly engaged with him talking about video games.  Again, an interest that skews male, particularly in this generation.  But that guy was the only one she could find to common ground to engage with.  I felt awful because I could not figure out a way to rescue any of them and bring them into the socializing that was happening.  I didn't know how to connect with them well enough to bridge the gap so to speak. :(

Now let's turn out hypothetical football-playing transwoman into a cis girl.  She might still have gotten interested in football.  But most schools do not have girls football teams, so she might have done something like join the cheerleaders to cheer for the football team instead.  But she never would have had that whole chain of events with the football players.  It would have instead been a group of other girls whose interests leaned female, who would have introduced them to other girls whose interests also leaned female, etc. 

That's what I'm trying to get at.  Sorry it's so long. :)

Quote from: kerala on March 02, 2014, 08:26:49 PM
All I am left with, apart from physical appearance (average height, muscle mass, fat distribution, hair sheen and skin softness and the implications they themselves have on movement and self-identity) are some nebulous "ways of being" which, it seems, everyone is having difficulty pinning down.  As stated above, I will do some field research into the topic.

"Ways of being" is a term I've heard.  I don't know what it means either.  :-\  But in addition to differing interests, I suspect my hypothetical transwoman and cis girl above would have developed different ways of talking about the interests they had in common.  And that's a whole other kettle of fish.  But it's the one I, for one, am more interested in figuring out. :)  And there is research into different male and female communication styles. 

The difference I notice between men and women is that, with men, there's always a certain level of competitiveness and jockying for power.  I always feel like I'm being tested to see how well I measure up to some standard or other, even when we're supposedly being friendly and "bonding."  I find it exhausting and alienating, to the point that I've written off all masculinity as some horrible social disease.  As far as I'm concerned, my maleness starts and ends with my anatomy, and I wish I didn't have even that in common with (other) men.  I probably have some of these behaviors myself (since I was, after all, raised male), but I hate myself whenever I recognize any of it in me.

Women don't seem to have this.  They can be competitive, but it's not like it's a 24/7 requirement, something they have to maintain as a condition for continuing to exist, the way it usually is with men.  With women, I always get a vibe of avoiding conflict and trying to keep people from getting mad at them.

My own take on this is that this is because our society sets men and women up as oppressor and oppressee classes.  Men have to be trained to want "power over," so they'll willingly be a cog in a power structure that oppresses.  And women are there so men will have someone to oppress and even the lowest-status man has people who they will always be superior to, no matter what happens.  (Cf.: poor whites vs. blacks in the USA South.)

Women, as the designated oppressees, have an interest in not getting into power struggles (conflicts), since they're ultimately up against the entire male power structure ("patriarchy.")  And if there is a conflict, they're better off losing, since if they win, that power structure will see them as a real threat and do its best to grind them back down.*   And that's how they're raised: I remember watching my mother constantly giving my little sister the message that the most important thing in life was to be cute and charming and placating and non-threatening and hide her intelligence.  She's 51 now, and has a PhD in engineering from Caltech, but she still has that somewhat artificial cute, somewhat ditzy, wouldn't-hurt-a-fly demeanor that she learned from our mother.

* - Look at the attacks and hysterical hatred any women gets who attains some prominence.  Sarah Palin and Hillary Clinton may be political opposites, but there's no difference in the misogynistic attacks they get hit with.

As I was reading other topics, I was actually thinking about the insult thing guys do where they insult one another pretty nastily to show that they are friends or something like that.  I get it that the trash talk thing is kind of fun.  And I can tease them too and I can even talk trash, though not I'm not all that good at it.  But I totally don't get the insult thing.

I've read all of your posts with great interest. I think what's generally overlooked though is that the 'social construct' aspect of femininity and masculinity often does have a biological cause. That many women 'act' more vulnerable is probably a direct consequence of being generally shorter and less muscular then men. Most masculine and feminine characteristics can have a biological cause if you look into it. A lot of behavior is learned of course, but on this forum I read aboutthe effects people experience when on hormones and that too is more an argument for the biology.
I agree with the general trend here; many 'acts' are learned through socialization, though I would say a lot of it is biological.

As for myself; I feel at a very strange place where I can't really understand where I stand. I have desires to have a female body, I am not particularly fond of having a penis, and am not happy with body and facial hair, being tall, etc. I know I'd rather have a female body. I can't understand exactly why that is.
But at the same time my interests are 'male', the way I communicate is more 'male', I am quite stoic. This is partly learned, partly a consequence of hormones?

Reading about these 'passing' issues actually makes me think it migbt be better for me to let my desire just remain a dream. Then there's also the desire to have a girlfriend and I think I'd rather do that as a guy than as a lesbian. I'm pretty clueless at this point.

Apologies for possible grammar/spelling mistakes. I'm using my phone.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 02, 2014, 09:34:44 PM
So let's say that our male football player later turns out to be trans* and transitions to live as a woman.  Now she goes to a women's sorority meeting where they are talking about arts and crafts.  Everyone there is a woman and also has a storehouse of past experience, knowledge, and interests that was influenced by her lived gender.  But it was the opposite of our trans* woman.  So they both have a whole range of topics they could talk about.  But the overlap is a lot smaller because that storehouse was constructed out of opposite gender experiences.  So now our hypothetical transwoman is left with few opportunities to find a match on topics of conversation.  So she ends up failing a lot more than other women. 

Hypothetically that would make sense. However I can neither find anything in common with guys who "talk cars and sports" nor with women who "talk shopping and clothes", if, indeed, those are valid stereotypes.  Both topics leave my stone cold and always have, and I'm not sure that has anything to do with gender identity.  Or maybe it has EVERYTHING to do with it and I just can't see it.

If someone wants to talk about a song or an essay they've written, or a piece of art they have created, or a business idea or a foreign language they are looking at, then I am totally up for that, whether they are cis, trans, gay or straight.

I'll quote here from one of your postings in the "Not a phoney, not a fraud, not acting..." thread:

Quote from: ThePhoenix on February 28, 2014, 09:13:34 PM
I was out for a hike with a female friend and her husband.  She made a comment to me about how she envied my hair because my hair had more of a wavy texture to it whereas here was straight and boring.  I opened my mouth to say the most natural thing that came to mind, which was "oh my gosh, but you have the greatest bangs in the world!  And your hair seems so well behaved!  It looks like it would be so easy to work with and do what it was told!"  As soon as I opened my mouth, I closed it again because I realized that guys don't say things like that.  In fact, I'm not even sure guys normally know what bangs are.  So we walked along with an awkward silence for a while until her husband thankfully came up with a new topic.

I totally hear this.  This constant self surveillance is really very strong and frankly exhausting.  I guess you could have made any response you wanted without risk of too much censure in this instance, but maybe not if the entire football team had been present.  Everything is so context dependent.

Quote from: Feather on March 03, 2014, 04:24:10 AM
I think what's generally overlooked though is that the 'social construct' aspect of femininity and masculinity often does have a biological cause. That many women 'act' more vulnerable is probably a direct consequence of being generally shorter and less muscular then men. ...I read about the effects people experience when on hormones and that too is more an argument for the biology

I totally agree with you, and it's the hormone experience that really started me investigating this area more deeply.  Also that many people relate that it's the fundamental experience of being in the "wrong" body that is utterly dysphoric, outside of navigating the social norms and expectations.

Quote from: ThePhoenix on March 02, 2014, 10:10:57 PM
As I was reading other topics, I was actually thinking about the insult thing guys do where they insult one another pretty nastily to show that they are friends or something like that.  I get it that the trash talk thing is kind of fun.  And I can tease them too and I can even talk trash, though not I'm not all that good at it.  But I totally don't get the insult thing.

I read somewhere recently that the difference between guys and girls is that guys are always mean to each other but don't really mean it, while girls are always nice to each other and don't really mean it either.  Made me smile.

I am totally rubbish at trash talking and just find those environments pretty toxic.  Is there really nothing more interesting to talk about?  Consequently I have few male friends... 

I have noticed, though, that the more masculine I present, the more girls do it to me too.  Is it because they now think I am now so manly, tough and unfeeling that insults don't hurt?  Weird.  Perhaps it's time to put the work-boots back in the cupboard and dig out the lilac shirts again.

I am very picky when it comes to friends. Mean jokes can be fine as long as you know it's not received as an insult. I always notice that quite a lot of men are like that when they don't even know you well. That bothers me. I can accept it from someone I know and respect but not from strangers or people I know in a casual way.
I'm not particularly fond of the general 'act' of masculinity in our culture anyways. It's too much a cavemen culture; macho behavior, improving one's situation at the cost of somebody else, drinking beer, etc. Maybe my issues with masculinity are more cultural than biological. The introvert that practices restraints and manners is generally deemed a lesser creature. Assertiveness, boldness, and rudeness is rewarded. There's a good book about the change in modern society from a Culture of Character to a Culture of Personality. Most men (and women too) are expected to follow the latter.

Quote from: Feather on March 03, 2014, 10:14:39 AM
I am very picky when it comes to friends. Mean jokes can be fine as long as you know it's not received as an insult. I always notice that quite a lot of men are like that when they don't even know you well. That bothers me. I can accept it from someone I know and respect but not from strangers or people I know in a casual way.

I have very few friends but many acquaintances. Maybe I'm just relatively solemn but I have no hate for jokes. I very rarely find any enjoyment in them and often just seem as interesting as someone incoherently mumbling.

Quote
I'm not particularly fond of the general 'act' of masculinity in our culture anyways. It's too much a cavemen culture; macho behavior, improving one's situation at the cost of somebody else, drinking beer, etc. Maybe my issues with masculinity are more cultural than biological. The introvert that practices restraints and manners is generally deemed a lesser creature. Assertiveness, boldness, and rudeness is rewarded. There's a good book about the change in modern society from a Culture of Character to a Culture of Personality. Most men (and women too) are expected to follow the latter.

This speaks my mind, though with differing terms. I find it's strange, these assertive, bold and rude extroverts often seem to justify their malicious behavior with 'the strong survive' concept yet they believe they are more civil then any other animal and sometimes even deny being an animal at all.

i don't know, the socialization thing can get so loaded... people excuse like every little thing about  themselves bc of their socialization, when so many people turn out the exact opposite. Your socialization can probably cause irrational fears and complexes and make you sensitive to certain issues that resonate with your past, but I do not believe at ALL that it actually makes people who they are on the inside. That is just so dismissive and lazy to say imo. :( sorry...

Quote from: kerala on March 01, 2014, 07:24:05 AM
Qualities or behaviours that you personally are trying to diminish or increase?

Yes, but they're mostly internal programming issues. Certain phobias and things such as being consumed with my appearance. I can never get the past the idea that my appearance is so important and that I will be judged mostly on it. I think that is female programming.

As far as behaviors and stuff, I don't think it's much of a problem. No one has ever said I was feminine or thought I was gay as a guy. Though they've assumed this of cis guys around. I think I come off more feminine as a guy and my mother does as well. But like I said, it doesn't seem like something noticeable to other people. But I do kind of think there has been a shift towards more feminine qualities that I actually like.

For instance, I probably value some things on Suzi's list a lot more than the average guy.

QuoteValues associated with femininity:
* Cooperation
* Nurture
* Connection
* Caring
* Understanding
* Sensitivity
* Support
* Beauty
* Flavor
* Fragrance
* Flexibility
* Decoration

Compassion and beauty, for example. I wasn't like that as much as female. Now I seem to appreciate beautiful things more and have found new interests in things like fashion and interior decorating that I never noticed as female. The female me was a lot more manly, aggressive, confident, etc. I believed in myself a lot more back then. And the male me has this horrid hyper-awareness of people's feelings. Even on here. Like before T, I never thought about what I said on here. Now I'm like all worried I'm going to upset someone and careful of people's feelings. Even my mother has commented on this. So, somehow I actually ended up more feminine through transition. I don't like it at all.

As for defining male-ness and female-ness, I don't know. To me, there's a different 'feeling' or aura to male-ness and female-ness independent of masculinity and femininity. A different flavor I guess. Nothing I have words for.

Quote from: FA on March 05, 2014, 10:35:19 AMTo me, there's a different 'feeling' or aura to male-ness and female-ness independent of masculinity and femininity. A different flavor I guess. Nothing I have words for.

This. This pretty much sums it up for me. It's more a feeling I get from people, maybe subconscious cues I'm not aware of, more than anything I could put into a list.

Quote from: FA on March 05, 2014, 10:35:19 AM
As for defining male-ness and female-ness, I don't know. To me, there's a different 'feeling' or aura to male-ness and female-ness independent of masculinity and femininity. A different flavor I guess. Nothing I have words for.

Quote from: Sephirah on March 05, 2014, 07:50:41 PM
This. This pretty much sums it up for me. It's more a feeling I get from people, maybe subconscious cues I'm not aware of, more than anything I could put into a list.

I agree with this.  I just wish I knew what I was agreeing with.  It would be nice to be able to understand that feeling or aura or vibe or whatever it is.  Then we could talk about it a lot more easily.

Well this thread has thoroughly confused me.  I am beginning to totally give up on the male female psyche thing, because for my frame of reference I can't figure anything out.  I get that I now have a preop female body under construction, I get that my body always feels female and for the most part always did from the beginning, I get that I was effeminate from birth.  As a preop trans I don't have the slightest idea what gay or hetero means any more because how does that terminology apply to my preop condition?

I look in the mirror and I seem to see a lesbian presentation now.  My lesbian friends look like me.  No wonder I am so comfortable around them.  And I like that look, it brings a smile to my face every time.  Finally I can look in a mirror without scorning the image that looks back at me.  The woman within is obvious.

Confusing activity with gender... anyone want to take a shot at telling Danika Patrick she isn't feminine?  I race too.... small scale.

I no longer see myself mentally as either one or the other gender.  I think of myself as being a third gender.  Not male, not female either.  Something else, something real, something different.  Transwoman, socially stealth as a male.  And HRT has changed in subtle ways behaviours, thought processes, physical attractions, certainly my body and my reaction to it, and it gave me peace, at last, and the ability to concentrate.

But the male female psyche?  I go into some kind of male performance role when interacting with the world, it was an act I developed to survive middle school and high school without being totally destroyed by those who delighted in identifying me as "fa----t", a derogatory word I hate with a passion, and that I was catcalled with daily, loudly, timed to kill.  Now in society I don't know how to quit that act.  So I act aggressive, tough, self reliant, and my body language changes into "respond to threat mode".

Physical is easy.  I feel a certain way, I physically react a certain way, my sexuality is programmed only one way, and that's all girl and its always been like that, but better now on estrogen than before.  Much better.

I gave up on trying to act anything any more.  I just want to learn to feel and respond without repression or holding my breath tensely all the time.

Clear as mud.  So the adjectives and their associations don't mean that much to me any more.

By the way, I think TransAmerica is brilliant and a must watch.  Some of the content is a little rough but it is quite the window into our worlds, breath taking in some ways.  I keep watching it over and over again.  Just brilliant, professionally, the writing, everything.  A gift to the trans community.

Last word- physical brain stuff?  Endocrine fun?  My endo says normal males respond badly to estrogen it does not agree with their brains, they dont have the estrogen receptors there and affinity for it, which is why they stopped using it on prostate cancers.  I sure as heck have them there.  Interesting, unproven theory.  Normals feel like crap on estrogen and we blossom on it and find what for me is heaven on earth emotionally and psychologically.  And I get manic on testosterone, it does not agree with my mind at all.

I probably made no sense at all.  My concept of typical male is the neanderthal gay hater accross the hall, loud, scary and obnoxious, just waiting for me to slip up.  Like  the guys that psychologically abused me to the point of maiming the woman within that deserved to be nurtured instead.  I don't dislike all males, but normal ones scare me.

Enough out of me, thank you for letting me post my feelings and fundamental confusion on this subject.

I think women almost as a rule are more people-oriented and men are more thing-oriented. This goes beyond a lot of outward masculinity/femininity and even to a major extent extraversion/introversion IMO. You could be a sensitive, sweet, emotional and sociable guy and still be thing-oriented. Actually a lot of guys are really emotional in a thing-oriented way. For example a lot of emotional guys can be pretty narcissistic. They try to fix their emotional problems by being better at things and forget about the value of peope. Girls usually try to feel better thru other people and can ignore the practical/self-destructive  problems of doing that.

For a girl, a thing is usually connected to a person/people who are a higher priority than the thing. But guys can usually process the thing on its own and not be too concerned with how other people relate to it.

Thing-orientedness has its own rules and ethics that it applies to other people and the world. Guys can come off as pretty insensitive to others and even antagonistic if they are not careful. People-orientedness cares mainly for and takes its principals from important people. Girls can be over-compliant and self-diminishing.

Men socialize in a thing-oriented way. That's why to a woman they can sound like they're just being mean to each other. But men are thing oriented so they like satire and hyperbole and can communicate that way. Women take things personally because that's how they say things, as is, to make someone feel a certain way. Men can be lazy with terminology because they are really talking about the thing that's behind it, and women are more literal because they are usually talking about something connected to a person and being misunderstood would make that person feel a way they didn't intend. (Btw that doesn't mean women won't imply things, but... they will imply things only to make someone feel a certain way too.) But, when men actually want to insult someone, they will try to make them look bad at things in some way. Like, a man might insult another man that he's bad in bed. This probably sounds kind of weird to a woman to who sex is probably mainly an experience with and a connection to somebody, not a test. It is a test to a man in a way, as much as an experience, because to some extent, people ARE things to men. Their prowess with women is probably the same type of thing to them as their ability to earn money. Women may be opportunities to them before they are individuals.

And women do things in a people-oriented way. It's not usually that appealing to a woman to delve into and master a skill, to prove her worth, to show the world her genius, to become super powerful and accomplish great things, for its own sake. Men might get frustrated with women seeming to care less about intellectual integrity, or appreciating the complexity or depth of something. They might think women are superficial or vapid, because women usually only want to take a concept as far as it still relates to or is experienced with other people somehow. Yes, even introverted women, who just happen to put more into and take more out of each experience.

Okay lol, you get the picture. And i get that this is a stereotype, nobody is completely thing-oriented or people-oriented. And men and women can do the same or similar things for completely different reasons, experiencing them in completely different ways. That's just my opinion, sorry if none of this made any sense lol. :/

Quote from: sad panda on March 06, 2014, 12:01:54 AM
I think women almost as a rule are more people-oriented and men are more thing-oriented. ...You could be a sensitive, sweet, emotional and sociable guy and still be thing-oriented. Actually a lot of guys are really emotional in a thing-oriented way. ...Guys can come off as pretty insensitive to others and even antagonistic if they are not careful.

This is a very interesting take on gender difference and reminds me of the theory that suggests autism can be considered "extreme male-ness".  Do you think these are innate qualities?  Or more conditioned, learned, inculturated?

I'm reading Whipping Girl by Julia Serano (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1580051545 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1580051545)) at the moment who sides with the idea of culture "enhacing" pre-existing natal qualities.  For my money both nature/nurture constantly impact each other.

Quote from: kerala on March 08, 2014, 03:25:21 AM
This is a very interesting take on gender difference and reminds me of the theory that suggests autism can be considered "extreme male-ness".  Do you think these are innate qualities?  Or more conditioned, learned, inculturated?

I'm reading Whipping Girl by Julia Serano (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1580051545 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/1580051545)) at the moment who sides with the idea of culture "enhacing" pre-existing natal qualities.  For my money both nature/nurture constantly impact each other.

I think a lot of it is innate and a little is learned too for sure. Just to me it seems like there is a part you can't change. You can behave differently but you can't change what comes most naturally to you, you know? If you raise a healthy, normal cis boy as a girl he will almost certainly struggle with that gender role....

I just think it doesn't make sense for much of it to be purely culture's fault. I mean, people created culture in the first place... Pretty much all the things we associate with masculinity/femininity can go right back to the basic biological roles of males and females.. just because the modern world is complex doesn't mean we aren't still pretty simple creatures. Males fight, protect, assert, dominate. Females preen, submit, support and nurture young. It's pretty obvious that most of nature is that way, with no culture to speak of, and it is pretty obvious that our entire culture is vaguely built around that model that already exists in nature.

I mean, people *can* do whatever they want. A girl can do MMA and race cars. A guy can knit and make bead jewelry. That's because humans do everything, even things that shouldn't be natural. I mean humans eat rocks, drink poison, self-mutilate, like, anything they can possibly do. Just bc one person did something doesn't mean it comes natural to them. But MMA and car racing will always be done mostly by men and knitting and beautifying will always be done mostly by women, in any culture anywhere. It IS just my opinion but i'm like 1000% sure it is true. The specific activities may be different but ultimately in every culture, men and women do activities that go right back to or use the skills that their biological sex is built for.

BUT... male and female is a little misleading, because almost all females have some degree of masculinization and males undermasculinization (because female is the default state, feminization doesn't feel like the right word.) so there is that, but yeah, sex mostly is pretty binary anyway.

Quote from: sad panda on March 08, 2014, 05:12:34 AM

I mean, people *can* do whatever they want. A girl can do MMA and race cars. A guy can knit and make bead jewelry. That's because humans do everything, even things that shouldn't be natural. I mean humans eat rocks, drink poison, self-mutilate, like, anything they can possibly do. Just bc one person did something doesn't mean it comes natural to them.

Interesting point. There is also kind of a trend nowadays to celebrate anything traditionally masculine a girl does as 'girl power'. But I'm not sure that it is. It's more that traditionally feminine activities are seen as somehow less valuable. Our culture is masculine and so most of the things we see as worthwhile are traditionally masculine. Disney has also been trending towards this. I mean, on one hand, it's great that tomboys are finally being recognized. But I'd like to see a strong female heroine who isn't engaging in traditionally masculine activities (while of course being stereotypically hot and 'do'able at the same time), but is powerful through her femininity.

All these movies and games with 'kick-ass', ridiculously f_able heroines don't say 'girl power' or equality to me. It just says that turns men on. If it was about girl power, they wouldn't have to be f_able. They would look like a woman more likely to be capable of these feats - not small and slender with just 'lightly toned' limbs and not so f_able. It's just catering to male fantasy.

Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant. ugh, when will FA get off this feminist kick?

Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 08:11:47 AM
Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant. ugh, when will FA get off this feminist kick?

Well, it is International Women's Day. Besides, feminism is common sense. Not as common as I'd like to think though.

Sometimes, I think I'm one of the few people who actually gives a crap about science.

Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 08:11:47 AM
Interesting point. There is also kind of a trend nowadays to celebrate anything traditionally masculine a girl does as 'girl power'. But I'm not sure that it is. It's more that traditionally feminine activities are seen as somehow less valuable. Our culture is masculine and so most of the things we see as worthwhile are traditionally masculine. Disney has also been trending towards this. I mean, on one hand, it's great that tomboys are finally being recognized. But I'd like to see a strong female heroine who isn't engaging in traditionally masculine activities (while of course being stereotypically hot and 'do'able at the same time), but is powerful through her femininity.

All these movies and games with 'kick-ass', ridiculously f_able heroines don't say 'girl power' or equality to me. It just says that turns men on. If it was about girl power, they wouldn't have to be f_able. They would look like a woman more likely to be capable of these feats - not small and slender with just 'lightly toned' limbs and not so f_able. It's just catering to male fantasy.

Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant. ugh, when will FA get off this feminist kick?

I agree so much with this.
In the world of video games you get so many men who are asking for 'powerful female characters' - what they want is just a female character with the mentality of a macho man so they can relate to it themselves.. -_- Or they're really just into dominant women, I don't know. To each their own, but for me there's nothing more beautiful in this world than feminine girls :)

Why can't girl power be about embracing one's softer side? I think it takes a lot of balls to embrace it in today's world!  :)

Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 08:11:47 AM
Interesting point. There is also kind of a trend nowadays to celebrate anything traditionally masculine a girl does as 'girl power'. But I'm not sure that it is. It's more that traditionally feminine activities are seen as somehow less valuable. Our culture is masculine and so most of the things we see as worthwhile are traditionally masculine. Disney has also been trending towards this. I mean, on one hand, it's great that tomboys are finally being recognized. But I'd like to see a strong female heroine who isn't engaging in traditionally masculine activities (while of course being stereotypically hot and 'do'able at the same time), but is powerful through her femininity.

All these movies and games with 'kick-ass', ridiculously f_able heroines don't say 'girl power' or equality to me. It just says that turns men on. If it was about girl power, they wouldn't have to be f_able. They would look like a woman more likely to be capable of these feats - not small and slender with just 'lightly toned' limbs and not so f_able. It's just catering to male fantasy.

Sorry that turned into a bit of a rant. ugh, when will FA get off this feminist kick?

I agree, and I also disagree just a littttle bit :)

I think the honest problem here is one that feminism isn't built to address, which is the fact that men and women are actually different. The common sense and important part of this is, different--NOT unequal. Feminism can't medicate this. Because what happens when women still have all the respect that men appreciate (or can't) and they are unhappy because it turns out that a lot of them still want to be treated like ->-bleeped-<-?

Notice how I didn't say they deserve to be, i said want to be. That's empowering. It can even be a choice that a responsible adult makes because they are equal enough to have exactly what they want. Some people like being treated like ->-bleeped-<- and objectified, some people like being used... It's not wrong, even if it's awkward for a lot of reasons.

A thing that kind of bugs me about a lot of casual feminist sentiments is how against the spirit of feminism it can go on the topic of men. Men can end up pretty objectified as objectifiers, cold machines, like little terminators who chase women relentlessly no matter how many limbs they lose on the way. That is denying men an equality as well. We focus a lot on what Disney princesses do with their life but not really on the princes. Or is it just me that noticed Disney is just as bad, if not worse at writing princes? Not sure if I ever heard anyone say that but come on. All they ever really do is get the girl. What if they had like, feelings, or in some cases, lines? What if they wanted to throw it up and pluck those bold brows for a change? (I don't think we can argue that they aren't conventionally f__kable except when the whole point of their character is that they aren't...) And I mean at least the princesses get their own hair color. So we have equally bad gender role writing but people only ever talk about how it's bad for women. hmm.

And then a weird thing about feminism in that in spite of itself, women actually need feminism to begin with. Ever heard of masculinism? Me neither, I mean maybe it exists but. And I am not going MRA on you here, but i'm trying to point out that men don't have an equivalent to feminism because they don't need it, or at least not enough people believe they do. No, a man speaks for himself, he doesn't need an advocate. Is it really because people will listen to him and not to a woman, or is it also partially because we can tust him to assert his beliefs enough to have them heard? Oh, but women are raised not to assert themselves. Yeah, it can keep going around in circles like that, but eventually we have to ask where this divide came from in the first place and why, and why it naturally resists any amount of effort to change it.

So yeah, feminism is bizarre in a way because in advocating for women it is limiting and controlling what women are.. people who need avocady. People who are not strong enough on an individual level to overcome objectification. People who need someone to depend on to help with their practical affairs. Incidentally, this is what women do, they form groups to figure out issues rather than fight it alone. Because they don't like to fight alone, whereas most men get off on that kind of thing. Being the lone gunman against the world... trust me, disney movies aren't made for adult men's fantasies at all, and probably if disney princesses were ugly and boorish but had strong personalities, women wouldn't be as interested in them.

..And I know, feminism is completely reasonable in light of the issues that women face uniquely. But we don't extend that favor to men. We tell (explicitly or just through neglecting/refusing to give attention their problems) men to figure it out in their own, and maybe at the end of the day that's actually just because we trust and expect them to. :/ And who knows, maybe they wouldn't take advocacy even if you offered it to them, because they're too stubborn to agree on anything.

Y'know, I really believe that most stereotypes carry a little bit of truth somewhere, if sloppily. I'm not necessarily arguing against the reality of the view of men I pointed out above, because anyone who has ever had a mildly feminine appearance probably realizes that a lot of men actually are like little terminators. They can be freaking relentless (and scary) over something as bland as a quick, emotionless hookup, I mean seriously. No matter where or when you live, that is an overwhelmingly male behavior. Even if you were a different species it would be.

Women are doing a lot better now than they used to be in terms of power and respect. But has anything really changed so much? Do women feel more empowered and do they want to? The more we internalize feminism, the more embarrassing it is to be a waif, and old fantasies of going out in the big, scary world and catching a man are being replaced by fantasies of being controlled, subverted and dominated for their own good, bleeding out of society's pores through erotica, I mean Twilight, or like, post secret. A lot of people, at the end of the day, and I am probably including myself in this... have these problems because they don't know who they are without them.

BTW, I don't actually like the part of me that wants to share how I really feel about this issue, who wants to express the perspective of a probably feminine person who was chronically not allowed to be feminine or at least not liked for it, because I know someone will think, "but you're MAAB, you don't know what you're talking about," and I'd go all stockholm syndrome on them and agree. I prefer to agree even when i don't actually agree. I don't like the part of me that is conscious of all this stuff. Most of the time I don't talk about this because in the long run it's more satisfying to agree with the consensus of people who ultimately have just as truly never experienced a male upbringing either. I feel sort of rogue and unfeminine about all of this. Funny how that works. I mean maybe I am unfeminine though. I really never know anymore but figures that I can't stop caring anyway :/

I do think my saving grace is that the bottom line is that men and women are stereotypically different, but only the average person can accurately reflect that so you can't apply stereotypes to individuals, ever. You have to let them be who they are and they need to have access to whatever that means about them. It's hard to help that mainstream media caters to mainstream people and their concerns, but mainstream media wouldn't be mainstream if it didn't. It's just a fact of life. Everything is probably going to work itself out in the long run as we are more comfotable with the full range of gender and even the idea that maybe it is often hncomfortably binary and that that can be okay, that differences don't mean inequality. That's how I feel.

Uh sorry for going way off on a tangent though, I feel kind of ridiculous about it and it's mostly not related to the post I quoted anyway. :S

That's okay hon.

With Disney, I was mostly talking about recent trends with the 'tomboyish but of course thin and pretty' thing going. Like showing a woman can be strong because she's good at archery misses the point (or any of the other movies that rely on this). It's like a heroine exhibiting masculine traits has become shorthand for 'strong and independent woman'. It seems lazy to me. Even though I do agree with trying to take down stereotypes of what boys and girls should do. There is power and strength in being feminine and doing feminine activities. We just don't see it that way in a patriarchal society.

Quote from: FA on March 08, 2014, 02:06:58 PM
That's okay hon.

With Disney, I was mostly talking about recent trends with the 'tomboyish but of course thin and pretty' thing going. Like showing a woman can be strong because she's good at archery misses the point (or any of the other movies that rely on this). It's like a heroine exhibiting masculine traits has become shorthand for 'strong and independent woman'. It seems lazy to me. Even though I do agree with trying to take down stereotypes of what boys and girls should do. There is power and strength in being feminine and doing feminine activities. We just don't see it that way in a patriarchal society.

Uh-huh, I absolutely agree, and that's what I meant about difference not being inequality :) masculine and feminine are equally deserving, equally important and equally real. And if everyone believed that, men and women included, we could probably relax a lot about the whole gender picture. Someday...

I think a major issue with Disney, cartoons in general, and almost all video games is that they are often about action and adventure. It's usually about overcoming monsters and fighting your way through. Within such a setting it is hard to come up with a good feminine role model (besides the obvious damsel in distress or caretaker) that isn't seen as too masculine. Problem is, when it's 'too feminine' it is also considered a result of patriarchy..  :(

From a Princess' perspective, her men have to be rich and young and handsome.  Even the Beast, ugly as he was, lived in a castle with talking cutlery. I'm sure Beauty wouldn't have bothered so much if he'd lived in a swamp.   Aladdin was poor... but then super wealthy (and also had a pet Jinni). Cinderella forsakes Buttons, a servant who has loved her for years, for a Prince she has met only once in a forest. Sleeping Beauty was awoken with a Prince's kiss. A kiss from a lowly woodsman (or, god forbid, a dwarf) would obviously never have done. Rapunzel is "saved" by a prince.  What if she had really just wanted to get on with her spinning, or maybe writing an essay instead of being bothered by a urgent Romance.  When I see real single women today say they are waiting to meet their Prince Charming I find that deeply troubling. Could be a long wait.

Flip that around and every guy doesn't need a Princess, but to get a look in girls must be pretty and young. It helps if you can sing and dance of course.  Where are the Disney movies when two forty year old slightly overweight divorcees with a couple of kids each just stumble into an OK relationship at work because they seem to get on most of the time and both watch the same TV programmes?

And then there's the whole Homo-normative thing going on.........  I can't wait to see the Disney movie where Pocahontas saves John Smith and then reveals that she's actually not going to change her name to Rebecca (true story), but to Allan.  John Smith reveals that situational homosexuality from being onboard ship for so long has caused him to "re-interpret" his previous sexual preferences and they settle down as couple of star-crossed old dudes in corduroys (OK, that's a stereotype, they could be wearing jeans).

Quote from: kerala on March 09, 2014, 03:49:03 PM

And then there's the whole Homo-normative thing going on.........  I can't wait to see the Disney movie where Pocahontas saves John Smith and then reveals that she's actually not going to change her name to Rebecca (true story), but to Allan.  John Smith reveals that situational homosexuality from being onboard ship for so long has caused him to "re-interpret" his previous sexual preferences and they settle down as couple of star-crossed old dudes in corduroys (OK, that's a stereotype, they could be wearing jeans).

I love it!  :laugh:

Gender is a canvas. We live in a society/culture that only gives us 2 colors: black and white. I want to paint the canvas with a whole spectrum of colors, along with black and white. Maybe I prefer certain colors much more than other colors, but in the end I use them all in some way to paint a beautiful picture.

I love Lady Gaga and her music videos because I love the way she experiments with so many things in an artistic way. Also I love the sexy dances :D  :icon_dance:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=niqrrmev4mA