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 I have gender dysphoria and am considering SRS/bottom surgery.  The twist is that I am considering this without fully transitioning. I am wondering if anyone has any experience with this.  I figure that MTF transitioning is like  the many shades of the rainbow and there must be many shades of transition.

Many thanks,
Clara

Clara
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So you want to remain with a male appearance outwards but downward be operated with a vagina? I don't get it, explain.

Quote from: Claraaa on January 31, 2015, 10:29:10 PM
I have gender dysphoria and am considering SRS/bottom surgery.  The twist is that I am considering this without fully transitioning. I am wondering if anyone has any experience with this.  I figure that MTF transitioning is like  the many shades of the rainbow and there must be many shades of transition.

Many thanks,
Clara

It certainly sounds like something you will need to thoroughly discuss with a therapist but basically I would consider it just another shade of transition. Whatever makes you happy. Just make sure it's what you need to be happy. There are lots of XX people  presenting as male who choose to keep their vaginas so why couldn't there be an XY person presenting as male/neuter with a vagina?  (I hope I haven't misunderstood how you wish to transition.)

That doesn't shock me at all. I personnally don't care about living as a man as long as I have HRT/SRS. I think it has to do with how much you care about gender or not. You can have a feminine sexual identity without a neat feminine gender identity. (that's my case)

Either way talking about it with your therapist is always a good idea.

We've had many threads about this. My opinion is that the cisgender people who make policy for how to medically deal with us have trouble separating body dysphoria from social dysphoria, but they are very different. You CAN have body dysphoria without social dysphoria, just as you can have social dysphoria without body dysphoria. IMO this should be allowed and supported, but I think a lot of the therapeutic establishment disagrees with me.

I agree that body dysphoria and social dysphoria are separate things, and what you want could just be another shade of transition. But currently I don't think that path is allowed by medical professionals. You'll probably find that accessing SRS requires social transition and HRT. Could you elaborate on how you wish to transition?

I agree it should be an option.
I read a while ago about a cisgender man who went through several psychologists and got the approval to get castrated because he did not want or need the genitalia and he had no intention of transitioning to a woman as he was very comfortable living as a male. For trans* people I think a stage in transition could be bottom surgery without the real life time requirement but I think for most medical professionals there is a ethical issue around performing irreversible surgery when a person has not lived full time and might at some point regret it and be unable to go back.

I don't get it... but who am I to judge? I think you're going to have a really hard time (and a really long time) as far as getting an approval letter from psychiatrist. Good luck 

 :police:

OK people I do not want rude posts.

Express an opinion, but be sensitive.

We all walk our own path.

In the past I would have definately wanted full body and genital transition. However, given my current circumstances, it would be nice to have at least: (1) lack of body and facial hair; (2) modest breasts "C"; (3) removal of the male things with a proper relocation; (4) a more feminine pitch and tone to my voice; (5) enough of a feminine appearance so that I would be gendered female even when dressed in unisex type clothing.

This is sort of how I feel...only I would intend to transition slowly after surgery.

I dont imagine it would be very easy to find a surgeon willing to do this without transition, but nevertheless, good luck on your journey :)

Edit* - my experience has been mostly research...ive heard of a few people who faked their way through transitioning only to present as male after surgery. Definitely not recommending this...just saying Ive heard of it

Thank you all for your kind replies. I am indeed working with a great therapist.  She is the one that suggested this as a possibility for me.  I am also (not sure if one, other or both) considering a low dose HRT therapy to help with the dysphoria.

My life is setup such that I need to honor what my needs are and I have other factors such as family (wife and kids), job, etc to consider.  I don't feel like I need to present full time as a woman in order to align my gender and that is something I am struggling to fully understand and embrace.

Thanks much,
Clara

I'll strongly advise you to take HRT. It's probably necessary for SRS and you'll feel better with a more feminine body as a whole. If you have a body dysphoria but not a gender dysphoria, living as a man with a woman body would be the best idea.

SRS without HRT doesn't really feel right in my opinion. I can be wrong, but IMO the two things are linked.

If you're worried about breast, well it's a valid point but breasts can easily be concieled.

What you want may be completely reasonable for you but, as others note, the gatekeepers and WPATH standards that most surgery clinics employ are not often flexible.  I do know of people who have successfully found what they needed as private clinics and $ find a way to meet.

Lots for you to consider and yes, plenty of colors And shades of grey around here. :D

Have you heard of the Eunuch Archive? There are many more people there who desire castration, penectomy, and a small subset that want SRS without actually transitioning. Check it out.

Also, to those who think that SRS is an absolute holy grail only touchable by someone who wants the whole feminizing package, have you ever heard of the mangina man? He's someone who did have SRS, and yet retained a completely male body otherwise. (NSFW if you ever look him up. And if his existence or his name offends anyone, I'm sorry, but I feel like it's wrong to not acknowledge that there are some people in the world who want surgery but do not want to fully transition.)

Whether this desire is actually right or not, unlike in trans women, we don't have a study for it to confirm it or deny it, so I can't say. But I can confirm that it is a desire that some people have.

I agree ; however, I may be wrong but I was under the impression that it was not the case here. Sorry if I'm mistaken.

I will rephrase : if you have body disphoria and feel the need of a feminine body WITHOUT gender changes, then you might have trouble finding happiness with only a SRS. (plus you'll have a harder time on various matters)

Of course if you feel like you need only SRS but no other changes, well you should go for what suits you best. (but be aware that this can cause various hormone problems like osteoporosis - since you will no longer have testosterones due to the absence of testes)

Quote from: Claraaa on January 31, 2015, 10:29:10 PM
I have gender dysphoria and am considering SRS/bottom surgery.  The twist is that I am considering this without fully transitioning. I am wondering if anyone has any experience with this.  I figure that MTF transitioning is like  the many shades of the rainbow and there must be many shades of transition.

Many thanks,
Clara

I actually totally get it.  My dysphoria triggers come mostly from looking at my parts.  I do plan to transition fully but I don't find the need to be ultra "femme" when I do and I think I would be content just having the right parts on my body. 

I'm not that far removed from your position of just wanting to present as a man but with your correct anatomy you know you should have.  There are plenty of ciswomen out there who, for the most part, present a rather masculine persona. 

If it's dysphoria that's driving your needs, take care of it.  Do what you need to and go from there.  But don't be surprised if you decide to be more holistic with it after you start HRT; it changes perspectives on a lot of things, from what I hear.

It's very dangerous to do SRS, orchie without taking either hormones estrogens or Testosterone. If the body doesn't get either hormone you might end up with Osteoporosis where it comes a point your bones can become as brittle as a chalk.

Quote from: Claraaa on January 31, 2015, 10:29:10 PM
I have gender dysphoria and am considering SRS/bottom surgery.  The twist is that I am considering this without fully transitioning. I am wondering if anyone has any experience with this.  I figure that MTF transitioning is like  the many shades of the rainbow and there must be many shades of transition.

Many thanks,
Clara

FYI.

You DO NOT have gender dysphoria if you do not want to alter your gender expression.  A more accurate way to describe your situation would be maybe genital dysphoria.

That said, I am one like many, who thinks: to each their own., I don't even remotely understand why you would want to do what you are suggesting, but then, do I have to understand why? Of course not! But. When it comes to medicine, GRS is considered a medical necessity, it's a necessity coming from being transgender. To a medical professional. You risk your reasons to seem like a "fantasy" or something "kinky". Which although respectable, I'm assuming wouldn't qualify it as a medical necessity. But a medical alteration for simple want/fun. Remember, this isn't necessarily my view, but a neutral view of what might go through a medical professional's mind if presented with such case. Sadly, or not sadly, there has to be backup to everything. I would like to say like others that transition is a wonderland of exploration and finding yourself, it can be. But when you are requiring of a medical professional to permanently alter a core area of your body without a heavy reason, and when they could be legally liable if you were to "want to make money" by suing afterwards. These people are gonna thread incredibly carefully with you. if only you could simply sign away your rights to a legal come back, and you were willing to pay big amounts of money. Then I'm sure you could find a way. But otherwise...

Quote from: calicarly on February 03, 2015, 06:00:20 AM
You DO NOT have gender dysphoria if you do not want to alter your gender expression.  A more accurate way to describe your situation would be maybe genital dysphoria.

Um ... Isn't this a form of gender dysphoria?

Maybe, but it comes to depend on choice of terminology. As I have frequently seen it defined, it'd be sex dysphoria (or genital, as calicarly suggested, which strikes me as interchangeable).

That's from the school of terminology where there's sexuality (who you're attracted to), gender identity (how you identify internally), gender expression (how you present yourself socially), and biological sex (which parts you have).

I'm not sure how this would fit in terms of clinical / DSM terminology, but I think it's exactly the case where distinguishing gender identity from biological sex is important. That's probably also the rationale that would be used to deny surgery in such a case. I am not saying I agree with it, but I think the argument would be that GRS is intended to bring biological sex in line with gender identity, the latter of which is a well established condition. I suspect there's little documentation of sex/genital dysphoria as "real," which may be why doctors would be hesitant to treat it. (Scare quotes, of course, because I am not decidedly not questioning the reality of the condition, but a doc might.)

I am aware of others who have had SRS but not socially transitioned. Each that I know has, however, moved towards a more androgynous mode of presentation, almost "genderless", if you will.

But each person has to find what makes him or her comfortable. :)

Getting your letters to this may take a bit more time, as you work through issues with your therapist.

Question, do you plan to do HRT? Facial hair removal? The more mixed or ambiguous our outward gender presentation, the more I've found that therapists want to explore those issues and that takes time. One person who did this took about 6 years to convince their therapist of the need for SRS without full social transition.

I sort of skimmed over the responses, but what I haven't read is that don't most surgeons require you have been living full time for at least a year? I know with Dr. Brassard, a requirement is proof of full time and HRT

I will speak from personal experience that you absolutely do NOT have to socially transition to be on HRT and after a year, qualify and be accepted for SRS with multiple US-based highly regarded surgeons.

It's certainly atypical for sure...remember, the WPATH guidelines are NOT standards or requirements - they are guidelines.

I had no problem calling as high as I needed: my V.P. of HR, finding a great therapist, gynecologist, and Ph. D. They all understand the big picture with me.  Heck, I have even visited face to face with the president of WPATH about my case to be absolutely 100% certain I didn't encounter things that would prevent me from getting the job done. 


Oh, I even got it covered with insurance. I did all this while living as authenticity as I need to - which by some peoples idea, isn't very female.

Hi WendyAnn,

I'm just curious, but at the end of it all was all that effort really required? My understanding is that in the USA you just need the psych letter.

Quote from: Muffinheart on February 14, 2015, 09:54:03 AM
I sort of skimmed over the responses, but what I haven't read is that don't most surgeons require you have been living full time for at least a year? I know with Dr. Brassard, a requirement is proof of full time and HRT

I can't comment on Brassard in particular, but I believe there's scope for special cases. There's must be as there's a non-zero number of people actually doing it. Since I like Suporn and he is very clear about his requirements, I'll point out what he says - its 12 months, except when its 6 months, except ...

http://www.supornclinic.com/Restricted/Scheduling/protocol.aspx

I think that what you are looking for might be difficult to obtain.  Although I do not practice in this area of the law, to me the medical professionals that would approve this might be setting themselves up for a malpractice suit.  People are so litigious nowadays I could not imagine a therapist or physician sticking their neck out that far and not strictly going by the WPATH criteria.  They could also be putting their licenses in jeopardy as well.....which is their means to make a living.  If you did find a therapist or surgeon to allow you to move forward I am certain they would go well beyond the normal to show the needed level of proof that you would mentally competent to make such a decision that would alter your body in this manner.  That may in itself take awhile.  I know that they have changed the WPATH criteria in the past five years....but that does not mean that therapists and surgeons will say yes.  I think you are more likely being told that there are other ways, outside of SRS, to address your gender dysphoria.  Professionals also know that their malpractice insurance can be voided if they were deemed to be wantonly careless in their actions.  They do not want to go there.  That is just my opinion for what it is worth.   In any event, best of luck in achieving your desires!

Quote from: AnonyMs on November 13, 2015, 12:37:00 AM
Hi WendyAnn,

I'm just curious, but at the end of it all was all that effort really required? My understanding is that in the USA you just need the psych letter.

All the effort I listed was required - if I didn't want to pay cash, so yes. ;)
It's like wining a $30,000 lottery - post tax.

Quote from: Karen5519 on November 13, 2015, 03:08:33 PM
I think that what you are looking for might be difficult to obtain. 

I could not imagine a therapist or physician sticking their neck out that far and not strictly going by the WPATH criteria. 

I know that they have changed the WPATH criteria in the past five years....but that does not mean that therapists and surgeons will say yes. 

Yes, difficult for sure, but it is definitely possible, my story is proof.

As I mentioned, the WPATH standards of care - are guidelines, and one of the items that is very clear is that it's up to the individual therapist/Ph. D. to determine what needs done or can be avoided - specific to each case with regard to supporting initiating HRT or GRS.

In my case, I have a therapist, a Ph. D., a gynecologist, a surgeon, my HR department, my insurance carrier (who had a Trans surgical exclusion in place), and my management - all on the same page.. Now that, took some doing.  Yes, I have met several surgeons in person and they were all supportive when they learned of my story.

That said, I live as openly as I am able to - based on the local rural bigoted and close-minded environment where I live. I don't dress in your face over the top female, and also haven't changed my name, but then again, that isn't always a necessity.

All of these items were documented and addressed in my collection of 7 letters.

What a trip and I haven't even gone for the surgery yet.

Wendy

I met someone quite a few years ago who presented as male but was post-op.  I was going to be in another city and had contacted a local support group who would be meeting while I was there.  Since I was still on the staff of Southern Comfort Conference at the time, I was asked to give a presentation at the meeting about SCC and what all was offered at the conference.  I met the person at that support group and understood quite a bit of money and lawyers were involved in getting the surgery, IIRC, in Thailand.  This particular person was then going to transition slowly due to their business. 

Quote from: WendyAnn.1969 on November 23, 2015, 09:58:18 PM
All the effort I listed was required - if I didn't want to pay cash, so yes. ;)
It's like wining a $30,000 lottery - post tax.

Any idea what you'd have needed if you'd paid cash?

If you don't mind me asking, why are you talking about it? Because there's more than just you and its almost like no one is willing to speak up.

Quote from: AnonyMs on November 24, 2015, 11:35:14 AM
Any idea what you'd have needed if you'd paid cash?

If you don't mind me asking, why are you talking about it? Because there's more than just you and its almost like no one is willing to speak up.

Of course. $29,999.00 short of anesthesiologist and labs.. Plus food and a place to stay post discharge for 10-17 days in SFO area. Oh, then the cash for all the bribes.....just kidding, there were none. I'm as authentic as they come and there was no need for that type of nonsense.

I posted and tell a bit of my story because the discussion was focused on the (apparent) extremely low quantity of people that may seek GRS without full social transition. If no one speaks up - then the story won't ever be told and wild speculation will run wild.  I have never understood why the two events have ever been tied together. How you live and what is or isn't in your pants are completely different items.

While atypical I'm not unique. I'm just an older lower intensity MtF Trans female who also happens to be .... also a lesbian.  I knew I wasn't gay - as I wasn't attracted to men.  I have a natal male body and was attracted to females but things were never right.  Ultimately, it was quite a mental jump to figure out through deduction that I am not only a Trans female but also a lesbian. That was at the very end of a very long list.

Thanks for speaking up. I have to admit I wouldn't in your situation.

Quote from: WendyAnn.1969 on November 24, 2015, 08:35:36 PM
Of course. $29,999.00 short of anesthesiologist and labs.. Plus food and a place to stay post discharge for 10-17 days in SFO area. Oh, then the cash for all the bribes.....just kidding, there were none. I'm as authentic as they come and there was no need for that type of nonsense.

What about the amount of paperwork, if you pay cash? 7 Letters seems excessive, and given its Thailand I'd expect you to really only need 1 letter (psych), possibly 2. They are a very accepting society and I don't think they have the cultural hangup's we experience in the west.

Quote from: AnonyMs on November 25, 2015, 12:18:09 AM
Thanks for speaking up. I have to admit I wouldn't in your situation.

What about the amount of paperwork, if you pay cash? 7 Letters seems excessive, and given its Thailand I'd expect you to really only need 1 letter (psych), possibly 2. They are a very accepting society and I don't think they have the cultural hangup's we experience in the west.

First, I am unsure you are addressing me, but I will assume you are since you quoted part of my reply.

Why would I not speak up? There is absolutely nothing wrong with how I live or what I am doing and no wrong way to be Trans.  I don't understand why others wouldn't be more open in this thread to share their story.

My procedure is covered by insurance tied to my HR department overriding the surgical exclusion primarily because I provided enough evidence to open their eyes to not only the Trans situation but also my specific medical needs.  It do believe this took 7 letters to be successful on the first try.  So, no, I'm NOT paying cash.

Umm, I'm also not going to Thailand.. I am confused.

Wendy

We do what we do when we do it.  There is no one way to transition.

Quote from: WendyAnn.1969 on November 26, 2015, 10:27:07 PM
First, I am unsure you are addressing me, but I will assume you are since you quoted part of my reply.

Why would I not speak up? There is absolutely nothing wrong with how I live or what I am doing and no wrong way to be Trans.  I don't understand why others wouldn't be more open in this thread to share their story.

My procedure is covered by insurance tied to my HR department overriding the surgical exclusion primarily because I provided enough evidence to open their eyes to not only the Trans situation but also my specific medical needs.  It do believe this took 7 letters to be successful on the first try.  So, no, I'm NOT paying cash.

Umm, I'm also not going to Thailand.. I am confused.

Wendy

Sorry I wasn't overly clear. I was addressing you, and I was confused about the Thailand bit. The question about the 7 letters and cash was really to ask "if you paid cash how many letters do you need?".

I agree with you entirely about what you're doing, and I would do it myself. I'm not sure how to explain why I'd not talk about it without getting moderated, so I won't.

Thanks

Thanks for your posts Wendy Ann.

I'm in a similar position in the UK. I cannot socially transition due to work and family and was hopeful that I could at least have an orchie. If I could have full GRS then I'd be much happier.

I'm on the waiting list for an appointment at my local gender clinic and hopefully only have a few months to wait. When I have my appointment I'll post back.

Julie xx

If you're going to take bottom surgery without HRT, you may get very dangerous and risky consequences. You can get osteoporosis, a skeleton disease and you can die.
Your body would not produce any testosterone post-op and without taking HRT the body wouldn't work. The body needs hormones to live. But it's up to you how you want to transistion and what you want to do to your own body.

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on November 30, 2015, 01:09:01 PM
If you're going to take bottom surgery without HRT, you may get very dangerous and risky consequences. You can get osteoporosis, a skeleton disease and you can die.
Your body would not produce any testosterone post-op and without taking HRT the body wouldn't work. The body needs hormones to live. But it's up to you how you want to transistion and what you want to do to your own body.

I was thinking low dose HRT would take care of that issue.

J xx

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on November 30, 2015, 01:09:01 PM
If you're going to take bottom surgery without HRT, you may get very dangerous and risky consequences. You can get osteoporosis, a skeleton disease and you can die.
Your body would not produce any testosterone post-op and without taking HRT the body wouldn't work. The body needs hormones to live. But it's up to you how you want to transistion and what you want to do to your own body.

Depending on what a person's needs are, it might be an option to take testosterone post-op. That would permit a literal bottom surgery-only transition.

Quote from: JS UK on November 30, 2015, 02:28:12 PM
I was thinking low dose HRT would take care of that issue.

I found low dose took care of a lot of my need to dysphoria and need transition, for a while. It eventually came back.

*

Claraaa,  WendyAnn.1969:

This issue seems to include the concept of the 'gatekeeper'.  Frankly, as long as the individual requesting surgery is not otherwise mentally incapacitated from making reasoned decisions regarding their health and well-being, it would be quite acceptable to experience whatever surgery makes you satisfied to meet your body alignment and resolve your anatomical dis-morphism.

   -  Dr. Suporn's policy:  ...' is not suffering from any psychological or psychiatric disorders that might be adversely influencing her decision or desire to undergo SRS.'

Thus it is agreed that the rational adult patient is well within her rights to request SRS as presented by discussion in this thread.

I had a counsellor during the 1990s who was old school.  His attitude was along the line that a M-F has the operation to have male partners so why would she want a female partner.  He made it known to me that he would have had a fit if I told him that I had a Lesbian partner - so I never told him of my Lesbian partner. 

My philosophy to orientation has been easy:  I never was reproductively capable so why should a 'gatekeeper' restrict my interests to suit their demands of that reproductive model when that had no application to my life.  Life is to be experienced.  Whether I choose to experience a partner who is heterosexual, homosexual, F-M, or any other, then that is my right to my privacy and not subject to jumping through hoops to satisfy the cultural whims of a counsellor.

*

It's really about my current situation not requiring it and I don't need social transition based on current SOC from WPATH. Thank goodness.

I'm a ugly woman for sure but sweet and kind. [emoji130]

Quote from: WendyAnn.1969 on December 04, 2015, 10:50:26 PM
It's really about my current situation not requiring it and I don't need social transition based on current SOC from WPATH. Thank goodness.

I was just planning on ignoring the SOC, but I'm curious where you read this in the SOC?

On of the 6 criteria for SRS is "12 continuous months of living in a gender role that is congruent with their gender identity." Do you interpret gender identity to mean whatever you want, or is it something else?

Pages 60 and 106 in version 7  of the SOC.

Quote from: Evolving Beauty on January 31, 2015, 11:00:38 PM
So you want to remain with a male appearance outwards but downward be operated with a vagina? I don't get it, explain.

All I can say is what ever makes you happy

Confused

Clarification

Mentally I just don't require other people to perceive me as a female to be happy.

I can be myself and ALSO not be driven to a more typical overt in your face female presentation, legal name change, etc.  Hide, no, but I will not wear a sign "woman inside" - for the sake of wearing a sign either. why would I?

I agree the SOC is usually interpreted as having to live in your desired gender presentation-whatever that means, for a period of time prior to surgical intervention.  Perhaps I have always done this - which is probably why I don't get the emphasis people place on this.

Lyndsey,
I am not sure that people would identify me so easily as a man...or a woman.
What I have in my pants is my (and my wife's) business and is in no way tied to how I dress.
What am I missing?  I also have medical issues that can be corrected with surgery...so...there is that.

Quote from: AnonyMs on December 01, 2015, 11:20:10 AM
I found low dose took care of a lot of my need to dysphoria and need transition, for a while. It eventually came back.

After long discussions with a female friend I'm now leaning towards transition. She's managed to make me see that my worst fears probably won't be realised (losing my income, daughter).

As being seen as a woman is equally important to me I think I'm going to go for it. I haven't slept since coming to this conclusion. I'm so nervous.

J xx

Quote from: AnonyMs on December 05, 2015, 12:39:41 AMOn of the 6 criteria for SRS is "12 continuous months of living in a gender role that is congruent with their gender identity." Do you interpret gender identity to mean whatever you want, or is it something else?

This has always appeared to me to mean what it says.  I don't see why this would mean 12 months as a female if that isn't the way you plan to live.

Quote from: WendyAnn.1969 on December 10, 2015, 09:12:50 PM
Clarification

Mentally I just don't require other people to perceive me as a female to be happy.

I can be myself and ALSO not be driven to a more typical overt in your face female presentation, legal name change, etc.  Hide, no, but I will not wear a sign "woman inside" - for the sake of wearing a sign either. why would I?

I agree the SOC is usually interpreted as having to live in your desired gender presentation-whatever that means, for a period of time prior to surgical intervention.  Perhaps I have always done this - which is probably why I don't get the emphasis people place on this.

I agree that my desired gender presentation can be fluid and doesn't have to be an overt sexualization to meet some gatekeepers interpretation.

Quote from: WendyAnn.1969 on December 10, 2015, 09:12:50 PM
I am not sure that people would identify me so easily as a man...or a woman.
What I have in my pants is my (and my wife's) business and is in no way tied to how I dress.
What am I missing?  I also have medical issues that can be corrected with surgery...so...there is that.

I think you have made your position quite clear, thank you for adding your voice to this conversation.

I am very similar to Clara. I fully disagree that I MUST conform to CAMH and do as they bid.

I truly believe that SRS is my goal and maybe certainly NOT be for others, but that shouldn't matter to any one as we ALL are different.

Each of us are Unique and should be treated this way. Sure the Trans community is still kind of "new", but in the medical community or the government they use the phrase "each candidate will be looked at by case by case"

Well it should be this way in everything, because everything and every one is different. We are certainly not a cookie cutter community.

I hope that I can get my SRS/GRS some day soon. I also hope I have a super Endocrinologist who also believes in what I believe and supports me.

So wish us all luck in our own endeavours.

SRS is not a possibility for me at this time and probably never.  Thus, I would still welcome a way to get total removal of the male genitals with a proper urethra relocation.  Then I could possibly justify presenting in which ever roll I would choose.

Quote from: Claraaa on January 31, 2015, 10:29:10 PM
I have gender dysphoria and am considering SRS/bottom surgery.  The twist is that I am considering this without fully transitioning. I am wondering if anyone has any experience with this.  I figure that MTF transitioning is like  the many shades of the rainbow and there must be many shades of transition.

Many thanks,
Clara

Hi, this was a couple of years ago and I was wondering how things turned out? I am going through the exact same thing and can't find much information. Pretty much everything about genital dysphoria is connected to gender dysphoria. I am trying to find other males who identify as male, do not wish to transition to female, but believe that they have the wrong genitalia. It seems there are not many.

I'm glad you resurrected this thread!  I've been wondering the same thing, to be honest.

So, my end desire is to transition fully, but there's been many times where I thought to myself, "If I could just get rid of that thing, I'd be so much happier."  That, and all the hair all over my body!!!

Not go get too deep in the NSFW territory, but, on top of feeling like it shouldn't be there, I also have a desire to be with men intimately.  And, although I do feel a desire for penetration, I have NO desire for using the backdoor, if you catch my meaning.

So these are two reasons that are important to me, and why I ultimately feel like SRS is the most necessary thing.

I forgot to add - For all those who replied "I'm confused" or "I don't understand" or anything similar, remember this: Many of the cisgendered community say the same thing about all of us.  In fact, it's ok to be confused about why someone would want anything, many times we're even confused about why we want something.

And like I said, that's ok!  That's why were here!  So let's just be supportive of everyone no mater what their decision is.

~Love, Ashley!

If you want to do this and have the money there's nothing much stopping you. Since I last posted here a couple of years ago I've heard of quite a number of people doing this.

I'm in a similar situation to this- I consider myself a gay male who wants to have a vagina instead of a penis but socially remain male. I want this so bad that I'm willing to "fake" going full time and on HRT in order to get approved for the surgery, but I'd rather not have to do that. I'm afraid that if I start seeing a therapist and tell them the truth, that they'll never approve me just because I don't fit the typical mold for a transgender woman. Thing is, I KNOW that this isn't some passing phase- I first recognized this feeling in my early teens; now I'm 28. This isn't going away. At first I thought I might be trans and I intensely researched it and realized that I probably wasn't since I don't particularly desire femininity but I still knew something was off. I'm quite positive that I won't miss my penis, as sexually I'm completely submissive- I have never taken the top role nor have I ever desired to, and I never pee standing up (unless I'm in the woods or something where there's no toilet at all). My husband has known about this for a few years and he fully supports me in this.

Some people are saying here that it's a viable path, but don't provide many details. I guess what I'd like to know is if it would be better to be up front with my therapist, or to fake it? In order to fake it I'd just take the pills and dress up as a woman for visits, but is there any way they would find out that I'm not "for real"? They can't really prove I'm not always in "girl mode", can they? Also, are there any tips for the "correct" things to say that will satisfy them?

I'm not providing many details because I hear things in confidence and I don't want to cause problems for anyone by what I say. Plus I've probably probably said all that really needs to be said. Search this site and others. Stick around on the site and keep reading/posting.

Xdreamr, I really don't know for certain, but it sounds to me like you're dysphoric about having a penis. You'll need to find a pair of psychologists or a psychologist and a therapist who are sympathetic to that. I don't think lying is the way to go. Most of the clinicians I know aren't clueless enough to fall for it. I would recommend creating a Gmail account you use for nothing else, writing up what you've told us, then sending that to every therapist you can find. Then do the same for psychologists. The way you describe yourself sounds like a form of non-binary and that's a perfectly OK thing to be. I, myself, was never uncomfortable being a woman with a penis until I started worrying about the way trans people often get treated in nursing homes. I'm getting up there in age. Best of luck to you, sweetie,

Dee

:

April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!

Think outside the voice box!

Quote from: WhatAmI? on August 03, 2017, 11:43:09 AM
Hi, this was a couple of years ago and I was wondering how things turned out? I am going through the exact same thing and can't find much information. Pretty much everything about genital dysphoria is connected to gender dysphoria. I am trying to find other males who identify as male, do not wish to transition to female, but believe that they have the wrong genitalia. It seems there are not many.

That is something I've actually given a lot of thought to.

Quote from: Dee Marshall on September 04, 2017, 07:35:01 AM
Xdreamr, I really don't know for certain, but it sounds to me like you're dysphoric about having a penis. You'll need to find a pair of psychologists or a psychologist and a therapist who are sympathetic to that. I don't think lying is the way to go. Most of the clinicians I know aren't clueless enough to fall for it. I would recommend creating a Gmail account you use for nothing else, writing up what you've told us, then sending that to every therapist you can find. Then do the same for psychologists. The way you describe yourself sounds like a form of non-binary and that's a perfectly OK thing to be. I, myself, was never uncomfortable being a woman with a penis until I started worrying about the way trans people often get treated in nursing homes. I'm getting up there in age. Best of luck to you, sweetie,

Dee

Thanks for the advice, Dee! I like your idea of just being up front and hoping to strike gold, but I fear that I won't find a pair who really understand me and are willing to help. From a doctor's perspective, they probably just see me as a malpractice lawsuit waiting to happen. I'll definitely try it when I'm ready to go through with this (readiness having to do more with finances than anything else).

If that fails I'll just have to go with plan B- try to fool them. I'm curious what you mean by them being "clueless" - I have actually done a lot of cross dressing, make up and voice practice in private - not out of any desire to genuinely present as female, but solely to have a good chance at fooling them. I feel like as long as I look the part and say all the right things, they can't just declare that I'm not "real". After all, it's not unheard of for people to go through the whole transition, bottom surgery and all, and then eventually transition back (for example "Joe Mangina" who was mentioned earlier in the thread, lives as a man and is perfectly happy having a vagina). If those people could pull it off, why not me?

Non-binary probably best describes me as I don't feel fully male, nor really female. I would just prefer to remain in the male social role because that's what I'm used to. I might just be agender, honestly. I feel like if I had been born female, I'd be equally OK with it, I'd just go along with what I'm used to and have no desire to transition to male. Only in that case I'd be happy with my genitals to begin with.

Quote from: xdreamr on September 04, 2017, 09:46:41 AM
Thanks for the advice, Dee! I like your idea of just being up front and hoping to strike gold, but I fear that I won't find a pair who really understand me and are willing to help. From a doctor's perspective, they probably just see me as a malpractice lawsuit waiting to happen. I'll definitely try it when I'm ready to go through with this (readiness having to do more with finances than anything else).

If that fails I'll just have to go with plan B- try to fool them. I'm curious what you mean by them being "clueless" - I have actually done a lot of cross dressing, make up and voice practice in private - not out of any desire to genuinely present as female, but solely to have a good chance at fooling them. I feel like as long as I look the part and say all the right things, they can't just declare that I'm not "real". After all, it's not unheard of for people to go through the whole transition, bottom surgery and all, and then eventually transition back (for example "Joe Mangina" who was mentioned earlier in the thread, who lives as a man and is perfectly happy having a vagina). If those people could pull it off, why not me?

Non-binary probably best describes me as I don't feel fully male, nor really female. I would just prefer to remain in the male social role because that's what I'm used to. I might just be agender, honestly. I feel like if I had been born female, I'd be equally OK with it, I'd just go along with what I'm used to and have no desire to transition to male. Only in that case I'd be happy with my genitals to begin with.

See! You said exactly the right thing to get your point across. Therapists who believe in non-binary would understand completely. Therapists dig deep into your life to understand, at least the good ones do. Maintaining a lie in the face of that can be daunting. If you do get caught be honest. Tell them that the charade was entirely because you're very unhappy living as you are. That's really all they want to see, that and no likelihood of wanting to transition back. People who do that might sue.

:

April 22, 2015, the day of my first face to face pass in gender neutral clothes and no makeup. It may be months to the next one, but I'm good with that!

Being transgender is just a phase. It hardly ever starts before conception and always ends promptly at death.

They say the light at the end of the tunnel is an oncoming train. I say, climb aboard!

Think outside the voice box!

Quote from: Dee Marshall on September 04, 2017, 09:53:33 AM
See! You said exactly the right thing to get your point across. Therapists who believe in non-binary would understand completely. Therapists dig deep into your life to understand, at least the good ones do. Maintaining a lie in the face of that can be daunting. If you do get caught be honest. Tell them that the charade was entirely because you're very unhappy living as you are. That's really all they want to see, that and no likelihood of wanting to transition back. People who do that might sue.

Thanks for the encouragement! I really hope that this can work but everything I've heard about "gatekeepers" and the standard of care suggests that they're usually intolerant of non-traditional gender expressions. You have to convince them that you really strongly identify with another gender, or else they think you're either just wasting their time or you're mentally ill and then they won't help you. It seems like all these hoops you have to jump through were placed there solely to prevent people like me from fixing ourselves, which is why I'm afraid of being honest.

I pass pretty well at 65 and have been out 100% socially for 12 years. Still, if I want to run to the store no way am I going to do my hair and some day makeup.  I put on a ball-cap pants and shirt and head to the store.  Its just easier.  I'm retired but I have a nice part time job in a hardware store where I open the store 2 days a week and close it 2 days. I do the same there too. I had SRS 2 weeks ago so I will likely get a job after the first of the year as myself.  After them covering for me for 6 weeks I''m going to support them thru the Holidays at least. My therapist knows all about this and thinks, as I do, that its just makes sense. . . .since I know who I really am . .  .

Quote from: Sebby Michelango on November 30, 2015, 01:09:01 PM
If you're going to take bottom surgery without HRT, you may get very dangerous and risky consequences. You can get osteoporosis, a skeleton disease and you can die.
Your body would not produce any testosterone post-op and without taking HRT the body wouldn't work. The body needs hormones to live. But it's up to you how you want to transistion and what you want to do to your own body.

You may want to do some additional research. There have been eunuchs now for at least 4000 years with recent studies showing castration actually increases lifespan. HRT is a fairly modern addition to a medical intervention aimed specifically at the needs of the Transgender population to alter secondary sex traits. Sure, there is a slight increase in risk for Osteoporosis but that can be mitigated without HRT.

I'm sure you aren't deliberately trying to scare people about this, nevertheless, let's try not pass on inaccurate information concerning the risk of not pursuing HRT after surgery.

I don't see a issue with it. You could just be a trans man if you got the op from male to female. Or just a real butch lesbian type ... but we all know most in this trans community become caricatures of what a woman should be.
Keyword here is "most"


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Hi

I had pretty much what you describe in that i did no RLE or HRT prior to SRS. A lot of the concerns raised preciously are valid especially the health issues due to lack of any hormones. It also depends why you want to do it for as the novelty wears off pretty quickly and then you are basically left as a guy with a vagina.

However if it is something you truly want as I did Id say go for it!

Quote from: Chrissym link=topic=182328.msg2023997#msg2023997
It also depends why you want to do it for as the novelty wears off pretty quickly and then you are basically left as a guy with a vagina.

How does it feel? Do you date and if so whom and how do you find your partners?

I wondered many times if it might be the best route for me if I ever have ability to transition? To start with a bottom surgery (cutting T and getting legal recognition), dealing with face hair  and low dose HRT, transitioning socially when face is ready...

Hi elkie-t

To be honest i struggled for the first few months post op. I did it completely on my own so i had no support and since i was still outwardly male, no one had any idea what i was going through. Trust me in that no matter what you may think, being a man without a penis requires a number of adjustments, especially if you dont want people to know.

I haven't dated as of yet but about 6 months ago i confided in my gay housemate when he discovered i was wearing womens underwear and we have had sex a few times since. To be honest i am not really interested in a relationship at the moment but i recently started HRT so i am concentrating on that at the moment.

Would a reccomend they way i did it? To be honest it was very very difficult and just from a support point of view i would suggest doing it the mainstream way, but in my mind if this is something you truly want then go for it!

I would love to know what kind of adjustments did you have to make? And what challenges did you have to overcome? If uncomfortable to post here, feel free to pm me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Quote from: elkie-t on September 08, 2017, 11:55:22 PM
I would love to know what kind of adjustments did you have to make? And what challenges did you have to overcome? If uncomfortable to post here, feel free to pm me


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

More than happy to share my experience and answer and questions you have but its probably easiest over chat or something similar but the basics are as follows:

First and foremost there is no magic or mystique about having a vagina. It is high maintenance, messy, moist, smelly and most of all inconvienant. Having one does not make you a woman trust me. Furthermore a recent post op vagina is all of that but can also be swollen and painful which coupled with the constant dilating is really not much fun.

I know that sounds really negative and while all that is true, for me all of that is offset by the fact that for the first time in my life it just looks normal down there and while the novelty has well and truly worn off, i wouldnt have it any other way. However if it is something you seriously want to do, be aware of the reality and not the dream.

Now i had mine without any RLE or HRT so preop i was a big hairy 6 foot man and I became a big hairy 6 foot man with a vagina as described above. Suffice to say it was a struggle dealing with the reality of it all especially during the healing period.

Day to day, life as a man assumes you have a penis, especially if you actually have had one for 30 years. Most of the issues i had with hiding the fact i had a vagina are probably similar to the experiences some ftm have so checking out their forums might be useful. For me the biggest things were as follows:

• lack of bulge - you are always conscious of it and unless you are using a packer, certain types of clothes can really make it obvious
• toilets and peeing - i work in the construction industry and i also do a lot of driving. The lack of sit down toilets becomes very noticable when you have to sit down to pee. Driving long distances can also be a drag in actually having to make toilet stops rather than finding a roadside tree. Its an adjustment anyway but making it work in an almost male only construction industry can be challenging. Randomly the sound women make when peeing is different to that of a man, even a man sitting down
• clothing choice - related to my first point but are you going to wear male only clothing or mix and match. Especially recently post op, sanitary pads are your friend and they dont sit very well in male underwear. Alternatively, womens underwear will fit better but the band may be a big giveaway to people
• Relationships - for obvious reasons a man with a vagina is not high on most people's list as a suitable relationship partner. That being said there are people out there where it wont matter, but in general, living as a normal hetrosexual man, you will have difficulties with relationships.
• hormones - losing your testicles as part of srs really plays havoc with your hormones. If you dont plan to replace them with either estrogen or testosterone, you will experience some major side effects. Hot flushes, lose of energy, loss of strength, depression. These are all just mild effects you may experience but it can ne life threatening.

Now that is just the basic clip notes and there is a lot more to it but bottom line is that it is major surgery and a major change and its not all roses and puppies. If you chose to do it, just be aware you are probably going to have a vagina for the rest of your life with all its pros and cons. Happy to answer any questions you have and i wish you well whatever you choose.

Quote from: Chrissym on September 09, 2017, 03:34:37 AM
More than happy to share my experience and answer and questions you have but its probably easiest over chat or something similar but the basics are as follows:

First and foremost there is no magic or mystique about having a vagina. It is high maintenance, messy, moist, smelly and most of all inconvienant. Having one does not make you a woman trust me. Furthermore a recent post op vagina is all of that but can also be swollen and painful which coupled with the constant dilating is really not much fun.

I know that sounds really negative and while all that is true, for me all of that is offset by the fact that for the first time in my life it just looks normal down there and while the novelty has well and truly worn off, i wouldnt have it any other way. However if it is something you seriously want to do, be aware of the reality and not the dream.

Now i had mine without any RLE or HRT so preop i was a big hairy 6 foot man and I became a big hairy 6 foot man with a vagina as described above. Suffice to say it was a struggle dealing with the reality of it all especially during the healing period.

Day to day, life as a man assumes you have a penis, especially if you actually have had one for 30 years. Most of the issues i had with hiding the fact i had a vagina are probably similar to the experiences some ftm have so checking out their forums might be useful. For me the biggest things were as follows:

• lack of bulge - you are always conscious of it and unless you are using a packer, certain types of clothes can really make it obvious
• toilets and peeing - i work in the construction industry and i also do a lot of driving. The lack of sit down toilets becomes very noticable when you have to sit down to pee. Driving long distances can also be a drag in actually having to make toilet stops rather than finding a roadside tree. Its an adjustment anyway but making it work in an almost male only construction industry can be challenging. Randomly the sound women make when peeing is different to that of a man, even a man sitting down
• clothing choice - related to my first point but are you going to wear male only clothing or mix and match. Especially recently post op, sanitary pads are your friend and they dont sit very well in male underwear. Alternatively, womens underwear will fit better but the band may be a big giveaway to people
• Relationships - for obvious reasons a man with a vagina is not high on most people's list as a suitable relationship partner. That being said there are people out there where it wont matter, but in general, living as a normal hetrosexual man, you will have difficulties with relationships.
• hormones - losing your testicles as part of srs really plays havoc with your hormones. If you dont plan to replace them with either estrogen or testosterone, you will experience some major side effects. Hot flushes, lose of energy, loss of strength, depression. These are all just mild effects you may experience but it can ne life threatening.

Now that is just the basic clip notes and there is a lot more to it but bottom line is that it is major surgery and a major change and its not all roses and puppies. If you chose to do it, just be aware you are probably going to have a vagina for the rest of your life with all its pros and cons. Happy to answer any questions you have and i wish you well whatever you choose.

Informative info. How has it been for you in terms of sensation in the vagina area and acheiving orgasm?   Do you maintain a sex drive?

Quote from: NCAmazon on September 09, 2017, 08:24:22 AM
Informative info. How has it been for you in terms of sensation in the vagina area and acheiving orgasm?   Do you maintain a sex drive?

Sensation is very good both vaginally and from my clitoris. I can orgasm from masturbation in about a minute from clitoral stimulation.  Ive only had sex a few times since SRS and while i havent orgasmed from any of those times, vaginal penetration and stimulation on my gspot/prostate feels very nice

Great post, Chryssym. I have to salute you for having the courage and strength for knowing your heart and choosing the path less traveled.

Quote from: Chrissym on September 09, 2017, 03:34:37 AM
First and foremost there is no magic or mystique about having a vagina. It is high maintenance, messy, moist, smelly and most of all inconvienant. Having one does not make you a woman trust me. Furthermore a recent post op vagina is all of that but can also be swollen and painful which coupled with the constant dilating is really not much fun.

Boy, this is the truth.  For years I dreamed of being anatomically correct, and I placed inappropriate emphasis on SRS being the zenith of my transition. It turns out it was not, and in hindsight I can scarcely believe I fell into this thought process.

I was already living full-time as a very passable female, but I had a strong sense of genital dysphoria. I hated having a penis in my panties. I had to be careful what I wore, and I didn't dare wear a bathing suit or anything revealing.  All during my RLE, I was counting down the days to my SRS.  When I finally had the surgery, I was expecting some sort of sublime satisfaction, or bliss, or something, but I really didn't feel any different.  I was all bandaged up with thick gauze and surgical tape, and I couldn't see anything, and I couldn't feel anything different down there.

Even a few days later, after getting all the bandages and packing and catheter removed, it was kind of underwhelming.  Yeah, it was great not seeing male genitalia, but I was swollen and sore, and the surgical site looked awful. Then, as you say, one is soon dealing with the reality of dilating and pain and blood and mess.

I have absolutely no regrets about having SRS, but honestly, the whole process of having FFS, getting my name and gender legally changed, coming out to friends, family, and coworkers, and going full-time as a female had more impact on my life and was more psychically satisfying. SRS was just taking care of "loose ends", pardon the expression. That's why I think the terms "Gender Confirmation Surgery", or "Gender Correction Surgery" are not very appropriate.  It didn't confirm anything for me, and it certainly didn't "correct" my gender. My sense of gender is located between my ears, not between my legs.   

With kindness,

Terri

This is first time on one of these forums. I found this thread (I know, its probably dead now.), while doing some very general research for myself. I'll start by introducing what/who I am.

I am a sorta-cis male, but have been curious about a transition since early childhood. I've always been interested in being female, but never felt that a transition was for me since I have a deeply ingrained desire to continue my family's line, and current technology wouldn't let me get pregnant if I did an MtF transition. As a result, I'm "content enough" to be male, but never lost the jealousy of girls for their bodies, in particular, the crotch. I'm a college student now, and realize that if I acted early on, I could transitioned before my features became distinctly male, and gotten sperm saved.
During my recent browsing, I had seen a post elsewhere that brought the idea of a change back to the forefront of my mind and helped me figure out what I want. While I would love to live fully as a female, my real issue has been genital dysphoria, and jealous of girls being able to wear certain clothing on the bottom.

Here is my thought process currently, and if anyone reads this, I'd like some input. Note that I have slightly oversimplified this for conciseness.
I am currently in college, and will probably have a fair amount of savings for it left over if I keep on track with my grades. At that point, I will figure out my living situation, and get sperm saved. After that, I'd see about getting a vaginoplasty at around age 25, and any minimal amount of hormones necessary for my health, as well as whatever I could afford to shape that region, my butt, and my legs. I'm in CA in a very accepting area, and think that I would be comfortable living life as a male with female plumbing. I'm sure I'd get looks as I go about life in leggings or whatever else I choose that shows it off, but I'd feel much more comfortable with myself.

I have talked with someone who got a full transition, and really only feel like I need this much to be comfortable with myself.

What kind of input do you want?

Anywhere under 25 is really good age to transition. Its far from being late to get a great result. However the sooner the better so I'd not just leave it for years. Personally I think you should talk to a good gender therapist and consider HRT first. You might find your interest in transitioning changes on HRT.

Have a read of this post

My journey from NB to tomboy
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=229051.0

A few years ago I met a person who had bottom and top surgery to ease their dysphoria about themselves but spent the next several decades still presenting as a man.  They had their reasons for doing so and it worked for them.  It was not until their 70's at least, that they finally admitted their secret to their children, peers, church and came out 100%.    We are unique and we all deal with our needs in a way that works for us.  This person worked in an office and hid their top surgery by wearing a suit coat every day.  It's sad that my meeting this extrodinary individual was a chance meeting and I didn't have the presence of mind to exchange contact info for I very much would have liked to hear more of their story.

Quote from: Evolving Beauty on February 03, 2015, 04:48:29 AM
It's very dangerous to do SRS, orchie without taking either hormones estrogens or Testosterone. If the body doesn't get either hormone you might end up with Osteoporosis where it comes a point your bones can become as brittle as a chalk.

For sure talk to your doctor about this.  I think its important to be taking calcium twice a day even if you are on HRT to avoid Osteoporosis.  But check with a doctor about it first.

Gregory Hemmingway, the eldest son of Ernest Hemmingway had SRS in 1995.
He wasn't on HRT and didn't live fulltime. He occassionally crossdressed en femme and called himself Gloria on these occassions.
He also had one breast implant placed which he later got removed.
He died in 2001 and was put in a women's prison when the guards discovered he had a vagina.
His kids used the fact that he had a vagina against him, to make sure his wife would get nothing of his fortune, after he passed away. Florida didn't recognise same-sex marriages back then.
It was unclear how Gregory Hemmingway identified exactly but he introduced himself as a male about 90 percent of the time and presented as such.

So even in the 90s with enough money one could get SRS without fulltime presenting.

I actually wonder who he went to see?
Doctor Bieber was still alive and operating back then and very popular in the USA as a SRS surgeon back then. Marci Bowers was still a gynaecologist back then and didn't do SRS surgeries yet.
So I think Gregory Hemingway might have made the trip to Colorado for his SRS.

I also always see everyone posing HRT as an absolute necessity when one has no gonads anymore.
I was on Lupron shots for over 5 years with no HRT, before going for full HRT.  I did it because I couldn't socially transition back then. Apart from mild hotflashes I never developed adverse side effects in that period.

My mother has had a radical hysterectomy two years ago at age 47,5 .
She has not been on HRT because she is concerned for breast cancer.

She sports regularly, she eats well, she is very active and works fulltime and she has had no adverse reactions apart from hot flashes and mild depression.
She looks 10 years younger than her actual age, is super feminine looking and in good health.
Her doctors are not concerned about her not being on HRT. The adrenal glands still produce some hormone amounts.
As well as do the fatty tissues in the breasts and the brains also produce Estradiol.
She is of menopausal age and her hormone levels are on par with women her age.

There is a YouTuber named Mardi and she is a 57 year old trans woman who transitioned as a 17 year old. She only took hormones for 1 year in her life. She is not on HRT and is 30 years post-op and passes very well.

So it's not always black and white with having low sex hormones.
It's amazing how self-sufficient the body can be.

Some have terrible side effects when left without HRT after gonadectomy, others are perfectly fine without HRT after gonadectomy.
It's not cut and dry.

Quote from: AnonyMs on May 09, 2019, 06:27:46 AM
Anywhere under 25 is really good age to transition. Its far from being late to get a great result. However the sooner the better so I'd not just leave it for years. Personally I think you should talk to a good gender therapist and consider HRT first. You might find your interest in transitioning changes on HRT.

Have a read of this post

My journey from NB to tomboy
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php?topic=229051.0

I appreciate the sentiment and the story, but above the waist I have a very masculine yet not muscular build. I'm not one of those guys who got a thin torso and effeminate qualities to begin with, and my social role never particularly bothered me, so I'm happy to stay as-is when it comes to that, and am pretty sure I would feel like a fraud if I went for a full transition.
Since about age 8, I noticed girls smooth crotch with skin tight bottoms in swimsuits and sportswear catalogs, and was jealous and thought it looked so comfortable, but was never fully convinced to the idea of boobs, bras and bikinis, though I probably wouldn't mind it. As I hit puberty I found myself really uncomfortable with my penis and testes, and wished they'd go away ever since, and still find several annoyances about having them.

I had seen some guys out for a run today in nothing more than their loose track shorts, and I couldn't help but think that I'd be happy to do the same but would only do it if I could wear womens skin tight shorts and without the bouncing of my junk. I guess I'm just one of those people who doesn't care what people think of me as long as I'm not a disturbance, eyesore, or stink up the place. I also had to fare with the irritation of my junk getting in a twist and going down the wrong pant leg later in the day.

I'm holding off on the entire thing for now (only 21), since I want to know that I'm in a relatively stable financial position after getting a bachelors degree (already have associates), a steady income, and hopefully getting out of living with my parents, which is entirely possible within two or three years at present if I don't chicken out. I'd prefer to have the bottom-only switch, and manage to hide or suppress the obviousness of it in their presence. I know they accept the concept in the abstract, but I had told them that I hadn't been interested when asked (It came up when one started doing work for a fully MtF trans.), which isn't lying per-se, see the second sentence of the second paragraph in my previous post. However, after that was established, the other made some remark about not knowing how they'd feel (negative connotation) if one of their kids (me or my step-siblings) had been trans.
I know hiding it perfectly would be pretty hard, but I think I could warm them up to idea slowly after the fact simply by my attire when I visit. If they properly figured it out they'd probably not be outright surprised since I have always been uncomfortable with talk about sex and the body, especially my own. The couple-week vacation to the SF bay area or another city would be inconspicuous in itself since I've always been interested in some of the cities that happen to have places that do the procedure.

Well, I'm trying to keep things concise and avoid writing out my life's story, but that's partially gone out the window. Hopefully I kept things somewhat coherent. My parting question for the night is this, after a bottom switch, is anyone aware of a couple different options with regards to a minimal impact to or from hormones? If a low dose of T just keeps things mostly as they are, maintaining my health, I'd probably take that. I'm also curious but doubtful as to whether there is such a thing as a mixed E and T dose, which could strike a balance. I'm going to outright doubt that you could for the most part separate what parts of the body are affected, but I would be quite pleased if there was a way to have E just (or primarily) to feminize my lower half, and T primarily maintaining things as they are on the top.

You don't get to pick what parts of your body are effected by hormones, but you can adjust the dose. Estrogen has a powerful psychological affect which you can't really appreciate until you try it, and there's no predicting how it will effect you.

Your main difficulty is finding doctors who will do what you want, but its quite possible as others have. Not sure how far you'll get if you're relying on insurance, but you can do whatever you want if you have the money and determination. I know of a number of people who have.

I appreciate you're probably non-binary, but it also seems like you have doubts you could successfully transition to female. I sometimes think the same thing, but its amazing what others have done. Have a look at the YouTube video "MALE to FEMALE - TRANSITION INSPIRATION (12 months HRT)" by Sona Avedian.

Quote from: AnonyMs on May 10, 2019, 01:52:39 AM
You don't get to pick what parts of your body are effected by hormones, but you can adjust the dose. Estrogen has a powerful psychological affect which you can't really appreciate until you try it, and there's no predicting how it will effect you.

Your main difficulty is finding doctors who will do what you want, but its quite possible as others have. Not sure how far you'll get if you're relying on insurance, but you can do whatever you want if you have the money and determination. I know of a number of people who have.

I appreciate you're probably non-binary, but it also seems like you have doubts you could successfully transition to female. I sometimes think the same thing, but its amazing what others have done.

I guess this whole thing is an iterative process to think about now that I'm not mentally shrugging it off. Since last posting I have become less concerned about estrogen if I can take relatively small doses. I have quite a passive temperament and am not unusual or remarkably stand-out looking. (Beta male?) So I suppose I'd still be passably male if my features softened to a relatively small degree. Another part of my aversion to a full change is that I feel like I've pretty much missed the window in which I figure being fully female would be most fun, 15-25-ish, and getting near the 40s and older that presenting as a man who happens to wear female clothing on the bottom would be more comfortable. The only thing that's really bothered my consistently is my genitals and the clothing limitations that result.

I'll continue with my aforementioned "get through college and be somewhat sorted" timeline and hope that everything goes well. Could someone tell me where I could see a beginners guide to what E vs T could/would change and to what degrees? Depending on budget and effects, I might just see about training and/or surgery to get my upper legs and such shaped nicely.

I don't expect much more need to discuss here, so thanks for getting me thinking and somewhat informed!

Have a look at this post.

My low dose HRT experience (was 9 month low dose HRT)
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,130268.0.html