Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Many of the posts here in the "spiritual" section of Susan's deal with specifics on whether a church accepts us, or we, as transgenders, can feel comfortable in a church.  My query is far more basic.  WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD OR GODS?  I have a few lifelong queries:

(1) It has always been amazing to me that, after major tragedy, some survivors will say "God was with us" or, in the case of non-survival, "God meant him to join angels in heaven."  And yet some VERY devout religious people (9-11 or the recent mine disaster) end up dead.  This  contradiction and irony is often defended by the "self-determination" argument - that we are, ourselves, responsible for what happens to us.  It seems odd that there can be self-determination (we determine our fate) and, at the same time, have god or gods creating things around us (like mine disasters).  If we survive, is it because of us or God?

(2) It's puzzling to me that anyone like a transgender who is an object of discrimination by the church or self-defined "religious" folk would still wish to affiliate or associate with some bigotted people of that organization.  The Catholic church in Rome seems to have so many bigotted views against gays that I wonder why American Catholics don't just separate from Rome...but I digress.  Even if you are fortunate enough to find a small Catholic church that is GLBT-accepting, why would you want part of your church monies to be sent to narrow-minded church elders in Rome? 

(3) But the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION (to me, anyway) that I'd like to be addressed in your posts is this:  Why do YOU believe?  I know many who, at some point, turn to God and find comfort there.  They tell me, "All you need to do is reach out and He'll be there."  I try and try and nothing happens.  I see devout people in churches and I don't understand how they can have FAITH in something so nebullous, so seemingly illogical, so not-scientifically based.  And, I'm not the first to notice that more horror has probably been created in the name of religion than anything else - this by, holier-than-thou "religious" folk (note that I put "religious" in quotes - I feel people who murder and torture are not religious, though they obviously self-define themselves as so).

I have trouble with anything written like the Bible because it was written so long ago in a time where there was not a questioning press.  If the New York Times or L.A. Times had just been writing alongside the Bible-writers there would be a second or third SOURCE, the whole "Jesus is God" thing would be a lot more believable for me.  Whenever a reporter relies on an unreliable source (the "12 MINERS ALIVE" fiasco comes to mind), there is always danger of inaccuracy. And yet, here we are in a very sophisticated scientific society and yet our leaders carry the Bible and it is socially and politically-suicidal to admit any other possibility.  And the threat, by many religions, is that if we don't believe, we'll go to Hell.  Do people truly believe or do they believe as insurance - "Just in case there is a God, I don't want to go to Hell."  How can so many believe so fully and yet that STRONG faith eludes me?

I believe in the POSSIBILITY or even probability that there's SOMETHING OUT THERE - a god or force that started life in the universe.  But talking or praying to something that may or may not EXIST -- well, the logical side of my brain says, "What are you doing?"  As you may have guessed, I'm the suspicious not-by-the book type.  Tradition is something that I have trouble with -- I skipped my college graduation ceremony.  I read, a few months ago (in Time magazine?) that some people's brains are more susceptable to "sprituality" or believing something unprovable.  If God exists, would he punish those of us whose brains aren't the right shape to truly believe?  Poor and rich, intelligent and not so - many or most believe.  There are even some very famous scientists that believe.  Part of me is jealous of something that, despite trying, isn't coming my way.  Because so many believe, the whole religion thing could still prove false.  There have been cases where masses of humanity thought something that proved false (flat earth, earth as center of the universe, etc). 

After I had my GRS, I was unfortunate enough, in television channel-surfing, to come across a minister who called post ops like me "butchers of their own bodies."  That obviously didn't make me more warm and fuzzy about religion, but that's a different discussion.... For now, just tell me, bottom line WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD OR GODS?  I'd love it if it could be something more than, "I turned to Him in that time of woe and He was there for me."  Unfortunately, that explanation doesn't help me to get to where you are.  Just give me YOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE.

Teri Anne

hello!
I have really enjoyed reading your thoughts and I hope some of my response will give you further things to think about in your spiritual journey.

1) You make a strong point, no matter what happens God is never at fault, the problem comes when people try to make it someone's fault or praise someone for the miraculous survival. The truth is no matter if it be a God a greater force we can not understand the greater picture to which that incident affected. There is a verse in the bible (Christian, that is my point of view just to let you know) Luke 9:1-3 and I feel it addresses this problem (please correct me if I'm not answering your question) where as Christ says he is blind so that the power of Christ can be displayed. On to the second part of the question do we play a role, I would say yes, if I put a gun to my head and pull the trigger if i live its a miracle, but high chances are I'm going to die. My idea is if there is great survival rejoice and praise who ever and if it be a death go ahead and morn but for either of those cases we don't know why the outcome came out that way.

2) This question is slightly harder for me to answer since I'm not catholic, I will say I do belong to the Salvation Army and they have taken a stance against the gay and lesbian community in what they practice. Would I say a church is being wrong by not accepting the GBLT behavior? I do not believe this to be wrong. It does become wrong when love is not being shown. As I perceive from the catholic church the Pope is trying to hold up a standard (one you may not agree with which you are entitled to) An example I can give is  the army has a strong stance against drinking and gambling yet are denomination was founded on helping the alcoholics of society. So just a different view is all I can offer on question 2, hope it helps.

3) Why believe? Good question to which I can not really answer. You mention "And, I'm not the first to notice that more horror has probably been created in the name of religion than anything else." I would agree but also keep in mind the two great genocides where created over one race feeling superior over another (Nazi's and the genocide in Rwanda) Lets also keep in my mind that the great majority of the world has some religious beliefs and has been so since the beginning of time. Because religion is so great and makes for such a grand cause to follow it has been abused so certain people may gain power. Let us keep in my mind no one group of people is perfect they all have short falls and hypocrisy not just those claiming religious beliefs.

4) Are sacred writing relevant? I would say yes. You say if the "New York times" or other groups have writing alongside the bible it could be more believable. Let's take the gospels in the bible (Christian bible) they have four different authors. Not all the authors where around Christ, the book of Luke has been noted to be of a historical style of writing, chances are he did his research on this Christ character because the chance of him writing wrong facts would have been quickly dispelled because many heard Christ's teachings. Such principals found in the bible (love, grace, justice, discipline) are still current today as they where back then. I urge anyone when reading any sacred writing read it in the context of the time it will help a lot. Finally a Greek historian once wrote something along these lines "I document the battle of Thermopylae so that future generations won't make our mistakes, history is practical I believe.

I write this letter to offer a different point of view and with great hopes we be able to help one grow in there life.
From a caring brother: James!

>YOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE

Too much in my life has happened which cannot be described by mundane means.

That said, it's certainly no proof that anything I think exists actually does.  Mind you, if I truly believed that when life ended it was the end of the line for us... well, I'd be hard pressed to not suicide in short order. So, are my memories and feelings which simply do NOT fit in with the scientific word products of my mind to keep me alive? ^shrug

That said, I've not a clue about religion. It's always struck me as a wolf leading a pack a sheep. Sometimes the wolf is benevolent, sometimes not. But even if you find a good wolf, you're still a sheep and I can't be comfortable with that.

For what little it is worth ;)

Dear Teri Anne,

1. If no God exists then things just happen.  However if there is a God why do bad things happen to good people?  The answer is that God works using God's time not our time.  To a person that believes in God that means that a bad thing can happen to a good person; however, the good person will not be forgotten by God.  "God knows every feather of every sparrow and you are more important to God than all the sparrows." 

2. People are very narrow minded not God.  Jesus told the crowd,"You of no sin can cast the first stone." The lady that committed adultery was not stoned to death because Jesus saved her life.  Jesus told her to go and believe and she would see the kingdom of God. 
As Jesus was dying on the cross he turned to a murderer and forgave the murderer and promised the murderer the kingdom of heaven for having asked Jesus for forgivness.
John the Baptist told Jesus that John the Baptist was not worthy to baptist Jesus.  However it is the Holy Spitit that baptises not a human.  We are all ministers of God but we are only humans.  We are worthy of being ministers but we are not worthy to judge other humans.  Only God will judge humans.  God will accept a gay person, a transexual person, and/or a sinner that truly asks for forgivness.  God will not accept any person that does not believe.  Being saved is the Grace of God and not an act earned by human judgement.  God saves us as a gift.  If you believe you are saved.  If you do not believe you are not saved.  Humans do not accept us if we are not like them.

We are born with an innate ability to know that the universe contains more than just humans.  If fact very few humans believe that the only life in the universe is just the life on Earth.
It even gets more complicated in that brillant scientists have theorized that we have more than three demensions.  It is very possible that another demension is watching us.  This other demension may be where our spirit goes.

3. I believe in God because there is nothing that shows me that God does not exist and there is a lot of evidence that shows he does exist.  History shows that Jesus did exist.  In fact if you study the bible and history you will find that Jesus somehow got out of the tomb after Jusus died.  If you recall the tomb of Jesus was guarded by a squad of Roman soldiers and the stone in front of the tomb would take 10 strong men to move.  In the days of the Romans any soldier that left his post would be put to death.  A Romain soldier would die before leaving his post.  Somehow Jesus got out of the tomb.
Jesus walked along with the living after he was dead.  Jesus made himself seen by many.  Many people recorded seeing Jesus after his death in the scriptures. 
Of cause you might believe that Jesus was faking his death.  After he was crucified on the cross a soldier plunged a spear into his side.  Water came out of the wound. When a person dies water starts accumulating and will pour out of the body when cut. History clearly states Jesus was dead and the recorded facts show he was dead.
History states that Jesus died, was buried and rose again.  That is great news.  It is as revalent to the living today as it was 20000 years ago.

The new testiment of the bible was written over 2000 years ago.  The writers used stories and analogies that were relavant to the people listening and reading the stories.  However the message is still very relavant and every story teaches a great lesson.
...............
I will share a little about me....
I suffered the ridicule of these gender issues starting as a little boy.  I grew up in a tough part of a big city.  My initiation into public school was various bullies  sitting on top on me.  As I grew bigger I grew bigger than the bullies but I always kept a kind heart.  Older men (and women) found ways to attack me mentally since I was physcially too big.  I came to this site looking for better medicines to self-medicate and get my external body equal to my internal body.  This site probably saved my life because I thought the physical pains I felt were from the "transition process".  I found out the pains were from overdosing from various medications and I was killing myself.  I wonder if any people that saved me at this site believe in God?   I wonder if God sent me to this site to save me from myself?  I wonder if God sent me to you?

I think all Christains have doubts.  Abraham was asked by God to kill his only son.  God spared Abraham's son but Abraham had a faith that was stronger than most modern Christains. 
Heaven is a place where you are with God.  Hell is a place which you are not with God.  We all have an inner spirit that is more than the water and handful of chemical that comprise our body.  We were born with an innate knowledge and curiousity to know we are not alone in this universive.  If you believe then by the grace of God you are saved.  You do not have to earn being saved or look like other humans think you should look to be saved.
God loves you for you and opinions by humans remain opinions of humans not the opinion of God.

Teri,

You can choose to believe me or not. It really doesn't matter. What I am about to say some would call blashpemy or heretical but it is the truth. I do not believe god exists, I know he does. I know because he talks to me. I don't mean like a voice in my head or sometihng. He comes to me in my sleep much like he did with the prophets of the old testament. Why? I don't know. It isn't all the time just every now and then. Sometimes we just talk sometimes he shows me things, like how the world will end.

One time I was at a particularly low point in my life. I had no job was broke and could see no end in sight. He came to me that night and we walked along a jetti in Santa Cruz, a palce I knew from when I lived out there. We watched the sail boats sailing in and out of the harbour. He asked what was troubling me even though I knew he knew. We talked about it and he told me not to worry. In a month I would have a new contract. A month later the company I was listed with as a computer consultant called and had a contract for me. A very lucrative one, and I had many contracts which followed. sometimes two at a time.

He has told me before that he does not intervene in the affairs of man without being asked, and that, only rarely. He does not cause things to happen. It kind of blows the whole free will thing. He always answers your prayers. You may not like the answer.

The earth itself is a living thing. The weather, earthquakes, mine disasters etc all happen because it is in the basic design which posseses a random element. It does what it does and there are many elements that can affect it's behavior. If man does things that cause the temperatures to rise then a record season of hurricanes isn't gods fault. If a mine explodes from a gas buildup in a sealed section, god didn't make it happen. Man was the one who dug in there capped it off and then ignored the danger.

He has been in my life from the beggining. There have been times when I have been angry with him. Yelled at him even argued with him. But, he has never deserted me. He is with me whenever I need him I need only call and he will come and we will talk and all will be well.

I'm sure you probably don't believe me. That's okay. That's why I chose the name Cassandra. No one ever believes me. No one believed me when I told them two planes were about to be crashed into the twin towers either. That's the thing. You can choose to believe or you can choose not to believe. For me I know, all doubt has been removed. I have seen many things that are yet to come to pass. When exactly they will happen I can't say. When the time comes I will recognize it. It is a feeling of DeJa Vue.

When 9-11 happened I was sitting at my desk at work. Someone walked up and started carrying on a conversation. I recognized it. I remember thinking how I knew that conversation and finished what the person was saying. He said yeh how did you know? Then it hit me. I turned my radio on to the news and there it was. We found a TV and watched as the second plane hit. It was just as it had been shown to me.

You can doubt me but for me that is not an option. Why I am shown these things I do not know. It seems rather useless to know and yet be unable to do anything about it. Maybe it is so I can tell others so that there faith may be fortified. Assuming whoever I tell believes me. Maybe it is to plant a seed of doubt in the minds of those who like yourself have lost the ability or the faith to believe.

As to man and his religions all I can say is god is not a religion. Religions are a creation of man who has lost the ability to be close to god. Religion more often expands the gulf between man and god. Christ said all you have to do is believe. I have always taken him for his word and that seems to work. I reccomend you read Robert Hienlen's "Stranger in A Strange Land" I think you will find it insightful.

God Bless,

Cassie

Teri, I read your post & my first thought was no, she's got it all wrong.  But on reflection I consider its a very good post because it makes one think, and anything that does that is by nature good. Hey I'll give you my take on things if I may :)
1. The whole point of us being here is to be tested, our bodies are of no consequence, its our souls that are important - I imagine our existance here as a sort of virtual reality video  game (yeah I know, a bit silly - but its MY take on things :)  ),and when we finish we look around and see reality -  material things including our mortal bodies were of no consequence only the lessons learn't from participating.  I believe God either dosent care what happens to our mortal selves OR he does, but how can we understand his workings - he is infinite.
I would like to believe we will never be tested beyond our ability to resist (I do have doubts here :(  )
2. I'm Catholic and it is a tenant of the Church that only two beings know if you have committed a sin - yourself in your deepest heart, and God. NOBODY else does, despite what the circumstances may appear to be so NOBODY should judge you.  Also, Gods forgiveness is infinite, Jesus makes a real point of this.  I don't believe the Catholic Church is bigoted - I have seen no evidence in its teachings and the only problem I noticed between the US Catholic hierarchy & Rome was that they appeared to be slow & reluctant to take action against paedophile priests despite Romes urgings. I guess its that humans are imperfect and that any human works will therefore be imperfect too - that includes all churches.
3. As far as the Bible goes well yes I agree - ie the story of Esau & Jacob always burnt me up - I thought Jacob was a slimy little toad.  Its the New Testament that holds me.  In the Gospels you can see that the apostles are trying (imperfectly but to the best of their ability, to relate a truely wonderful thing - that shines through their writings.
The question of belief - will always be one of faith & it will be an individual thing, nobody can force you to believe, any belief system that does is a perversion. 
I believe that God exists, thou I would be lying if I said I dont have doubts & worries :(
Walter Raleigh wrote a poem that ends ".....and from the dust, my God will raise me up I trust"  Thats my position, I trust

What follows are my beliefs which are not intended to offend, but may offend a few nevertheless.

I have been angry at "God" most of my life.  I was raised Roman Catholic but when my gender problems became obvious and in my mind, unsolvable, I blamed God and turned away.  I identified most of my life as an athiest and found any belief system or God illogical and stupid.  My background in science led me to analyze all of the major religions in a logical way and I concluded to was no evidence of a divine hand, just the ticking of the cosmic clock.  A lot can happen in five billion years just by chance.

I have come to realize that living by science alone is nearsighted.  Science has never has all the answers and never will and therefore, the idea that if something is not observable it can't exist is equally short-sighted.  Don't get me wrong, I despise people who condemn science as wrong just because it produces some inconvenient questions for their religion.  But think of radio waves.  200 years ago, they did not exist because we could not observe them.  We continue to discover new things that throw old ideas in the fire.  Science is not absolute.

There exists on the fringe an area called the paranormal, inhabited by ghosts and other unexplained phenomena, that science can't explain.  The answer then is that they must not exist.  I understand that in science, things cannot be given credence without an observable set of behaviours defined by certain principles; nevertheless, that doesn't mean they don't exist.  On the other end exists the religions of the world which operate on faith only and it's curious that the central tenet of most of them is that you must not question that faith!  I don't have any use for any of them.  The Bible or Koran?  Just books.

I do believe in a higher power, but I don't have words to describe it.  Part of my transition has been a spiritual journey and opening myself to the possibility of a "God" and I have had a number of things occur that have strengthened that sense.  I do not believe that this God interferes in the day-to-day events of the world; it seems absurd that a God that created the wonders of the universe would be bothered with trivia--actually I think it's typical human arrogance to think God "smites" people or helps them with their physics exam.  I do think you can ask for the strength to manage the difficult turns in your life but that is where divine intervention ends. 

Dawn

Quote from: Teri Anne on January 08, 2006, 09:58:04 PM

(1) It has always been amazing to me that, after major tragedy, some survivors will say "God was with us" or, in the case of non-survival, "God meant him to join angels in heaven."

I believe this is a self-defense mechanism in an attempt to cope with events which people find displeasurable.  In any case, the events were "God's Plan" which allows one to go on with their life, regardless of what God's Plan really is, if such a God even exists.

Quote(3) But the MOST IMPORTANT QUESTION (to me, anyway) that I'd like to be addressed in your posts is this:  Why do YOU believe?

Because I want to.  Because it made sense to me.  Because there's too much weird stuff in my life for it all to have happened by chance.  The evidence points to an intelligent, or rather, an un-telligent designer.  That's right, an UN-telligent designer, because I refuse to believe that an intelligent designer would create human beings, after having created the rest of the world so perfectly.  But I believe that there is some driving force behind life, the universe, and everything.  Even if the driving force is forty-two.

I've also experienced things which aren't easily explained by science, like precognitive dreams and dream guides.  If dreams were really just a random firing of neurons, then theoretically the chance of having a precognitive dream is so low that you would win the lottery ten times before you had one.  I think it's safe to assume that there is more here than meets the third eye.

If I were to try to describe my religion, the closest thing would be Pantheism (http://www.pantheism.net), combined with Taoism.

I also believe that God (or any concept thereof) is a myth.  But the funny thing is that this is OK.  I believe that "reality" is so far removed from human concepts such as "truth" that it doesn't matter in the slightest.  In fact, it's the other way around.  Reality is not entirely separate from consciousness.

I don't know what to believe anymore.

I'm quickly getting to the point where I no longer care whether there is a God or not.
It's like this:

If the Christians are right, then God, according to the bible, is cruel and unjust by nothing more than the facts in the Bible (there may possibly be more truth out there than what is presented in Christianity or the Bible)

Same with the Jews.

If the Muslims are right, then God is one sexist SOB, and doesn't care one whit about human life.

If the Buddhists are right, then it doesn't matter what I do, I'll be stuck in this repetitive hell until I figure out some big plan.

If the Hindu's are right, then all I have to do is take a bath in some muddy water somewhere in India and everything is cool, which doesn't make much sense to me.

All of them are faith based.
Some of them are based on a Universal Karma set (Eastern / Asiatic)
Some of them are based on a forgiveness set. (Judeo-Christian / Muslim)

Both of these ideologies have very series flaws with them

In the Universal Karma set of religions:
There is no right and wrong, and you should not stop wrong action when you see it because it is nothing more than Karma being played out.  This is a morally relativistic attitude which to me, personally, sounds wrong.  I do not think a diety that cared about us as people wants us to sit and watch as others are murdered, raped, plundered, and pillaged against by the more evil members of our race.

In the Forgiveness Based Religions:
You could end up with Hitler in heaven because he says, "Oh man, what a messed up thing I did, I am sorry"
You have no cycles of rebirth which to me doesn't make any sense.
It's a one shot in life and then boom, perfect bliss for all of eternity.
No matter the level of bliss... if it is for an eternity.... it will become a cage.

Both paradigms have serious problems
Both paradigms undermine the 'All Knowing, Caring, Loving creator"

I think they are all wrong, I don't know how wrong, and I don't know which is more right than the others, and I am fast approaching the point where it really no longer matters.

That pretty much sums up my theories.
I don't know; I don't care; It Doesn't Matter.

What matters is that I try and be a good person, put others wants & needs ahead of my own, try to treat others as I want to be treated, and if that's not enough, then I guess I get to burn.

I'm with you, Jessica. To use a buddhist concept, you make your own karma. In Christian terminology, it's treat others as you would be treated.

I flat don't believe in religion and, having grown up in an atheist family, have no belief in a god either. I do believe that it's important to do well and be a good person to others and to yourself. If people find it easier to do that by believing in a god, then more power to them.

The vast majority of religions seem to demand mindless obedience rather than thought and compassion, however.

Dennis

Thank you all for this interesting "thread."  I apologize in advance for my lengthy answer but you took your time to help me and I want to respond to each of you as honestly as I can.  People say "don't talk about religion" because it carries some risk -- hopefully, nothing will offend as I try to work things out in my mind.  Because "belief" or "faith" in religion (something scientifically unprovable so far) is an individual and subjective choice, I guess I knew I knew that it would be a literal miracle if I read a post here and something clicked and - bingo - I got religion.  But I hoped and, perhaps in time, something will click.  In the meantime...

JAMES - (1) A "spiritual journey"....yes, that's a good way to put it.  I guess I seem to be stuck on the spiritual highway onramp while others are cruising along, happy as clams.  They say "spiritual" people live longer - I'd like that but somehow haven't found the method to hang my problems and hopes on a god.  It would be comforting but there's a part of me that wonders if an inanimate object like a chair would hold my problems just as efficiently. (3) You say you can't answer why you believe.  Thanks for that honesty.  And, you're right.  Hitler did cause much grief. (4) You mention that, in the bible, "the chance of him writing wrong facts would have been quickly dispelled because many heard Christ's teachings."  While this is true, it's like "preaching to the choir" - the choir isn't going to disagree.  A written history by impartial people who don't believe would be more conclusive proof. Two other things -- the writing -- how many people, as the bible was being written, could read?  Also, the early printing presses would make mass dissimination to a variety of masses of different beliefs difficult.  Much of what gets passed on, I have a feeling, gets passed on by literate monks, one person to another.  What got saved was the bible.  What didn't get saved are writings that might disagree.  We'll perhaps never know.  I agree with you and others that the bible has many useful morality stories.  Thank you James for providing fruit for thought.

KIMBERLY - Yes, there is a certain "wolf leading the pack of sheep" attitude with religion and I understand your discomfort.  What's even more disconcerting is that some religious leaders have been arrested for sodomizing those sheep.  And even that - the pedaphile business - doesn't cause the Catholic church to re-examine itself as to whether priests should be allowed to marry.  As Dennis says, later on, the church seems to demand "mindless obedience."  I sometimes think of how the father in "Fidler On The Roof" was able to change and allow his daughter to marry despite "traditions."  Having non-questioning elders under the Pope is like having "yes men" on the board at Enron...sooner or later, something terrible may happen and you'll probably blame the wrong thing.

WENDY - (2) You state, "God will not accept any person that does not believe.  Being saved is the Grace of God and not an act earned by human judgement.  God saves us as a gift.  If you believe you are saved.  If you do not believe you are not saved.  Humans do not accept us if we are not like them."  If I believe, I will be saved.  Yes, I got that part.  The part about WHY I should believe something I can't prove - that's the hard part.  And there's no sense in God threatening me with Hell if I don't believe.  That's a bad argument, in my opinion.  Would anyone buy snake oil from a salesman if they said you'd go to Hell if you didn't buy it?  No, your logic would take over and say that this person is suspect.   I agree with you that the universe could be three dimensions or who knows what.  There is much unseeable and thus, so far, unprovable. (3) I agree that a person named Jesus existed in real life.  It's just the magical/spiritual stuff I have a problem believing.  I'm sorry that GLBT churches are usually Christian - I don't have FAITH that he was the son of god any more than there's a "holy ghost."  I'm not saying Jesus isn't the son of god.  I just want more proof than society just telling me, "believe."  It's hard to get there if you're suspicious and analytical.

CASSIE - I'm happy for you that God has been in your life from the beginning.  I grew up in an Episcopelian house and two of my four brothers are VERY religious.  My parents were not religious at all.  How two out of four ended up very religious is a mystery to me.  It's not that  I haven't tried.  I'm sure that if I'd have some of the visions that you say you have, it'd all be much clearer for me.  I'm not working now and it'd be very handy to know where my life may be going.  You say, "He always answers your prayers. You may not like the answer."  Heck, I'd settle for hearing any answer.  There is just silence.  You state that "You may not believe me."  It's not that at all -- I believe you believe.  Truly, I do.  I wonder how much of your premonitions are just that -- premonitions.  Whether you attribute them to faith or not, I believe that you do experience them.  Again, you're lucky.  The only time I ever had a premonition was selling all my stocks right before a huge stock market downward crash.  That, and not going down an empty excalator in San Francisco...a thug passed me because I turned away at the last second.  I followed a group down the escalator and, at the bottom, found him across the room, loitering.  His eyes met mine and I knew his aims were mean and vicious.  Maybe God clued me in, saved me.  I'll never know.  Cassie, you theorize that maybe your gift of premonitions may cause people like me to reconsider having faith.  Maybe.  There's a lot of unexplainable stuff in life. 

RANA - (1) Yes, I've heard the argument that the world's ills are God's test of us.  The philosopher Bertrand Russell said that "one can't sit at a dying child's bedside and believe that God exists."  My religious brother feels that "suffering exists because we are separated from Him" and that "love is not genuine until it is tested."  I understand that good qualities such as self-sacrifice, courage and fortitude could not be tested without angst.  I have to wonder, though, why such self-sacrificing, courageous and RELIGIOUS people such as the miners would die.  Either the world's ill's are God's test or they're random sad occurences that, due to free will, are not God's test. (2) You state, "I don't believe the Catholic church is bigotted."  I'm no expert but I thought the current Pope came out recently with an edict against the "gay lifestyle."  I've heard some priests offer that they'd love for gays to join their church.  For awhile I feel good, until they add, "so we can help them to change."  (3) Thank you for offering, "I believe that God exists, thou I would be lying if I said I dont have doubts & worries."  I guess few faith-based beliefs would be worth anything if there wasn't a questioning mind in behind it.  I unfortunately have more questions than belief at this point.

DAWN - (1) Thank you for your insightful comments of science versus religion.  I, too, believe that science is not a be-all, end-all.  There are too many times that science believes strongly that something is so (estrogen is good for the heart!) and then the truth ends up quite differently (estrogen bad!!).  I just kind of wish that the religious side of the equation was a bit MORE questioning, the way science is.  If science can be proven to be false, it would be nice if there was more doubt by religious people.  The Muslim "you'll meet 29 virgins in Heaven when you die" comes to mind....or that, by killing, "Allah is great."  I'm surprised that more Muslim extremenists don't just break out laughing when told such things. (2) I loved when you said, "On the other end exists the religions of the world which operate on faith only and it's curious that the central tenet of most of them is that you must not question that faith!  I don't have any use for any of them.  The Bible or Koran?  Just books."  You MUST NOT question faith.  Wow.  To not question definitely rubs against my not-faith-by-the-books nature.  The times I believe in a God are oddly when I'm FAR away from people and churches.  I look at nature and its intricacies and am dumbfounded.  Frank Lloyd Wright always capitalized the "N" in "Nature" because he felt God was there.  (2) Dawn, you mention, "There exists on the fringe an area called the paranormal, inhabited by ghosts and other unexplained phenomena, that science can't explain."  One of the most horrific movies I've ever seen was "Excorcist."  Given our limited knowledge, I don't discount that spirits or even an evil force can exist.  Strangely, it seems almost more plausible that evil spirits exist than good ones like God....maybe it's a reflection of my observation of miner families' unanswered prayers. (3) Dawn, you come closest to my feelings when you say, "I do believe in a higher power, but I don't have words to describe it. "  We differ when you state, "I do think you can ask for the strength to manage the difficult turns in your life but that is where divine intervention ends."  As I've stated, I'd love to ask for strength but, so far, the answer is no louder than the response I get from talking to an inanimate object like a chair.  I don't mean it as criticism - I just haven't learned to properly pray for strength.  Maybe someday, I will.

VERY KNAWTY - You state you believe "because I want to.  Because it made sense to me.  Because there's too much weird stuff in my life for it all to have happened by chance."  Later, you say, "I also believe that God (or any concept thereof) is a myth.  But the funny thing is that this is OK.  I believe that "reality" is so far removed from human concepts such as "truth" that it doesn't matter in the slightest."  I guess there are days I believe, then don't believe, too.  You feel that the "intelligent design" is flawed by the creation of man.  Others feel we'll go to eternal hell for our own incompetence to understand why God exists.  I wonder why the design doesn't allow some like me to believe fully?  I wonder, being I didn't design myself, why I'm to be sent to eternal Hell for my suspicious nature?  I know I have free will but why can't God give some of us slow learners some help?

JESSICA - (1) Many of your thoughts echoed my feelings and your insights and humor were very much appreciated...Hitler, in Heaven, apologizing to God, "Oh man, what a messed up thing I did, I am sorry"  Funny.  I'd often wondered what happened to those who recognize God's existance at the last moment before death.  Thanks for answering this lifelong query of mine.  (2) Thanks for taking me through the way different religions look at things.  You state, "If the Muslims are right, then God is one sexist SOB."  Again, very funny.  I agree with you that the Universal Karma seems cruel -- not seeking medical help because it's Karma -- not my cup of tea.  It's as illogical as the people who say, "God meant him to die."  Wow.  They're pretty good!  They're able to tell us what God wants?  Good trick.  Reminds me of the historians who write what was going on in the mind of Frank Lloyd Wright when he drew this line or that...the guy's dead and can't dispute it.  It'd be nice if you could have a scene like in "Annie Hall" where someone says, "God feels this way."  And up would step God and say, "You're totally wrong!  I never have felt that way.  You're just making this all up!" (3) You bring up an interesting point when you say that Heaven, "No matter the level of bliss... if it is for an eternity.... it will become a cage."  Realistically, people are so different.  Some like brussel sprouts, some don't.  There must be SOMEONE, sometime who, once in Heaven, decides he/she doesn't want to live forever.  And how can you have constant bliss without occassional sadness for contrast?  Is that possible?  You end your post by saying (I think quite eloquently), "What matters is that I try and be a good person, put others wants & needs ahead of my own, try to treat others as I want to be treated, and if that's not enough, then I guess I get to burn."  Sure would be nice, since the apparent God/man contract demands "absolute belief," if God would come down and give us a little help with that belief thing.  While constant bliss might become boring, that burning thing is incomprehensible to me.  Sending good people like my mom and dad to Hell for eternity seems far crueler than anything any mass murderer like Hitler or Stalin has done.  Who could think up something so cruel?  The test:  Do you BELIEVE, based on "faith," with no strong verifyable corroberated proof?...Putting my mom and dad in Hell for the terrible crime of uncertainty of faith would be murder.  But that's my belief.

DENNIS - You state that you're not a believer in religion and "The vast majority of religions seem to demand mindless obedience rather than thought and compassion."  Sometimes, I wonder if a con man were creating religion, would he create it any differently than now exists?  I mean, how do you get people to donate money to a church without offering them any traditional tangible product?  You threaten them with something untangible -- eternal Hell.  Wow.  And, like I said, if scientific writings of the past (flat earth) can be proven false, what proof, other than smoke, mirrors, expensive gold altars, praying and singing is there for God's existence?  I'm happy for those who feel that godly spirit - Heck, I'm jealous.  And, as you say, Dennis, "more power to them" - but where is God's compassion for the slow learner?  On death, believe now....or else!!  No wonder the "savages" in old California were scared when Father Serra's priests told them that.  I'd be, too.

Thank you all for helping me along with this spiritual journey.  Hopefully, things will make more sense in time.

Teri Anne

I have no problem believing that there is a higher power of some sort.  I also have no problem with using the name god for that higher power.  Its not "god" that worries me its "gods" followers!

All I know is that at the instant I pass on, somewhere in this world a little baby named Leigh will be born and she will not have to deal with the crap I did.

Leigh -
I know what you mean.  It seems that the very people who are taught in their commandments to not cast the first stone, to not judge, and treat others as you would like them to treat you are the very people who do judge and cast stones.  In Muslim countries, they don't just cast stones -- they literally kill women by stoning them to death for the horrific crime of talking to a non-Muslim man privately.  It takes a few hours for the kill.  I guess it's no different than the priests, in the old days, torturing "heretics" with pliers and the rack.  It would be nice if, at the front of Catholic churches and mosques, there were permanent signs saying that they were wrong and they are sorry.  And maybe the Pope could do more than apologize - He could say that priests who participated in those acts did not, in his opinion, deserve to go to Heaven.  If nothing else, it might make other religious people more wary of judging others.

I sometimes ponder how fate of where were born determines our happiness.  In some countries, men can be affectionate to one another,  Some countries even value women are plumper than our "value" system.  The American Indian culture accepted men who identified as both men/women.  It treasured them because they were considered valuable -- they could see both male and female sides of issues.  Alas, we're born here and now so, as you say, we can take happiness in the fact, if we're reborn, that we will not be different from others.  "Less crap," as you say, would be good.

hello agian.

First i want to say it has been a great pleasure being able to read your thoughts on Gods reality. It has been very interesting in the varying beliefs and lifestyles the beliefs lead to.

"Sure would be nice, since the apparent God/man contract demands "absolute belief," if God would come down and give us a little help with that belief thing" I just want to share a story about this comment that happened to me today.

I was in class "Christian Growth and Community" and our prof asked us what the gospal was and its meaning? The funny thing being all Christians in the class we all hesistated on answering question as we were trying to figure out if our answer was right in our minds. (I know I was) The gospal meaning the Good News I found it funny that our class was not confident in what they thought to be the Good News of the Christian faith. After some disscussion on its meanig ranging from freedom, to salvation our prof gave us the idea that the good news is Christ came to earth, not to take away our problems or do everything for us, but came to earth to "make the blind to see"(please parden the pun) to give freedom to those who are trapped.  You say it would be nice if God(s)/Godesses/higher power would help us out on earth I would suggest he did. Agian thats my belief.

Teri Anne i would like to let you into a little secreat amongst the Christian Church, We question God alot, well in my circle we do. I believe it is very healthy to question and futher more I believe God wants you to, Keep searching for answer as you are and i'm postive you will find answers.

P.S. I believe you are a much faster learning then most for you have learned to ask questions, a great virtue. keep it up.
From a caring brother James

QuoteAnd maybe the Pope could do more than apologize - He could say that priests who participated in those acts did not, in his opinion, deserve to go to Heaven. If nothing else, it might make other religious people more wary of judging others.

If the catholic church (it leaders) will not admit guilt in thier handling of the pedophlie priests what chance is there of this outcome?

QuoteThe American Indian culture accepted men who identified as both men/women. It treasured them because they were considered valuable -- they could see both male and female sides of issues. 

Terri and I are of native American ancestory.

Leigh

As a faintly off-topic aside, American Indians (or First Nations as they're called in Canada) are made up of many nations. Some did accept berdaches (two-spirited people), and others didn't and were as harsh as current mainstream North American culture is.

Dennis

QuoteI guess there are days I believe, then don't believe, too.

You misunderstand me, Teri.  I'm not saying that sometimes I believe in a higher power, and sometimes I don't.  Rather, I am saying that I believe in a higher power, but I believe that the higher power is merely a human concept.  In other words, the PHYSICAL existence of such a higher power becomes irrelevant, because to ME a higher power exists.

Or, to quote my favorite website, "Reality is a plastic ink-blot sort of thing that can be bent and twisted depending on your beliefs."

It would probably make more sense if you read this (http://users.aristotle.net/~diogenes/meaning1.htm), particularly this part (http://users.aristotle.net/~diogenes/meanmind.htm).

Quote from: Jessica on January 09, 2006, 12:42:24 PM
That pretty much sums up my theories.
I don't know; I don't care; It Doesn't Matter.

It sounds like you are an Apatheist (http://www.venganza.org/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3186).

QUOTE
An Apatheist, by definition, believes there might not be a God. However, he also believes there might be. The Apatheist really just doesn't care which. If there isn't a God, then there's no afterlife and all our Earthly accomplishments are meaningless. If there is a God, and we were doing sh*t he just didn't like, plus he had the ability to do whatever he please, he'd probably would come down from the sky and tell us to ->-bleeped-<-ing stop that. Seriously.  Since that has not happened, there's no real reason to believe that the human race, as a whole, is an affront to God. So until that happens, we should all just hang back and relax, and if we start pissing off God, we're pretty sure he'll come let us know about it. And if he doesn't exist, ->-bleeped-<- it, no one to offend. No big deal, right? Eh, whatever.

No, that really doesn't accurately describe my views, and if my post came across that way, I misscommunicated my spiritual beliefs horribly.

I believe the following:
1. I try and be a good person
2. I try and put others' wants and needs ahead of my own
3. I try and treat other people like I want to be treated.

Do I always succeed? No, and when I don't, I try and improve.

These beliefs don't depend on a God.

If there is a God, and he is not happy with how I have done, then some unknown thing will happen (come back as a dung beetle, roast in hell, etc...)

If there isn't, then people will still say that I was a good person, and that is always nice, whether or not I am around for it.

So the issue of 'Is There A God' has no bearing on my actions and overall, is really unimportant to me.

All I can do is try and be a good person as I perceive 'good'

Terri Anne,

For me, Cassie said it best.  I do not believe in God.  Rather, I know God is!

Organized religions are ways to share our stories of our experience with the Almighty.  Unfortunately, humans have a terrible tendancy to "transmogify" what the Almighty has said to suit personal thoughts and ideas.  What I have found is that the rituals in organized religion can help me pray.  Is it the ritual itself, no.  I would say its more like repeating a mantra and allowing the mind to go beyond the Here & Now. 

Is organized religion necessary to know God?  I would have to say yes, and this is why.  Humanity is a "story species."  That is, we share our experiences through stories.  Organized religions allow people to come together to share stories within an agreed-upon framework.  Keep in mind, that I am not specifying WHICH organized religion is Best or Right - that is a personal choice.  (added 1/11/06 - You don't need to have a massive infrastructure, like in the Roman Catholic church, to be organized.  If you have a group of people who share their experiences of the Almighty and do so in a common framework, I would call that an organized religion.)

Why do I know God is?  Because of my own personal experiences.  A double rainbow aching completly across the sky to brighten a terrible day.  Keeping my car from spinning off a bridge coated with ice.  Suddenly being "told" which way was home when "scud running" the weather.  Or keeping a sick engine running just long enough to get my wheels back on the runway.  And there are other expereinces that are very personal that I don't share often.

I am a scientist and a science teacher.  I find that i do not need to invoke miracles in my profession.  The universe is very orderly and logical.

nevertheless, I belive the following quote sums it up best - for me: 

All I have seen teaches me to trust in the Creator I have not seen.
- Albert Einstein (I believe)

Chaunte

hello!
I really enjoyed your explanation of organized relgions. It Gave me some stuff to think about. Thanks.
From a caring brother: James

Quote from: Chaunte on January 10, 2006, 09:41:37 PM... Organized religions allow people to come together to share stories within an agreed-upon framework. ...

Yes, but that, I feel, is a very good reason to run far from such things.

Preconceived notions are BAD when you are dealing with the unknown.

I imagine someone will ponder about 'God not being an unknown', but consider that you only know what you perceive and technically speaking you can't even be sure of that. Everything could be SO totally different than we think it is and we would not know. There could be no God in Heaven, no Sun in our solar system and so on. All of the events we find unexplainable can be explained in multiple ways. In essence anything you want to cite as proof isn't. (Because you can't be sure that what you cite actually is what you think it is.)

Go on, prove we're not on a Holodeck... or part of the 'Matrix' (gah what a confused move that lot was), or that we are just the dream of an intergalactic whale... So on and so forth.

I am a firm believer of giving credit where credit is due, and I'm afraid humans continually sell themselves short. I know there is something else out there, but I don't think it is what is defying the odds.

QuoteTerri and I are of native American ancestory.

Yeah but somehow we ended up growing up exposed to Anglo culture. unavoidable I guess, but thats ok, the Anglo culture needs a few blood thirsty woman warriors in fhier mdst, just to keep them aquainted with reality concerning the "weaker" sex and thier dispostion with being considered inferior, on any grounds.

Terri

I suppose if you asked me twice, I'd give two different answers, but here goes.  I regard God as being inherent in the way I view the world.  I subscribe to such quaint notions as truth and reality.  Some folks don't, opting for a basic view of the world as a brainfart of cosmic dimensions, some ludicrous, random moshpit of severed heads and burning garbage.  Not exactly my cup of tea, but it seems to get 'em through the day. ;D

If you want to see what sort of other answer I might give on a different occasion, try the following thread: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,81.0.html :)

-Celia

Dear all,
Thank you for all of your observations...

JAMES - Thank you for offering that you and your group question God and feel it's important to do so -- that it's part of being a good Christian.

LEIGH - Yes, the Catholics certainly have been doing a bad job of dealing with the pedophelia.  I think the most blatantly wrong thing they did was blame it on "homosexuality" rather than pedaphelia.  It's blaming the wrong group--who'd have thunk they could have done that with a straight face?  Thanks for offering that Terri and you are of American Indian ancestry.  Interesting!

DENNIS - I love the idea of the American Indian "berdaches" tho prefer the name "two spirits" - it sounds so poetic and wonderful and turns the angst and negativity into something so beautiful.

JESSICA - "Apatheist" - interesting.  I hadn't heard that term before.  Thanks!

VERY KNAWTY - I checked into the links that you mentioned.  Wow.  I pasted them into a permanent file I keep of what I feel are profound or insightful things.  I especially liked the talk on what purpose we have on earth - it stated that trees don't ponder such things - it's somehow liberating to stop pondering every now and then.  Thank you.

JESSICA - If only some self-professed Christians were as good as you are.

CHAUNTE - It's interesting that you're a science teacher and also have a strong belief in God.  Yes, I'd heard that Albert Einstein believed in God, also.  It's one thing that makes me STOP and think that, if he believed in it, then maybe there's something to this religion thing.  His belief is worth more to me than books of ancient writings. 

KIMBERLY - You and I agree that, just because society agrees on something, doesn't necessarily make it so.

TERRI - "Blood-thirsty women warriers?'  Lol - and here I thought the two-spirited people were just peaceful people who could mediate between different factions.

CELIA - That God is inherent in the world seems, to me, the opposite of "truth and reality."  I don't dispute that it may be so -- it's just that I'm not there yet.

MY (RELIGIOUS) BROTHER SENT ME HIS RESPONSE TO MY "SPIRITURAL JOURNEY" DISCUSSION.  HOPEFULLY, IT'LL BE OF INTEREST.  I ASKED HIM IF IT'D BE OKAY TO POST IT HERE AND HE SAID THAT WOULD BE FINE.  HERE IS HIS REPONSE, PASTED BELOW:

Hi Teri Anne,

I very much appreciate all the thought that went into your and other people's notes.  A lot of excellent questions were raised, and I found it very interesting to hear what other people who are not plugged into mainline Christian denominations are thinking.  It's great to start the New Year with such a healthy dialogue about such important matters. 

Your thoughts about your own spiritual journey (or quest?) are very interesting because I see many parallels with my own.  Though you probably wouldn't believe it, I too was quite a skeptic in my college days.  I hung around Christian people because their beliefs appealed to me.  But I kept telling them that I want to be convinced that it's true and not just wishful thinking. 

You mentioned that the most horrific movie you ever saw was "The Exorcist", and that you find that the existence of evil spirits is even more plausible than a belief in God.  I can distinctly remember walking on Corona del Mar beach at about 10 pm with a friend telling me all of his experiences with the occult.  Some of the stuff he told me sent shivers up my spine.  I've also heard that some very weird stuff happened during the filming of that movie, like sets collapsing and people dying.  It's almost like an evil spirit didn't want that film to be made.  I can't vouch for the accuracy of these reports, but they are not implausible. 

I very much believe that the existence of a devil very much explains the suffering in this world.  But I don't talk about it much because many people seem to think the devil is nothing but a joke.  I also believe the devil has been working overtime infecting a lot of the mainline churches, since his highest priority is to tear down religious people.  So, I wouldn't take too seriously the televangelist who called transgendered people "butchers of their own bodies".  I attribute a lot of the sick terrorism in the Muslin faith to the demonic too. 

You said a couple of times that, when you try to reach out to God, nothing happens.  I must admit that the two most dramatic answers to prayer I've had were my very first two.  I was a senior at U.C. Irvine wondering what life would bring after I graduated, and very worried about being drafted in the middle of the Vietnam war and not being able to get into grad school.   The morning that I arrived on a bus at the LA Induction Center for my Army physical, a strange peace overcame me as I looked out of the bus window at a beautiful sunrise.  By the end of the day I was classified 4-F.  Within a few days, I was accepted at the University of Toronto with financial aid, an added bonus I wasn't expecting. 

For some reason, my answers to prayer since then have not been so immediate or so obvious.  I still get that sense of peace from time to time, but a skeptic could easily explain that as psychological.  I certainly don't hear Him talking to me, as one of your responders named "Cassandra" said.  Not to doubt what she says, but my experience has not been that direct.  But, I've thought over the years, if my prayers were so immediately answered as my first two, God would become my "Cosmic Bellhop".  It's God who is calling the shots, and sometimes He answers right away, and other times He answers years and years later.  One much delayed answer was my prayer about getting married.  I remember one time getting so frustrated that I said to God: "Okay, I don't know if you're ever going to answer this one.  But I've decided that, like Job, I'm not going to renounce my faith over this".  Of course, by then I had completed seminary and had a very strong intellectual foundation for my faith.  Well, soon after that prayer, Wanda came along, and in retrospect, I realize that waiting to work out my issues has made our marriage much stronger. 

In any case, I've come to believe that anyone who believes that our contact with God is always very real underestimates how separated this world is from God.  Even the great Christian writer C.S. Lewis said, in his book A Grief Observed, that after his wife died, he tried to pray to God, but was confronted with "a door shut, and double bolted from the inside". 

After my prayer about getting into grad school, I was in Canada riding on a bus to a missionary conference.  It was snowing very hard and the busses were kind of going in a caravan.  In the seat behind me was a very joyful young woman who was engaged to be married.  When we reached our destination, we received some very somber news.  One of the busses (apparently behind us) had gotten into an accident.  This joyful woman's fiancé was killed.  But what absolutely appalled me was how people around me, including this woman, were saying it was God's will and that this fiancé is much better off in Heaven. 

That really bothered me for quite a while, but I guess I came to realize that these people believed this stuff much more than I did.  So, I went on the reading spree, trying to get my hands on every book I could about why Christians believe what they believe.  I found it all very interesting, but not convincing.  I'd dialogue about this with my housemates (who were all Christians) practically every night over dinner, asking them many of the questions you are asking.  One of them did say something to me that stuck.  He said, when evaluating the evidence for the resurrection of Jesus, we have to be very aware of our presuppositions   Many of us bring to that inquiry the presupposition that miracles are impossible.  So we're very likely to believe just about any explanation for the resurrection accounts other than that it really happened. 

Shortly thereafter I read C.S. Lewis' book called On Miracles, which convinced me that a disbelief in miracles comes from our Western naturalistic thinking that the universe is totally uniform, which can't be proven.  He also argued that, if the universe runs by very regular laws of cause and effect which are inviolable, then free will can't exist. 

But it all didn't come together for me until a couple of years later, after I'd returned to California.  One night I was watching a science show on TV with dad.  They went into some very complex stuff regarding Einstein's theory of relativity and atomic physics.  I was awed, and came away with a thought I hadn't had before.  The idea of a resurrection is no weirder that some of the things that scientists believe are true and have proven through scientific experiments.  Look at relatively: the faster you go, the slower time goes, and time would stop if you could move at the speed of light.  Isn't that bizarre?  Funny thing is I never said anything to dad about my thoughts because I didn't think he'd understand. 

So, as they say, the rest is history.  I will say that, from that walk on the Corona del Mar beach to watching that science show with dad, about six years elapsed.  So, the answers to these questions didn't come easy.  And some people never get there in this life.  What's going to happen to them?  Wanda and most Christian's I've spoken with don't agree with my view on this.  But I think God will give such people a second chance in Heaven if they've been searching, but have been distracted by all the devil's work here on earth.  I like to point out that no less a Christian than C.S. Lewis seemed to hold this view, and wrote a whole book about it called The Great Divorce.  I too am greatly troubled by the allegation that mom and dad might have gone to Hell.  But am comforted by the fact that, in the few conversations I had with dad about this towards the end of his life, he told me that he was not an atheist, just an agnostic.   He once said "there very well could be something out there". 

Is God going to zap us if we don't believe?  I don't think so.  And it's helpful to note that the Bible isn't talking about an intellectual belief, but more the desire to follow Him.  And it's not like He's being an egotistical despot for demanding that we follow Him.  Rather, He's the source of all life, and we are only derived beings.  For us to think that we can exist independently of Him on an eternal basis is like a vacuum cleaner that thinks it can get along without electricity.   

Again, thank you for your e-mail on this.  Sorry for the lengthy reply.  I haven't been able to address all the points that people made.  But there are two sermons I could send you, one on the resurrection and one on how we can believe stuff that happened long ago.  I also have one on intelligent design.  Let me know if you're interested in receiving any of these. 

I look forward to more dialogue.  May the Lord bless you in the New Year. 

Love
(my brother)

Dear Terrie Anne,

Thanks for this interesting thread and your comments.

When I read your comments I seem to have portrayed a "fire and brimstone" message.  Actually I do not believe in "fire and brimstone" but I do believe living creatures have an energy that is more than the chemicals that comprise their bodies.  Humans also have the mind to decide what makes sense to them.

Ancient scholars that wrote the bible used analogies and images that made sense to the people receiving the messages.  Hell is simply a spiritual state in which one prefers to be without God.  It is not fire and brimstone.

I can relate to Casandra's comments of God speaking to me and working miracles.  You might believe miracles are just coincidences.

When my oldest daughter was young she had a cranial tumor removed.  She woke up with half her face paralyzed.  The surgeon and I both cried.  The surgeon had not touched those facial nerves and had not seen facial paralysis in all his surgeries.  When I asked him what we should do he said we should pray.  We did.  When my daughter woke up again she had no paralysis.  Maybe we explain things we do not understand with God?  Maybe God is amoung us?

I do not have an ability to hear God or sense God's presence.  However when I was 9 years old my granmother (Nana) said goodbye to me when I was awake and she was no where to be seen.   My grandmother was a very religious woman that had the gift of prophesy and was close to me.  I was very scared at what happened and told my mom that Nana was about to die.  My mom assured me Nana was fine.  Later that evening we got a call that Nana had died unexpectedly of a heart attack at 63 years old.

We certainly have a spirit and we can not see it.  In addition logic, science and probably tells me that humans are not the highest intellience in the universe.  Again I have not seen these terrestrial creatures.  Trying to be a little less serious I ask, "Is God an alien?"

Terrie Anne,

I have been reading this post regularly. I find this a very thought stimulating post. I for one would be interested your your brother's other sermons to read. Please forword him my email so he can email them to me.

peggiannspal@yahoo.com

Smiles,
Peggiann

Teri-Anne, one thing I find difficult about your brother's acknowledgment of evil within the church (or whatever else you want to call it - discrimination, criminal conduct, etc), he then goes on the lay the blame on "the devil", rather than the church structure that encourages, ignores, or facilitates the activity in question. By that reasoning, a religion would never have to examine itself or its pretexts or its structures, because anything negative that flows therefrom is not the fault of the religion, but is blamed on anything external.

Dennis

Teri,
This is such an interesting thread, I am glad you have started it & am impressed with what I am reading here. Just some comments thou
I am Catholic and while I agree (generally) with what has been said about pedophilia, it hurts to read about comments that seem to define it as a problem for the Catholic Church as though every other religion is not infected (and I am sure this includes wicca & what are considered non organisied religions)- we all know this is not the case, dont we? I believe that the Catholic Church IS tackleing the problem - Pope Benedicts actions against gay priests is only part of his initiatives (maybe he thinks that any action is better than none? he is wrong in this - and anyway the Catholic Church has no objection to gay people its the "lifestyle that is against doctrine).
I am glad you included that post from your brother, it strikes many chords with me, you get any more, please post them too.
Dennis I think that post of yours about the Devil being a convenient scapegoat for wrongs in church structures is unfair- I am sure that you will be able to quote particular examples but that won't prove your point overall.  Any structure of man is inherently flawed and no matter with what good intentions it is started with - evil will creep in, its part of the human condition & must always be struggled against.
One last thing about pedophilia, why is it considered such an abhorrant act by society, yet why do fashions for children seem to becoming more blatently sexual - and that there is no real outcry against this

I have been following this thread from the start and have avoided jumping in. 

I am a Christian, I accepted Christ when I was 30.  So, I don't have church doctrine drummed into my head and am able to think and read the Bible for myself.

I have been with two missionary organizations, I will leave the names out for a reason.  I saw one president and founder run out by the board and have seen many people "wounded" and driven into dispair by these groups, they have "many" problems.  But even with their problems and lies, God still seems to be able to reach the people these groups reach out to. 

The missionary groups and the church seem to be good at killing their wounded.

Organized Churches have many problems because they look more to their "Doctrine" than they do the Bible.

This does not negate my belief in God.

Sarah L.

QuoteDennis I think that post of yours about the Devil being a convenient scapegoat for wrongs in church structures is unfair- I am sure that you will be able to quote particular examples but that won't prove your point overall.

It's not actually a point to prove. It's a fallacy in argument that I pointed out. The irrefutable premise. If you come up with a premise like, "Religion is good because it's about God" and counter any example to the contrary with "that's not God doing that, it's the Devil", then it's not a very convincing premise.

It's a species of the logical fallacy called "begging the question", where the truth of the conclusion follows from the truth of the premises because it is contained in the premises.

Dennis

Quote from: rana on January 17, 2006, 06:00:40 PM
Teri,

I am Catholic and while I agree (generally) with what has been said about pedophilia, it hurts to read about comments that seem to define it as a problem for the Catholic Church as though every other religion is not infected (and I am sure this includes wicca & what are considered non organisied religions)- we all know this is not the case, dont we?

I will agree that it happens in every religion or worship process.  However, I have never seen any publiction of this happening as many times by as many "reperesentatives of god" as with the Catholic church.  Combine that with the church actively working to hide the numbers of times this has happened, the attempts to declare bankruptcy to avoid payments of lawsuits, saying the assets of this diocese are seperate from that one--all of this leads me to believe the church itself is as guility as the individuals who committed the crime.

Quoteand anyway the Catholic Church has no objection to gay people its the "lifestyle that is against doctrine).

Oh, its ok to be gay just don't love someone physically?  How can someone be catholic if they do not practice the tenents of the church?

Quote
One last thing about pedophilia, why is it considered such an abhorrant act by society, yet why do fashions for children seem to becoming more blatently sexual - and that there is no real outcry against this.

why is it considered such an abhorrant act  

You've never been molested have you?

Clothing has nothing to do with rape.  To believe so is a fallacy. 

Leigh

Quote from: ranaOne last thing about pedophilia, why is it considered such an abhorrant act by society, yet why do fashions for children seem to becoming more blatently sexual - and that there is no real outcry against this

Just to state my position... I don't not believe in a god, supreme being, mystical force, or whatever, but I do have a view on the above quote.   Fashion has absolutely nothing to do with pedophilia and to use that as an excuse is itself inexcusable, and even abhorrent.  Generally speaking parents govern what their children wear in the pre-teen years and I'm pretty sure that they are not trying to invite some pervert to molest their children when they decide what they will wear to school.  To even suggest that fashion has anything to do with this is to say that the child was asking for it because of the way they were dressed.  Total BS

Enough of that.  There is absolutely "NO" excuse for pedophilia, period, so don't try.

Just my thoughts.

Steph

I think, to be fair, that Rana's statement was meant to be an expression of disapproval for children's fashions rather than an approval of pedophilia.

On a lighter note, a friend of mine is a principal at an elementary school. A teacher brought one of the grade six girls into her office because she was dressed in extremely skimpy clothes. My friend was trying to explain why you don't wear clothes like that at school and she said "look at me and Mrs. White, you wouldn't see us wearing an outfit like that at school, would you?". The girl looked at her in horror and said "Yes, but.....you're old."

Dennis

I agree Dennis that Rana did not appear to be condoning in anyway pedophilia but the two subjects are mutually exclusive and as such really should not be raised together.

I agree totally with Steph that fashion has nothing to do with pedophilia as there should be an ingrained reaction against pedophelia and for those who have not been ingrained there is never any possible excuse.

To continue on your lighter not however Dennis, unfortunately age does not prevent some from wearing fashions to young for them :)

Shelley

I guess this thread only goes to prove "Barrack Rules"  discussions re religion & politics should be banned as they always lead to trouble.  This is a pity as there can be really interesting discussions on them
Teri, up to now I have enjoyed this thread & was glad you posted it. But all I feel now is deep anger. People are entitled to their own opinions but after a while if feels like they are rubbing their take on things in other peoples faces (mine).
Leigh your post is aggressive & confrontational - Obviously you dont like the Catholic Church and are happy to go on about it - even thou what you are saying does not correspond to my reality. 
You know nothing about me - how do you know I havent been molested as a child. To make a statement like that in such circumstances is a truely insensitive act - and you rabbiting on about the insensitivity of men earlier.
Did your really think I was excusing rape by blaming it on the victims clothing.
Stephanie did you really think I was in any way condoning pedophelia - making excuses for it???
Dennis, obviously you are a lawyer- yes you were spot on, you would demolish me in any argument without a doubt - but still I think your statement was unfair.
I think I may give this topic a miss - my hide is getting too easily peirced these days :(

Quote from: Leigh on January 17, 2006, 08:48:03 PM
Clothing has nothing to do with rape. 

Dead on.  There is an issue here though and clothing is at the edge of it.  While clothing has nothing to do with rape or the sexual abuse of children, it is perhaps a symbol of a deeper problem in western society, the sexual objectification of women and young girls.  We are so immersed in this in-your-face sexism that we no longer seem to notice that ads frequently show scantily clad women next to fully dressed men.  Women and young girls are seen as objects of desire, body parts to be exploited, not living breathing feeling individuals.  Do you think they'll ever make movie about three guys in Speedos called Charlene's Angels?  I rather doubt it. 

I didn't read any implication into Rana's post but this is an issue that should be handled very carefully since the argument of clothing has been used by too many rapists (one is too many) as an excuse for their violent behaviour.

Dawn

Rana, I will temper what I said with the statement that I think religion is a matter of faith, not logic. As is belief in God.

Nothing negative about believing in a god or having a religion, I just get irked when people try to logically justify it. It's faith, not logic. You believe or you don't. Same with any spiritual aspect. A little like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. You can't try and logically convince someone that something or someone is beautiful.

Dennis

Rana

If there was anything I posted about the churches stance on priests, pedophillia and hiding their assets that was wrong I will apologise in the largest font avaiable.

You are correct.  I know nothing of you or your life situations, past or present.  The way you stated the question about society and clothing is why I posted my inquiry in the form I did.

Leigh

Quote from: RanaStephanie did you really think I was in any way condoning pedophilia - making excuses for it???

Rana, I was in no way insinuating that you approved/condoned pedophilia.  My post was not directed at you but referred to the statement itself on clothing.  I re-read my reply, and i could see where you may have thought it was directed at you.  It wasn't.

I'm sorry if you took my reply that way, it was not intended, and I apologize if I caused you any hurt.

Steph

My, this thread has run off on an unpleasant tangent. :eusa_eh:  Pedophilia is an appalling phenomenon.  Is there any serious debate about this?  No one here is calling anyone else a pedophile.  Agreed?  Arguments about deviant inclinations and behavior are far off topic for this thread.  Shall we put this train back on its track? ::)

-Celia

Quote from: Dennis on January 18, 2006, 08:27:05 AM
Rana, I will temper what I said with the statement that I think religion is a matter of faith, not logic. As is belief in God.

Nothing negative about believing in a god or having a religion, I just get irked when people try to logically justify it. It's faith, not logic. You believe or you don't. Same with any spiritual aspect. A little like beauty, it's in the eye of the beholder. You can't try and logically convince someone that something or someone is beautiful.

Dennis

The way I see it faith is very logical. The why of people wanting to believe I'll agree is not logical, but faith itself seems quite logical. I understand why my grandfather believes for instance, it is quite logical and I see his point. Events of our past shape us after all and too much of what life is does not neatly fit into the scientific explanation we are given. For instance, how do you explain surviving time after time when you should have died? After a while, the odds simply do not fit the probable explanation so we look for a more probable explanation to explain the events.

Certainly this does not describe the process all people find faith but it does happen for some it would seem. So perhaps we should say that some people's faith is logical? ^*shrug* Ultimately it does not matter, of course.

Regardless though, I'll continue to wonder if there is such a thing as blind faith... from what I have seen people do not do things without reasons and I see no reason why faith would be any different.

I don't know exactly what I believe. but I try to keep my faith in God, because to me, I have a little hope that God can help me.

but I believe some religions have got to radical on things like marriage and homosexuality.

If what the bible says is true, then we were put here for a reason too, and it's not to torture the "unsinful" people. Now by unsinful, I don't mean they never sin, I'm talking about the heteorosexuals...

I don't know why I'm here, and I'd really like to know... :-\

QuoteShall we put this train back on its track?

Good suggestion Celia,

QuoteI don't know why I'm here, and I'd really like to know

Me too.

Shelley

I was going to walk away from this thread but have come back because I have been bothered and depressed - it always happens when my brain finally kicks in.
I remember watching a TV Motoring show where a lesson was, if somthing stressful happens - like maybe a wheel falling off on a lonely road, sit down brew a pot of tea & then consider the problem.
Leigh, Stephanie & Dennis I apologise - not for my convictions & opinions, but for my behaviour.  Rana has been out & about for a bit over a year now, and when I listen to that aspect of myself I am a calmer, more logical & nicer person (truely :) ).  Trouble is I have to work at it, easy enough when I think, but difficult if things happen quickly. Like rana does not make me a more sensitive person, just makes me realise what an insensitive selfish yob I have been & can still be.
Leigh, I am especially sorry, I was accusing you of a failing of mine - and to cause you pain, it was a particularly bitchy thing to do :(  I can & will argue about your take on the Catholic Church - but in a dispassionate & logical manner hey :)
Stephanie, it would have helped if I had taken the time to read your post carefully - I took it completely wrongly.
Dennis, I dont think I insulted or hurt you - I did not mean to if I did,  I like to argue, in a nice way of course :)  and can appreciate someone who argues well.
This is a good thread - it should continue & I will try to live up to it :)
.

Not in the least bit insulted, Rana. No worries and glad to see you back in the thread.

Dennis

We all have our moments Rana. None of us is without sin. Welcome back to the thread.

Cassie

Hey Rana, don't fret just remember rule 15. "You may challenge the issue, but never the person."  And as you have found out we often vigorously challenge the "issue".  The forums would be a very dull place if we all agreed with each other all the time :)  Just give it as good as you get.

Steph:)

hello.
  This response is directed more at Teri Anne for a comment she responded to me with awhile ago on page one. Though this is directed towards her I do wish that all may get something out of it. My apologies.
  This thread has been terrific to read and follow. I have enjoyed much of the comments said and I just want to say that i'm learning alot. So thanks to everyone for writting. Here I go:
    "You mention that, in the bible, "the chance of him writing wrong facts would have been quickly dispelled because many heard Christ's teachings."  While this is true, it's like "preaching to the choir" - the choir isn't going to disagree." (pg 1, para 2, question 3) Teri Annes second response

I was doing some reading in this area and I just wanted to share this information with you. Till about roughly 40 A.D. information was passed on through oral transmission so people of this time would have had great listening skills for it was how they learned since most could not read or write. This would lead to two factors: (1) his deeds and words would have spread by word of mouth (2) "his teaching would have been subject to reminiscence and recitation by those closet in his work" (pg 67 of the book)  What would this say? Because people didn't have it writtin down till later they would have had it memerised and would have been commonly discussed amongnst the Jews.

The second point about "preaching to the choir" Christ was faught agianst on many occasions and condemned as a heritic. Not all agreed with him. In the Gospals it is the pharieses and the teachers of the law (those who knew the whole Hebrew bible) disagreed with some stuff he did and accused him of herasy though not all did. (ex: healing on the sabbath, working for the devil, not obey the laws etc.. there in the gospals)

The source I used was the bible and "Introducing the New Testament" by Paul J. Achtemier, Joel B. Green and Marianne Meye Thompson.

I hope this helps alittle but I encourage you to read over the Gospal of "Mark" and see if Jesus was "preaching to the choir". If you have already I would say do it agian with this in mind. Again I apologize for being so late to respond to something written so early. I would ask that you would give me your feed back on this, I would appricaite that very much.
From a caring brother: James 8)

Hi everyone.  I've enjoyed reading the "thread" - it's interesting where things can go when you get a group of people together...

WENDY - Thanks for clarifying that hell, to you, isn't a fiery place but is, instead, existence without God.  I still wonder why that has to be an eternal existence without Him if you happen to, on this earth, be a doubting Thomas or Teri.  And, it would seem, to me, that gullible people would have an advantage in having faith (NOT that I'm saying that religious people are gullible).  Regarding your vision of your Nana passing away and you feeling that she was saying goodbye -- a close friend of mine had the same experience.  I don't doubt that there are dimensions which we can't imagine.  Einstein theorized some of them and yet remained religious.

PEGGIANN - I'm glad you and my brother connected and that you received some of his sermons.  One thing I like about my brother is that he, despite his love of writing sermons (he delivers them occassionaly to the homeless in shelters), he's not what you'd call "preachy."  He doesn't have a holier than thou attitude and just simply gives his take on things.

DENNIS - Like you, I feel that blaming wrongdoings on the devil is kind of a cop out.  When non-religious people do immoral things, they usually don't blame things on the devil.

RANA - I'm sorry that we got into pedophelia but I guess it just kind of happens because it's such a big news event in the Catholic church.  Like you, I know that it goes on in other churches.  And obviously non-religious people can be into pedophelia.  You mention that the Catholic "Church has no objection to gay people - its the "lifestyle" that is against doctrine.  If the doctrine says that being gay or having a "gay lifestyle" is bad, I guess I'll have to disagree -- not that the church or you don't have just as much a right to disagree with me.  As many gay and transsexuals say, I don't ask that you agree with me, just that you respect me and my right to have a choice. 

SARA LOUISE - You mention, "Organized Churches have many problems because they look more to their "Doctrine" than they do the Bible.  This does not negate my belief in God."  I'm not sure I understand...are you saying that the doctrine and bible are in disagreement?  Shouldn't both profess the same ideologies or rules?  Pardon my question...I'm not that literate in terms of religious things.

LEIGH - Yes, it sure seems like the Catholic church is plagued with pedophelia.  I've wondered, if they let priests marry, whether that might bring in a lot of more average people.  To me, it's asking a lot for anyone to give up marriage and devote themselves wholy to God.  I realize that that's part of the doctrine but I note that many things that people now consider silly have been eliminated from religious actions...why not eliminate the no-marriage provision?  And, were I to have my way, I'd allow gay marriage, too, but that just shows how "twisted" I am!

STEPH -  I agree that clothing has nothing to do with pedophelia or rape.  Unfortunately, it never stops rapist from proclaiming, "she was asking for it."

DENNIS - Your story about the principal and the girl was very funny! ("Yes, but [you wear boring outfits because] you're old").  It reminded me of how a principal friend of mine mentioned that, at his school, he's sent some girls home when they dress too provocatively.  This reminded me of how girls in high school back in the '60's were reprimanded when they wore short skirts.  The principal would have them bend their knees on the floor and measure from the knee up to the skirt.  As a kid, I was sometimes in wonder at how girls could wear short skirts on freezing days (well, as freezing as southern Calif. gets, lol).

SHELLEY - You mentioned how "age does not prevent some from wearing fashions too young for them."  When I was transitioning, I noticed some TS's wearing outfits that were, in my opinion, too young for them.  I probably went the other direction, wearing things that were too dull.  I wanted like heck to fit into the look of average women my age.  I was so strict with myself that I had to give myself permission to wear something fun.  These days, my best friend still chides me, "why don't you wear something more feminine?"  At times, I do.

RANA - I'm sorry that the "thread" started making you sad.  And, again, am happy you decided to rejoin the "thread."  I feel the others were just trying to express their opinions and am sure that nothing was intended to be personal.  But I guess it's like people arguing, on television, whether transsexualism is an illness.  Even though they are not referring to me, specifically, it nevertheless is a bummer to be hearing such a conversation.  Even if there is one guy on TV arguing my side, it makes me sad to be hearing negative things like "people who do SRS, are butchering themselves."  I empathise with you and can understand why such discussions can make you sad.  And such discussions don't deal with my need -- to hear aloud why some people have strong beliefs in God.  Again, it would be my hope that something said here might click me into the "believer' column.

DAWN - I like, though you were joking, your idea of a Charleen's Angels show with three guys in Speedos.  I wish that guy's clothing was a bit more interesting...three guys in nearly-identical tuxes is, for me, kinda boring.  I think back to Elizabethan times when men's clothes were frilly and, dare I say, peacockish.  Then conformity and business blahs came in and that style has lasted centuries.  And if any male exudes any sense of style, they're considered, oh my gosh, gay.  I think the three guys in your show, Speedos or not, would be suspect.  They'd have to act very macho-ish and rough to shake homophobic suspicions in the U.S.

DENNIS - Though faith is seemingly illogical, I still wonder at scientists like Einstein having strong religious beliefs.  What did he know that I'm not seeing?  I agree with you that "You can't try and logically convince someone that something or someone is beautiful."  I've faced this in trying to find music for television shows -- the hardest thing is to get a group of people to agree on one piece of music.  Amazingly, though, a LOT of people seem to agree on this God-thing.  I keep pondering, as I said above, what they see that I'm not seeing.

CELIA - You state that "arguments about deviant inclinations and behavior are far off topic for this thread.  Shall we put this train back on its track?"  Sure, that'd be neat.  The track I'm looking for is the one down that dark tunnel into that bright light.

KIMBERLY - You mentioned, "How do you explain surviving time after time when you should have died?"  The agnostic would say that it's coincidence or luck.  When I started this post,  I wondered how people can attribute survival of disaster as God's doing.  There was a lot of that after 9-11.  I felt sorry when a VERY religious person died...it seemed contradictory.  Some used the argument, "It was his time."  I didn't understand that, either.  None of this is to say you aren't right.  I just notice some contradictions and this confuses me.

VICTORIA - You mention, "I don't know why I'm here, and I'd really like to know."  A previous post led me to a website that stated that trees and flowers don't have to have an all-compelling reason for being.  Perhaps, as humans, we're being egotistical to imagine that we have a reason to be here.  Maybe we, like the trees and flowers, are just here.  A further extension might be that we're here because God likes looking down on the trees, flowers and humans.

STEPH -  "The forums would be a very dull place if we all agreed with each other all the time."  That reminds me of the Twilight Zone where "Number 12 looks just like me."  Yes, no one can accuse us of being "Stepford Wives," lol.

JAMES - I'm happy that you've been enjoying the "thread."  I certainly have, too.  You mention, "Till about roughly 40 A.D. information was passed on through oral transmission."  You further state, "Because people didn't have it written down till later they would have had it memorized and it would have been commonly discussed amongnst the Jews."  I'm sure you're aware of a term "group think."  It's when a group of people agree on something that may or may not be true.  That could have happened with the Christian stories.  And, as I mentioned, passing stories by word of mouth can be totally wrong -- the latest example is when a miner was misheard and everyone thought the "12 miners are alive!"  Again, I would prefer that, ideally, something that people value so strongly as religion should be backed with written corroberating stories by impartial reporters.  You state that "Christ was fought against on many occassions and condemned as a heretic.  Not all agreed with him."  I'll take your word that many disagreed with Christ when he was alive.  This I don't dispute. Yet, somehow today, we only hear of the Christian side.  That He died for us, that son of God. 

I will admit that my questioning doubtful side has trouble whenever a martyr is involved.  John F. Kennedy was a great president but I remember, before he was killed, that many were unhappy with him.  Now, he's like a Camelot god.  Were Marilyn or James Dean truly worthy of being THE female and male icons of being an Hollywood movie star? (Don't believe me?  Check out the stores on Hollywood Boulevard selling Marilyn and James Dean statues, posters and other assorted junk).  Did Martin Luther King or Ghandi ever have a day when they felt like punching someone?  Sometimes, in war movies, I've heard an actor comment, "We can't kill him -- it'll turn him into a martyr." 

I know the bible intimates Jesus wasn't perfect but his death certainly couldn't have been more icon-creating than if a Hollywood screenwriter had written it.  I can't imagine a more excruciating death.  Or, if you want to be a contrarian, a more "perfect" death that destined millions of people to believe.  It is that perfect martyrdom, ironically, that makes me doubt Christ as son of God above all else.  If it weren't so perfect, I'd have a lot easier time believing.

None of this is to say that I don't believe SOMETHING is out there.  When you look at the perfection of the inside of our bodies or the inner workings of a tree or flower, my inclination is that SOMETHING came up with these intricacies.  Some of you talk of chance of surviving disaster as proof of religion.  I prefer to think of the logic necessary for us to have hearts, livers, lungs, veins, fingers, brains.  That  "intelligent design," in my opinion, logically cannot be a random occurance.

Teri Anne

Quote from: Teri Anne on January 22, 2006, 12:23:21 AM...
I don't doubt that there are dimensions which we can't imagine.
...

If it is of any relevance such occurrences are NOT limited to the death of humans.

Quote from: Teri Anne on January 22, 2006, 12:23:21 AM...
...Amazingly, though, a LOT of people seem to agree on this God-thing.  I keep pondering, as I said above, what they see that I'm not seeing.
...

By the by, people agree on the 'god thing' because they listen to the same stories and consequently have the same frame of reference. Just because a lot of people thought it was a purple elephant that ran though town does that make it so?




There was a mention of fashion... well it's not relevant but once I'm situated the last thing I'm going to be concerned with is what society thinks I should wear (=

Quote from: Teri Anne on January 22, 2006, 12:23:21 AM...
KIMBERLY - You mentioned, "How do you explain surviving time after time when you should have died?"  The agnostic would say that it's coincidence or luck.  When I started this post,  I wondered how people can attribute survival of disaster as God's doing.  There was a lot of that after 9-11.  I felt sorry when a VERY religious person died...it seemed contradictory.  Some used the argument, "It was his time."  I didn't understand that, either.  None of this is to say you aren't right.  I just notice some contradictions and this confuses me.
...

But the fun part is I am not necessarily attributing the impossible (or just improbable) to God, Goddess or anything else other than us.

I think it is hogwash to attribute everything we cannot readily explain to any given thing.

Still how do you describe something that is simply to improbable to be ?

Quote from: Teri Anne on January 22, 2006, 12:23:21 AM...
I can't imagine a more excruciating death.
...

I can.

Quote from: Teri Anne on January 22, 2006, 12:23:21 AM...
None of this is to say that I don't believe SOMETHING is out there.  When you look at the perfection of the inside of our bodies or the inner workings of a tree or flower, my inclination is that SOMETHING came up with these intricacies.  Some of you talk of chance of surviving disaster as proof of religion.  I prefer to think of the logic necessary for us to have hearts, livers, lungs, veins, fingers, brains.  That  "intelligent design," in my opinion, logically cannot be a random occurance.

Teri Anne

I believe there is something out there as well, and that humanity hasn't a conscious inkling of what.


The best advice I can give is to ignore what everyone else wants you to think and to believe and go for a quiet walk and listen to your heart... If you feel like listening anyway, there is certainly no obligation (that I am aware of) to in this life. (=


Mind you, I could be quite clueless ^*wink* (=

hello!
I just want to thank you Teri Anne for your response I very much enjoyed it. Though there is once sentance I do not understand and I would ask if you could further explain it to me.

"I know the bible intimates Jesus wasn't perfect but his death certainly couldn't have been more icon-creating than if a Hollywood screenwriter had written it"

The word intimate means:
Marked by close acquaintance, association, or familiarity.
Relating to or indicative of one's deepest nature: intimate prayers.
Essential; innermost: the intimate structure of matter.
Marked by informality and privacy: an intimate nightclub.
Very personal; private: an intimate letter.
Of or involved in a sexual relationship    (dictionary.com meaning)

I'm sorry I don't understand what you are trying to say? Also do you mean the bible does not portray Jesus as perfect or The bible does?

Thanks again
From a caring brother: James

The second meaning of the word intimate is:

   1.  To make known subtly and indirectly; hint.
   2. To announce; proclaim.

Steph

thank you Stephanie!
James

Thanks, Steph...that's just what I meant...the Bible INFERS that Jesus wasn't perfect.  And none of us with skin, brains and bones are perfect.  And, given God's knowledge that the creatures he created aren't perfect, you'd think He wouldn't be such a hardliner about wanting us to unquestionably believe in Him (or you'll go to hell).  My (religious) brother thinks that it's not as black and white as many suggest.  He thinks if you are OPEN to accepting Him, that's all that's required.

But the whole scenario could be a myth.  Especially if it turns out that Jesus was not son of God - that he was a hoax.  As I've said, it's surprising to me that people accept so readily something written soooo long ago as, er, gospel.  People today are suspicious of Popes, presidents and physicians.  We've seen them correct themselves (remember the last Pope apologizing for what his church did during the Nazi era?).  Why is it so inconceivable that Jesus was just a nice guy who loved God and wanted to make the world a better place?  We know some people pretend to be what they're not...why are so many people CONVINCED and certain that Jesus was what he claimed to be?  And I'm sure you all have heard the argument that if religion didn't exist, humans would have invented it.

Maybe it's like love...you can't explain why you love someone.  You just do.

And it's a lot easier to fall in love with someone you haven't met.  It happens all the time on the internet love sites.  Then you meet them and they don't turn out to be what you thought.  Well, we can't personally meet Christ so, in a sense, he's easier to love.

And yet plenty do.  On FAITH.

Teri Anne

QuoteWhy is it so inconceivable that Jesus was just a nice guy who loved God and wanted to make the world a better place?

Teri,

The Romans were meticulous record keepers. Especially when it comes to trials and executions. The man we know as Jesus was well documented as far as the events of the cucifixion are concerned. If you know anything about crucifixion then you know that he was more than just a nice guy. If you've seen Mel Gibsons The Passion you have some idea of what this entails.

Knowing about the trial the scourging and the crucifixion itself you have to ask yourself if you were going around claiming to be the son of god just to make people nicer to each other could you suffer the agonies involved in this process without saying. Whoa fellas, I was just making it all up. He had multiple opportunities to say so. Pilot scourged him to satisfy the Jewish leaders and was going to turn him loose, but the Jewish leadership wouldn't have it as long as he stuck to his claim.

Most people under those extreme measures would confess to  anything you wanted them to rather it was true or not. He didn't, So if he wasn't the son of god, he certainly believed he was. If he only believed he was then it would have been easy to accept the role of leader of the jewish people and lead a rebellion against the Roman occupation. There were only  a hundred soldiers there at the time. He did not.

Cassie

Something else to keep in mind is how people are taught religion.

Human beings are an interesting lot. Tell us something is enough times and we'll eventually believe it. (see advertising) Tell us something we'd like to believe and show us (or if we are industrious we'll go off and find it ourselves) some 'proof' that happens to fit in with what we are trying to say is fact....

The problem is either setup clouds what might be.

When you put blinders on do you call yourself an explorer? Do you trust someone who has blinders on?

Certainly what transpires can be for the exact reason they say, but then again it might not be. When they no longer look at the other reasons do you trust their judgment? Do you trust their faith?

That is kind of the sticky part of the situation. Do you trust others to use their experiences as a base to build your understanding from?

What happens when you decide you do not trust the well meaning nice people? From where I sit I've seen a number of things that just do not sit right. Hell? Honestly, no one actually believes in a fire and brimstone place with a nice satyr in it? Alright, and you believe it exists... WHY? The why of the matter is the root of the issue. Why do you believe, why do you think that and take it all the way down until there is no more answers and see what you get.

Every religious person I've ever cared to ask has always assured me that they have really thought the situation through.

So have I. Why is it my blank slate take at it doesn't look at all like what everyone else sees?

Do you know where your blinders are?

Something else to keep in mind that records should not be trusted.

How pristine are those records? How many times were they doctored? When Pilate says, you do. It's the same garbage we have today. WMD? Um, yea sure.

It is prudent to make sure you can trust the source before you trust what it tells you.

[edit]Pilate, not Pilot[/edit]

Historians and archeologists are quite satisfied with the validity of the record. Crucifixion was quite common with the Romans. There would be little reason to "doctor the records of a crucifixion of a (to the Romans) minor player in Judea. The Curcifixion of Christ is a fact. That he never recantd his position is a fact. The point is would anyone go through that willingly.

It was couple several hundred years after the fact that Rome adopted Christianity and established the papacy. Doctoring the record at that point would have been found out by archeologists evne if it occured a hundred years later. The documents are genuine. Unless you want to make the claim that someone doctored them at the time they were written. If so who and for what reason? People claiming to be messias were all over Judea. Why doctor the record on this one?

No other self proclaimed messias were crucified. Why this one? Because he was a greater threat to the political establishment than anyone who had come before. It was a political hot potatoe. Pilot had to maintain control of the situation and so took extreme measures to show the folks in Rome that he was a capable governor. Like any politician he had political enemies and there was a lot of correspondence on the matter. There is little reason to question the historical record on the basic facts.

Cassie

Teri, I have just got to reply to your post.  A problem is that I dont want to write screeds of stuff & bore everyone to tears _ I will be overbrief and if necessary go into detail later (maybe :)  ).

By the Bible I assume you mean the New Testament - The Gospels & The Acts.  
In truth I cannot remember any place where it is infered that Jesus was not perferct.  Jesus was the Son of God but he was also a man, - is that what you ment Jesus was not perfect because he was also a man? I guess if you only think of Jesus as a well meaning human, then I guess you would be correct - problem is to us who believe he is more than just a man - so you see; irreconcible differences I will never convince you and you will never convince me.

I think it would be very hard to accept that Jesus was a hoax.  Do you feel the same way about Mohammed, or Buddah? they could be hoaxes as well :)
Cassandra has made a good point re the existence of Jesus - there are others.

Pope John Paul apologised for many wrongs that were done by the Church - the Crusades, treatment of the Jews, the Schism between the Eastern & Western churches.  In truth to do that was a tremendous thing he was a brave & saintly man, but the way you write it - it seems like caught in the act of doing somthing wrong? - am I reading this right?  Also, wtf did the Catholic Church do in the Nazi era? I cannot recall any apologies re that.  Please don't say stand back & do nothing - everybody stood back & did nothing all churches, all leaders - before the war people seemed to think Hitler was an all right guy, and the abominations that the Nazis did were not immediately apparent.

I am one of those people convinced (I have said I have doubts & worries) - how did I get that way? well I did not blindly accept - its a process of thinking & reading & studying.  
You may well  be right that religion is a thing that that humans would feel the need to invent - but you put all religions on the same footing.  Aztecs had a religion, voodoo is a religion the Celts & Germans had religions.  (thou the Germans accepted Christianity before really the Romans did maybe they could see the message there).

Finally , it will always be a matter of Faith - its an individual thing for each person do decide on.  thats not a weakness
Bummer, its too late at night to write a smooth readable post, I apologise if I seem disjointed here, not to worry you can see where I am coming from :)

CASSIE - As I've said, I DO believe someone named Jesus lived and he died on the cross.  So, Roman records of his death are good but don't get to the heart of the matter:  Was he REALLY THE son of God?  I've also considered that we are ALL the sons and daughters of God - so Jesus calling himself "son of God" is essentially the same thing that we all do.

There are crazy people in the world who claim far more than being son of God.  Many leaders feel they are God's instrument on earth and can do no wrong.  To their dying days, they presume they, themselves, are God-like.  You say that because Jesus was tortured, he could have confessed he wasn't what he claimed.  Perhaps he sensed he was going to be killed anyway (because he was a danger) and there would be no point.  It wouldn't have been hard to figure out that, as a martyr, he would be even more famous.  This is the wonderful thing about an past without impartial reporters - you or I can make up whatever inferences or reasons we like...and there is no real way, short of our own death, of finding out the truth.

When I think of religion, I sometimes ponder magicians who can make things SEEM real but are not.  It would be a terrible shame if organized religions were just stories and gods and ghosts made up to make some sense of that eternal question, the meaning of life.

KIMBERLY - You wrote:  "Every religious person I've ever cared to ask has always assured me that they have really thought the situation through. So have I. Why is it my blank slate take at it doesn't look at all like what everyone else sees?"

Me, too.  No matter how hard I try, my "belief" slate in any of the organized religions is blank.  Maybe the ancient people who looked up and saw gods in the stars had the right idea.  God, or gods, are in nature and in the ever expanding universe.

Teri Anne

I was inferring that it was possible that the documents in question could recount less than accurate events.

Note that I am not saying the documents are anything other than what they are thought to be.

Though I've said a few times that I long for impartial reporters' view of Jesus as son of God, in truth, when someone makes such a claim, there is no way any reporter could prove or disprove it.

The best way to prove to myself would be for me to be there and experience it.

Let's say I was standing nearby as Jesus was being killed, The first thing is that I'm going to be disgusted and terribly sad that a kind and caring person is being killed in a barbaric manner.  The one thing I can't tell by standing there are what Jesus' motivations were about anything.  I know from being around him, listening to him talk, that he's a good person.  And now, I hear him telling me and others that he's dying for us but to believe that requires me to believe he's actually the son of God.  How does one believe something so amazing?  People lie.  Why not this man?  I wish I could tell.

Even being there is no proof.

Teri Anne

hello!
  I just want to say thanks for all the posts people have been posting it has been a great plesure to read them and think about what they had to say.
  Cassandra I want to say thanks for bringing the point across clear that Christ did die on the cross and that it has been accepted as common truth. Also rana thank you for clearify that the bible does say christ was perfect. I apologize for any mis-conseptions I may have wrote. I meant to say that many people challanged him but could find no fault in him. (according to the gospels)
  Teri Anne about you quest for another impartial historian I would recomend the writtings of Josephus. Though if you deciede to look into it I have heard that there has been some christian mis interperation going around what he wrote but many scholars have accurently corrected his writtings, just be aware of the book you choose. I"m currently skimming through a book called "Josephus and the New Testament" by Steve Mason and it seems pretty good. Chances are he won't offer you all you want to know but he can help you gain a better understanding of The New Testament Times.
  Another thing about the oustide reporters would be that Romans did not really care what happened in Palistine. Your chances of finding a solid Roman Historian will be pretty low. Josephus was a Jewish Historian who I believe if i'm correct was Post-Christ's life yet Christ is mentioned in some of his writings.
  Some other suggested readings would be the book of Luke in the NT because it is seen by scholars as a Historical Narative or you could get some readings on Apologetics (logical arguments of the NT)
  You say also that Christ could have lied yet he was  good guy. C.S. Lewis wrote this "Christ is either a nut job or the son of God he can not just be a nice guy" His reasoning is he said he was the son of God and his teachings are very radical for their time. If possible think about this quote I would love to hear how you veiw Christ. Thanks!
I hope this helps you find some of the answers you are looking for. As I said earlier keep looking for answers and i'm sure your going to find something.
God bless
James

Quote from: Cassandra on January 24, 2006, 04:49:56 AM
Historians and archeologists are quite satisfied with the validity of the record. Crucifixion was quite common with the Romans. There would be little reason to "doctor the records of a crucifixion of a (to the Romans) minor player in Judea. The Curcifixion of Christ is a fact. That he never recantd his position is a fact. The point is would anyone go through that willingly.

It was couple several hundred years after the fact that Rome adopted Christianity and established the papacy. Doctoring the record at that point would have been found out by archeologists evne if it occured a hundred years later. The documents are genuine. Unless you want to make the claim that someone doctored them at the time they were written. If so who and for what reason? People claiming to be messias were all over Judea. Why doctor the record on this one?

No other self proclaimed messias were crucified. Why this one? Because he was a greater threat to the political establishment than anyone who had come before. It was a political hot potatoe. Pilot had to maintain control of the situation and so took extreme measures to show the folks in Rome that he was a capable governor. Like any politician he had political enemies and there was a lot of correspondence on the matter. There is little reason to question the historical record on the basic facts.

Cassie

Pilate got off to a bad start in Judea.

First, he marched into Jerusalem with totem of Tiberius Caesar.  Caesar, considered a god by the Romans, desecrated the city.  Caiaphas, who was was used to having the ear of the Roman Gevernour, complained to Caesar.  Caesar told Pilate to tred more carefully, or there would be consequences.

Second, he used public monies to build Roman bath houses for the people of the city, not just Romans.  Caiaphas complained again to Caesar, saying that the funds were for the Temple and, thus, was desicrated ... again.  Caesar told Pilate that if there was ANY more trouble, Pilate would pay for it with his life, as well as the lives of his family.  (Typical sentence for a failed governorship.)

When Jesus was brought before Pilate, the records show that Caiaphas wanted him crucified.  At this point, there was the implied - and very real - threat of execution by Caesar if there was a riot.  Truely, Pilate was backed into a corner.  He had to execute Jesus to save himself and his family.

From what I have researched, it was the Syrian soldiers that had enlisted in the Roman Army that did the scourging, not the Roman soldiers.  Mel Gibson did his research and his movie seems to be an accurate protrayal of the Crucifixion.  Also, records indicate that they were Syrian soldiers outside the tomb, not Roman soldiers.

Regardless of the records, and the Romans were meticulus record keepers, we can not prove or disprove the existance of the Almighty.  It comes down to a matter of faith....

Faith in the stories people tell of how God has affected their lfe, both past and present.

Faith in how people have been transformed.  Not through some human-made institution such as a church.  Rather, how their core-belifs - their moral compass, if you will - has been altered for the better.

I know that the Almighty is.  I have seen God's great works.

Chaunte

Pilate. Thank you Chaunte. I didn't think Pilot was correct but I had no idea what might be.

Does it really come down to faith though?

I don't have faith what most call heaven exists, I remember it. Hrm. I think I am going to shut up now.

Right now it really does not matter who or what you believe in or even if you do..

One of our members, Terri, needs all the support you can give.

Talk, worship, pray, beg if you have to, to whatever power there is that Terri comes back to her wife, to her life and to us.

Leigh, yes -- we should all hope and pray for the best for Terri-Gene.  As if her road transitioning isn't hard enough, I recall her mentioning some of the health problems she's faced.  In the short time I've been in Susan's, I've looked forwards to her posts.  May she have a quick and painless recovery.

Teri Anne

Hi Teri Anne,

  Thanks for starting this thread.  I've been following it since the beginning.  :)  Just wanted to address one subtopic for now:

Quote from: Teri Anne on January 24, 2006, 05:01:37 AM
As I've said, I DO believe someone named Jesus lived and he died on the cross.  So, Roman records of his death are good but don't get to the heart of the matter:  Was he REALLY THE son of God? 

Ah, the question with the potentially priceless answer.  It gets into what some call the "Trilemma" and it is framed by the quote jamesBrine was looking for by C.S. Lewis: "You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God.  But let us not come up with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher.  He has not left that open to us."  Considering Jesus claimed to be God (not just the "son" of God, as we are "children of God", but "one with God", the Christ, the promised Messiah/Savior, I AM [that is, Yahweh or YHWH, the name God gave when Moses asked for His name, so revered by Jews that they would not speak it] (I found http://www.probe.org/content/view/90/77/ for more background on his claims), he was either insane, it was a hoax (i.e. he was a liar), or he actually was God. 

He could have been a liar. Cassie pointed out it would have made more sense for him to recant rather than die; you pointed out he could have accepted death for achieving the benefits of martyrdom.  Always possible, although if not to bring good news and salvation, it is tough to ascertain what exactly his objectives were.  It is hard to believe it was a hoax for the sake of the hoax, considering his teachings.  It is probably more reasonable to think he was trying to change Jewish culture for "the better", although most of his teachings were too radical to really be considered part of the Jewish culture (one reason why they hated him) and arguably for most of his teachings to have any real merit, he sort of had to fulfill the part about him being God ("I am the bread of life", "I am the living water", "I am the way, the truth, and the life", "I am the true vine" [i.e. giver of life], his true followers must "take up your cross and follow me", he told a rich man that to inherit eternal life he should give up all his possessions to the poor and follow him...etc, etc).  It is also tough to understand what "bettering" Israel would have accomplished since it was under Roman occupation at the time (and he apparently didn't care much for overthrowing them.)

He could have been insane.  Considering the teachings attributed to him though, it can be tough to believe that he was insane about his being deity and yet produced lucid and profound teachings that people are actually inspired by to this day.  But yes, possible that he could have convinced himself and everyone around him.  I tend to like the possibility of insanity more than the possibility of his being a liar.

To go back to what you said though, you said you believe someone named Jesus lived and died on a cross.  I'd like to acknowledge that the story doesn't stop there.  Lying about being God or actually believing that you're God is one thing, but actually rising from the dead is another.  There is no doubt in my mind that this man Jesus died.  Crucifixion in itself is bad enough, but Romans made sure people died by breaking their legs if they didn't die quickly enough (so they would suffocate).  Apparently, Jesus didn't have his legs broken because he had already died (though he did get a spear through his side anyway.)  So, he died and was buried, as the story goes, in a tomb.  As Wendy already pointed out:

Quote from: Wendy on January 08, 2006, 11:50:03 PM
If you recall the tomb of Jesus was guarded by a squad of Roman soldiers and the stone in front of the tomb would take 10 strong men to move.  In the days of the Romans any soldier that left his post would be put to death.  A Romain soldier would die before leaving his post.  Somehow Jesus got out of the tomb.

I think it would be tough to argue that Jesus' tomb wasn't empty and the stone wasn't rolled away.  Who the heck would even say that when any fool could see the stone was still there, or people could prove a body was in there by opening up the tomb?  There's also the question of how any of Jesus' followers would have gotten past the guard.  Then, the account of women being the first to see him:  if you were making something up, that's not a smart move - women weren't considered valid eyewitnesses in the Jewish culture.  I suppose the sticking point here though is who believed afterward and what happened to them.  Jesus' disciples and even his family believed they saw him resurrected and believed at that point He was God and started to really understand why he had come to earth.  They then went on to proclaim this belief to the death (Peter was crucified upside-down, his brother James was stoned to death, to name a few).  It is hard to believe Jesus' disciples or his family would believe this unless he actually did appear to them (multiple times, apparently), or that they would willingly die for a lie when Jesus' martyrdom in itself could have been sufficient, as you pointed out.  Yes, maybe they were all part of one heck of an elaborate hoax.  But a hoax isn't fun when you're not around to enjoy it and dying for a hoax when you have no real plan for life after death isn't too logical.  It also seems unlikely that they were all just collectively insane.  Also... your family?  The people who saw you with snot coming out of your nose as a kid?  If you think it's hard to get your family to accept you, try telling them that you're God and that if they believe in you, they will have eternal life.  Yet this is what they believed - James even calls himself the bond-servant of Jesus, his brother. 

Phew, I wrote more than I intended.  I should caveat that I do not intend to "convince you" of anything but hope that these thoughts will be usable to you in your search for God (or lack thereof).  I also don't think my reasoning is 'bulletproof' and look forward to further discussion.

All the best,
Joseph

Teri Anne, the questions you raise are valid, why would you believe that the man on that cross was not the son of God? The reason I believe he is is because of what he did all his life. Not once did he lie, cheat, or steal. Even with his dying breath through all the pain he must have been feeling, he asked god to forgive us all for our stupid and ignorant act.

My belief started when I was a child. I always felt that something was there, that something was protecting me and trying to guide me. Not to sure if I really have ever let that spirit guide me, but I know it keeps trying. In fact, without my belief I would be quite dead right now as it is my faith that has kept me from taking my own life, for years now.

The question isn't if god exists, but if you can let yourself find him. I have felt that if God truly gave us free-will, then he must hide himself behind the curtin to allow us to continue with this god-given right. For how can we NOT believe in God if we know without a doubt that he exists, and that would destroy the concept of faith. For faith isn't the lack of doubt, but the continuation of belief regardless of our own dobt.

I will finish this up with the statement that I believe in both God AND science. Why? Because if God made the universe, he made science. There are just to many coincidences for me to believe that random chance made our world. In fact, if you look to close, all the rules we assume matter has to obay breaks down, so who is holding it together?

You ask how can I believe, I ask how can you not?

Look at it this way.

You're the head of your class, and around you are folks who just don't get it. Too caught up in their mundane daily lives.  You want to help your fellows yet when you teach they ignore your words at best. It's frustrating, so what does one do?  You get their attention, you make them awe. At least SOME of them will pay attention then.

If I take a word, lets say, Tree.

Everyone has a general idea what a tree is and everyone nods their head, "Ah! Yes, a tree, I know what that is"

Now I ask 10 people to draw one.  I'm going to get 10 different pictures, in some cases, very different.

A spiritual journey is all about the details and the colors in your picture, and it is a personal one that has personal meaning.  We can discuss our pictures with one another, but no two pictures will ever entirely agree, and sometimes, we ourselves don't even know why.  Even if two of us draw oaks, they will still be very different in the details.

I think spirituality parallels that very much.
No two people believe exactly the same way.

Even within a certain religion which is a common set of spiritual beliefs (you both draw a water oak).
There will be differences in individual beliefs and what those beliefs mean to you. (you won't draw the exact same water oak).

With that said, just like the meanings and visualization of different words is a very personal thing, so is spirituality.

Now, to me, religion, tries to make all of it's members draw the exact same picture.  It tries to get you to conform to someone else's picture and says, "This is the right picture."  It takes the individuality out of spirituality.  It says, "All of this is right", "All of this is wrong", "This is what happens after death", "These are the things that you should do", etc... Religion, in essense, tells you, "this is what you should paint."

I am very spiritual, I am not religious.

The Question of God: C.S. Lewis and Sigmund Freud With Dr. Armand Nicholi

Ck out your local PBS station for details and air time.

Thank you all for your input and viewpoints.  Jessica, I agree with your viewpoint that different people SEE things in different ways.  When beginning detectives go to crime classes, one of the tests is having an actor come into the classroom, steal something, and quickly exit.  The teacher then polls the students, asking for a description of the criminal.  Unfortunately, there often is no agreement among the students' descriptions.  The lesson:  Eyewitness accounts are not necessarily the most reliable proof for proving someone guilty.  In fact, many have been sent to jail erroneously because of incorrect eyewitness reports.  DNA later clears them.

Because of this distrust of "witnesses," I will probably always be suspicious of stories in the bible.  Like you, Jessica, I guess this makes me "spiritual" but not "religious."  At least, so far...

Teri Anne

i have a wierd and strange way of thinking, i think anything is possivble, that humans can do magic, and things can live forever and that the world can be so much more.... i believe in Jesus and all but i believe we have been created with the possibility to do anything, we just have to figure it all out, my reasoning is that i am just lucky.... 2 lucky..... and i can say things.... and it will happen..... awkward.

now as for prayer i believe that we are unexperienced, and when we pray we say what we think will solve the problem instead of just stating the problem and asking for it to be handeled in the way best, for we may think we know the solution and pray for the solution, when we dont know the solution, so i think if we prayed right, we would get more,

I also believe in evolution as caused by us, that in are minds we know what we need to be and it takes a long time for us all to become such for we dont understand the ways....

Just like we have a GOD, i believe we are somewhat of the same compared to plants but we still have someone over us watching us.
I also believe in karma and all....
I also see that the way to figure out certain things you got to have a good additude and know its possible....

like if you want to be a singer, you got to have a good additude and know its possible,
your mind has to know its possible and accept it to what i believe to the point of ability much better than just what we believe were limited 2.....

i believe we should only pray on what we cant do,
and like i say, just state the situation and ask for whatever is the best solution instead of asking for what you think is the solution to happen....
i know this has nothing to do with the topic and im young but i got alot of opinions. i dont read much so i dont know alot but thats what i think from what i know....

oh and also,
all problems eventually pass,
all arguements will eventually pass,
So why argue?

I know im crazy.... lock me up, lol im still learning im still in my teens.

i also believe stories in the bible may not be real and my not be meant to be real but instead be meant to teach us lessons from the stories.... so that they may be fiction, but it still teaches lessons.... i do believe some things are real though in it.

i know i contradict myself and i should probly do some research but hey thats they way i see it now....

since on my account it wont let me send anything to the billions of people who have contacted me about this last reply of mine id like to say, i did read all of yours, and i really cant respond on here since you wanted it private.... so anyway im not trying to ignore you... bye

I think you can reply after a couple more posts.

Melissa

For me everything i know is from my life experience. In that experience i have been taught about all kinds of people and jesus was one of them. I like what i was told about jesus. i don't believe everything i was told or that i have read.
I have had experiences where i did something and later wished i didn't. It was like i had a spirit telling me not to do something. Some of the things werebad and so i did them and suffered the consequences. Other things i was told not to do and well i did them and suffered the consequences. I soon started listening to this voicewithin. I knew i had my ego and a choice to do some things that were good but not what i was told. I still suffered. I eventually started to do everything the voices told me to do. From that point on i never had any major isues. Yes i had simple life issues. When i get away from being constant with listening to the voicewithin / not my ego i get caught up in life and i usually end up suffering one way or another. It is like this voice knows better for me than i know for myself.
  The issue is i have to be constantly conscience of this conscieness. When i talk about this consciencness it seems the spirits above or guardians like it. They kinda reward me with me being able to know things and not have any problems. I am not a religous person, but i am a spiritual person. I believe jesus wanted us to get that personal connection to above. Jesus wanted us to know that we could only get that personal connection to above by going the same way jesus did. I feel that many of the things jesus said was distorted by those who were with him and they were made more closly aligned to religous like sayings.

here is a post i wrote recently:::

I am Danielle/ only the image of God / Above



I am a Jesus following Christian. I judge no one and worry not what others say about me. My life is guided by Jesus and others who have walked the walk in their earthly life. I have come to the realization that like God I am created in Gods image. My spirit has always been and always will be. My time here on earth started as a baby and slowly over time I came to realize through the actions of Jesus and how he was a rebel of his time here on earth that I too must not go along with the teachers of earth but I must be guided by my connection to above. I know that I have one foot in this world and one foot in the next. I offer up my body / shell to help those who started great works here on earth or who have unfinished business here on earth so that I may do their work. I do not live by faith as I use to but I live by my connection to the next world. Life here on earth is but a dream of the true spiritual world from whence we came and to where we will return. My time here on earth is but a drop in the bucket of my spiritual existence. I do not do my will but thy will above be done. I hear without my ears. I see without my eyes. I knew as a child that when I had dejavues that they were revelations of previous lives. I know that the king James bible didn't allow these teachings of being reborn in many earthly bodies to be included into the bible so that they could use the threat of only having one life to get it right before we die. I know that those dejavues were also telling me that when I was a spirit before I entered this body I wanted to know from whence I came to this world so that I didn't get caught up in all the things of the world. However, in a way I do have only one life but many bodies. My one life is my one spirit that lives on forever. I ride the surfboard of life and I am taken on many waves as I let my ego go and let above be my guide. In closing I know that I am the one who needs to listen to my words as they are meant for me. If they speak to another then so be it. Then I am just a vehicle for above and above uses me to reach others. But it is not the me the go the human body that is written here it is the angels above who get all the credit when anything I say speaks to another or when anything another says speaks to me as they are the open non ego vehicle relating Gods message to me. I know more will be revealed. I know that my blood family are only individual spirits ad that I must not think of them as being any more important than those who die everyday around the world. This is where Jesus says we must deny our family. We must follow in the ways of above. I know when Jesus spoke he too was speaking to above and if anyone heard then they had the ability to hear without ears. The words that are recorded of the life of Jesus does speak to me. So as Jesus did I to follow after him and surrender my soul and my earthly wants and desires to above so that I do the fathers will.

My earthly life has had many transitions. I had to come from a broken family being the middle child of 7 and even being the middle child of 11 because 4 siblings of my earthly mother did die at birth. I had to transcend drug addiction. I had to transcend gender identity. I had to give up all $$ and power and control to above and let above feed me and cloth me as above does to the birds of the sky and the flowers of the fields.

I worry not for all things here on earth. I know I can't control or shouldn't try to change another or anything. However, I also know that I am not to use or abuse any of Gods creations. I know that if I am attacked I should simple turn the cheek and worry not for death of the body. As written in the book of Mormon there was a civilization that buried their swords in the sand. The invading armies attacked but soon realized the people wouldn't fight back. Thousands were killed but most survived due to following the turn the cheek principle. If they hadn't the whole group of them would have been destroyed. I do not promote any religion. I am just open to when that which speaks to me and so I use many good things of many religions and I naturally reject many bad things of many religions. Religions are of man. My personal connection to above is from above. I know that I don't know it all and this leaves me open to more.

I love Jesus Christ and my grandmother who passed and my mother who is still in body form but it is really the spirit of these and others that I love and that help to guide my earthly life. It is the spirit that I see in others. The outer shell is just that. Don't judge a book by its cover and don't ever judge another because it is up to us to constantly judge ourselves by the riches in our hearts which are not due to doing anything for others but it is the constant surrender to above. I guess this constant surrender is a kinda faith but for myself there is no doubt. When I give anything it is for me not for them. When I pray for another it is for me not for them. Anything I say or do is for me and I am the one who must hear and see. Yes, it might be nice to help others but it is really only a superficial ego thing. Jesus says let the right hand not know what the left hand is doing. In saying this I hear that anything I do for another means nothing or is as dirty rags in the sense that my main and only concern is for my true spiritual growth and openness to learning more from above.

Yes, I have had many transitions. Yes, many times it was a stepping stone understanding. yes mankind has always let me down but above has always walked with me. Yes, in the beginning I boasted of things I did seeking earthly acceptance but over time I realized that yes my treasure is in heaven but what is even more important to me than to get treasure in heaven is to serve those below and let me thought of as crazy Danielle who gives away all she has as she trust in above for her daily needs. Yes, you can't always get what you want. you can't always get what you want. But if you try sometime. you just might find. You get what you need ohhh yeah... And also as the other group sung the song money can't buy you love can't buy you loveeeeeeeeeeeee ... Love from above is eternal... Earthly love is just that. So above has allowed me to stay celibate and single and be in total love to above.. That has been at times my hardest surrender.. I have had $$ and power etc etc etc but I have never had true intimate love of another human.. I have had and always have true love from above.. this has taken me past mental illness and past lust and past being lonely and past all superficial things of the world...

When my shell writes it is not me the go me the me know as Danielle it is the spirits above using me to and taking over control of my earthly shell to be able to complete good works so that maybe others come to understand the stepping stones of life that can bring them to an understanding that is themselves. It is better to be hated for who you are than to be loved for who you are not...

My life is mine. Your life is yours. We all have our own path.. Yours is yours and mine mine.. What you do is for you and what I do is for me. No one is worse than another.. be yea a murderer etc etc etc you are in your path and time and transitions and lives will bring you eventually to the place where you have transcended all things here on earth, so I judge yea not. I forgive yea not. Forgiveness is for you to forgive yourself,,, loving yourself is for yourself.. To thy own self be true but if being true to self is giving up your earthly self then so be it..

Dearest Lord above I give my life to you.. I serve you and all who need my earthly body to fulfill good works here on earth. May I not have an ego and think in any way that I am anymore than another. May I refute blood family and know that we are all spirits and to give credence to earthly things only distracts us from the eventual truth of our spirits. I pray for my spirit to live in constant surrender so that I may come to know more and grow and do more of they will. I thank the Lord for allowing me to only compare myself to myself and to be able to forgive myself and thusly lose my self and know that I am just spirit with one foot in this world and one in the next. When you reveal more to me so be it. Until then i hear without my ears and i see without my eyes.
   bye love Danielle

The above post was written about 10 days ago. I don't constantly follow what i write as i am human but when i do stay connected to above i seem to be pushed further away from humans but i find greater acceptence from above.. The last few days i have let myself get swayed by earthly thoughts. It happens and then within 3 days i go back to where i was from and even grow more. Its like 3 steps forward and one step back. I use to take 3 steps forward and 10 steps back.

i also know that i use to do good on one hand and bad on the other and think that the good would balance the bad. Oh the bad wasn't real bad and the good was very good but i soon saw that any bad was bad for me.

Learning about life is about getting that personal connection to above and try to keep it. I am getting better and better at keeping it and yet it seems the better i get at keeping it the further away i get from connecting to basic humans.. I sometimes wish i could find a soulmate who also believed and listened and understood so that we together could go towards the future with guidance from above as two spirits lead without worry or fear of going it alone..

Going it alone is the one thing that makes living with a personal connection to above so hard.

oh well time to go to bed. hugs all

As this post comes to a close, let me thank you all for trying to put on paper why you believe in God.  Unfortunately, I'm still searching.  At risk of insulting (which is not my aim), I'll be honest with how I perceive the arguments so far...

I agree that God or some spirit exists and I share with you doubt about religions, be they faith-based or supernatural ones.  Some of the arguments in this thread have been overly long (and people call me long-winded, lol).  Often, they used the bible to defend their views.  Like you, I feel the arguments "simply don't provide enough concrete evidence of what they feel God is, not to mention I find them illogical and very difficult to follow."  The arguments follow neither the scientific, journalistic or legal methodology for establishing true "proof."

I said at the beginning of this post that, for me, I did not feel that things written thousands of years ago would have any traction in this discussion of whether God is a myth.  Some of you argued that the writings CAN be taken as real because of this or that.  If a judge or jury in a court tells you that they don't accept ancient writings as proof, why continue to argue them?  Just because you believe things in the bible doesn't mean I will accept them as proof.  Being brutally honest, a judge would say, "Not admissable," and ask if you had any other arguments.

I even pointed out, as an extreme, that if I was standing right beside Jesus as he lived and died, I would see no conclusive proof that he was God or son of God.  Some of you said that some people saw Jesus after he lived.  A friend of mine saw a Elliot, a friend who had died the previous day -- that didn't make Elliot another Jesus.  If Elliot had been a popular priest, perhaps his followers would have interpreted his re-appearance as resurrection.  It, to me, simply means either that our brains are able to conjure up the unimaginable (there's so much about our minds that we don't know) or that there is a dimension (call it the fifth dimension) that we don't yet understand.

Likewise, the argument that God was beside you, helping you not fall off a cliff is unfortunately not winning the case with me.  Such arguments can be interpreted as a person's subconscious sense of self-protection which we as thinking animals all have.  It's animal instinct, not God.  Likewise, I think the religious people who state that someone died on 9/11 because it was God's wish are just plain wrong.  Just my opinion.

I had hoped for some logical proof that would tip the scales and allow me to "believe."  In the end, the only proof I can discern of a god existing is one I had at the very beginning of this discussion: The complex inner beauty of the human body, nature and the universe could not be possible without SOMEONE pulling the strings.  The inner workings of our eyes, brains, heart, veins and liver could not just be a random accident.  Unfortunately, this argument has nothing to do with getting me into a church, synagogue or mosque.  These are just buildings to me.  As architect Frank Lloyd Wright said, "God is in Nature."

I appreciate the input though and know you all had good intentions in trying to help me in my quest.
Thank you all.

Teri Anne

Teri Anne,

I doubt you offend anyone for stating your views. As to finding logical proof, that was a lost cause from the beginning. The spiritual cannot be proven with logic at least not by any judicial measure. If that could be done everyone would believe, which I believe misses the point of taking on faith. Christ's ministries always required his followers to take a leap of faith.

As for your friend, that cannot be compared to the accounts of the ressurrection. Taking the biblical account at face value, Christ appeared physically to his disciples. Thomas upon hereing would not believe unless he could put his finger in one of Christ's wounds, which he subsequently did. Unless your friend appeared in the flesh there could be no comparison.

I understand your schepticisim. You have to find or not find god for yourself. It is the only way. There is no proof or logic that can give that to you. I wish you well and hope that someday you find what it is you are looking for. If it is only an inner peace that comes from simply deciding to live without any god then that is still better than no peace at all.

Good Journey,

Cassie

ahem . . . I've been quiet on this topic for a while now but I thought I'd stand up now and answer the question "Is God a Myth." My answer is yes. My argument is this: if there IS a God, She'd pretty much want us to keep our beliefs personal just between ourselves and Her, because for one thing, humans are flawed beings and as evidence shows, humans claiming to be representing Her are doing a pretty bad job of interpreting whatever they think She is trying to tell us. I highly doubt a Supreme Being intended for massive chaos like this. Your beliefs in a Supreme Being should be between you and your God. Nobody else. We'd ALL be so much better off. IMO!

8)

Hi Alexandra :)
Thats the whole point I reckon - God could so easily step in and make us good, we could all be saints :)
However he/she (because God is far beyond sex, not limited by anything) would like to give us a chance to see what we could do with free will. 

You are right, God must be feeling disappointed - but God's patience & mercy & forgiveness is infinite I reckon.

And yes, you DONT need anybody to interpret - thats what the Protestants originally were about (before politics stepped in :(  )

I'd do well to remember Wittgenstein: whereof one cannot speak, thereof one must be silent.  But danged if I can keep my mouth shut.

Suppose some unsolved equation models a problem of interest.  No one's making any headway on it, but people concerned are in three camps: those who insist the equation has no solution (atheists); those who assert it has a unique solution (monotheists); and those who claim it has multiple solutions (proper polytheists).

What camp would I be in?  Well, I'm not concerned with the equation, I don't think it models the problem, and I don't think that any equation could.  So, I'm in none of the above camps.  Nonetheless, I do consider myself to be in the God camp.  Explaining why, though, is almost certainly beyond my abilities.  But I will say this: I haven't adopted a belief; I've stumbled upon an intuition.  And intuition (this one, at least) doesn't seem to be contagious.

-Celia

QuoteSuppose some unsolved equation models a problem of interest.  No one's making any headway on it, but people concerned are in three camps: those who insist the equation has no solution (atheists); those who assert it has a unique solution (monotheists); and those who claim it has multiple solutions (proper polytheists).

you forgot those who don't care if it has a solution-agnostics.

Dennis

Cassie - I agree with you that being religious takes a "leap of faith."  It, to me, is amazing that so many (some say a majority of the U.S.) believe.  I wonder how much of that belief is due to the "placebo effect."  ie. if you believe something will work, generally it will.

Alexandra - You said, "Your beliefs in a Supreme Being should be between you and your God. Nobody else. We'd ALL be so much better off. IMO!"  Amen to that!  I think we'd have fewer wars if "belief" wasn't so group-oriented -- if you belong to this group, you're saved (and may get a few dozen virgins in Heaven).

Celia - I liked the way you broke beliefs down to equations.  You say you've stumbled on "intuition."  Interesting way to put it.  It sounds so much more reasonable than out and out "belief."  I still wonder how people can believe so fully.  I'm sure "snake-oil salesmen" would love to know why the sale of "belief" works so well in religion but is met with skepticism in business.  Anyone who asks you to "believe" something works without Consumer Reports backing them up is someone trying to "shake you down" for money.

Dennis - As always, very humorous.  "Solution-agnostics" indeed!  I'm kind of a solution-agnostic about warring factions in the middle-East.  It's so hard when everyone has God or Alah on their side.  Darn convenient.

Teri Anne

God is on nobodys side - its a huge presumption for sides to think he is, like God was someones exclusive property.

Quote from: Dennis on February 06, 2006, 11:51:51 PM
you forgot those who don't care if it has a solution-agnostics.

Actually, Dennis, though I didn't enumerate the people who don't care about the equation, I didn't exactly forget about them (boldface inserted for emphasis):

Quote from: Celia on February 06, 2006, 04:10:44 PM
Suppose some unsolved equation models a problem of interest.  No one's making any headway on it, but people concerned are in three camps: those who insist the equation has no solution (atheists); those who assert it has a unique solution (monotheists); and those who claim it has multiple solutions (proper polytheists).

-Celia

Quote from: rana on February 07, 2006, 05:12:56 AM
God is on nobodys side - its a huge presumption for sides to think he is, like God was someones exclusive property.

I second that. Human arrogance knows no bounds.

Alexandra........  your so right that when we share our ideology of God / Godess we should know its a personal thing. Many times though we want others to know what has happened in our lives (my previous long post) so that we can hope that others find something close to it themselves.

Its like a no win situation.. if we share, it is as if, we are telling others, its our way or the highway and if we don't share, its as if, we don't care about anyone, but ourselves.

I do know in my own case my life has gotten better due to my spirituality, because it has given me a true love that never ends.. However, it got worse though when i used others religousity.When i use to get involved with religions i would judge others.. That was sick.. ..

I just believe and have faith and wish others the same.. ....... but sometimes i say these simple things.......... in long drawn out post :)

hugs love Danielle

Quote from: Danielegrl on February 07, 2006, 10:19:52 PM
Many times though we want others to know what has happened in our lives (my previous long post) so that we can hope that others find something close to it themselves.

Its a double edged sword . . . once you open that door, EVERYBODY gets to have a say on the subject, including the Rev's Fallwell, Robertson and Phelps. One would think a Supreme Being would be able to reach the masses without reliant on other humans to "spread the word". Anyway, as you said, its a no-win situation which brings up the point of perhaps it may be time to rethink the way we worship in our society today. SILENCE IS GOLDEN anyone?

hello!

I believe that God is a myth.  I don't understand a loving father who would cast his children into an eternal lake of fire for not worshiping him, LOL!  One of my friends is a christian, but she has a very interesting take on it...she says that she believes in God, but believes that he has no more interest in us than we do in a swarm of ants.  He created us, and the earth and goes on about other business!  She has no belief in Jesus/God as a "personal" thing.  She is the only person I know who has that idea of christianity.  Interesting thread...

hello!
  Alexandra you said this:
"Your beliefs in a Supreme Being should be between you and your God. Nobody else. We'd ALL be so much better off" Though this statement offers some truth I would disagree. As much as faith is between you and God it is also between humanity. To say that if we kept our faiths to ourselves we'd live in a better place simply can't be true. Take for example the dark ages when it was the monestaries that kept western civilalization alive by offering food and education and more, all that was due to their faith in their God.
  Second, from a christian persepective, Dietrich Bonhoffer in his book "life together" talks about that it is through Christ that we become brothers and sisters to each other and children under God. I can't seem to understand that as one becomes part of a family that a relationship with the head of the family can stay between yourself and the head without effecting others. I know that within christianity it is about community and personal faith. Yes our faith does come down to us and the supreme being but our beliefs affect more then just us, so i would suggest our beliefs involve others.
James P.S. I'm sorry if I offended someone!

If my writting is hard to understanding I apologize i'm not much for words, and feel free and encouraged to challange any of my thoughts and beliefs.

Would the extinction of what was western civilization then have been so bad?
In that vein, one can just as easily view the black death as punishment that was meant to eradicate western civilization.

As for joining the family per se, I disagree with the thought that there is, was or will be, any separation at all.

P.s. I agree that our personal beliefs affect others... I think there has been plenty of evidence of this throughout history.

james, in the absence of compelling evidence that god exists, keeping faith private would make today's world so much better. As stated above, a "civilized" society completely under control of a church isn't much of a society. Surely you'll agree an entire civilization that forbids belief in a supreme being wouldn't be much of a society either.

Hello
Alexandra: "Surely you'll agree an entire civilization that forbids belief in a supreme being wouldn't be much of a society either." True. I would doubt a society could ever accomplish such a feat. I also agree that a church should not run the state or force everyone to believe in one faith (i.e. crusades) for it will cause great problems. Agreeing that both extremes are dangerous we are left with to middle options: beliefs should be completly individual or beliefs have influence on community. (not run community though)

If one where to search out the reprecussions of these two middle options i'm positive one would find both  have draw backs and positive effects . Some questions arise such as can free speech exsist then?, does are purpose in life only extend to ourself?, how far can one speak about their beliefs?, if ones beliefs aren't dervied from spiritual beliefs yet affect others can they be sensored etc... From my perspective faith can't be all personal for it would destroy all aspects of community. I understand that I can't change your mind nor do I want to and nor will you change mine but I do want to say I have enjoyed your responses. As I see it we need to teach the ability to articulate our beliefs better (I understand I do a poor job, english is not my best subject) and respect others. Yeah there are jerks out there who say stuff that disgust me in the name of a faith while others are doing the complete opposite living tremdous lives who share their faith. No situation is win win as I see it.

Your first point about not enough compelling evidence. My question is what do you need to see that God exsists. In my faith I can look around outside and see God in nature and people. Amongst all the crap in the world there is such beuty and I can not attribute that to luck. On the evidence of God their are alot of good books on Apologitics or using resoning that God exsists. It may be fun to look into some of that. Just a suggestion. It may not be historical evidence or scientific but I would argue reason and logic form good arguments
James

james, you know, I look at the world see things that indicate a supreme being wasn't involved in the creation process.

but just so you know, I also believe we don't have ample evidence showing that God doesn't exist either, so in the absence of evidence either way I try to concern myself in the meantime with "other things" but am constantly disturbed by the extremists you mentioned. I don't see this getting better anytime soon. :(

QuoteGod's patience & mercy & forgiveness is infinite

Please correct me if I am wrong, but I am understanding that views such as this are common. In essence God is an all knowing omnipresent and omnipotent, super duper merciful, caring kind of Father figure.

Do I have the basic idea correct?

Well, I suppose it depends on which books you read. As I understand it the old testimate depicted a rather unkind fire and brimstone type of God.

...

I suppose it amounts mostly to personal experience. My life has been unpleasant and hurtful enough (and I do not even mention the mismatch of brain and body in this) to make me think who ever is in charge isn't very nice at all. In fact if it is anyone but myself responsible for this life... lets just say, I'm not happy with them at all.

But not all games we play are fun. Not all lessons are pleasant.
But what happens when life wears you down and it's all sand in the wind? ... all for naught?

Is it alright because that is what your God wanted? ... for you to suffer and be his pawn? Do you forgive because it was for your own good? Or do you spite because he had no right?

What if God isn't a myth, do you forgive him for all the hurt? All the pain? All the suffering? Do you thank him for the joy? The happiness? ... does it even out? Do you say "ouch, oh well I learned something?" and get on with your existence?

Life hurts. Deeply and thoroughly. It has since my earliest memories. ... do you forgive eons of hurt? Eons of suffering and pain? Do you just forgive because it's the "Right thing to do" ? Do you walk away and no longer play the game? Do you grin and bear it because it is wanted of you?

You look about and see everything, the world the planets the universe.  If there was not the hand of God in the creation of all this what is existence then :(  without God everything would be meaningless.

Kimberly yes you have the basic idea correct. God is infinite & merciful. 

Do you really think that all the hurt and injustice done to you was Gods fault?

I would not have anything to do with a religion whose God wanted you to suffer and have no free will - that sounds so much like the Communism of Lenin & Stalin - not Christianity or in fact any real religion

Quote from: rana on February 18, 2006, 05:43:23 AM...
Kimberly yes you have the basic idea correct. God is infinite & merciful.
...

The definition of mercy I see in life is not merciful to me.

So, does God overlook those around me or am I missing something?

Quote from: rana on February 18, 2006, 05:43:23 AM...
Do you really think that all the hurt and injustice done to you was Gods fault?
...

Most of it is the game of life.

However, who is responsible for this game?  The grand all-knowing all-powerful creator, no?

If God does not make mistakes, then everything I've experienced is according to his plan. All the hurt, all the joy, all the sadness. If it is his idea, isn't my grievance with him?

O.K....If God is so merciful, why does he cast his children into a lake of fire if they do not worship him?  There seem to be two different Gods in christianity, the infinitely merciful one, and the angry, vengeful one.  Makes no sense to me.

The books of the bible were written over thousands of years and incorporate many mythologies to sell the idea. In the Jewish tradition the concept of hell doesn't even exist there is simply the underworld or land of the dead similar to the Greek and Roman concepts of the Elysian Fields. The idea of a fire and brimestone hell comes from the middle ages during the plagues. They dug large pits were the infected bodies were thrown in and burned. At the height of the plagues these fires burned day and night. The brimestone was the odor that arose from this. The devil, as we have come to know the concept did not exist in early chritianity either. Yet another construct of the catholic church to scare people into accepting there version of the gospel. It is doubtful that god will be tossing anyone into a lake of fire. Many theologians believe hell to be seperation from god rather than a place.

Cassie

Hi Cassie
You are right and that is the position of the Catholic Church, hell is not a place but the separation from God.  Heaven is one with God, (sounds the same concept as Nirvana dosen't it) if you are not in heaven thats it, existence is finished.  Thats what I was taught.

The concept of hell as a place of eternal torment is a medeival concept and was held by Catholics & Protestants of that time - a way of thinking by people of those ages. I am not going to mock them or consider it an evil Catholic plot.  I'll concede Guy Falks action as an evil Catholic plot - savagely punished, but I think the stuff about the evil Catholic church that keeps surfacing in this thread is a bit overdone.

Hel I believe was the name of Norse afterlife, now that was a nasty sort of thing to call Pagan heaven the Christian place of torment - like building churches on pagan shrines; placing Christian feast days on the same date as pagan feast days (unless that was a cunning pagan action? )

I dunno, this thread is interesting but I keep coming across loaded phrases all through it :(   There is just no way that people of one viewpoint will ever convince holders of other viewpoints here so I will state things as I see them & refrain from making comments (even though I have a side to me that would just love to wade in :(  )

This thread IS interesting, and I don't think it was started so that believers could proselytize, really.  This is one of those topics in which there will never be a meeting of the minds, between believers and non-believers.  I find it fascinating to discover why people believe in God or don't believe in God...my own atheism started at the tender age of 11.  To me, it looks as if this thread was started as a curiosity kind of thing by Terri-Anne, and I have had the same curiosity.  So many of our detractors wield the bible like a club over us, and even though I know some trans people who say transsexuality is accepted in the bible, there are many christians out there who would disagree.  When people like my brother have tried to "convert" me they initially use a "merciful, forgiving God" tack, and when they encounter resistance, use the "mean, pitch you into an eternal lake of fire" tack.  I even find the pattern of proselytizing interesting, since many have tried to save me, and they pretty much use the same pattern.  With that said, I can certainly understand the desire for a loving, forgiving parent who is there for us no matter what...

Hi Terri-Anne,

Douglas Adams does a nice analogy of the concepts of God myths.  I am typing from memory so if this is wildly innaccurate...

"Imagine a puddle waking up one morning, a glorious sunny morning and it's first thought is
"My this hole I'm in is a nice, comfortable fit,  It's a really good fit, almost exact.  Hmmm It IS an exact perfect match...so good and so perfect it must have been made for me..."

And Lo the need for a maker is born.

He goes on...even as the Sun comes up and the puddle shrinks it's still thinking to itself "Still a perfect match...so everything will work out alright"  It gets hotter and the puddle evaporates more and more still thinking 'it was made for me so everything will be alright." Right up until the last moment.

The believer would say that you need faith to believe in god and without faith God is nothing.
Personally I prefer to stick to reasonably verifiable facts. >:D

              There are some of us who know there is something out there that can affect human and physical actions. We don't blindly believe, we have no blind faith but we have seen it work.  It is here with us and there are a few who have seen it work.  I can see how those who have no experiences would find this hard to comprehend but that does not make it untrue.



beth

Hi Beth, I hope I didn't offend, that was not my intention.  Just being a hairy kneed Pict with no manners.
Faith and a belief in the forces of God and good and Love and spirituality are all good things.  I just don't have enough evidence to trust something I have never seen.  In fact I have seen as much evidence of the existence of Mr Snuffleupagus as I have of any intelligent God-being.  Religion on the other hand is like an abusive parent. Magnificently altruistic acts have been carried out by people in the name of religion but, however, the opposite is also true.  Desolation has been wreaked across the world in the name of religion. That is where ideas of God in their purest sense of Love parts ways with Human Beings. 

As far as the existence of God goes, Show me the facts and I will pay attention.

Isn't it part of the puddle condition? To wonder what it's all about?

             You didn't offend me at all. If I were interested in finding evidence I wouldn't confuse the existance of a higher power and any religion. Religions are for those who need them. Most who have seen or felt the higher power have no need for religion. Without religion there is no need to tell anyone of the knowledge other than the people close to you. I wouldn't be mentioning it now but I'm a bit tired of listening to all the misinformation here.



beth

I stumbled upon the following discussion (http://www.theologyonline.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-12258.html) while browsing this thread earlier today.  The first response to Tinark from Duder strikes very close to home for me.  I'll bet a paycheck Duder's read Alan Watts. ;D

-Celia

I've been read this thread for awhile and tried to just ignore it. But again and again it has been stated that there is no proof that there is a creator (God).  I beleive that the complexity of life, our world, the galaxies and the uninverse scream out to us that there is a creator.
I love reading about astrology. Here are some scientific facts that I beleive show the existence of God:

Only 5% of all galaxies are spirals.
This is an important consideration for the existence of life, since life is only possible in spiral galaxies.
Star formation ceases too early in elliptical galaxies, resulting in insufficient production of the heavy elements necessary for life, in addition to the problem of unstable stellar interactions, which would be hazardous to planetary orbits.
The laws of physics are extremely fine tuned to permit the existence of matter, much less, the existence of biological life forms. For some of these physical laws, a change of as little as 1 part in 10 to the 37 power (10,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000) would prevent the universe from ever containing any kind of life.
For example increasing the mass of the universe by 1 part in 1059 would cause the "Big Crunch" (the collapse and destruction of the universe) to have already happened!
Not only must the planetary system be located in a spiral galaxy, but it must be located away from the center of that galaxy. There are some powerful forces acting in the center of this galaxy that are spewing gases (the red "flames") well above the galactic disk.
A planetary system located near the center of the galaxy would receive too much radiation for life forms to exist.
In addition, stellar gravitational interactions would most likely disrupt planetary orbits in such crowded conditions.
Our Solar System is located near the edge of the galaxy in a relatively unpopulated region between spiral arms.
Our Sun is located in the region of our galaxy that is called the galactic co-rotation radius.
This is the only known location within the galaxy where stars do not drift in and out of the spiral arms as the galaxy revolves.

The distance between the planetary star and the planet containing life is crucial for life to be able to exist. This "life zone" is a very small zone, in which water can exist in all three of its forms - gas, liquid, and solid (ice). Without liquid water, any kind of life is not possible.
The size of the parent star is crucial for the ability of that star to support life.
Large stars undergo rapid and unstable burning (extreme temperature variations), which cannot support life.
Stars increase in luminosity as they age.
For stars larger than our Sun have very short life spans (as short as a few million years).
Stars smaller than our Sun are not suitable to support life on planets.
Although these stars are able to undergo quite stabile burning for billions of years, their small mass requires that life-containing planets be much closer to the star. A Planets within the life zone have to be so close to the small star that the gravitational will causes the planet's rotational period to be reduced significantly, resulting in extremes of temperatures on the surface of these planets, which prohibits the survival of life.
The Solar System is unique in that the rocky inner planets are protected from comet bombardment by two large gas giants.
Scientists estimate that the Earth would receive approximately 1,000 times its current level of comet impacts if these planets were not where they are.
Such a large number of collisions would have prevented the existence of life on the Earth.
The Earth is protected from comets by two large, gas planets: Saturn and Jupiter which provides much of the protection of the Earth from comet bombardment.
In looking for planets of this size and distance from their stars, scientists have noted that Jupiter is a very unique planet in the universe.
All other gas giants found around stars are much closer to their star than Jupiter is.
In fact, most are closer to their star than the Earth is to the Sun.
If Jupiter were this close to our Sun, the Earth would have been ejected from the Solar System, along with all the other rocky planets.
It is believed that the unique arrangement of large and small planetary bodies in the solar system are required to ensure the stability of the system.
It seems very unlikely that stable planetary systems, in which a small earth-like planet resides in the habitable zone, exist in any other galaxy in our universe. This does not even consider the other design parameters that are required for life to exist anywhere in the universe.
The earth has a huge moon orbiting around it, which scientists now know 1) did not bulge off due to the earth's high rotational speed and 2) could not have been captured by the earth's gravity, due to the moon's large mass and the Earth's proximity to the Sun.
The presence of the moon is absolutely vital to the Earth's ability to host any kind of life.
Without the moon, the Earth would be a barren, scorched planet, similar to Venus.
The presence of the moon has kept the Earth's tilt consistent. In contrast, the axial tilt of the other planets has varied widely through the history of the Solar System. Why is axial tilt important?
A planet with a large axial tilt will experience extremes of temperature as the star shines predominantly on one portion of the globe.
The axial tilt is also designed to optimize the ability of the continents to support life.
The majority of the Earth's land mass is located north of the equator.
It just so happens that during the summer in the northern continents, the Earth is at its farthest distance from the Sun, which keeps the northern hemisphere cooler in the summer and warmer in the winter.
Earth is 20% more massive than Venus and further away from the Sun, both factors of which should have lead to a terrestrial atmosphere much thicker than that of Venus. For some strange reason, we have a very thin atmosphere just the right density to maintain the presence of liquid, solid and gaseous water necessary to life.
Scientific research is helping us to understand that the earth is unique in many ways, even compared to the other rocky planets in our Solar System.
The earth has a unique continental crust, which is different from any other planet in our Solar System (even Venus, our "sister planet").
Normally, during planet formation, the crust covers the entire planet.
Under these conditions, the crust cannot move, since there is no free space for it to do so.
However, because of tectonic activity, continents can exist on a planet that would normally be a water world. Without tectonic activity, our continents would have eroded into the large ocean, never to be seen again.
In fact, other planets with large amounts of water are always water worlds because of erosion.
The Earth has a large and heavy metallic core.
In fact, the Earth has the highest density of any of the planets in our Solar System. This large nickel-iron core is responsible for our large magnetic field. The magnetic field produces the Van-Allen radiation shield, which protects the Earth from radiation bombardment. If this shield were not present, life would not be possible on the Earth. The only other rocky planet to have any substantial magnetic field is Mercury - but its field strength is 100 times less than the Earth's.
Sorry about this long posting.
Even setting my faith aside and just being completely obejective about this world we live I have to beleive in a creator. How could all of the conditions that I have stated in the above discourse
have happen by chance?
Thats my opinion.
What do you think?
I do have faith and can also tell you from my personal encounters with God that he is real and loves us all.
:)
Jillieann

What do I think...!  you ask... :)

Like you Jilleann I don't usually post to the spirituality forum, however I would just like to point out that the facts contained in your post are common arguments that are listed on and direct quotes from sites such as:

http://www.godandscience.org/love/sld004.html (http://www.godandscience.org/love/sld004.html)

http://www.reasons.org/ (http://www.reasons.org/)

This argument along with many others on sites such as these are self serving and have been put together and contrived to be used by Christians as a counter to none-believers by interpreting scientific fact to agree with their beliefs.

Quote from: JilleannOnly 5% of all galaxies are spirals.
This is an important consideration for the existence of life, since life is only possible in spiral galaxies.

Of course you must mean life as we know it, life that populates our planet, as we have no idea what life forms populate the universe, and there are some who would say there are none.

Just my thoughts :)

Steph

That's a good point Stephanie. How do you interpreted scientific facts? Who should?

Is this a unique planet in our solar system, the galaxy, or as much of the universe as we know about? I think the answer is yes. That is all I was saying. 

Is there other life forms populate the universe?  Can there real be life without water or oxygen? Can something live in extreme cold or heat? The scientific community has spent billions of dollars and haven't found any clues yet of any other types of life.

I don't have answers for these questions.

All I know is that this world is the only one, okay I given in to this possibility, one of a few that can support our type of life.
I love science fiction too. Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon Five, Battlestar Galactica,..... but it is fiction not fact.
:)
Jillieann

Quote from: Jillieann on February 26, 2006, 10:01:31 PM
That's a good point Stephanie. How do you interpreted scientific facts? Who should?

Is this a unique planet in our solar system, the galaxy, or as much of the universe as we know about? I think the answer is yes. That is all I was saying. 

Is there other life forms populate the universe?  Can there real be life without water or oxygen? Can something live in extreme cold or heat? The scientific community has spent billions of dollars and haven't found any clues yet of any other types of life.

I don't have answers for these questions.

All I know is that this world is the only one, okay I given in to this possibility, one of a few that can support our type of life.
I love science fiction too. Star Wars, Star Trek, Babylon Five, Battlestar Galactica,..... but it is fiction not fact.
:)
Jillieann

Jillian,

Try reading Rare Earth.  Much of what you have said is listed there.  I will warn you that this is NOT light reading.  I was able to get through about 10 pages at a time before I had to set the book down and think about what was just said.

What we know is that of the 129 other solar systems we have detected within about 450 light years of Earth, only one has its gas giants in the same relative place that Jupiter is in our solar system.  We just found a terrestrial planet, about 10 Earth masses, orbiting a "normal" star.  (Not a pulsar.)  We are JUST reaching the point where we can detect terrestrial planets around stars.  When we start getting atmospheric data, then we will have a better understanding of how rare life might be in our galaxy.

At the end of Rare Earth, the authors expand upon the equation used by Carl Sagan to describe how populated the galaxy is with complex life.  (not single cell life)  If I was optimistic, I came up with about 2 million possible planets in our galaxy with multicellular life.  If I was pessimistic, the equations gave me 130 planets in a galaxy of 400 billion stars.

Yes, life can flourish in extreme environments.  THey are called extremeophles.  Multicellular life thrives deep under the ocean, too deep for sunlight to reach, where there are active steam and hot water jets coming out of the ocean floor.  It was the extremophyles that restarted life after several mass extinctions of the last 4.55 billion years.

What gives me hope that there is life elsewhere in the galaxy comes from a photo taken by the Mars Rovers.  It didn't get much air play for some reason, but it should have.  It was a close-up of a sedimentary rock.  On the rock was what appeared to be a fossil of something that resembled lichen.

Chaunte

Chaunte you said that

QuoteI came up with about 2 million possible planets in our galaxy with multicellular life.

That is out of over 200 billion star in our own Milky Way Galaxy.
So I would say that if even half of those planets have some form of life they are still very special and have very  unique solar systems.

QuoteWhat gives me hope that there is life elsewhere in the galaxy comes from a photo taken by the Mars Rovers.  It didn't get much air play for some reason, but it should have.  It was a close-up of a sedimentary rock.  On the rock was what appeared to be a fossil of something that resembled lichen.

If NASA had found some evidence of life on Mars they announced it to the world so that  they could get more funding for the project and other projects related to finding life in space.

QuoteYes, life can flourish in extreme environments. 

I should have defined what I meant by extreme but there is no place on earth as extreme as most environments on the majority of planets that we know about in our galaxy.

There are just too many variable for a planet that can substance life. I still say that it is incredibly unlikely that life, no to mention intelligent life, could exist here or anywhere else without a creator.   
:)
Jillieann

Quote from: JillieannThere are just too many variable for a planet that can substance life. I still say that it is incredibly unlikely that life, no to mention intelligent life, could exist here or anywhere else without a creator.   

Why would you say that, and why does "life" have to conform with our perception of it.  Actually I think that the chances of there being "Intelligent Life" created without a creator would be more viable :)

Steph

I think we will find life plentiful - as long as it is single celled.

Multicellular life will be harder to find, but not impossible.  Text such as the Bible, Torah and Quoran only apply to humans.  I know the Catholic church's stand is to NOT try and convert any alien life to our religious views.  (Take your pick!)

The better question is - Do we really want to be found?

Chaunte

Quote from: Jillieann on February 26, 2006, 10:01:31 PM
How do you interpreted scientific facts? Who should?

There is already a system in place for this, its called the SCIENTIFIC METHOD. Its utterly fool proof (yet humans manage to make fools of themselves anyways . . . most recently with the stem cell thing and not too long ago, the "cold fusion" gaffe.)

Anyway, back on point. By examining evidence (or facts), scientists can propose theories or conduct studies or experiements based upon what they know (or what they've found out). If they are correct, REPLICATION (usually the same experiement conducted by other scientists elsewhere) will confirm it. In addition, future evidence can either confirm, or as it has often done so in the past, DISPROVE existing beliefs.

Now with the God thing, there is no evidence that can be examined, looked at or create theories from. Nor is there likely to be any evidence surfacing in the future that can be scientifically examined. Any "theories" proposed by people insisting of an existence of a supreme being cannot be tested and proved.

As a result, such theories have no more validity than the one in PBS's Dragon Tales that suggest kids "fly with dragons in a land apart" when parents are not watching.




Posted at: March 01, 2006, 02:05:25 AM

---

Quote from: Chaunte on February 28, 2006, 09:13:40 PM
The better question is - Do we really want to be found?

We've no choice in this . . . we've pretty much made ourselves the nosiest place in this part of the galaxy with the massive amount of RF that we've been blasting into outer space for some 80 years. Any intelligent civilization within 80 light-years (and counting) of us will know we're here as if we hit them over the head with a bat.

We DO however, have 2 mathematical limitation "advantages" to protect us from an immediate invasion . . . 1) the time to travel even 10 light years (approx closest star) with practical speed limitations factored in is longer than the length of our lifetimes (which gives us plenty of time to develop gamma ray weapons) and 2) any increase of speed to send a sizable army here quicker will require more energy than some star systems contain.


(but of course, any intelligent society could develop their own gamma ray weapon and fire it from their own planet and hit us as rapidly as we are hitting them with our RF garbage, silencing the racket we're making . . . hmm . . . now THAT'S something to lose sleep over.)

ps: RF is radio signals, television signals especially -- many (most?) TV station broadcasts approx 400,000 watts into space each. By comparsion, the tiny 1-watt Pioneer spacecraft transmitter, far beyond the outermost planet Pluto, could still be heard!

Hi Celia,
That is an excellent link :)   you can't read the postings there you have to study them.  I don't know at this stage who Alan Watts is?  a philosopher maybe??

rana

Quote1) the time to travel even 10 light years (approx closest star) with practical speed limitations factored in is longer than the length of our lifetimes (which gives us plenty of time to develop gamma ray weapons) and 2) any increase of speed to send a sizable army here quicker will require more energy than some star systems contain.

Ahh, but you are forgetting the possibility of using folded space or wormholes to travel these distances. Quantum physists claim these things to be theoretically possible. What if someone out there has put theory into practice. Think you can get that death ray working a little sooner?

Cassie

Rana,

A google on Alan Watts turns up this wiki page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Watts) (among other things).  The specific Alan Watts reading I was referring to is The Book - On the Taboo Against Knowing Who You Are. :)

-Celia

Quote from: Cassandra Anna Hefton on March 01, 2006, 06:34:11 PM
Ahh, but you are forgetting the possibility of using folded space or wormholes to travel these distances. Quantum physists claim these things to be theoretically possible. What if someone out there has put theory into practice. Think you can get that death ray working a little sooner?

Cassie

True, but that would be cheating on their part wouldn't it? One would think a higher civilization would fight like gentlemen and not use nuclear weapons against a tribe throwing stones.

ps: the problem with gamma rays is that they pass through everything. As a result, we cannot aim these rays to specific targets. This may explain why we're still alive today!  8)

Quote from: Teri Anne on January 08, 2006, 09:58:04 PM
Just give me YOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE.

Teri Anne

Wow, religion. I believe there is a force out there and people choose to call it (the force) God.
I honestly believe religion is the root of all evil. Wars, oppresion, cleansing of races are all religion based.

My big question is, Who is right?

If you are born in India you will be Hindu. Middle East you have the Koran and be a Muslim. Asia you will be a buhdist. America you can be any number of things, mostly Christian based. So if you are born here in the states you are taught your god is right and everybody else is wrong. They are taught the same thing and have the same determination and convictions as the others. With christians it's brainwashing with fear of going to hell. Then they show and teach ideas of hell that scare you into doing right.

I do feel religion is important in some aspects that if the Fear of going to hell will keep somebody on the straight and narrow and decide to be good to humanity then that is just fine and dandy. Being TS is already hell so trying to tell me that I am going to hell is not going to change what I am or what I want to do. And since Jesus already died for my sins then why should I fear him/her and how I would be judged?? Maybe I was put here to change and teach others to be more loving and accepting anyhow.

I do believe we all have souls and some are good and some are bad. There are evil people. There are good people and then there are some that fit in the middle. What constitutes a good or evil person? Does it have to be based on the bible? Or can society just accept somebody as being good or evil with out the religious overtones.

I feel society is so brainwashed with bible teachings that it is not possible to seperate it. I feel the bible is good because it tells you to be good and do good. But since it was translated and written by man, then we are living on somebodies idea.

In the dark ages when the bubonic plague hit, thousands were burned at the stake because of the fear they were witches and causing the sickness. All that fear based on religion has killed millions in history.

I do believe there is a higher power and we should all be open and kind to each other, but don't look for me in the local church. I have prayed from time to time in desperation. It is not going to stop my feelings or wanting to "butcher" my body. Funny how there are sick people that feel the need to dismember their arms or legs and are considered wierd, but as soon as you want to do that to genital or breasts, then you are "butchering" yourself.

I have decided you cannot teach or explain what it is like to be TS and until you have spent a month in my shoes you could never possibly hope to understand. Its complicated enough without bringing religion into it.

Lori, you wrote, "My big question is, Who is right?"

My answer is that they all are, or at least were.  I know that the experience of God (for lack of a better word) is universal.  If you're human, this is what God feels like.  But, say you truly felt the prescence of the Almightly and you wanted to tell everyone around you about it?  How would you describe it?  You would use words and symbols from the world and culture around you.  That's the only way to communicate something so foreign to normal everyday experience: through metaphor, simile and analogy.  So that's where the different religions come from.  They started out as descriptions, in recognizable cultural terms, of what God felt like and how to reproduce the experience.  The problem is that words and other symbols are woefully inadequate to define the experience.  And on top of that, humans pervert the original teaching over time for any number of reasons so that by the time one or two thousand years have gone by the original teaching is all but lost.

And why do I "believe?"  I don't.  Believing means taking someone else's word for it.  Faith, to me, is a willingness to have it be so.  Not a blind, suspend your best judgement slavery!  And I think that if one approaches spirituality from that direction the dogma, prejudice and exclusionary self-righteousness fall away and give the opportunity to experience the real thing.

helen

Personaly I like to believe the Hare Krishnas at the airport are right  :P

If you know anything about the bible there is a passage about worshiping a false idol. It was taught in my Christian church as well growing up with the bruises of dicipline. That would make the catholics and buhdists wrong according to the Christian faith. That is why I asked "Who is right?"

I take back what I said earlier. I am no longer religious.

I just don't understand religion anymore. It's a bunch of conflicting believes. I don't quite understand why if woman are so "unclean" and they should submit to their husbands then why did God make them?

It doesn't make any sense to me, and I could point out other problems in Christianity too.

but what I see in it is it was a way people 1000s or so years ago started controlling people to make them believe what they believe. and it's still doing the same thing. I won't let it do it to me anymore.

and why if there is a God am I going through this? Isn't God supposed to love me? Why would God make something that the Bible says is "wrong". I've prayed for years and years and nothing has happened. Nothing has got better.

Therefore I no longer believe.

hey! Agian as always this has been an interesting post. I was lost for a bit during the whole science and space discussion but hopefully can join in agian.
Victoria I would like to offer some responses to a couple of your comments.
1) women submitting to their husbands. Could you please give the verses in the bible you are making this claim on. I think i know the ones you are talking about but i would like to make sure. But to speak generally the bible speaks of an equal relationship between men and women.
2) Christianity being used to control people. It has been done i can not argue that. To say that one needs to abandon religion to stop the controlling in their life does not make sense to me. My faith is my own, my ideas are my own, ones i've come to understand to be true. I can also think of many more people in the same situation as me. Just think of the people of faith on susans. Most christian churchs do not accept Cd or TG people yet the people on susans have come to an understanding in their faith outside the majority of others.
3) i don't quite remember what you are going through. (if you are regarding your feelings on Cd or TG) I know for me it has been a hard time reconciling my feelings and my faith. I want to go to my feelings because they feel better. I can't understand why God has let these feelings be apart of my life. I may suggest that God did not make you this way but rather it is a product of nurture in soceity. The great thing for me is in my journay is that I no longer try to figure out why God let this happen to me but rather that God is with me. I can't say why God has or has not answered your prayers but i do wish to say that if I may have the privilage I would like to continue to pray for you. We are all on a journay in our life and one great thing about susans is that its a journay we take together.
With love and thoughts. James

1) women submitting to their husbands. Could you please give the verses in the bible you are making this claim on. I think i know the ones you are talking about but i would like to make sure. But to speak generally the bible speaks of an equal relationship between men and women.   

Ephesians 5.22-25 springs to mind..."Let wives be subject to their husbands as to the Lord; because a husband is head of the wife, just as Christ is head of the Church"...yada yada.

I have this book, and am unable to find it at the moment but here is a handy link to find bible verses concerning the chattel status of women.

http://www.ffrf.org/nontracts/women.php

Quote from: HelenW on March 06, 2006, 07:21:01 PM
But, say you truly felt the prescence of the Almightly and you wanted to tell everyone around you about it?  How would you describe it?  You would use words and symbols from the world and culture around you.  That's the only way to communicate something so foreign to normal everyday experience: through metaphor, simile and analogy

Sounds a bit like TSism and "feeling female," doesn't it?

Quote from: HelenW on March 06, 2006, 07:21:01 PMAnd why do I "believe?"  I don't.  Believing means taking someone else's word for it.

Well, believing can also be by choice. I believe in faeries, for example, but for me it's because I willingly, joyfully *choose* to believe in them... without regard to evidence or what I've read. It's a harmless belief that adds a splash of colour and fun to my existence, so I cherish it - and them.

hello!
I want to respond on the verses about women in the bible. NO where in the bible does it suggest men should suppress women or treat them unfairly. In regard to ephessions i would ask that one reads verse 25-33 in chapter 5. When looking at these verses one must incorporate the culture that the writtings were written in. Thanks for the website, i'll look into it and try to offer an explanation to some of those verses because I was rasied to believe that the bible does not oppress women, this could be caused by my denomonational upbringing.
James

Quote from: Kate on March 21, 2006, 11:44:02 AM
Sounds a bit like TSism and "feeling female," doesn't it?

Yes it does, except the feeling of the Creator's presence is universal so many more people can "get it" but being stuck in a body that is wrong for you is not.  So practically no one who hasn't experienced it can or will "get it."

Very unfortunate since that's the main reason why those uninititated people think it must be a viable lifestyle choice rather than a choice between living or dying.

helen

hello! I want to respond more directly to andy's comment on Ephesians 5:21-35. Below is a section from my Intro to NT text book. pg 387
  "The theme for the next part of the discussion, the rules for conduct within the family (the Haustafel), is given at the outset: "be subordinate to one another out of reverance for christ" (5:21). By placing his advice to the various kinds of person who constitute a Greco-Roman household under that rubic, the author differentiates what follows very clearly from the kind of advice given in comparable non-christian rules, but changed the content dramatically. The purpose of such rules in the non-christian community was to reinforce the hierachical structure of the Greco-Roman family and to quell any attempts to disturb that structure, in which men were preeminent, then women, then children, and finally slaves. Nowwhere in those rules would there be found any hint that all were to be subordinate to one another. The word "subordinate" is alos important. Often incorrectly translated "subject," the greek word refers to occupying one's proper place in the order of things. It Points not to domination and obedience, but rather to function properly within the good order of the family. And that good order, the author informs his reader at the outset, is dertermined by th self-sacraficing love of Christ.
   The author speaks of the roles of various persons in the household within the framework of that love. Wives are to find their proper relation to their own husbands. Note well, the point here is the proper relation to the husband, not to men as such. Such respect is compared to the respect shown by the church to its savior Christ. This is not a requirment that a wife do whatever the husband wants and obey whatever he may command, however harmful or pervesrse it may be. That would be precisly to break the rule that wives find their proper realation to their husbands, because such demands by a husband would already have broken the mutual subordination in Christ characterisitics of the Christian family.
  Husbands similarly are to exericse their proper relation to their own wives, which is that of Christ to the Church, namely willingness to sacrafice  oneself for the good of others. Indeed, when a family functions correctly, the husband respects the wife with as much natural spontaneity as he respects his own body, clothing it when cold and feeding it when hungry. Thus, husbands must put the good of their wives before their own good as, the author concludes once more, Christ did for the Church. (5:32)"
     Source
Inroducing the New Testament: Its literature and theology by Paul J. Achtemeier, Joel B. Green and Marianne Meye Thompson

  People have used scripture to oppress women. How? they take their modern world view and twist it to their liking. When studying scripture it is important to look into the context of the culture. Most, if not all of the scripture mentioned on that web page above would be proven to be pro-women if viewed from the time in which it is written. I apologize if I came off as preaching, it was not my intent. I wanted to set the record that website miss quoted many of those verses and to educate people that the bible does not oppress women but rather fights for equality. With this I hope people can pass this knowledge on so these verses will no longer be used to oppress women rather fight for equality in the family.

 

Quote from: jamesBrine on March 25, 2006, 08:45:45 AM
When looking at these verses one must incorporate the culture that the writtings were written in.

Not that I'm trying to come down hard on you personally, but WHY must I "incorporate the culture the writings were written in"? Did God ask that the current "culture" be incorporated into his bible? Did the writers misunderstand God? Is the all-powerful God, someone that created the earth and the heavens incapable of getting a clear and consise bible written?

Sorry, the burden is not on the reader to figure out this slopply written and vague book. Never mind the absence of compelling evidence that any of it is true.

hello!
  Thanks agian for your imput Alexandra. I want to make it clear that scholars believe that the bible was written for a 1st century audience not the 21st century audience. I do not want to say that it has no releveance on our lives because i beleive it does.
   Take for example the book of revelation, it is full of imagery from the 1st century. They used the term "seven hills' to describe a place, in our times this could mean anything but if you take culture of the 1st century into the picture it would point to Rome becaue Rome was built on Seven hills. The term "seven hills" refers to Rome in Revelation. (Rev 17:9) keep in mind the seven heads and women also represt something.
  World views change, people must read the bible on its terms. A non-cd can't understand a cd if they are looking through their eyes, they must place themselves in the shoes of the cd. So must people do this when studying the bible. When one does this the bible makes alot more sense and shows alot more love then reading it a face value, it no longer because rules rather offers guidances and hope to ones life. 
  you talk about it being a burden to figure out the bible, when you read evidence in science is it your burden to figure it out? When reading many great works of shakespere, pascal, Nietzsche do you not have to understand their culture and world view before you can understand what they are writting about? As you say i'm not trying to attack you but rather argue what you wrote.
   P.S. grateful for your response
      Love and thoughts James!

Quote from: jamesBrine on March 26, 2006, 03:10:15 AM
when you read evidence in science is it your burden to figure it out?

At least there is evidence to exam when an explaintion seems dubious! 

I would think the Bible needs at least a few compelling pieces of evidence to make worthwhile of spending time on it and incorporating what it says into one's daily life.

I would think spiritually, we'd all be better off as a society if people with spiritual needs would just imagine what an ideal Supreme Being would be like and just worship Her in your own image.

What say you?

Quote from: Alexandra on March 26, 2006, 02:32:54 AM
Not that I'm trying to come down hard on you personally, but WHY must I "incorporate the culture the writings were written in"? Did God ask that the current "culture" be incorporated into his bible? Did the writers misunderstand God? Is the all-powerful God, someone that created the earth and the heavens incapable of getting a clear and consise bible written?

Sorry, the burden is not on the reader to figure out this slopply written and vague book. Never mind the absence of compelling evidence that any of it is true.

                I feel a need to answer this question, not because I believe the passages in the bible (I have my own god) but because I know and respect people who do.

                If there really is a God as described in the bible would it tell it's followers all the details of their existance? I don't believe so. Maybe that God nudged a little planet into just the right orbit to have the needed temperatures and receive water from comets. Maybe it also sent the building blocks of life crashing from outer space. It could have waited millions of years for all to develop (a pitance in eternity time) sending an occasional asteroid to mix things up if it wasn't developing exactly as planned, I could go on but you get the idea.

                If he spoke to one of the humans, could he tell of the building blocks of life, the millions of years and all the scientific explanations of dna, how the earth developed and life was formed? I don't think so. It is much like when a child asks for an explaination of a complicated subject. One just gives an answer that falls within the childs ability to understand.

beth

hello!
Alexandra you said that their should be a few pieces of evidence before looking into the bible. Can you please define what you mean by a few. Take for example Jesus lived, historical accuracy of many occasions mentioned in the bible, The life/transition of Paul, the formation of the early church. One could find many aspects of evidence. The greatest evidence in my mind is the impact of the bible over time (good and bad) , the life changing experiences of many. No matter what evidence is given you could always say you want more, may i ask what kind of evidence one shoud have before one should incorporate the bible in their lives. 

Society being better off
One example of how the church did good. Fighting for the Rights of women in the early church. It was Rome that oppressed women not the church. With a sad heart i must admit that the church has had a fair part in oppressing women. But to say that if all people kept their religion silent we be better off i would disagree with because humans will find another aspect of life to make the "face" of all the worlds problems.

You want humans to imagine their own Gods. This sounds even more dangerous to me. This is the problem with Christianity because people have their own ideas of who God is. Some see God as hating gays and they worship God accordingly by persecuting gays, other see God as vengeful and act on his behalf. Not everyone will have a loving view of the surpreme being and who's to tell them their wrong if everyone has their own God.
James

good comments and questions! . . . but I gotta go. I promise I'll answer them soon!  8)

I look forward to your reply
James

A person given a candy bar doesn't eat the wrapper.  Given a treasure map, he doesn't toss it on the ground, tread upon it until he reaches the X, and exclaim "I'm rich!".  He doesn't, upon spying his foe, hold his thumb and index finger up to his eye, and, closing them together, say "I'm crushing your head!  I'M CRUSHING YOUR HEAD!".  But it's amazing how people confuse the means and the ends when it comes to scripture. ;D

-Celia

hey!
sorry celia I was unable to understand what you meant by "But it's amazing how people confuse the means and the ends when it comes to scripture." If it is not to much trouble could you please elaborate on what you wrote
Thanks! James

Hi Celia,
I am not really sure what you are getting at here.  You will have to "dumb it down" a bit for me thanks.

regards

rana

Well, I guess I'll steer clear of the analogies.  Rather than finding God through scripture, all most people find is . . . scripture.  And they seem pretty content with that.  All well and good if they were looking for nothing more in the first place; but, if they were seeking God sincerely before they got sidetracked by so many words on paper, it's pretty sad. :(

-Celia

Quote from: Celia on March 29, 2006, 05:10:49 PMbut, if they were seeking God sincerely before they got sidetracked by so many words on paper, it's pretty sad. :(

Forgive them, for they merely heed the binding commandment of this world: forget.

It takes time to learn to walk on the ethereal strands of metaphor and myth. To trust. To believe as an act of creation, rather than using it to kill ideas as one pins butterflies to a collection.

Remember: you too were once as they are :)

When all the world seems a desert, sometimes a flower blooms and reminds me otherwise.  Thanks for the gentle words, Kate. :icon_bunch:

Yours,
Celia

Hi Celia,
Good idea, steer clear of analogies and parables and suchlike.  The form is beautiful but people like me like things simple and direct, otherwise we tend to get confused :(   
I get where you are going now I think :)  Is what you are saying that people read the Bible and quote from it for their own purposes (like the Devil is supposed to do :)  ) without really considering what Christ was doing and saying. 

If that is the case then I would agree.  But not with your statement that most people do that.
I am an optimist,  I believe people are searching and are not easily sidetracked

rana

I steered well clear of this thread initially, it is such a can o' worms, 'til now.
As a long-time spiritual sort of person, who is NOT A BELIEVER (NB: I will assert here that the first order of business, in path toward enlightenment is to cast aside all belief), I feel I must respond.
Especially, EG: "the universe is orderly and logical." Well, it does appear to work whether we understand it or not; as per a blanket assertion around "ORDERLY"... well... sure, the planets do not drop out of their orbits, IE: as a mechanical model, it >appears to work<, but a rudimentary reading of Einstein, so glibly quoted there, readily shows his STRUGGLE with chaos vs order. I have no pretense at "scientific", but will pose this thought, as an artist: how much of that "order" is imposed, as a structural idea, by the human? As an attempt to grasp the ungraspable... see Beethoven struggling mightily with the counterpoint...
RE: 'God", capital G: do you REALLY think She's a micromanager? Detail-oriented, or a BIG PICTURE sort of gal? "PRAISE (or blame) GOD" - insert quote from J. Brine: (sic) "I can't understand why God has let these feelings be apart of my life. ... The great thing for me is in my journay is that I no longer try to figure out why God let this happen to me but rather that God is with me. I can't say why God has or has not answered your prayers..."
ERM... God, as posited here, is implicitly OUTSIDE the person. Let me pose this: "God" is sho' nuff WITH you, God IS you. God permeates every aspect of the universe, WHETHER WE UNDERSTAND IT OR NOT. Note Well: There is a sure-fire element of CHAOS present:  This Chaos, for lack of a more subtle word, is woven into FREE WILL; this omnipotent ideal of God appears to allow for (little-or)-no accidents. Think of it: NO ACCIDENTS. God as an artist: imagine it - EVERYTHING is cut-and-dried, everything is in-its-place, like a very tidy room (all properly-formed prayers answered...)??? I DON'T THINK SO. Example Given: The beauty of a sunset is all about accident (the most colorful ones tend to be in the places where, ahem, the air is not pristine, IE: it takes in the damage and incorporates it into the WORK.) The real beauty of anything is all about accident. Maybe some are born with a body that does not fit the mind or soul? Work with that accident and make it into something beautiful. (Sometimes this requires sculpting... some may need to add some clay... et cetera)
I feel filled with 'God' most, if not all, of the time. Sometimes when I am faced with 'religious' persons, I really gotta wonder, cart before the horse (paraphrasing Celia, above: scripture vs enlightenment), or what?

God is not a myth. The perception, or, conception, of God is usually the myth.

I believe Humanity is a myth that God struggles with continually.

Hate, poverty, selfishness, cruelty. Oh, where is the Humanity? God struggles to believe in us.

Oh yeah, America is a myth too. A powerful myth that still attracts beautiful dreamers from around the world. God stuggles with humanity and America.

God exists. America will exist too, someday. But because something exists, it does not necessarily mean that we can truly know it.

Many people who struggle with God, do so because they have yet to complete the struggle with themselves. It is good to struggle with your own humanity, when you find it, you'll find God. The ones who are unable to struggle with themselves scream the loudest for God, or claim the loudest that they know God personally.

I don't claim to know God, but I believe there is a God. Someday, I hope to to believe in America too.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I don't mean to be cryptic or weird, but I have no other language for what I want to say.

Is a god a myth?

Okay, this is one of those things where publicly I believe in god, but privately I'm indifferent to the concept.
Being raised Christian has left me superstitious about god.
I certainly don't want to provoke his anger, and stories of hell, fire, torture, and gnashing of teeth frighten me.
So is god a myth?
I don't know, but I surely don't want to invoke his wrath.

Nero

I do believe in God because every time I open my eyes and see the sun shine through the corners of my bedroom window, I also see his face.

tinkerbell

P.S. I've never seen one hundred pounds of gold or a million dollars either but I know these two things exist... right? :)

First off let me start by letting you know I am an athiest, have been my whole life. I was raised, not in an atheist household, but rather one of free will. My mother is agnostic, and my father, born and raised catholic, I think still believes, but I'm not sure because it's not realy a topic that comes up. My parents wanted my sister and me to make our own decision in the matter and have left out their own views, at least in our younger lives, in order to not skew us into folowing what they believe (in respect to gods existance). However, they never failed to be very moral peole and extend those behaviors onto us. ie) treat others as you would want to be treated, not to be prejudice, not to put yourself infront of others...etc.

anyway, as far as the question of the thread, "why do you believe" or in my case not believe, my reason comes down to logic. To me, it makes logical sense that god does not exist, There is no proof, and any "proof" that anyone of faith ever gives me is never proof. But if anyone is able to lay down real, and I mean real proof of gods existance, that would change my thoughts. I have no problem with "god", I have a problem with organized religion, more so those that expect blind faith; and those that claim to be openminded and accepting of everyone when they aren't.

My reason for posting is to say this...
Why should anyone believe? Because it make sense to you. Not because others tell you to, or because a book tells you to. not because of fear of what going to happen if you don't. And definitally not because everyone else does. Believe or not because in your heart in your mind, it all adds up to believe that way.

Hi Elissa:
I respect your opinion and your reasons for not believing in God. 
However, in my case, my reasons for believing in Him have to do with his greatest creation of all, the human being, for  only God could have created such a beautiful and yet complex creature.
God bless

tinkerbell

When I was kid, I continuously wrestled with the "is there a God?" question. I went 'round and 'round with it, looking for proof where there was none, and faith which I didn't seem to have.

(gee, sounds familiar somehow, lol...)

And suddenly, at age 12, I had a sudden epiphany: I just don't CARE. It just suddenly didn't matter to me anymore. I realized I had mistakenly equated the existence of a God with a requirement to worship Him. I decided that dictators weren't my thing, and anyone who would fry me for not pledging my allegience to them wasn't deserving of my loyalty in the first place. So here I was, a little brat of 12, and I literally raised my hands to heaven and proclaimed, "I defy you!" and waited for the brimstone. It was a terrifying moment, but I couldn't stand not being true to myself anymore, I had to be true to my values and morals, and not subjugate them to the perceived threats of a supernatural dictator.

It was a very liberating experience, marking the beginning of a very different quest for the divine...

Elissa and Kate,
For some of us the fear of god is just too ingrained.
Some of us can never break free of superstitions. I have a friend who literally freaks if a black cat runs across his path. He knows it's ridiculous, but still sees black cats as messengers of impending doom.
I don't care whether god is a myth or not. But I am still superstitiously afraid of him.

Nero

Quote from: Nero on June 26, 2006, 01:28:01 PM
I don't care whether god is a myth or not. But I am still superstitiously afraid of him.

Me too, ironically. Even as I type this, I fear his wrath, as I DO respect his power and authority over his particular domain. He is a jealous god, after all.

But we seem to have a shaky truce: I won't attempt to corrupt his followers, and he won't get in my way. It's something of a supernatural "don't ask, don't tell" policy, lol.

One that I'm treading perilously close to the edge of here.

Maybe part of the problem is equating the word "myth" with "doesn't exist." You can either view this world in terms of it's content, or in terms of it's context. Content people worry about facts, about whether things exist or not. For them, a myth is a falsehood, it doesn't exist. Context people worry about meaning and flavour. For them, a myth is as valid as it's meaning, how well it resonates for them.

I needed Ivory soap yesterday to try and kill off some fungus(?) that's infested my jasmine plant. I was in a hurry, and mistakenly text messaged my wife, who was shopping at the time, "GET DOVE FOR JASMINE."

Curiously, my wife still came home with Ivory soap, not the Dove I'd asked for. Why? Because she read what I MEANT, not what I SAID. Like me, she sees metaphor and meaning, symbols and parable in everything around her. Truths, not facts.

She saw the MYTH. Myths resonate. They simultanesouly exist in many places, for many people, in many circumstances. They aren't limited to content, but rather capture and reflect a context, a flavour.

So "does God exist?" makes no sense to me. God IS myth... God is meaning, resonating everywhere, and in everything. In a bizarre way, if God DID exist, he wouldn't be REAL, as he would just be another piece of content in this world of resonating meaning and myth.

Quote from: Kate on June 26, 2006, 02:29:23 PM
He is a jealous god, after all.

Jealousy is a human trait.  I believe the God exists, however, I don't view Him as wrathful at all.  He is a loving God and a creator.  He wants people to peacefully coexist and is disappointed whenever they are not.  He is a forgiving God.  He will not punish you, but instead you will need to deal with natural consequences.  I do not spend all my time worshipping or thinking of Him, but I do try and be a good person as often as possible.

I find that many christians say contradicting things such as "All you need to do is accept Him into your life and you will be saved" and then they turn around and say "You must go to church every Sunday for your weekly brainwashing or you will go to Hell".  I do agree with the first statement, but not the second.

Melissa

Eeep, another touchy subject.

I feel I'm a spiritual agnostic. I believe that there is (probably) something more, but it is unknowable to we as humans. When the time comes to meet our fates, then maybe we will understand. Until that time, I refuse to pretend.
When I was younger, it felt like the more I read of the Bible, the more I attended Church services, the more disturbing and hypocritical the words and actions felt. As a result, there was a time when I was defiantly atheist, but I have come to realize that what I truly detested and opposed wasn't spirituality or the notion of a higher power, but organized religion, especially certain aggressively expansionistic ones.

Organized religion may have its positives, but the message is ultimately carried by people, and all too often people will twist words and ideas to suit their desires. Religion has been used as a tool for control, a reason for hate and prejudice, a cause for wars and violence, and a pedestal for demagogues and dictators. The vices of mankind taints any such religion, especially one that holds so much power and influence. Our own fears, our prejudices, our beliefs, and our desires are reflected in religion, not the other way around. Just look at the religions through the millennia... and while it's easy to say "but my religion is right, it's the truth: the other's are false", if you had been born somewhere else or in another time, wouldn't you be saying the same about something else? About a different set of beliefs and ideas?

So, my personal belief is that true spirituality ultimately is not something that can be taught or come from outside ourselves. But whether or not a higher power exists, that does not preclude us from living the best we can for ourselves and for our fellow human beings.

Just my two cents.

~Kaitlyn

"Whatever God is, if it exists it's above us in the food chain!"

An interesting view - shared by gnostics and vodoun, oddly enough - is that the ultimate god is actually SO far above us, so far removed from the world of ordinary affairs, that it almost doesn't matter whatsoever in a practical sense. It's never addressed or pleaded to, as it's just not listening. Instead, the "gods" we deal with are lower creatures it's created, more human-like, with all the good and bad that implies.

Not just "above" the food chain, but on a completely different chart!

Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhh what the heck...  :)

There is no evidence other than man's word that God exists.  So is god a myth - yep I think so.

Steph :)

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on June 27, 2006, 01:05:51 PM
There is no evidence other than man's word that God exists.  So is god a myth - yep I think so.

Hmmm... cut... insert:

There is no evidence other than people's word that transsexualism exists.  So is transsexualism a myth - yep I think so :)

I like what you said Kate.

QuoteThere is no evidence other than people's word that transsexualism exists.  So is transsexualism a myth - yep I think so

 
A person that is involved in something, according to the current mind-set in our society, is not able to, share what they have experienced as fact; it is invalidated because they have some kind of investment in it.

Here is an example:
It is not credible evidence if a someone who believes in God says that God is real. Even if they say they have had a personal experience with a God. It only there tainted opinion.
So we listen to scientists and other specialists that have not been influenced by or a relationship with someone that believes in God or a religion.
What do the so called experts say? "There is no proof." They invalidate anything the religious people say because it is only there bias opinion. 
So most of these scientists and specialists respond is that God, is not provable, he must not exist. All of the evidence is bias. The so called experts come to the conclusion that it must be a sickness or a weakness in the mind of those who say such things and that they needs to be cured.
Then what is happening is that people who believe in God are though to be a bad influence on society and are hated and feared.

Now let's apply this to the transsexualism.

It is not credible evidence evidence if a someone who believes in transsexual says that transsexualism is real. Even if they say they have had some personal experience with being a transsexual. It only there tainted opinion.
So we listen to doctors and other specialists that have not been influenced by or that had any relationship with a transgender person or the transgender community.
What do the so called experts say? "There is no real proof." They invalidate anything the transsexual people say because it is only there bias opinion.
So most of these doctors and specialists respond is that transsexualism is not provable, it must not exit. All the evidence is bias. The so called experts come to the conclusion that it must be a sickness or a weakness in the mind of those who say such things and that they needs to be cured.
What has been happening is that transgender people are though to be a bad influence on society are hated and feared.

Just my humble option. Oh! I have to admit that I'm bias.  ;D  I am a transsexual and a believer in God.
:)
Jillieann

Quote from: Kate on June 27, 2006, 01:36:35 PM
Hmmm... cut... insert:

There is no evidence other than people's word that transsexualism exists.  So is transsexualism a myth - yep I think so :)

Yep I'm a myth, I've been called a lot of things before, ->-bleeped-<-, ->-bleeped-<-, queer, pervert, gay, but never a myth, that's probably because I'm in your face, I bleed, I'm physical, I can make you bleed :)

I guess that's what I find so hard is that I require physical proof.  I don't fault those who follow some form of religion, cult or what ever else you want to call it, I guess they need someone to blame, but I have witnessed first hand what man does to man in the name of god, and it doesn't matter who's god.  It seems to me that as long as you do it in the name of a god that it makes it right.  Muslims kill christians, christians kill muslims and so on and so on, all in the name of their god, who's god is right.  I'm excluded from most religions, I would be killed in Iran and several other fundamentalist countries for being TS.  The mormons hate me, as do the catholics, methodists, and I just know that Jerry Fallwell would just love to have me as his neighbor.  Ya love thy neighbor as thy self (as long as they believe in the right god, or at least have a large bank account)  Since our gods are so benevolent it would be interesting to find out how many of us are "out" in their church, would their church marry a gay or trans couple with full rights.  I know that Melissa and her spouse where shunned by their church.  The vast majority of churches in Canada wouldn't and the government had to pass legislation that would grant those rights, despite the intolerance of the Church.  I'm an active member of the "Positive Space" GLBT community here, and I know how we are treated.  Who among us here actively fight for the rights of our community to be fully accepted in your church, let alone the community.

Yep you can spout all the wisdom in the world but facts are facts.  I'm pretty cynical especially when religion tramples on my human rights, or they would in my country if they were given the chance.  The religious right is very wrong.

Steph

But, Stephanie, what has religion to do with God? :)

-Celia

Quote from: Stephanie Craxford on June 27, 2006, 08:56:59 PM
The religious right is very wrong.

Gotta love it :)

Almost all the violence you mention is really caused by the monotheistic religions. It's inevitable when you have the One Truth, and focus on the trivia of  facts and history rather than meaning and wisdom.

It's interesting that if you put a siberian shaman, wiccan priestess, austrailian aborigine, american indian, eskimo, african vodoun priest, etc. into one room... they'd all be best pals within minutes. They'd know what they MEANT was more important than what they SAID. It's all about the meaning and lessons the words represent and try to illustrate, and not how to spell them.

Kate :)  I luv ya - but I reckon you are saying what you would prefer to believe rather than what is.

It almost sounds like one of those jokes :

Like as :)  "There was an Indian, an aborigine, a voudon priest and an eskimo in this room and in flys a blowfly.  The Indian bats it away, the Aborigine bats it away, the vodoun priest says "hey stay away from that vat of fresh chicken blood", and the eskimo says " You don't often see many flies in here"
To which the fly replys "I'm bloody well not surprised at the temperature you......^{I know, needs more work :(}

Meanwhile, in the next room the Dali Lama, The Pope, The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem and the Chief Rabbi were discussing theology.

Dali Lama " Sons of Abraham huh! Three Stooges more likely, lets see you talk B/s now with a crushed windpipe.....Haiyeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee Hah"  {Executes a perfect origame kick}

The Pope "My Crozier serves as a nifty disembowelling tool - take that the lot of you, hope you get reincarnated as banana slugs" {swiiiish thunk}

The Grand Mufti "Infidels!!!!  I will have you know my turban is packed with Semtex, let this be a lesson to you" {presses detonator}  "wait,  what have I overlooked he..."  {KABOOOOOM}

The Chief Rabbi was unable to add to the discussion being disemboweled with a crushed windpipe and scattered across a couple of hectares.

Meanwhile,  in the garden outside the Primate of the Anglican Church swings thru the trees eating a banana  "ook ook ook....  iik iik iik"

My contribution to this thread

Rana :)

Teri Anne:

  You wrote: "Unfortunately, that explanation doesn't help me to get to where you are.  Just give me YOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE."

Bottom line.  & am  not interested in anyone's opinion on this, thanks but no thanks!

  Teri Anne the reason Why I believe is because I had A Spiritual Experience and God as you choose to call it revealed his divinity and nature to me during a Vision Quest, Teri Anne. That experinced wiped out any lilngering doubts of smaller experiences. Wheather anyone chooses to bellieve it or not is none of my business and I do not want to know. Dhyana(Zen) meditation experiences also have revealed this Great Mystery. If you need more info please contact me on a 1 to 1.

Love, no matter what, Sheila

I simply believe in GOD because there are so many things in this universe NONE OF US can explain or comprehend.

Chynna

Plus the fact he has a book...I think thats cool

August 2, 2006

Dear fellow Susanites,
Just a short note to let you'all know that, if I don't respond, it's because I'm without an internet connection (unless I go over to the library).  I've been thinking my place would sell soon so haven't had a regular phone (and thus, internet connection).

I'm amazed at the amount of posts to this topic -- I guess this topic, like it has with me, been important to you'all.  I appreciate all the great thoughts, experiences, insights and sharing that everyone has done.  Unfortunately, I'm still, despite my lifetime of trying, never the "spiritual experience" that many of you have experienced...It would, of course, give resolution to this lifelong query and search for "faith."  Regardless, I still, deep in my heart, feel that Something or Someone is out there that created this extraordinarily complex and beautiful world and universe.

Thank you again for trying to help in my spiritual quest.

Teri Anne

Nice to hear from you again Teri.
Was wondering what happen to you.
Glad it wasn't anything serous.
Hope your place sell. And you can get a new internet connection.
I really miss not have you around. You have made me really stop and think more than once.

Back to the topic:

I concure with my sister Chynna. The way everything is put together from the environment to ourselves. It is just so ...so marvolus, so intricic, so complex, so interwoven.  It couldn't have just happened.
Anyway that's the way I see it.

Come back soon Teri Anne.
:)
Jillieann

QuoteYOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE

No matter the stance you take, it is a belief, because noone can possibly know for certain.
If you belief nothing happens and we are all here by happenstance, that is a belief.
It's like if I say, there is this food, that noone alive has ever tasted, it's like, debating over what you think that food tastes like, no matter the answer given, it's a belief.

Regardless of your answer to the question, why do you believe, the answer itself, will be a belief of some sort.  Agnostic's being an exception to this because the agnostic simply says, "I don't know." which, I suppose, is really the only non-belief based answer.

As far as, "why do I believe the things that I do" ?

If I was a christian, I am automatically damned, no matter what, according to how I interpret the scriptures.  Furthermore, if you live for an eternity in heaven or hell, eventually it would be meaningless. Take your favorite thing to do, can you imagine doing it for an eternity? Take 100 things, can you imagine doing those? No matter how many things you do, eventually, after an infinite period of time, you would be bored, and since we are talking an infinite period of time, you would be infinitely bored.  Furthermore, punishment is meant to be a deterent, it is meant to change behavior. Punishment for an eternity, with no chance to change your behavior is not punishment, it's torture.

If I was a buddhist entirely, it would lead to moral relativism. I believe in distinct right and wrong, and I do not think I could sit by as someone was being beaten to death and say, "Well, that's just Karma at work, and I don't want to get my Karma involved"

If I was Jewish, I would be really mad, because, for 'the chosen people of God' they take a LOT of flak in the world. That and I would definately feel like God had abondoned me.

If I was an atheist I would absolutely, with certainty, die by my own hand. The part of me that wants to live looks to those beliefs, looks for validation of those beliefs, and screams, hollars, and yells when I even look at the possibility that we're just here by happenstance, and I can't get that part of me to shut up.

The result of all of this is that
1. I believe in a loving God, and there must be a reason for being here (see why I am not an atheist).

2. I believe kindness to others is important because I want people to be kind to me.

3. I believe that being loving and accepting to others is important because I want people to be loving and accepting towards me.

4. I believe in reincarnation (see why I am not a christian).  It explains some things

Interestingly, the bible comes very close to providing reasons for 1, 2, and 3.
Love the Lord your God with all of your heart and soul.
Love they neighbors as thyself.
From these, all the commandments and laws of the prophets are built.

Most of the rest of it (in my opinion) would better serve the world in a fireplace to heat homes. But those sentences, I think are absolutely vital.

Sorry for the long answer, it's why I believe the way I do.

Hi Jessica,

   I understand what you mean when you say that doing something you love forever and ever would become boring. I don't think there is the concept of 'time' in paradise. I think it would be like the 'Nexus' in the Star Trek Generations movie. You would be experiencing happy moments over and over, but you wouldn't necessarily be aware of time passing. I hate to reference Star Trek again, but on Deep Space Nine, the creatures who lived in the worm hole thought that time was a concept necessary to low level thinking linear Beings (or something like that). So, maybe boredom would not be a problem.

   Hopefully, God would spare everyone the concept of time so that as you eat your 255,497,584,018'th pancake, you would only be aware that you are eating a pancake and are happy and joyous.

   I'm coming down on the side of God existing within each individual. Kind of a wholeness of spirit, body, and mind. I also think you can tell when a person is separate from God.

   Not everyone is aware that God is with them and that is okay because God is translucent, selfless, undemanding, integrated, and unconditional. God is not necessarily mean, however, God expects us to take care of ourselves.

   Concerning Buddhism, there are some branches that believe action is required on the part of the individual.  Buddhism is not necessarily sticking your head in the sand.
   Concerning Judaism, I don't think that Jews need to feel abandonded by thier God. Nothing is easy in life, and over the long haul, things even out. Sometimes people need challenges in order to continue growing and to become self sufficient. I'm not saying that tragedies are good, however, overcoming tragedies is good. Also, there is a deep vein of humor that runs throughout the Jewish communities (from what I can see), and I believe that God supplies humor.
   Concerning Christianity, in my opinion it died with Christ. I love Jesus and the ideas she represents (I believe Jesus was Transgendered), but I cannot follow any of the weird reasoning of many Christian churches. I follow Jesus, but not the Church. However, Jesus is a teacher and not a God. God is God.

   I hope this response is more of a contribution to the discussion than my previous one. I believe that God is represented by many concepts and that individuals are free to choose (or not) the images and ideas that will fit them best and still allow them to grow.


Becky
_{(peering out from behind God's skirt)}

Im a logical, realistic woman
(witth a twisted sense of vulgar humor anyway)
at heart and I had a HS teacher who once told us and Cindi correct me cause ill probably get the measurements wrong. But the nearest star systems to our own solar system is 4.? Light years away. and it takes light 8 minutes to travel from our sun to our planet 8 minutes mind you around 93 million miles....Now if you took that distance and shrunk it so the earth would only be 1 inch away from the sun our NEAREST star system and there are thousands if not millions would still be ruffly 1.8 miles away from us!
So your telling me in a universe as vastly enourmous as that that a supremebeing doesn't exist come on now! Logically one must conclude such an entity MUST exist!

Chynna

Chynna, close enough. There is a lot of space out there and billions of planets.  Since the amino acids, the building blocks of life, are found EVERYWHERE in the universe, it is quite unconceivable that life itself does not exist everywhere.

I wrote a piece on our society's favored religious text.   I'll post it in the chronicles blog for everyone to look at.

I think that the bottom line is this.  You can cite scripture to support just about any opinion. Christ's message was "love thy neighbor".  Upon this commandment were all the others predicated. 

So, "love thy neighbor" doesn't say "love thy neighbor as long as <fill in the blank>"

God ceases to be God when he/she becomes the master of guilt and you are the slave.  God inspires and lifts you up.  Accept that love and inspiration.  Break your bonds of shame and guilt to enjoy your life as you were created to do.

Cindi

Quote from: Chynna on August 08, 2006, 05:29:52 PM
Logically one must conclude such an entity MUST exist!

Spock would not see the logic in this.

I am not interested in beliefs, just proof.

Nothing is better than god
An ice cream cone is better than nothing
Therefore, an ice cream cone is better than god.

Same logic, erroneous conclusion.

Leigh

Quote from: Jessica on August 08, 2006, 01:24:54 PM

QuoteYOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE

No matter the stance you take, it is a belief, because noone can possibly know for certain.
If you belief nothing happens and we are all here by happenstance, that is a belief.

Jessica:
  I like what you have to say and find several points of agreement because you are tapping on the glass ceiling and seems that you sense that the tools to get out of this conundrum of a box are part of the box, sort of like living in a blue world and suspecting that there might be someething like another color or lack of  it but all the tools that you have to analyse it are in blue and mede of blue, I used to believe in blue because i was conditioned to do so (stochoma, excuse the spelling) until i saw red  ;)
perhaps you missed my post or i did not communicated the idea clearly enough ...
The god, Great Mystery, Great Architect of the Universe, Creator,  blah   is not a belief for me, is a reality based on fact.  A personal experience.
  I am speaking for me only and am not interested in converting any one or being logical, is a waste of time.
   The original question from the thread was simple:
" WHY DO YOU BELIEVE IN YOUR GOD OR GODS?  I'd love it if it could be something more than, "I turned to Him in that time of woe and He was there for me."  Unfortunately, that explanation doesn't help me to get to where you are.  Just give me YOUR BOTTOM LINE WHY YOU BELIEVE. "


  In my case, before my experience i believed because i was educated and conditioned to believe, now i do not believe  still, I know but that is another story.
love no matter what, sheila18  :)

Quote from: Leigh on August 08, 2006, 09:55:01 PM

Quote from: Chynna on August 08, 2006, 05:29:52 PM
Logically one must conclude such an entity MUST exist!

Spock would not see the logic in this.

I am not interested in beliefs, just proof.

Nothing is better than god
An ice cream cone is better than nothing
Therefore, an ice cream cone is better than god.

Same logic, erroneous conclusion.

Leigh

That's kind of like:

What doesn't kill me only makes me stronger.
Not lifting weights doesn't kill me.
Therefore, not lifting weights make me stronger.

Melissa

melissa:
nicely done  ;)
sh18

Quote from: sheila18 on August 09, 2006, 12:31:54 AM
melissa:
nicely done  ;)
sh18

I agree.  Logic has no place in religion.  Science and Religion are polar opposites for some reason.

I know that they are very religious people... they keep telling me how I should live my own life.  ;)

Cindi

Quote from: Leigh on August 08, 2006, 09:55:01 PM
I am not interested in beliefs, just proof.

Nothing is better than god
An ice cream cone is better than nothing
Therefore, an ice cream cone is better than god.

Same logic, erroneous conclusion.

Leigh

I was a little apprehensive about reply but here it goes,
If I can use logic then one should use common sense (not saying you didn't) in making there logical conclusions thus, If an individual is lactose intolerant then the ice cream would not be better than nothing..

So the statement being as simple and elusive as it is is highly inaccurate depending on the factors which one is left to assume!

QuoteThat's kind of like:

What doesn't kill me only makes me stronger.
Not lifting weights doesn't kill me.
Therefore, not lifting weights make me stronger.

Melissa,
Your assuming in that statement that strength is dictated by muscle mass or the amount of power and or force one can exert!
Misconception in yet another simple and elusive statement the leaves the reader to assume certain factors that are not clearly defined
Strength in itself can be definable in a number of different ways

By not lifting weights I submit to you I have become stronger!!!

By accepting my body in its current state and muscle mass and not lifting weights to achieve a different body I have gained acceptance and confidence with my own body.therefore became stronger mentally.
Good point right! ;D ;)

Out of the box thinking....Proof and logic has a margin for error or the unknown simply because of the universal constant that Nothing is 100%
Therefore to be logical or have proof of anything you must Factor in that margin of error for the unknown.

QuoteI agree.  Logic has no place in religion.  Science and Religion are polar opposites for some reason.

MMM.... Was not GOD logical according to th book of Gen. ? he had a plan he laid out the plan and excuted the plan insteps seeing the results of each action and seeing "It was good" so if he was indeed logical then logic would have a place in religion...another point can we not find science in the Bible???? Noah built AN ARK 50 cubits wide and 300 cubits long (i believe) measurements sounds like science in religion from my end of the laptop besides polar opposites tend to attract each other if you get my drift!

Quote from: Chynna on August 09, 2006, 10:31:42 AM

QuoteThat's kind of like:

What doesn't kill me only makes me stronger.
Not lifting weights doesn't kill me.
Therefore, not lifting weights make me stronger.

Melissa,
Your assuming in that statement that strength is dictated by muscle mass or the amount of power and or force one can exert!
Misconception in yet another simple and elusive statement the leaves the reader to assume certain factors that are not clearly defined
Strength in itself can be definable in a number of different ways

By not lifting weights I submit to you I have become stronger!!!

By accepting my body in its current state and muscle mass and not lifting weights to achieve a different body I have gained acceptance and confidence with my own body.therefore became stronger mentally.
Good point right! ;D ;)

Out of the box thinking....Proof and logic has a margin for error or the unknown simply because of the universal constant that Nothing is 100%
Therefore to be logical or have proof of anything you must Factor in that margin of error for the unknown.

Chynna, I actually found that on the internet a while ago and just remembered it because I found it interesting.  It's not something I came up with.  But it does demonstrate flawed logic, because you are forced to think in other ways to make any sense of it.

Melissa

   Interesting discussion I hope at the end of this we respect and admire each other more than before otherwise ... 
  Yes, the logic of the example is flawed because the silogisms used to build it are not correct, we all make mistakes and  i don't want to lecture on logic and siogisms (check the wiki if you like) but the discussion itself reveals that no mater how logically or how Zen like kensho insight we use it comes down to conditioning. The thread uses the word Myth  (I love J. Campbell's The Power of Myth)
I remember this in the foreword of a logic book this actually happened to the author who is jewish while at a dinner party (1970's?) he met a colleague of Palestinian nationality and talked about Palestine and how to solve the problem logically.
  The Palestinian Professor asked:  if you were in a sinking cruise ship-liner and you could only rescue either your mother, your wife or your daughter who would you choose to rescue?
  The book author answered without hesitation, " my daughter of course, she is the reason why we struggle and represents our future"
  "wrong" answered the  professor   "the right answer is your mother,   you can always have another wife you can always have more daughters but you can only have one mother"   
...different conditioning ;)  So many religions and so many sects within them.
  I was born into a catholic religion and there were different opinions about the bible, then I checked out LDS and did they have another opinion about JC, then i got saved into a fundamentalist Christian group wow that was totally different, well one evening while in base some Christian people decided to form a group to study the bible, what a disaster, nobody could agree on something as simple as to what salvation is ( please spare me your opinion I know you're right ;)  )  we all were taught,read conditioned, or  to form neologisms with different set of "facts". This facts are agreements only we agree to "believe" that this is true  tie: the big bang and the evolution of the universe to dinosaurs to man took place in 6 standard earth days, or whatever.   1 book & 20 different opinions why? Because there were 20 people. BUt everyone is an expert !  ;D  what a joke is our human condition because we let it happen.
  All of this religions have millions of children born in to them [read brand new memories],  they are logic most of them they understand logic many even are proficient at math and create computer programs and design silicon wafers that become computers, yet when it come to simple things like what really happens after we die, logic fades likes shadows into the dark, or does it? I believe logic is not the problem, bigotry is.

love no  matter what, and strive to connect not divide, sheila18

I don't think that you should involve logic with religion. I believe in Goddess, but I don't believe in that book that man wrote and it was King James version the sixth time around, modified to suit some peoples needs. I believe in Angels and not the ones down in Anaheim Ca. that play ball either. I think that my Guardian Angel save my life the last time I tried to go and be with her. It's all in belief and what you feel makes you feel good about yourself. It's like haveing Dr. Phil in your head and you are talking to him. I'm not saying by any means that good ol Phil is a God. It's about talking to yourself or praying. There are a lot of unexplained things in this Universe and God is one. It is too bad that some have to kill because their God is better than someone elses God.
Sheila

In my opinion if God exists, he/she is a sadist for making transsexuals. Can you imagine the thousands of yeas of us that went crazy or commited suicide because HRT didn't exist? Scary.

                              We exist because we are special. We have always been accepted and even revered through history.  It has only been the past few hundred years that we have been shunned and persecuted.



beth

Shunned and persecuted for bearing the very traights for which the world is most in need.

God is NOT a myth. People can worship many "Gods" but that does not diminish the fact that there is only One Almighty God, Creator of the heavens and the earth. He is a Spiritual being and the Father of the human race. He loves His creation. He is love.

Is that the reason so much that is evil is done in his name? Because God is love?

The reason, I think, that so much evil is done in god's name is that people are, for lack of a better term, STUPID.

Rafe

  I hope I'm not out of line here but God is real and he creates all things for his glory.
  Lazarus was ill and died so that our Lord could be glorified by raising him from the dead. Had the Lord healed him when Mary and Martha first sent for him the greater glory of raising him from the dead would not have happened in that time and season.
  Had there not been evil before the children of Israel they would not have been put to the test to show their love of and obedience to the Lord.
  In like manner; some of us have prayed to be changed and healed to no avail. It has manifested the hardened hearts of others when they see us as well as our unfeigned love of the Lord being what many hate and despise. In a sense the downer side of the marital vows. Worse, sickness, etc...
  Being both male and female some of may actually be blessed more than we think. I may be wrong but I would rather be as the filth of the world and offscouring of all things and have eternal life in Jesus than to have the supposed good life now and end up going to hell because I have never been tempted, frustrated, depressed, or holier-than-thou and look down my nose at others like the pharisee in the parable about the publican and the pharisee.
  I guess I'd rather be a saved transgender than a lost straight person.
  May God bless you.
  Tiffany

Hi   :)
Our concept of god or our faith on God  or lack thereof is not the problem, BIGOTRY  IS THE PROBLEM. that is the source of man's misery not God's existance or disaperance  with proof and solemn oath or without is our insane conclusions.

  A dirt cheap defenition of bigotry is :
ANY COMPTEMPT FOR SOMEONE ELSE'S IDEAS OR DEEDS IS THE FRUIT OF BIGOTRY,  there is no room for empathy in bigotry.

If someone else's ideas annoys you or p's you off ...where did this come from?  a preconceived/ pre educated belief.

How can anyone expect to be understood as a ->-bleeped-<- if that person is intransigent about someone's belief's  ???

consider for a momment: if God is Omni present it means that he is Everywhere   :)

But not in the chair? ok  ...not in the tree? ok  ...not in the car?   ..ok not in the earth? ok   ...not in the air nor space because god is no gas?  ok ...pretty soon god' is nowhere   :D what happened to our premise. Crazy head games
  How about...I don't know ...simple and true.  :D
sheial18

  I may be wrong but I feel that the reason so much evil is done in the name of God is because many start attending church or getting a little spiritual and forget where they came from or that they need mercy like those they ridicule.
  Many churches are training grounds of heresy where people forget the law of Moses made all guilty and Christ fulfilled it to give all who would come to him eternal life.
  It's easy to say transgenders are going to hell when you sit on a pew never having our thoughts, emotions or desires. Let them have them and see how they do. I'm sure they would look more into these things than just condemn themselves.
  Bigotry is a problem that happens both in and out of church. The sad part is that you would think that Christians would understand grace and be a little lest apt to be so bigoted. The word of God does tell us to consider ourselves in all things and not to judge.
  Is God a myth? No. He is real and it is a shame many use his word to teach hatred and judgemental ideas rather than to use it to give others a hope of something better than this life.
  Our Lord always showed compassion on people that came to him for any form of healing or guidance. He didn't just condemn them.
  Tiffany

Quote from: Brianna on September 20, 2006, 07:42:51 PM
Is that the reason so much that is evil is done in his name? Because God is love?

I think the ones that do evil don't know God. They don't know love. The deed done in the so called "name of God" are the God's these "evil" people have made for themselves, to justify their evil deeds.
And as to Sheial18's comment about God being Omnipotent=Everywhere I believe you are right. I don't believe that God is nowhere.....I believe that
GOD IS NOW HERE.

  Even our Lord said that many would come in his name and not be him. There are many that do profess to be Christians and are truly evil. The word of God can be twisted and people manipulated by man when his heart is not right.
  That's one reason I like smaller churches where the preacher works for a living and doesn't worry about getting a lot of people in. He knows each person in his flock and knows what they need to feed them.
  I may be wrong but I think too many are worried about building the church size when they should be concerned with building the spiritual house of each saint that sits on the pews. Not teaching what they want out of fear of losing a tithe. That only leads to a flock that thinks they are better than others and can judge them.
  Build their spiritual house and tell them they need the grace of God like the GLBT community and that they're no better. But that would drive them out and the preacher would have to get a job and support the church himself. And he can't have that; after all, he's "called of God."
  I too believe God is here. He is where his people are. I think He may have quit attending many church services a long time ago though.
  May God bless you.
  Tiffany
Posted on: September 21, 2006, 01:19:06 PM

---

  I hope that I do not appear rude, harsh or arogant. That is not my intention.
  I have noticed over the years a great evil in the church.
  The word of God says the Lord delights in a just weight and an equal balance. It seems as though the churches today do not have that equal balance anymore.
  On one end of the balance of faith/works and grace/obedience you see churches that have turned the grace of God into lasciviousness. They traipse straight out of church to the bar and live as they wish with no concern of what our Lord may think. They just kind of justify evil with that I'm ok, you're ok attitude that makes everybody precious in the eyes of God.
  On the other end there are the works oriented ones that make the way so strict nobody can make it. They are the ones that have forgotten that they too need grace and that they have no room to judge others.
  Since the TV preachers came about in the late 70's and early 80's many of the small churches have closed and many preachers have started following the patterns and teachings of the TV preachers to keep flocks.
  Think about this. If you are a child of God and minister on the internet just sharing the word of God to the best of your ability your ministry costs whatever your cable bill is. Chances are you can pay for it with your job and household expenses. You can pray for those who ask for prayer and share a word.
  Chances are your intentions are admirable and God is actually with you.
  Why do these masters of heresy need millions of dollars to do what you do?
  Probably because as a citizen that goes about your day to day life you don't want a private jet like they lust after. You may not want the pomp and glory of having people watch you on TV. Your old beater car may be good enough to get you to work. Which , by the way, is a part of "going into all the world to preach the gospel" that they should try.
  Is God a myth? I guess the unbelieving world thinks so. But you have to expect that. The shame is when Christians and the kings of these supercenters of heresy make such a mockery of the word of God that both believer and unbeliever alike starts to ask this question.
  May God bless you.
  Tiffany

excellent! :)   i know that you believe that god is everywhere
the question is for those who make the same claim:   
IF God is everywhere "a fortiori" (with greater reason, an old roman principle of law,  if you can bench press 300 lbs "a fortiore" you can lift 25 lbs)

so if God can do the imposible of being everywhere, then a fortiore he can be IN you and also IN sinners, follow me,   :D  go ahead is ok to choke, i know it can be a lot to chew.   :)

that is the old & secret revelation.not so secret bUT EASY TO RECEIVE AS A GIFT OF GRACE. 

so if god is everywhere,  why argue, there is nothing left to do but love as someone  so correctly posted, even sinners ...i guess there is nothing to save then .... :D  sorry  ...just consider it  :)

  ...if god is everywhere and he came to save us then everything is already saved, what!?  what are we to save,  god?   ;)

  now if this takes away our job ...we can get a better job by celebrating.

this views are not just my own though they have been revealed to and thousands of others they are doctrine and well know and established.
  but intellect cannot wrap its arms around it ...
love no matter what, sheila

Dear Tiffany,

Is the Flying Spaghetti Monster a myth? I guess the unbelieving world thinks so. But you have to expect that. The shame is when Christians make such a mockery of the word of the Flying Spaghetti Monster that both believer and unbeliever alike starts to ask this question.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless you, in return. :)
Brianna

PS- I also think the Flying Spaghetti Monster delights when we spread his teachings on the Internet. You can be touched by his noodly apendage at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

tiffany:
no you are not appearing rude to me, i believe that you believe. And i respect that and admire your courage of conviction, and you are always welcome to have a dialogue.

I used to study the Bible seriously 3 hrs a day at least.  One day I clearly saw that there was a difference between what JC gave an example of how to live (wich is found in the 4 gospls) and the hatred practiced by the Bible belivers around me, I remember at that point Jesus rejecting the law as a way of life for HIM,   wow he rejected the Bible.  The more I studied Jesus words the more I discovered how unimpressed he was with the Law(old testament)
well 1200 years later some king thousands of miles away ruler of a nation of mostly ignorant people decided to equate the commentaries of Jesus words with the Tora and made this Spagetti  :D soup of what Jesus rejected mixed with Jesus words ( Before you get upset, please Read his words 4 Gospels not the notes in your Bible class but JC's actual words,ok) that became the Bible.
   My son has been influenced by his mother who is christian and is constantly angry and fumming about sinners and alll that stuff i used to fume about because i learned it in Bible study class Not the Bible but the preachers of it.

So i ask my son:
-Are you a Christian
-Yes dad i am
- are you a follower of Christ or the Bible Chose one
- they are the same
-ok, what do you believe is more important , the words of christ or the comments of his words?

of course silence, aculturization is the most effective way to dominate people

  Tiffany My point is that you have a right to express your self her and anywhere and be respected, I do not take offense by what you say, is a dialogue  the corollary applies, that you be patient and open  to other's views as others should be with you...do unto others  as.... blessed are the meek ...at al
you are always welcomed here, thank you for listening to by babble.

sheila18

Quote from: Tiffany2 on September 21, 2006, 03:35:43 AM
   Is God a myth? No. He is real and it is a shame many use his word to teach hatred and judgemental ideas rather than to use it to give others a hope of something better than this life.
 

Whoops, I saved it without putting in my comment.  Blond moment.

I agree with you in this statement Tiffany2

Sarah L.

Brianna: I'm sorry but I don't know a lot about the flying spaghetti monster. I'l have to read up on this. But you have my condolences if the unbelievers have angered you by bringing forth doubts about it's existance.

Sheila18: I do try to be patient and open to other people's views. I hope that my post didn't appear contrary to that. If so; I am sorry. I do get tired of Christians using scripture to judge others and condemn them. That was the basic point of what I tried to say. When the Lord fulfilled the law it gave him the right to judge and no man.

Sarah Louise: Thank you.

Quote from: Brianna on September 22, 2006, 11:13:31 AM
Dear Tiffany,

Is the Flying Spaghetti Monster a myth? I guess the unbelieving world thinks so. But you have to expect that. The shame is when Christians make such a mockery of the word of the Flying Spaghetti Monster that both believer and unbeliever alike starts to ask this question.

May the Flying Spaghetti Monster bless you, in return. :)
Brianna

PS- I also think the Flying Spaghetti Monster delights when we spread his teachings on the Internet. You can be touched by his noodly apendage at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

RAmen

Quote from: Tiffany2 on September 20, 2006, 10:39:02 PM
   I guess I'd rather be a saved transgender than a lost straight person.

Tiffany, that is a great point.  In retrospect I can see how God has used the pain & struggles associated with being trans to ultimately grow/strengthen my character and faith.  His love and glory have been made more real to me through all of this.  I asked questions and found answers that I didn't expect.  In finding I had nothing I cared to live for here on earth, I turned to God with nothing left, and in doing so, rediscovered the Person who fulfills like nothing else.  There is a song by Chris Tomlin called "Enough" that goes, "All of you / is more than enough for all of me / for every thirst and every need / you satisfy me with your love / and all I have in you / is more than enough.  More than all I want / more than all I need / you are more than enough for me / More than all I know / more than all I can see / you are more than enough for me."  I look forward to heaven, where we will no longer struggle with trans issues, but more than that, the glory of God will be such an indescribable treasure that we will be SO thankful for everything that got us to that point - including the hard times, which will seem negligible in comparison.

Thanks for your posts.
Joseph

Tiffany2 and Joseph,

First of all, I respect your right to hold these views. I respect that you find comfort in this, and I would in no way try to dissuade you from these beliefs.

But - I have to tell you. I am starring at what you have said trying to comprehend how you could have this perspective. I don't understand how you can find meaning in the ideology of the people that hate us and want to oppress us.

It's easy for me to understand how the "straights" (my nickname for non-gays and non-transsexuals) come to hold your viewpoint. They never have to think about difficult things. A propagandist concept like "getting saved" is probably emotionally seductive. It's easy for me to understand why one of the straights would believe in a magical person that magically forgives things that are magically wrong for magical reasons.

But - it's very hard for me to understand how you can be the same thing I am, have faced the same difficulty, and have not come to the conclusion that it's all just a big lie.

For that, I will tip my hat and congratulate you. You understand a part of the human condition that is utterly beyond my comprehension. I hope that your unique viewpoint lets you give comfort to transsexuals that share your point of view.

Hugs,
Bree

I understand what Joseph said about being saved;

QuoteI turned to God with nothing left, and in doing so, rediscovered the Person who fulfills like nothing else.

However, I have experienced it from a spiritual/psychological point of view rather than a spiritual/religous one. I finally emptied myself of all of the garbage I was carrying and was filled with the spirit. In my case, however, the person wasn't "God", but myself.

   I tore at the fabric of my psyche and pulled away the self hatred, the self doubt, and, the blinders that prevented me from knowing myself. I basically jetisoned the person who I thought I was and replaced it with the person who I used to be as a child and who I should be as an adult. The process was a hellish undertaking as many of you are aware.
   But there is no religion in what I now know as God, though, perhaps ironically, I've joined a local church since. It is the result of getting my conscious self and my unconscious self aligned and communicating together the way they should be.
   I believe in God. I believe in the power of the universe. I believe that it is the energy of the universe combined with the grace and complexity of the human mind that allows people to believe in God.

   God really is everywhere and in every thing. God is a part of every bad person as well as every good person. God can't be blamed for the actions or inactions of people because God created the human mind and God allows that human mind to struggle in the same way that flies struggle against spiders and antelope struggle against lions or other predators. People struggle against the climate, against hunger, against disease, and even against thier own nature. People struggle as individuals, as families, and as communities, and so on. If it weren't for struggle, the human race would still be apes (which I would take as a blessing).
   The struggle never ends. Even when a person finds thier true self and has passed through the biggest struggles of their lives, they still have more struggling to do. Having to be strong enough to overcome or to endure adversities is a gift that one can give to one's self and then use for the betterment of others.
    My point is that God is not a myth. God is true and is with every single one of us. But God is not a fairy godmother whose job is to make everything better all the time. God is the same energies that holds this universe together while also trying to tear it apart. This may sound contrary, but that is the nature of God.


   I apologize for being long winded and I have no intention of trying to convert anyone. I also hope that this post makes sense to someone else (if not me). I also hope I don't come across as crabby. This whole topic is a concept that really needs about 2 years and 2 million words to get across properly.

Hmmm my reply, course I'm quite chatty so i do not want to write a book here...
examples first:
On a recent hiking trip there was an image left on my digital camera (basically a person or somthign human like standing there) in a rock path i had just walked through.  I discovered the image later the following week.  Scared, weirded out, etc.  Although i choose to believe it is one of my guardian angels, ironically i believe while hikng i was reaching out to my angels in emotional voice in my head during that specific area of hiking.  One instance I have dozens.  My personal trauma or "attempt" was quite savage (shooting) and i was self determined to not be around, guess what?  1999 was a long time ago it seems?  The doctors all said milimeters this way and that but all professed without deeming divine intervention that in all certainty i should had died fairly immediatly.  No real reasons why i didn't or survive to regain almost 100% health back either?
I once maybe a year prior to that layed on my bed with a gun to my head in a terrible slump and as i was laying there i thought why not now?? I cocked the slide back placed the gun to my temple, and in races my boxer from another room of the house literally (I mean she did this exactly) jumped on me and basically pushed her head up to my face putting her head in between me and the gun!  I cried that night i remember and i have not really cried much through all these years of struggle.
So after some harsher examples I say this:
I believe in a god and a kingdom / and or some sort of next life reincarnation.
I was raised protestant but do not practice or worship in a church i worship with God in my own way that does not require me to attend a church or formal get together or "worship" primarily due to the fact that regardless of good intentions the people in my community/church would not openly and objectively accept me for who i am or what i am.  I remember one of the last outreaches i had in 1999 prior to trying suicide I sat and visited with a priest well two actually (i think in the same week) and they both condemned what i was planning and said God would condemn me (now here's me thinking sorry father but it seems I'm already condemned in this life does it not?-that was my logic not his) anyway they condemned the thought or purpose of my actions and had no answer or resolution to my issues.  so much for putting stock into that specific arena!
I pray a lot almost everyday praying i mean talking i ask God or my god for many things have little to offer not much to go forward with but somehow he's managed to carry me this far somehow???
My angels i believe are paramount in this.  Months after my accident i was back to work, travelling as a manager / trainer and i woke one night in a hotel room to see this thing (human like) sitting on my dresser / croaching or perching somehow but it was human like.. I was scared i fled under my covers and did not sruface until daylight!  that was and is my angel michael.. sounds a little far fetched but there that is about my angels, I've grown to know two more in my life by name!  I pray and ask them of things as plainly as i'd talk to another person in life with them i can shed deeper thoughts and such!
Why do i believe, well i used to use a lot of the older logic "why not believe" what if there was or is a judgement day or book of life he reads from?  ooops then he (God) would know in my heart by judging me i was a fake and i would be cast down anyway?  ears of stumbling around denying some religion and stuff.  I think i have found some peace religiously:  I think God in all his wisdom and perfection created a world he could own, one that grew of its own and really one he could not ultimately completely control in all aspects.  Sort of like growing a tomato plant you plant the seed, water it, expose it to all the right things but the plant will take on its own life regardless.  Well the world and the people in it has certainly taken on their own lives have they not???
Pitty us when God does recall his planet and cerations and what we as people have done!  so anyway that in my thinking somehow explains why things happen and do not always happen whey there are miracles and senseless deaths...Wars and killing, and babies dying, and bad people becoming great, leaders, icons, poor people left deserving...  I think maybe in this life mine is what mine is in the next or what i pray for a peaceful end to my plight there will just be peace and rest no internal turmoil. 
I think anyone gender wise will agree with the everyday haunting of the feeling of just not being right or whole.  this is a terrible terrible prison and scar to have on ones inside.  I ask God all the time have not recieved my answer of as yet i challenge him but do not demand of him. 
I guess in a short booklet of writing this is what and why i believe!
Ricki

  I don't wish to appear gross, arogant or holier-than thou but I have found that unlike what we would prefer it is pain that brings forth life.

  When my female friends and relatives traivailed with labor pains life came forth. It was in their agony that another child came into the world.

  When soldiers overseas gave their lives and their bodies were ripped apart by shrapnel or whatever and those who survived came home minus limbs it is a constant reminder to me that their pain and loss of life has given me another day to live and the freedom to worship my Lord.

  When our Lord hung on that cross he was beaten beyond recognition and fulfilled the very law that some use to condemn us. That love that he had was an example to me. In giving his life he gave me life.

  I can see the examples in women suffering in childbirth and soldiers that have been maimed and died.

  I guess I would rather use the word of God that I see fulfilled around me with modern examples to try to help others believe. Being transgender is hell at times. We all know that. But at least we can see what our Lord went through for us and cherish his love knowing we have faults that others condemn as they take being straight for granted.

  When I look into the old testament I see prophets and great men and women of God that suffered reproach from all around them. They were slaves, afflicted and destitute.

  In the first chapter of Daniel we see it was the master of the eunuchs that kept Daniel. Not exactly a good place for a straight man. I sometimes wondered if he was straight with desires towards females how he suffered being castrated?  And then he was the one that was thrown in the lion's den later.

  Dear Jeremiah was in the court of the prison and when he spoke the word of God was taken from the court and thrown into the dungeon in the mire. He was near dead when he was pulled out.

  The list could go on but I do believe that many that suffered greatly did so to fulfil types and shadows of our Lord as well as to fulfil a testament. It was their pain and suffering that brought forth the Christ of God that would suffer to give us eternal life.

  Many may have it too good and too easy in this life. They may sit in church and take salvation for granted and look down their noses at people like us. One day they may very well regret having had it so good. It was the rich man that went to hell while Lazurus went to Abraham's bosom.

  As for me; I find being transgender a blessing. I know I need our precious Lord's mercy. I know I can never be good enough on my own. Those facts stare back at me from the mirror every day. Those facts are in some of the clothing I wear and in the thoughts I have. I can't forget that I will never be saved by my own merits or take the breaking of our Lord's body for granted.

  He was my example. He said "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do." He could have just called for the angels to take him home.

  Since he loved us enough to go through what he did and pray for us who am I to harden my heart because I'm transgender? I just hope that others can see the hope laid up in heaven for those afflicted in this life. It was the poor that heard him gladly and the common people.

  May God bless you.

  Tiffany

is god a myth. now thats a good question for myself the answer is yes god does. for many years i have followed the teachings of the good red road and it has truly been a wonderful experience. from holding a wood chip in my hands that was glowing with all the colors of a bright summers day to being able to raise my pipe in a sacred way for the people around me, god has truly blessed my life. though this is part of the answer that i have found for myself. in the searching that i have done over the years, i have found that god is different to everyone and that it is up to each of us to find that place with in ourselves that god has inscribed gods name.                      stacey ann

aho mitakuye oyashin

aho mitakuye oyashin and namaste

I think I finally figured out what I wanted to say;

God is not a myth.
God is a part of me.
when I denied god, I denied myself.
During that time, my life was empty except for a grotesque & agonizing pain.
When I accepted myself, I accepted god.
my life is full, rich, and very curious now.
God and I are as one.

Amen


P.S.
   If you deny God then you deny me. I guess this is your right, but it may hurt my feelings. :)

Well, it's been a long time since I checked into this post.  I'm amazed that there have been over 9000 reads.  Wow. 

I was just wondering if anyone had read the two recent New York Times best sellers:

(Prices per Amazon.com)
   
The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins (Hardcover - Sep 18, 2006)
Buy new:  $27.00 $14.85   Used & new from $12.85
Get it by Tuesday, December 5, if you order in the next 38 minutes.
Other Editions: Audio Download

Letter to a Christian Nation by Sam Harris (Hardcover - Sep 19, 2006)
Buy new:  $16.95 $9.32   Used & new from $7.99
Get it by Tuesday, December 5, if you order in the next 38 minutes.
Other Editions: Audio CD

I'm still not really sold either way but I found them both interesting.  Through reading the specifics of the Bible (as related in these two books), I am even more upset at how cruel, murderous and bigoted some of the Bible (especially the Old Testament) authors and stories were.  I could not, as an example, imagine that, if a new bride is found by her new husband to not be a virgin, she should be killed in front of her father.  This is the type of thing that people have said the Koran had in it...and now, I find, the Bible's Old Testament does also?  Such cruel passages should be eliminated or, at least, specifically disavowed by ALL organized religions.  To me, it's like the Pope apologizing for not speaking out against Hitler's Nazi Germany -- A good act.  Now, draw lines through all the stuff you, as a religious authority, feel are cruel and not what your religion is about.  Someone once said that religion is good for good people and bad for bad people.  There are stories in the Bible that can be used by either side to prove arguments.  That's not a good concept.

It's also worrisome that there are over 5000 DIFFERENT OLD WRITTEN versions that have been discovered of the New Testament -- apparently, monks and copyists did not always copy the New Testament correctly.  It makes me recall the coal mine accident in the USA last year where 7 men were trapped in a collapsed mine.  A mine official thought that he heard something like "all 7 are alive."  It lead people of that community to celebrate that the miners were safe...until it was discovered that someone had mis-heard and only one miner was alive, barely.  It's these kinds of occurences in MY LIFE that make me ponder how much something written many many centuries ago could be correct and relied upon.

Both books also discuss that children should not be referred to as "Christian children" or "Muslim children."  Anyone under the age of about nine really does not have the life experience to make such a very important judgement as to which religion they should belong to.  Children should be referred to as "children of Christian parents" or "children of Muslim parents," not "Christian children" or "Muslim children."  The books also point out that what you believe is dependent on WHERE you are born.  If you are born in Greece in ancient times, you believe in Zeus.  If you grew up in ancient Viking times, you'll probably believe in Thor.  If you are born in certain parts of Asia, you'll most likely be Hindu, Budhist or, these days, Muslim.  If you are born in a certain part of Africa, you might believe that Chu Chu of the Mountain is your God. 

With the threat of living in Eternal Hell after death, Christians sometimes ask, "What if you're wrong about your religion?"  They can't imagine that a Muslim or Jew would find it equally incomprehensible to change religions.  One of the authors asks, "What if the REAL answer is that Chu Chu of the Mountain is God?" 

There was a "South Park" (cartoon) episode a few years ago wherein various denominations of Christians were complaining to the Devil about ending up in Hell:  "Hey, wait a second!  I'm Baptist.  And, I'm Episcopal.  We shouldn't be here!"  The Devil's assistant responds, "Oh, I'm sorry.  The correct answer was 'Mormon.'  Yes, Mormon."  Though I envy that people are able to choose the CORRECT religion, I'm afraid that I've always been a suspicious show-me-the-definitive-proof kind of person.  While the proof that exists undeniably works for most people, I just haven't found the right stuff to make me choose a specific religion.  And, too often mixed in with the written things, there is too much bad stuff -- things that we're supposed to selectively ignore, I'm told by some religious folk.

I still feel that, even without definite proof, the intelligent design concept leads me to believe that there is some type of higher power out there. Both authors knock the intelligent design thing as being unscientific and an emotional choice.  Well, I guess that, like love (something else that can't be proven), I'll just have to admit that, emotionally, the intricate beauty of things in nature sway me.  I realize that IT'S LOGICAL that it's taken at least 56 million years to get here via evolution and that Darwin says things in nature get better and more perfect via time.  Time, even milleniums, don't cut it for me.  Things, especially the human body, are TOO beautiful and complex.

Call me silly, but that's my argument -- for.

Teri Anne

  I personally believe what 2 Corinthians 5:7 says. For we walk by faith, not by sight.
  If I had to see God to belive in God I wouldn't have faith. And that is what pleases God.
  Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him: for he that cometh to God must believe that he is, and is a rewarder of them that diligently seek him.
  But that's just my opinion.
  Tiff

Hi Teri Anne,  :)

  sigh... lol.  I'm laughing at myself because discussing religion (or politics) is one of those things where you can go round and round forever with someone, both be blue in the face, and not have reached any sort of resolution.  Especially on an impersonal forum such as this when you don't really "know" someone.  It's sad that I know better and I still choose to reply. heh.

Unfortunately, I haven't read those two books, though I've heard of them; I have about 10 books on my reading list right now as it is. =P  However, I can still comment on Christianity.  Unfortunately I'm providing short replies on topics where whole books have been written.  But my purpose isn't to provide complete answers, only to note that to understand a worldview you have to understand the foundation of it, i.e. come to a good starting point.  If you don't, you have no hope of understanding why people embrace it. (And note, I'm not using "you" to mean you specifically, it's the general "you".)

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 04, 2006, 05:40:48 PM
Through reading the specifics of the Bible (as related in these two books), I am even more upset at how cruel, murderous and bigoted some of the Bible (especially the Old Testament) authors and stories were.  I could not, as an example, imagine that, if a new bride is found by her new husband to not be a virgin, she should be killed in front of her father.  This is the type of thing that people have said the Koran had in it...and now, I find, the Bible's Old Testament does also?  Such cruel passages should be eliminated or, at least, specifically disavowed by ALL organized religions. 

Many people think humanity is great.  We're decent creatures and there's a lot of good in us.  There may be some bad apples, but you try to do all the nice things you "learned in kindergarten" and you'll be on Santa's "good" list.  If you try to interpret Christianity from that framework, you won't get very far.  If God is as holy and glorious as the Bible describes, and we have committed the infinitely heinous crime of valuing/choosing something else over God, we are terrible criminals deserving infinite punishment.  The amount of explanation and thought that can go into that previous sentence isn't worth trying to type out here.  Suffice to say that good behavior doesn't get us a shorter sentence.  See, we humans tend to judge ourselves by comparing ourselves to others. Sure, I may be "more decent" and have more kudos points than Hitler, but if I'm a 9 and he's a 2, math class still teaches that all finite numbers approach zero as you approach infinity.  God says to "be holy as I am holy," and we don't have enough kudos points to meet that standard of perfection. The message the Bible is trying to convey is that God is infinitely glorious and our purpose is to glorify Him by enjoying His riches forever, but we chose something else instead, "falling short" of His glory.  Unfortunately God is also the holy and righteous judge, who can't leave crimes unpunished and there's no jail sentence long enough to "make things right."  We deserve the death penalty.  Hence our need for a savior.

At this point, I'm sure many will say something like, "well, I choose to see the good in people, thank you very much."  Fine.  So does God.  But you wouldn't excuse a mass murderer because he's a pleasant bridge player.  What I've said may grate on people's sensibilities about human nature, but if it does, it illustrates why we can't have a coherent conversation about Christianity, and why I had to laugh at myself when I started this post.

Anyhow, on to what you wrote.  The old testament, by the way, is the law that brought death.  It was meant to help illustrate why we need a savior.  Because we're not able to keep it.  Against the backdrop of our offenses against God, all the terrible things described in the old testament are like the tickling of a leaf compared to the lashes of a whip.  However, I have to agree with C.S. Lewis here, who said something to the effect of "do I understand this theologically? Yes.  But emotionally it's still a heart-wrenching thing to accept."  I feel similarly towards the thought of hell.  But if you can imagine our justice system putting a family member in jail for murdering someone, it's the same feeling - somber regret, but acknowledgment that the justice system was not wrong in doing so.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 04, 2006, 05:40:48 PM
It's also worrisome that there are over 5000 DIFFERENT OLD WRITTEN versions that have been discovered of the New Testament -- apparently, monks and copyists did not always copy the New Testament correctly.]

Well, when you say it like that it sounds worrisome.  :D But you should also point out that the largest number of variants are errors in spelling and make no difference to the meaning of the text.  The second largest group of variants are variations in word order which also make no difference in meaning.  Also, the ~5,400 Greek manuscripts were not 5,400 versions of Matthew through Revelation.  Some of these manuscripts were only a few verses or chapters.  Ok, you got me typing out of a book now... but I like this quote by Frederic Kenyon - "No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading...It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain... especially with the New Testament.  The number of manuscripts.... of early translations from it, and of quotations from it in the oldest writers of the Church, is so large that it is practically certain that the true reading of every doubtful passage is preserved in some one or other of these.... This can be said of no other book in the world."  I won't go into all the statistics, but it's often shared that the NT has a huge number of ancient copies with relatively few lines in doubt - 24,000 manuscripts, counting very early translations, with only 40 lines that are in doubt (i.e. ambiguous), as opposed to, say, the second in line as far as ancient texts go, Homer's Iliad, which has 600+ ancient copies and 700+ lines in doubt.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 04, 2006, 05:40:48 PM
Children should be referred to as "children of Christian parents" or "children of Muslim parents," not "Christian children" or "Muslim children."  The books also point out that what you believe is dependent on WHERE you are born. 

Children with true faith aside, personally I don't consider this a stumbling block.  Another point where we probably clash is this notion that you can't control where you are born and it's all random.  But Christianity espouses a sovereign God who is in control of, among other things, the time and place of your birth.  This is not the time to get into a free will vs. predestination discussion, but there's this notion in Christianity that God is in control, and yet humans are still responsible for their decisions.  It's something we can't understand because we are within time whereas God is outside time.  It's like a 2-dimensional person trying to understand something in 3 dimensions.  A reading of Romans 9, among other passages, emphasizes that God has indeed prepared some vessels for glory and some for destruction.  Some highlight his mercy while others highlight his justice.  Again, the theology vs. emotion thing kicks in here.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 04, 2006, 05:40:48 PM
With the threat of living in Eternal Hell after death, Christians sometimes ask, "What if you're wrong about your religion?"  They can't imagine that a Muslim or Jew would find it equally incomprehensible to change religions.  One of the authors asks, "What if the REAL answer is that Chu Chu of the Mountain is God?" 
...
And, too often mixed in with the written things, there is too much bad stuff -- things that we're supposed to selectively ignore, I'm told by some religious folk.

Well, just from a "one of these things is not like the other" standpoint, the thing that sets Christianity apart from other religions is this notion that you can't work your way to heaven.  It's one of the reasons why I think if any religion is the right one, it's this one.  (And as you can probably tell, I don't think you're supposed to selectively ignore the parts you don't like.) If there is such a thing as an incomprehensibly awesome being (to paraphrase Dawkins from his latest appearance in Time magazine) out there, there's nothing I can do to deserve its fellowship, and if I have offended it, there's nothing I can do to make it up to it.  The need for God to intervene, i.e. a savior, comes up again.  Christianity isn't a prescription of how to be moral enough so that you get presents from some cosmic Santa, it's telling you that you're in a burning building and God is there to catch you if only you will trust him enough to jump out the window.  The reason why I am a Christian is similar to the reason I buy insurance.  I know I'm not perfect enough to avoid causing a wreck and end up in a hole of debt that I can't pull myself out of.  I recognize my imperfection as a reality, and fortunately our government gives us a way to avoid paying thousands when we crash our cars.  So I'm going to take it.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 04, 2006, 05:40:48 PM
I still feel that, even without definite proof, the intelligent design concept leads me to believe that there is some type of higher power out there. Both authors knock the intelligent design thing as being unscientific and an emotional choice.  Well, I guess that, like love (something else that can't be proven), I'll just have to admit that, emotionally, the intricate beauty of things in nature sway me.  I realize that IT'S LOGICAL that it's taken at least 56 million years to get here via evolution and that Darwin says things in nature get better and more perfect via time.  Time, even milleniums, don't cut it for me.  Things, especially the human body, are TOO beautiful and complex.

Call me silly, but that's my argument -- for.

Teri Anne

You're not silly.  Glimpses of true beauty are awe-inspiring... they sometimes bring me to tears.  And in my worldview, they're only a hint of what is to come.

Joseph

Nice to see you Teri Anne!


_{P.s. ignore the religions and find your truth anyway, thinks I.}

Headline on Drudge this morning:

Follow God or vanish, Ahmadinejad tells West
http://www.breitbart.com/news/2006/12/06/061206101357.8mjamnal.html

Of course he's talking about the Muslim god, not the Christian god.  Christians think
they're right, Muslims think they're right, neither can see how ridiculous and untenable
this situation is.  By definition there can be only one God.  The bible is the word of god,
the Koran is the word of god--someone is wrong here and Christians and Muslims have
pointed the finger at each other over mountains of dead bodies created by religious
strife throughout the ages.  All this ignores all the other religions who feel they truly
know the mind of God--as if that were possible.

I believe in God.  Religion is mythology, nothing more.  So the Christian god, the Muslim
god, and all the other gods--you know, like Thor and Poseidon--these are all fairy tales.

Dawn

One's definition of God can create debate, doubt, confusion or comfort.  But when you look to the skies on a starry night and see it goes on forever, when you stand atop a mountain and see the vast beauty before you, when you dive into the sea and watch the fish dart in and out of the coral reef do you wonder if God is a myth?

If you believe in the Big Bang do you ever wonder what there was before it?

If you believe the universe is finite, what is on the other side?

If you believe physical death is the end of our being, who created us at birth?

Is God a myth?  By man's definition, maybe so.  But when you look at all around you, when you try to fathom infinity, when you try to find the beginning or the end, it's hard to believe there isn't a greater power.

Julie

Hi everyone --

TIFFANY -

You wrote, " If I had to see God to belive in God I wouldn't have faith. And that is what pleases God. Hebrews 11:6 But without faith it is impossible to please him"

Perhaps I've seen too many bunco crime shows on NBC's Dateline.  Bunco artists ask you to believe a scenario (like you'll get money if you deposit $2000 with them).  Many old ladies take their life savings on FAITH that they'll be rewarded.  Ministers ask, 2006 years after Jesus' appearance, for us to believe that there is a Heaven, a Hell, A God, a son Jesus and a Holy Ghost.  All we have to do it put money in the basket and we will be rewarded with everlasting life (something that, like a bunco scheme, sounds too good to be true).  I'm sorry that bunco schemes have made me suspicious.  Some might say that to believe ANYTHING on FAITH is one definition of the word "gullible."  How can God expect me, as a rational being, to be able to sort the FALSE SCHEMES from HIS STORY?  Faith?  It's a shame that he will apparently punish me severely for my suspicious nature.  Hopefully, my God will forgive this and be satisfied that I simply believe in a higher power.

JOSEPH -

Though some of my answers below sound critical, I don't mean them to be.  Unless I'm honest with my responses, I don't think I can get to the place most Christians reside.  You brought up Hitler at one point in your discussions.  I found it interesting to read recently that Hitler was religious (believed in God) and that eradicating Jews, in his mind, was all part of doing God's work.  While you say that we can't earn our way to Heaven, hopefully God will take into account that BELIEF IN HIM should not be nearly as important as doing GOOD WORKS.  At least, that's the way I'd like to think MY God is.  Last I checked, President Bush is a pretty strong believer also.  It's strange to me how some religious folk feel it's okay to kill people some of the time by dropping "smart" bombs from 25,000 miles up.  I would prefer a religion which states THOU SHALT NOT KILL and there'd be no small print with exceptions.

JOSEPH, you wrote, "I feel similarly towards the thought of hell.  But if you can imagine our justice system putting a family member in jail for murdering someone, it's the same feeling - somber regret, but acknowledgment that the justice system was not wrong in doing so."

Again, I'd hope that BELIEF IN HIM, on the scales of justice, is not as important as going out and "murdering someone."

JOSEPH, you wrote, "No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading...It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain... especially with the New Testament."

When you say, "especially," does that mean that there are some fundamental doctrines in the Old Testament that are out of date and/or untrue?  If so, why not do what the lawyers do, draw lines through the ones that should not be read?

JOSEPH, you wrote, "Another point where we probably clash is this notion that you can't control where you are born and it's all random.  But Christianity espouses a sovereign God who is in control of, among other things, the time and place of your birth.  This is not the time to get into a free will vs. predestination discussion, but there's this notion in Christianity that God is in control, and yet humans are still responsible for their decisions."

What about a tribe in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in the 1800's that has no outside contact with Christians, or anyone?  Do they die an eternal death in Hell because they were blessed with being born in wrong locale?  What about the tribes in Africa who believed in Chu Chu of the mountain?  Or the American Indian tribes?  You say that "it's like a 2-dimensional person trying to understand something in 3 dimensions."  Gee, so I should believe in something I don't understand?  I think the definition of that is "blind faith."  If that is truly what God is expecting, he'll get an awful lot of gullible people (I'm not talking about you) and, by definition, eliminate me.  I don't think that's a very nice God.  Just my thinking.

JOSEPH, you wrote, "Christianity isn't a prescription of how to be moral enough so that you get presents from some cosmic Santa, it's telling you that you're in a burning building and God is there to catch you if only you will trust him enough to jump out the window."

To be blunt, that sounds, to me, like a recipe for suicide.  Remember those people who killed themselves ten years ago because they were going to fly up to be on an asteroid?  Or the Jones masacre?  I realize that you mean "jumping out of a window" figuratively but such blind faith has had, unfortunately, some bad incidents.  All in the name of getting to a better life.

JOSEPH, you wrote, "The reason why I am a Christian is similar to the reason I buy insurance."

I guess this reason bothers me the most of all.  Imagine a bunco artist promising you something that he could never PROVE you would get.  If it turns out that "God is a Myth," it will be the ultimate scam bunco scheme.  Imagine all of the people who have struggled with expenses like food and yet contribute their meager funds to this ghostly image of a God.  He's there because the expensive church windows and frescoes say He is.  And the TV evangelists cry out, "If you want Him in your life, contribute now!"  Another example:  snake oil salesmen promise all kinds of things but at least you don't have to wait until after death to find real proof as to whether it's a scam or real.  By the time I'm dead, ministers will live in a different dimension (back on earth) than me and I can't get back there to haunt them if their claims of Heaven and Hell prove to be erroneous.

On another topic -- I have often noticed how, when someone is killed, they are raised up in their nobility.  I remember many in society (including my Republican parents) disliking President Kennedy...until he was killed.  Likewise, Martin Luther King, Bobby Kennedy, President Lincoln and Marilyn Monroe all seem far more glorious, in part, because of their early tragic deaths.  I'd like to believe that Christianity would still have happened had he lived a long life and not died dramatically on a cross.  But there He is, at the front of all of the altars of Christian churches.  The message is clear:  "He died for you!"  Some recent studies theorize that Judas may have not been the huge traitor that he's made out to be...some think that Jesus knew full well what Judas was going to do and that it'd result in Jesus' death.  Who can really know?  Deaths in Palestine cause some Palestinians to continue on and fight for the martyred husband, brother or sister...in HONOR of them.  If Jesus had lived a long life and died of natural causes, would Christianity have succeeded in the way it has?  I guess we'll never know.

KIMBERLY, Thanks for welcoming me back.

DAWN, I agree with you when you say, "I believe in God.  Religion is mythology, nothing more."

JULIE MARIE, you posed some interesting questions.  Regarding the question, what was here before there was a universe, I'd wonder, what did God do with his time before there was a universe?   Some scientists theorize that our universe is one BUBBLE among many bubbles.  "The God Delusion" posed one more similar question:  If God is a Supernatural Being, what Supernatural Being or Beings created God?  It's all like the riddle, "which came first, the chicken or the egg?"

I've also wondered, since childhood, how God could listen to millions of prayers coming from people at the same time.  In a similar vein, in a report on the NBC Nightly News, someone recently figured out how many tons Santa's sled would weigh and how fast that sled would have to be to travel to every chimney on the globe in ONE NIGHT.  The answers sounded downright supernatural but, in the end, at least we have the PROOF of a present on Christmas morning.  That Santa must be one intelligent designer.

Merry Christmas, Happy Holidays and hugs,
Teri Anne

continues to be a great post!
Joseph your post was very insightful, as i think you are a very good scholar in the religion field..
I am not, sadly i have manipulated my own form of christianity and pretty much deal with God and my angels one on one.. Not a bad thing just the way i chose to do it!
I was curious about some of the threads, especially Tiffanny and the suffering pieces.
I would not ever disagree there is suffering in this world.  But i try and believe something that is a mixture of religion and sciences...
See i try and think that in Gods perfection and wisdom he created a world that in its purpose was evolution and growth, minus adam and eve if the life itself was created that way or by a single cell and went from there either way if God in his perfection created something that was not decidely perfect but an imperfect world where he could see his children and watch them and monitor them, whatever you call it, then i believe that in this creation he had to create  a world that would have bad things and diseases and deaths along with good things through our very own evolution.  (Shame except for the rare rabid times animals live by natures rules and by a food chain they do not necessarily kill for an emotion or thrill;)
People are not like animals i guess...
anyway so with this little weird theory of mine i believe that these things are woven into the fabric of how God started this world, i beleve that he can interject and change things via his angels and he does but believe that as a whole he does not micromanage the world or events or the people almost like he set-it up to where he cannot or does allow himself to fully interject or manipulate the way we are and the way the world is evolving...
To me this explains why there are babies born dead, deaths, diseases, bad people, killers, rapists, saviours, good people, the sun the moon, cures to some diseases and not to others, ....AND yet somewhere in this; small and large miracles seem to happen all the time but they are indescriminate this guy hitsth lottery, this womans baby was saved through a nmiraculus car accident yet some others die or whatever....
I use this sometimes in the logic of trying to explain to myself why there are transsexuals and gays and child molesters and seemingly perfect people, and good kids and bad.. etc....
That God created the world from an imperfection standpoint to see where it goes and how we grow it as people..
But i do not believe any of this is a test for us, bad times, pain, suffering i think is woven into the frabric of this world not a test of our God to us to see if we are good enough enough to get into the next world?
I just do not know.
Some of my thoughts...
Ricki

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
JOSEPH -

Though some of my answers below sound critical, I don't mean them to be.  Unless I'm honest with my responses, I don't think I can get to the place most Christians reside. 

Hi Teri Anne!

   Thanks so much for actually reading what I wrote, and then providing a well-thought-out response.  I know it was long, and I thank you very much for going through all of it.  You don't sound critical at all and I think your questions are quite reasonable.  Actually, I was hoping you didn't find what *I* wrote to be too critical sounding.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
While you say that we can't earn our way to Heaven, hopefully God will take into account that BELIEF IN HIM should not be nearly as important as doing GOOD WORKS.  At least, that's the way I'd like to think MY God is. 

Great point.  James had a very similar point in James 2 when he noted even the demons believe in God (and shudder)!  This is a great opportunity to flesh out a bit more the starting point to understanding what the Bible is saying.  I intentionally left out a lot of it last time because the point of my last post was to illustrate that it's hard to have a coherent discussion about Christianity because we're not starting from the same common understanding about certain things.  It's like what happens when you say "I saw an Air Marshall at the airport today."  Even though they speak the same language, an American will think you mean someone who works for TSA.  A British person will probably interpret that to mean a high-ranking person in their Air Force.  Similar misunderstandings occur when discussing Christianity, because there are certain connotations that words take on in a Christian context, but not in others.

I'll try to keep this as short as possible, and feel free to ask more questions.  The Bible speaks of a God who is incomprehensibly holy ("set apart") and awesome.  There are no words to adequately describe how great he is. "blinding light," "magnificent," "king of kings," "lord of lords," "wondrous," "glorious," "mighty," "omnipotent," "beauty," "excellent," "praiseworthy," "splendor," "love" ... those are all words that can't begin to capture the essence of this being.   And what is this being's main purpose in life?  Sit down.  The main reason why God does anything is to glorify himself.  ;D  Yes, really.  If you don't understand this particular notion, there is almost no point in discussing other parts of Christian theology.  And unfortunately, it's something that many churches don't do a very good job of teaching.  There is a book I recommend on this topic.  It's called "God's Passion for His Glory" by John Piper, which is actually a book from 1998 that explains the book "The End For Which God Created the World" by Jonathan Edwards, an 18th century theologian, for those of us who have a hard time reading stuff from the 1700s.  It's really a disservice to try to shrink this topic into a few paragraphs, but here we go. 

Most people have a negative reaction when they find out God's chief end in everything he does is his own glory.  But that is because we know egotistical people that we dislike.  We dislike people who are full of themselves because they're not really any more special than we are, they often don't care about anyone but themselves, and really they're just showing off because they're insecure and they want to cover up their weak points.  But those reasons apply to people, not God.  Jonathan Edwards wrote, "If God is indeed so great and so excellent that all other beings are as nothing to him, and all other excellency be as nothing in comparison with his, and if God be omniscient and infallible, and perfectly knows that he is infinitely the most valuable being, then it is fit that his heart should be agreeable to this, understanding that he should value himself infinitely more than his [finite] creatures."  But wait, you say.  I don't like it when people don't care about ME.  But you see, WE were created for his glory!  And how do humans most glorify God?  By having a relationship with him - the best love relationship possible - and enjoying it! John Piper writes that God is most glorified in us when we are most satisfied in Him, and this is one reason why he likes to put his glory on display.  Piper notes, "If God were to give us the best, the thing we would most enjoy, if He were to love us perfectly, He must offer us no less than himself for our contemplation and fellowship and joy.  And how are we to fully enjoy him if His grandeur and infinite worth are not made known to us?"

God created humans - and everything else - for his glory.  The universe glorifies him in worship.  We worship because we tend to praise/worship what we enjoy, appreciate, or believe to be excellent.  Piper quoted C.S. Lewis in saying, "I think we delight to praise what we enjoy because the praise not merely expresses but completes the enjoyment. It is not out of complement that lovers keep on telling one another how beautiful they are, the delight is incomplete till it is expressed."  As far as Christians know, everything that God created in this universe glorifies him except rogue angels (demons) and humans.  That's because we were given enough intelligence to become prideful and decide that we'd look for other lovers.  The love relationship with God was broken, and our objects of worship became anything else besides God.  Stars, nature, other people, even ourselves - these things became the center of our lives, not God.  Those who have been unfortunate enough to experience an adulterous spouse/partner have a taste of the broken relationship and heartache caused by this.  Paul wrote in Romans, "They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised."  Later he went on to say "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God."  John Piper noted, "The idea is not that you shot an arrow at God's glory and the arrow fell short, but that you could have had it as a treasure, and you don't.  You have chosen something else instead."  And in comparison with God, everything else is unspeakably ugly.

So this finally brings me to addressing your first question.  The belief talked about in John 3:16 is not merely the belief that God exists.  James clarified that when he said that true faith produces GOOD WORKS.  You can't use the loophole, "well, I'll just believe in God and then continue doing bad things."
And by the way, when I say faith, read one of my previous posts so we're on the same page about what I mean: https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,6253.msg51368.html#msg51368

Christian belief or faith is, in essence, turning AWAY from sin - i.e. our rejection of God - and coming back to him.  We choose him over everything else, and place him at the center of our lives, where he was supposed to be.  So, I almost totally agree with your quote above - the only place where we differ is I believe that belief/faith in God goes hand in hand with good works.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
I would prefer a religion which states THOU SHALT NOT KILL and there'd be no small print with exceptions.

Comments about Iraq aside, technically speaking the hebrew for "kill" in the ten commandments is the word used for taking someone's life without cause.  This is a different word than the word used for what is usually translated as "murder."  So that particular commandment is not prohibiting taking someone's life, period.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
Again, I'd hope that BELIEF IN HIM, on the scales of justice, is not as important as going out and "murdering someone."

Hopefully, this has been clarified.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
JOSEPH, you wrote, "No fundamental doctrine of the Christian faith rests on a disputed reading...It cannot be too strongly asserted that in substance the text of the Bible is certain... especially with the New Testament."

When you say, "especially," does that mean that there are some fundamental doctrines in the Old Testament that are out of date and/or untrue?  If so, why not do what the lawyers do, draw lines through the ones that should not be read?

No, it just means that there are fewer ancient copies of the old testament surviving today, which should be understandable.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
What about a tribe in the middle of the Pacific Ocean in the 1800's that has no outside contact with Christians, or anyone?  Do they die an eternal death in Hell because they were blessed with being born in wrong locale?  What about the tribes in Africa who believed in Chu Chu of the mountain?

Very common question.  The bible says that God will judge in a way where no one will be able to say he judged unfairly.  That's why I don't personally judge people, and don't tell them that they're going to hell.  How am I supposed to know their heart?  But I do try to tell them the same message that I've been given, i.e. we're all sick and here's how you get to the doctor.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
You say that "it's like a 2-dimensional person trying to understand something in 3 dimensions."  Gee, so I should believe in something I don't understand?  I think the definition of that is "blind faith."  If that is truly what God is expecting, he'll get an awful lot of gullible people (I'm not talking about you) and, by definition, eliminate me.  I don't think that's a very nice God.  Just my thinking.

Yes and no.  There's an understanding of God that can lead to a turning away from sin and lead to the acceptance of entering into a relationship with him.  I already noted what I mean by faith.  But, if God is truly as great as the bible attempts to describe, there's gonna be a heck of a lot that we DON'T understand about him.  We've come a long way since Job, (believed to be one of the earliest people talked about in the bible) but there are some questions in Job 40-41 that we still can't answer or understand (and probably never will in this life.)  If we can't even understand quantum mechanics, and quantum mechanics was created by God in that one sentence, "Let there be light" then I think it would be foolish to think we could begin to understand everything about him.  Besides, is a God that we can totally explain a God that is worthy of worship?

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
JOSEPH, you wrote, "Christianity isn't a prescription of how to be moral enough so that you get presents from some cosmic Santa, it's telling you that you're in a burning building and God is there to catch you if only you will trust him enough to jump out the window."

To be blunt, that sounds, to me, like a recipe for suicide.  Remember those people who killed themselves ten years ago because they were going to fly up to be on an asteroid?  Or the Jones masacre?  I realize that you mean "jumping out of a window" figuratively but such blind faith has had, unfortunately, some bad incidents.  All in the name of getting to a better life.

Again, this should be addressed in my explanation of what I mean by faith.  Let me know if it isn't.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
JOSEPH, you wrote, "The reason why I am a Christian is similar to the reason I buy insurance."

I guess this reason bothers me the most of all.  Imagine a bunco artist promising you something that he could never PROVE you would get.  If it turns out that "God is a Myth," it will be the ultimate scam bunco scheme.

Again, the explanation of faith.  By the way, the analogy about insurance is imperfect, and that's why I said "similar."  To draw an analogy that is closer to Christianity, I'd have to be causing car crashes pretty much every day, and I pay virtually nothing to have the company continue to insure me.  The reason I use the insurance analogy is because it says something about our response to our perceived reality.  Some people don't buy insurance because they think it's a waste of money (this doesn't include people who are too poor to afford insurance, btw.)  Those types of people will usually only buy insurance if they come to terms with the fact that they are not invincible, they make mistakes, other people make mistakes, roads get icy enough to put any good driver in the gutter, etc, etc.  In the same way, humans only turn back to God when they come to terms with the reality of how ugly their sins are against God and how precious a treasure he is in comparison with everything else they can possibly have.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
On another topic -- I have often noticed how, when someone is killed, they are raised up in their nobility.   
...
I'd like to believe that Christianity would still have happened had he lived a long life and not died dramatically on a cross.

I love your questions, btw.  You're probably framing this all better for me than if I just sat down and wrote something about Christianity.  :D  Josh McDowell (another Christian) once gave an analogy for why Christ came to earth and died for us.  It was his way of forgiving us, but still ensuring that justice was served.  Reference my previous post about the mass murdering bridge player.  Anyways, McDowell said, say a daughter is running around the living room and hits an expensive lamp.  It falls on the floor and breaks.  The dad comes home and finds the broken lamp.  The daughter rushes up to him and says "I'm so sorry, daddy!"  The dad says, "that's okay, honey.  I forgive you."  And all is well.  But wait - who pays for the lamp?  The daughter doesn't have enough in her meager allowance to pay for it.  The father ends up paying.  McDowell goes on, "Let's say somebody insults you in front of others and later you graciously say, I forgive you.  Who bears the price of the insult?  You do. This is what God has done.  God has said, I forgive you, but He was willing to pay the price Himself through the cross."  But wait - Jesus had to die, AND be resurrected.  Paul writes in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Jesus had not been resurrected from the dead, then our faith would be in vain.  It would be like trying to make a payment for someone, but not having enough money to get them out of debt.  Christ died so we could be raised from death to life.  If he didn't have the power to overcome death himself, then it was all in vain.  Paul wrote, "And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins."  I believe I once wrote something about why I think it may be reasonable to believe that the resurrection actually occurred.. ah yes, here we go... only a billion posts ago in this same thread  :D:
https://www.susans.org/forums/index.php/topic,2008.msg16722.html#msg16722

And by the way, to address something you said later (maybe in response to what I wrote about the resurrection, but it wasn't addressed specifically to me) the bible doesn't talk about how most of Jesus' apostles and family members died.  Their deaths are recorded in other historical records.

Quote from: Teri Anne on December 06, 2006, 07:32:10 PM
DAWN, I agree with you when you say, "I believe in God.  Religion is mythology, nothing more."

By the way, something you've probably heard Christians say is Christianity is not really a religion as much as it is a relationship with God.  Religion is usually about all the things you need to do to get to heaven. As someone put it (not sure who started this phrase,) religion is spelled "D-O."  Jesus spells it "D-O-N-E." We come to heaven on His terms, not ours.  If there is a God who is greater than me, especially as great as the one described in the bible, I think it's reasonable that he sets the terms, not me.  Especially considering he didn't HAVE to set any terms.  He could have just thrown up his hands and said "whatever" - kind of like what we do when we make inventions, computer programs, kids  ;D, that aren't cooperating or acting the way we hoped they would.

All the best,
Joseph

Joseph;
  Terriffic explainations! I love your style.
  Tiff

Julie, I see what you are saying and in many ways I agree with you.  Wonderment is a marvelous thing and something we humans have been generously gifted with.  But let me answer your "postulations" for kicks and gigles.

Quote from: Julie Marie on December 06, 2006, 09:19:28 AM
One's definition of God can create debate, doubt, confusion or comfort.  But when you look to the skies on a starry night and see it goes on forever, when you stand atop a mountain and see the vast beauty before you, when you dive into the sea and watch the fish dart in and out of the coral reef do you wonder if God is a myth?

Nope.  I don't think about god then.  I'm too busy wondering at what I see.  If we were to use magic to define light, we would never invent a light bulb.

Quote
If you believe in the Big Bang do you ever wonder what there was before it?

I believe that the Big Bang is the best explanation for what we see going on in the universe. This is called theory. When you drop a ball, I believe that the theory of gravity will explain what will happen. God does not make the ball drop, the mass of the earth pulls the ball towards it. Yes, the big bang and gravity are just theories.  I do not believe IN them.  But I believe they are the best attempt to explain what it is that we see.  They add up the observable evidence and put forth a cohesive explanation.

What was before it?  The understanding of space and time will be coming to your local high school some day.  There's some gnarly, meaty and very cool stuff in it all.  But before it ends up in parochial school ciriculum, you'll have to read up on it on your own.  A lot of it is still in the guessing to be sure.  But that's where we need to further our quest for understanding.

Quote
If you believe the universe is finite, what is on the other side?

Actually, you should never ask an astronomer this question... for you see, there are real answers ;)  For example, our "universe" as defined as the matter within has a physical dimension.  It has a limit as far as we know.  What exists beyond that is empty space.  Now as to the point of explaining the "side"...  There are other dimensions... woah... we could really get into this one deep....

Quote
If you believe physical death is the end of our being, who created us at birth?

My mother and father did.  His cells comingled with her cells.  Sometimes there are really some simple answers.

Quote
Is God a myth?  By man's definition, maybe so.  But when you look at all around you, when you try to fathom infinity, when you try to find the beginning or the end, it's hard to believe there isn't a greater power.

No it isn't.  I don't find much spiritually interesting about a rock.  Everything is made from similar elements. Space is just space. God didn't invent that. These are only elements foreign to our experience. I wonder what an uneducated medivial farmer would do if brought into my home and were to spend the day with me.  Would he not think I was a god?  I could show him how we kill people on television, heat up a tv dinner in the microwave and almost instantly transport him to another town in my iron chariot.  I can't begin to imagine how he would contemplate my magic wand, the Visa card.

I can not use God do define my world.  It just doesn't work.  Personally, I find it much easier to define my spirituality separately.  That makes it easier to keep from tearing one apart when viewed from the other.  I look at the universe and I marvel at the physics.  I look at my mother and I cherish the love that I have for her.   I see the energy jet from a black hole and I marvel as it disects atoms at its event horizon.  I watch the news and see how we are collectively underpowering our lives with a net loss of spirituality.

God is love. God is in the rain.

The stuff out there... up in the sky.... we can see, we can explain, we can learn more.

Love,

Cindi

I frankly find the idea of God to be something people use to keep the masses is check. Religion enforces so many societal rules, started so many wars, and prevents change in the minds of the populous. I never believed in any higher power simply because it doesn't make sense to me that something so powerful could come from nothing. I believe that the only thing ever to come from nothing is the universe itself. Everything that followed adheres to the rules we now know to be science.

If pondered further, every religion has a hell you are cast into if you don't follow their religion. Thus, everyone would be in hell since no one follows multiple religions. Religion basically pokes holes in its own logic too many times to be valid.

I believe that people are good at their core. We don't need some concept of God and divine punishment to be good people. That should come from the inside.

PS--> Something I just thought up. ---> Every rule has an exception, except for this one. However, by having no exceptions, this rule is the exception to the rule that states that all rules have exceptions. It proves and disproves itself.

Reincarnations are a myth.

Quote from: DianaP on August 15, 2012, 09:25:04 PM
I frankly find the idea of God to be something people use to keep the masses is check. Religion enforces so many societal rules, started so many wars, and prevents change in the minds of the populous. I never believed in any higher power simply because it doesn't make sense to me that something so powerful could come from nothing. I believe that the only thing ever to come from nothing is the universe itself. Everything that followed adheres to the rules we now know to be science.

If pondered further, every religion has a hell you are cast into if you don't follow their religion. Thus, everyone would be in hell since no one follows multiple religions. Religion basically pokes holes in its own logic too many times to be valid.

I believe that people are good at their core. We don't need some concept of God and divine punishment to be good people. That should come from the inside.

PS--> Something I just thought up. ---> Every rule has an exception, except for this one. However, by having no exceptions, this rule is the exception to the rule that states that all rules have exceptions. It proves and disproves itself.

I have a ton of faith in humanity. Knowing what I do about evolution, I don't believe that all humanity suddenly went from primitive animals that don't think about things like that, to suddenly believing in gods. It took a few, who maybe weren't the most powerful of their tribe, but with more intelligence, to scare the others into following them by using stories of magic and gods to explain how things work. Things caught on and tada!... you have the first government... err religion.

So I agree. I think religion is just a part of, like you said, keeping the masses in check. Its a part of politics that will always be there to keep the general populace under control. I would like to see this change too, but I think at this point it may be too strongly entrenched in society. Then again, I think a few religions, or perhaps just some of their doctrines and practices, should be outlawed on the basis of human rights. I think "freedom of religion" has gone a bit too far.

As for gods as a creative force, my policy is that there is simply not enough evidence for or against the belief. Physicists have discovered that things inexplicably come from nothing all the time at the quantum level. Also, there is a ton of mathematical research that has led many theoretical physicists to believe that we are not simply living in a universe, but an infinite multiverse, with universes within it being created and destroyed all the time. The recent discovery of what appears to be the long searched for Higgs-Boson particle--or "God" particle--will hopefully give us more information to go on.

Some people rely on God like a crutch, like my family. I am positive that if my mother ever lost her belief in God, she would most likely commit suicide. She wouldn't be able to deal. From speaking with her, it has become obvious to me that she just cannot cope with the world as it is. She needs God. And so, even though that means she might never except me, I want her to have her crutch to lean on.  I don't know, I might be completely New Atheist and against religion if it weren't for my family, who never speak to me anyways. Its an emotionally confusing subject for me. lol

According to at least some philosophers most anything is myth, a dream of sorts if you wish.

Space, mathematics, the 'meaning' of life, morals, even ethics, history (for sure!), gender - well? ...and on and on.

Looking at it from this angle, God has to be one of the many myths that make for the human condition "self-awareness" (a lost soul swimming in a fish bowl, the universe)...

Now whilst I say that... these myths WORK for us, always did, lest they might not exist in the first place.
Though, myths do change. There was a non-mono-deistic world before ours – here I speak of the Western World, of those Greek and also Germanic gods. These now all supplanted by the one and only God of Judeo-Christian and Islamic religion.

The question is then, WHAT is wrong with myths, and the mysterious, und ultimately unknowing... if it helps us to get through life?
My answer:  NOTHING AT ALL!

I do not see myself a religious person, but certainly as a spiritual one.
Maybe that helps?

Axélle

Quote from: Axélle on August 16, 2012, 07:49:03 AM
The question is then, WHAT is wrong with myths, and the mysterious, und ultimately unknowing... if it helps us to get through life?
My answer:  NOTHING AT ALL!

I agree. I just don't like that a lot of religious folks try to push their ideals and put down anything different. You can believe whatever you want, just don't push it down other peoples' throats.

Quote from: DianaP on August 16, 2012, 11:12:17 AM
I agree. I just don't like that a lot of religious folks try to push their ideals and put down anything different. You can believe whatever you want, just don't push it down other peoples' throats.

Yea, right - but often it is NOT the 'believe' as such, it is peoples insecurities that demands that EVERYONE must think AND experience things in 'alignment' with the ruling ideas.

This means that ever so often even Christian holy believers were totally rejected by other Christian believers --- and burned at the stake so their soul may be purged and they still might find into the kingdom of heaven... despite their abominable heretic notions.

All of this is purely mankind's spitefulness and has little or nothing to do with spirituality, I dare say.

Just my finding :)
Axélle

Quote from: Axélle on August 16, 2012, 01:14:24 PM

All of this is purely mankind's spitefulness and has little or nothing to do with spirituality, I dare say.

Just my finding :)
Axélle

Once again I agree. I wasn't saying religion was a bad thing, just those who try to force it on others.

Quote from: Axélle on August 16, 2012, 07:49:03 AM
I do not see myself a religious person, but certainly as a spiritual one.
Maybe that helps?

Yeah, I view myself as a pretty spiritual person as well. I think its what fuels my questioning nature--figuring out what life is all about, even if there really is no more meaning to it than what we put into it.

Organized religion, especially fundamentalist monotheism ("There's ONE god, so that means there must be only ONE right way"), is really messed up. People should believe what they want to believe, of course, but if a group's system of belief includes intolerance of others'... well that's the cause of a lot of our problems today.

Spirituality is one thing, and a good thing, I think that's very true. But religion, like you said, is different. It is, for many, much more rigid, and, more often than one might think, involves rigid doctrines concerning perceived "sinners" which can be destructive. That's my take on it.  So "spiritual but not religious" is a good way to put it.

Religiosity as in doctrine is EGO of religion; it is a DEFENCE and an attempt to PROTECT, an attempt to overcome insecurity, an attempt to prevent variation(s) to an established 'norm'.

It is essentially not much different to what happens in societies; any societies attempts to protect itself - in order to survive. As simple AND as brutal as that.

If a society would not do this, the society would collapse and we would then also have to pay a price. A high price, in a much shortened life.

The trick is to BALANCE those opposing forces like in practically EVERY thing in life.

A train e.g. is a VERY useful thing... yet a run-away-train is one VERY destructive thing in deed.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts,
Axélle