Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Ok, I'm sure this'll bother some people, but I felt coming here was the most intelligent thing as it'd be the best place to get informed answers that I can share with others.

Long and short (pun not intended), while I am a happy male, I'm not attached to my penis. I've thought about two mods, streamlining (moving the testes internal, removing one if necessary, dunno ifn there's room) or perhaps on the more extreme side, replacing it with a vagina. That last one was inspired by a few bits of art here and there of characters like that, and one photo I have of someone that claims to have been born straddling genders, and lately by a video of Buck Angel. Right now its a casual thought, I've not the knowledge necessary to make an informed decision, so I've come here for that and opinions. Obviously this is possible, its merely a matter of a partial gender transformation (correction?), but the fine details are important, then there's cost, and safety. Also whether its even possible to find someone to do work like this, unlike many body mods, self surgery or amateur surgery isn't a wise idea. Largest question is what to do with the testes, remove them, or since I'm not looking to change genders, should they be internalized? Testosterone production would continue ifn I understand it right, which would take care of potential hormone issues, but will it bring any risks.

Thank you for your answers and help in this issue, what I learn here I'll save it, and post it as a follow up to my comments about my interest here, and what direction I choose to move in.

You don't have gender identity disorder, you don't qualify for genital reassignment surgery. No surgeon will agree to what you ask. The procedure to qualify for the surgery is lengthy, arduous, and pretty much impossible for anyone who doesn't have a severe level of GID. May I suggest you re-examine your priorities.

Quote from: Hypatia on October 07, 2007, 10:14:47 PM
You don't have gender identity disorder, you don't qualify for genital reassignment surgery. No surgeon will agree to what you ask. The procedure to qualify for the surgery is lengthy, arduous, and pretty much impossible for anyone who doesn't have a severe level of GID. May I suggest you re-examine your priorities.

Ditto.  However (there is always a "however", isn't there?), there's something called body nullification:

Quote from: wikiNullification involves the voluntary removal of body parts. Body parts that are removed by those practicing body nullification are for example Fingers, Penis (penectomy), Testicles (castration), Clitoris, Labia or Nipples. Sometimes people who desire a nullification may be diagnosed with body integrity identity disorder or apotemnophilia.

From this link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Body_nullification


I am not sure if there's any doctor in the US who will perform such surgical procedures but they do exist.

tink :icon_chick:

Oh I'm quite aware that I have no identity issues, in fact at this point its more of a curiosity thing than anything else, and I've a insane thirst for knowledge. Besides, anything's possible for those willing to spend the money and take the risks, not me though.

I'm aware of nullification, and people have it done, that kinda proves that its possible for find a doctor for... shall we say improper modifications? It does sorta defeat the purpose, its not that I want no gender identity, but rather that I'm not locked to one rather than the other, or becoming a hybrid, so what harm is there in exploring the possibilities even if they're not realistic? At the very least I can walk away more knowledgeable than when I started, and perhaps with more understanding of those for whom this is not a choice, but a necessity.

NO NO NO.

This is about GENDER IDENTITY.  While I do not like the term gender identity disorder, I do agree if your not transsexual do not even CONSIDER this. 

Especially when you are discussing about keeping your testicals (eww).

SRS is not NOT a body mod.  You will not find a TS, even the anti-gatekeeper ones who would support this.  It is a way to  bring intersex and transsexual people a way to have a body reflective of their brain.  If you identify as male, this is NOT for you. 

This is an significant surgery. 

MMm, I may be on the cutting edge and the first one, but I suspect that this question will arise as time goes on. Sex is changing, porn is no longer vanilla, the internet has certainly opened people's eyes to what's out there, what the other choices are. Right now radical body mods are thins like penile splitting, tongue splitting, or nullification. All of these are done for fun, sexual pleasure, or for other rather casual reasons. Breast enhancement is no longer considered odd, yet go back what, 30 years ago? It would've been a radical mod now. I think ideas such as mine will become more mainstream with two simple and connected changes, one is the acceptance of one to choose their gender, and with that acceptance will become a greater availability of the surgery. Right, wrong or indifferent, one of two ages is coming, a dark age thanks to the religious right or an age of greater enlightenment (not sure I'd go that far), and if its the latter, I suspect that like many things, it'll become hip to make changes like this, starting like tattoos did with a small niche community and growing. While this is perhaps not quite the right place for this question, its likely the only place to turn in the quest to sate my curiosity about the viability of it.

Quote from: Amy T. on October 07, 2007, 11:11:18 PM
You will not find a TS, even the anti-gatekeeper ones who would support this. 

That's a pretty broad brush you're painting with there.  ^_^   Speaking for every TS-identified person at once with such a blanket statement.

Whether one agrees with such a thing or not, it's rarely within your rights to tell someone that what they want is 'wrong',  only maybe that you wouldn't choose such a path yourself.  :)

There's really nothing horrifyingly innovative about genital body modification. It's been around for quite a while and has attracted an aesthically pleased crowd. Here's an Article (NSFW) (http://www.bodytwo.com/interviews/2007/10/04/martin-genital-evolution/#more-84) on one individual who chose to perform genital modification on himself.

I always suggest looking into a subject before yip-yapping. Each individual has their own views and motivations, but replying to objectivity with such subjectivity really doesn't convince of a true examination of the subject.

Quote from: no_id on October 07, 2007, 11:48:23 PM
I always suggest looking into a subject before yip-yapping. Each individual has their own views and motivations, but replying to objectivity with such subjectivity really doesn't convince of a true examination of the subject.

Guilty as charged, although I'm trying to be better. Actually I'm kind of odd, while I am subjective, I do try to look at, listen too, and question all points of views.

Quote from: RedJack on October 08, 2007, 12:13:37 AM

Quote from: no_id on October 07, 2007, 11:48:23 PM
I always suggest looking into a subject before yip-yapping. Each individual has their own views and motivations, but replying to objectivity with such subjectivity really doesn't convince of a true examination of the subject.

Guilty as charged, although I'm trying to be better. Actually I'm kind of odd, while I am subjective, I do try to look at, listen too, and question all points of views.

The above wasn't directed at you. However, I'm always pro information for all parties.  8)

I don't see anything wrong with seeking GRS for mere aestethical purposes. As long as you are well informed about the changes and still want it, then it is your decision.

There are no real reversal procedures for body modifications, be they as innocent as a tattoo or piercing.  All changes leave their mark.  The piercings in the eyebrow leave little dots after they close.  Tattoo removal is painful and not without its scar tissue.

If one does not have Gender Identity Disorder then it is best to not dabble in the Gender Reassignment Surgery.

About 10 years ago I was surfing and I found Body Modification Ezine.  One of the features was gender nullification.  I saw pictures of a male person with nipples covered by a patch of skin, penis and testes nowhere in sight, and a cavity between the legs, an open space, complete with stitches using a black stitch material.

The surgery was not in an operating room.  It appeared to be in a warehouse or other large area with no equipment that I could see.  For all I know the surgeon was using a flashlight to see.  I am not a surgeon but what I saw did not appear to have been done by a board-certified physician/surgeon and there was no surgeon's assistant present in the pics.

I did not return to the Ezine after that.

Wing Walker

My goodness, why do some people do such things to themselves? Is inflicting pain to oneself become a turn on sexually?

Cindy

Quote from: Amy T. on October 07, 2007, 11:11:18 PM
SRS is not NOT a body mod.  You will not find a TS, even the anti-gatekeeper ones who would support this.  It is a way to  bring intersex and transsexual people a way to have a body reflective of their brain.  If you identify as male, this is NOT for you. 

I think it is his body, and if he is sane, I don't have any problem with it.

I don't understand why and it seems like a big decision that could lead to large amounts of regret. But I don't think other people should be limited to things I consider sensible and good [as long as they don't hurt others].

Quote from: Wing Walker on October 08, 2007, 01:10:01 AM
About 10 years ago I was surfing and I found Body Modification Ezine.  One of the features was gender nullification.  I saw pictures of a male person with nipples covered by a patch of skin, penis and testes nowhere in sight, and a cavity between the legs, an open space, complete with stitches using a black stitch material.

The surgery was not in an operating room.  It appeared to be in a warehouse or other large area with no equipment that I could see.  For all I know the surgeon was using a flashlight to see.  I am not a surgeon but what I saw did not appear to have been done by a board-certified physician/surgeon and there was no surgeon's assistant present in the pics.

I did not return to the Ezine after that.

Wing Walker

Unfortunately none of this is really relevant to the topic at hand. Rather than be some example against the things being discussed are 'bad', it says more that people will still do what they want and that having adequate resources available would be safer for all involved.

Posted on: October 08, 2007, 01:23:41 AM

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Quote from: cindybc on October 08, 2007, 01:17:59 AM
My goodness, why do some people do such things to themselves? Is inflicting pain to oneself become a turn on sexually?

Cindy

*giggle* I think that pain as a 'turn on' has existed for longer than anyone on this board has been alive.  ^_^

mas·och·ism      /ˈmæsəˌkɪzəm, ˈmæz-/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[mas-uh-kiz-uhm, maz-] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation
–noun
1.   Psychiatry. the condition in which sexual gratification depends on suffering, physical pain, and humiliation.
2.   gratification gained from pain, deprivation, degradation, etc., inflicted or imposed on oneself, either as a result of one's own actions or the actions of others, esp. the tendency to seek this form of gratification.
3.   the act of turning one's destructive tendencies inward or upon oneself.
4.   the tendency to find pleasure in self-denial, submissiveness, etc.
[Origin: 1890–95; named after L. von Sacher-Masoch, who described it; see -ism]


from - http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/masochism


But that isn't even relevant to this topic either. Unless somehow any and all surgical modification to ones genitals 'must' be for sexual purposes.  Though,  that just might be a little hypocritical, no?

Quote from: cindybc on October 08, 2007, 01:17:59 AM
My goodness, why do some people do such things to themselves? Is inflicting pain to oneself become a turn on sexually?

Cindy

People modify their bodies in all sorts of ways that I would not be interested in.  But my body is my choice, just as your body is your choice.   I wouldn't question it if you wanted to get your ears pierced or get a giant tattoo on your back of eagle feathers, all I can say is "Not my cup of tea."

While there definitely some people who do get sexually aroused by pain, it's possible people would modify their bodies for this desire.  Nonetheless, people modify their bodies because <b>they want to</b>.  They accept the pain as a necessary evil to get to what they want.

You might desire to wear earrings, maybe you already do.  Acquiring the holes in your earlobes to hold the earrings up was to some extent painful.  But I'll take the wager that you didn't(or wouldn't) do it for any sexual reason, probably simply because you want to.

There are all kinds of irreversible things one can do to their bodies. This guy http://www.thelizardman.com/  for example.  There is no way at all he can ever go back to "looking normal".  The majority of his skin is tattooed green with a scale pattern, he has implants in his eyebrows, his tongue is split.  He didn't have to go through a psych eval. to make his modifications.   Just something to think about.

My body is my choice.  That's the reason I'm having my hands and feet amputated next week.  >:D

Where do you believe the line should be drawn? 

Who decides that <i> This </i> is ok to do to your body but <i> That </i> is not?

Who is the decider and who makes the decisions?   >:D

Quote from: Alison on October 08, 2007, 02:06:41 AM
Where do you believe the line should be drawn? 

Who decides that <i> This </i> is ok to do to your body but <i> That </i> is not?

Who is the decider and who makes the decisions?   >:D

I think ultimately it should be left up to the individual.  Not to sound dumb or anything, but people have to live with their life choices, and no one is going to stop them from doing what they want either way.  If they have the money and want to do it the legal and safe way, then by all means go ahead I guess.  It's better than them dying doing it by themselves and bleeding to death or something.  You need to draw the line of safety somewhere as well.

If SRS became a body modification it would devalue the medical necessity arguement of the surgery for intersex and transsexual individuals.  I am sorry, but I am thinking beyond the whole your body your choice idea to the actual medical justifications.  SRS is begining to be covered by insurance companies because the medical necessity is begining to be understood.

I am sorry this should not be used for body modification purposes.  This is a medically necessary surgery for some of us, and devaluing it to a body modification is something I cannot accept.

There needs to be standards exactly to prevent this, and we need to keep this a TS and IS ONLY surgery.  Its medically necessary for us, and letting people do it for body modification would devalue it and cause untold damage.

Live and let live. I just don't expect to be a spectator any time soon. I have no fear of lizards snakes or any other reptiles or spiders, or any type of insects except for the ones that sting. Same with animals, big or small. I love nature and all it's denizens and I am only 5' 3"  125 lbs and feed cub bears out of my hand while the mommy is just off a distance watching unconcernedly. But I don't really think that going to see a lizard man is going to be on my agenda for anytime soon

Cindy

Quote from: Amy T. on October 08, 2007, 02:41:35 AM
If SRS became a body modification it would devalue the medical necessity arguement of the surgery for intersex and transsexual individuals.  I am sorry, but I am thinking beyond the whole your body your choice idea to the actual medical justifications.  SRS is begining to be covered by insurance companies because the medical necessity is begining to be understood.

I am sorry this should not be used for body modification purposes.  This is a medically necessary surgery for some of us, and devaluing it to a body modification is something I cannot accept.

There needs to be standards exactly to prevent this, and we need to keep this a TS and IS ONLY surgery.  Its medically necessary for us, and letting people do it for body modification would devalue it and cause untold damage.

Doesn't that speak to a larger societal problem rather than "omgz dont' devalue what i want!!1!" ?  If it's medically necessary then insurance should cover it. If not? Then no, it shouldn't. That's not a difficult concept to understand one would think. So, rather than going down a completely self-serving line of thinking it might be more beneficial to realize the real scope of the issue.

Quote from: shanetastic on October 08, 2007, 02:29:31 AM
I think ultimately it should be left up to the individual.  Not to sound dumb or anything, but people have to live with their life choices, and no one is going to stop them from doing what they want either way.  If they have the money and want to do it the legal and safe way, then by all means go ahead I guess.  It's better than them dying doing it by themselves and bleeding to death or something.  You need to draw the line of safety somewhere as well.

While ideally I'd agree to modify oneself safely is the best case scenario.  But it also comes down to that its the individuals choice whether to follow "safety codes" when making those decisions of what to do when, and how.  Safety is largely a personal responsibility.  And 'unsafe' procedures won't have a better chance at becoming safer until they are honed and developed, 100 years ago very simple surgeries of today were considered very dangerous because they weren't yet perfected.

Quote
There needs to be standards exactly to prevent this, and we need to keep this a TS and IS ONLY surgery.  Its medically necessary for us, and letting people do it for body modification would devalue it and cause untold damage.

How is it any different for a breast cancer survivor getting a breast augmentation covered by insurance because of 'medical necessity' (which is a whole other argument in itself but i'll use your term for now).  And a random person getting a breast augmentation as a body modification and paying out of pocket?

Basically it's the same procedure.  Does that devalue the surgery the breast cancer survivor had to reconstruct their breast?  Absolutely not.  Why should this be any different?

Quote from: Amy T. on October 08, 2007, 02:41:35 AM
If SRS became a body modification it would devalue the medical necessity arguement of the surgery for intersex and transsexual individuals.  I am sorry, but I am thinking beyond the whole your body your choice idea to the actual medical justifications.  SRS is begining to be covered by insurance companies because the medical necessity is begining to be understood.

I am sorry this should not be used for body modification purposes.  This is a medically necessary surgery for some of us, and devaluing it to a body modification is something I cannot accept.

There needs to be standards exactly to prevent this, and we need to keep this a TS and IS ONLY surgery.  Its medically necessary for us, and letting people do it for body modification would devalue it and cause untold damage.

This is so right on, Amy. Already it's been damn near impossible for us to get our serious medical needs covered by insurance because transphobes accuse us it's "elective surgery" (the hell it is, unless a frickin appendectomy is elective too), they compare it to getting a "nose job" which is as ignorant and stupid as it gets--but that has been the prevalent attitude on the whole, which makes life that much harder on us. Some smart alecks have also tried to put us down by comparing TS to aptonemophilia, a word I never would have heard of except for transphobes, it's a mental illness in which people feel the need to amputate healthy limbs. As Amy said, we are just now beginning to find a little hard-won understanding and rights, but this devalues our specific experience and needs, we are not mentally ill or doing this for kicks--and until the public understands that, we'll never be anything in their eyes but a freak show. It has serious real-life consequences for us, like no insurance coverage.

I don't care in the slightest whatever bod-mod individuals may choose for themselves--go ahead, knock yourself out, it's your body--but this has nothing whatever to do with TS and my tolerance of your fun ends at the line where it infringes on my rights.

Quote from: Hypatia on October 08, 2007, 06:17:12 AM
This is so right on, Amy. Already it's been damn near impossible for us to get our serious medical needs covered by insurance because transphobes accuse us it's "elective surgery" (the hell it is, unless a frickin appendectomy is elective too), they compare it to getting a "nose job" which is as ignorant and stupid as it gets--but that has been the prevalent attitude on the whole, which makes life that much harder on us. Some smart alecks have also tried to put us down by comparing TS to aptonemophilia, a word I never would have heard of except for transphobes, it's a mental illness in which people feel the need to amputate healthy limbs. As Amy said, we are just now beginning to find a little hard-won understanding and rights, but this devalues our specific experience and needs, we are not mentally ill or doing this for kicks--and until the public understands that, we'll never be anything in their eyes but a freak show. It has serious real-life consequences for us, like no insurance coverage.

I don't care in the slightest whatever bod-mod individuals may choose for themselves--go ahead, knock yourself out, it's your body--but this has nothing whatever to do with TS and my tolerance of your fun ends at the line where it infringes on my rights.

Alison has already addressed how you can have the same surgery being considered elective in some circumstances and being medically necessary in others.  It's really quite simple, get diagnosed as having gender dysphoria and it's medically necessary, can't/won't get diagnosed then it's elective and you have to pay for it.

I find it quite ironic that you're accusing people of "infringing on my rights" when it's YOU who is infringing on people's rights not them.  It never ceases to amaze me how ready people are to trample on other groups of people to further their own ends rather than fight the more difficult (but in the end more rewarding) battle of properly educating people about the issue and allowing both groups of people to do what they want/require.

I don't think anybody should be considered a freak show, be it body mod types or TG people.  I'd rather fight for everybodys rights to be themselves than just fight the selfish battle for my own.

The thing is I don't think Alison grasps it, or really the long term implications of this.  Trust me this would hurt us more than anything else, and I am not about to stick up for anybody who does SRS for kicks or as a "body mod".  It suggests they are using a surgery that we have fought long and hard to get recognized as medically necessary and are FINALLY gaining some leeway on, and devaluing it. 

This "body mod" attitude was EXACTLY why the standards of care were even created, these are the exact people WHO SHOULDN'T get this surgery.

Also the BA for breast cancer survivors is a poor example.  Breast cancer survivors have not had one of the worst histories of civil rights in this country and were at least taken seriously from the start.  We on the other hand are constantly devalued.  Its a poor example and ignores a fundamental societal position that we are in. The only way that we are going to gain any insurance coverage is to prove this is medically necessary, people who identify as male (and I am sorry if you were born male, identify as male, and live as male you are NOT transgender) should not have ANY access to SRS.  If one opens the doors to body modification, one CLOSES the doors to years of hard fought battles with insurance providers, and slams the door shut that was just beginning to open.   

The SoC were set up so we could one day get insurance coverage.  SRS should be strictly for those who are transsexual and those born intersex, and it ends there, if SRS was available to anybody else one runs the risk of infringing on our rights. 

There are PLENTLY of surgeries which are only performed on those with a diagnosed medical condition.  We are not trampling on any rights of people who IDENTIFY AS MALE.  Rather we are making sure that we keep our ground for hard fought battles regarding a surgery that is medically necessary for us.  The minute it becomes "elective" or a "body mod" for anybody, is the minute we lose access to any possibility of this being covered for insurance.

The truth is those of us who oppose this have a much deeper understanding of the implications.  The door is only open to TS and IS individuals for a REASON, and this surgery needs to STAY that way.  The minute we open that door, the damage regarding society and medical insurance may be too much to repair.  Individual rights and choice only matter when it does not do untold amount of damage to a group on a societal and medical basis that blocks any future advancement.  Sorry...by doing this they are stepping on TS and IS peoples toes in a big way.  This is not hypocrisy, it is the reality that our individual rights for this surgery and it being respected as a legitimate medical procedure that is seen as medically necessary, trumpets a persons desire for an elective body modification that has NOTHING to do with a medical condition.  I could go beyond the medical implications, because the societal ones are even worse. 

There is a reason why surgeons keep this as a TS and IS only surgery.  Its for good reason.  They know the ethical, medical, insurance and societal issues this creates the minute this becomes an ellective surgery that somebody who does not have a medical justification gets it.  The long term issues that this present is astonishing.  Thats the problem Alison, you do not grasp AT ALL the problems this would create. 

Quote from: Amy T. on October 08, 2007, 09:04:25 AM
The thing is I don't think Alison grasps it, or really the long term implications of this.  Trust me this would hurt us more than anything else, and I am not about to stick up for anybody who does SRS for kicks or as a "body mod".  It suggests they are using a surgery that we have fought long and hard to get recognized as medically necessary and are FINALLY gaining some leeway on, and devaluing it. 

This "body mod" attitude was EXACTLY why the standards of care were even created, these are the exact people WHO SHOULDN'T get this surgery.

The SoC were set up so we could one day get insurance coverage.  SRS should be strictly for those who are transsexual and those born intersex, and it ends there, if SRS was available to anybody else one runs the risk of infringing on our rights. 

Alison grasps it, as do I.  Maybe it would hurt us, but I'm a firm believer that anybody who tries to deny other people rights to improve their own situation makes it ok for other people to do the same and therefore can't complain when they themselves get a raw deal.

I'm not a massive fan of the SoC.  In my opinion the medical profession should simply determine if the patient is sane and knows the risks and downsides to whatever they want to do.  Diagnosis of GID should only be necessary to get insurance coverage (or free healthcare in countries that have it).

I guess if only TS and IS people are allowed SRS that rules me out then...

I am sorry, neither you nor Alison really do understand this.  As much as you don't like the Standards of Care.  I don't like them either.  I know for a fact this has to be restricted to transsexual and intersex individuals.  PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

If you don't grasp this, you really do not grasp the long term fight that has been going on for years.  It would ruin the party.  The medical establishment who handles TS medicine has taken years to establish the proceedures of TS medicine as legitimate, and this overnight would destroy that legitimacy and cause significant damage.

It is your and Alisons lack of grasping that issue which is at the source of the problem here.  Those of us who say absolutely not, have a much deeper understanding of the implications of how this could unravel years of work on both the part of the medical and activist community.

It is something you obviously do not understand and do not grasp. 

Quote from: Amy T. on October 08, 2007, 09:25:03 AM
I am sorry, neither you nor Alison really do understand this.  As much as you don't like the Standards of Care.  I don't like them either.  I know for a fact this has to be restricted to transsexual and intersex individuals.  PLAIN AND SIMPLE.

If you don't grasp this, you really do not grasp the long term fight that has been going on for years.  It would ruin the party.  The medical establishment who handles TS medicine has taken years to establish the proceedures of TS medicine as legitimate, and this overnight would destroy that legitimacy and cause significant damage.

It is your and Alisons lack of grasping that issue which is at the source of the problems. 

Can you please explain to me in simple words exactly what I'm missing then because it seems to me that I'm getting what you're saying but considering it a secondary concern to my personal moral code.

SIMPLE TERMS.
The MINUTE this gets performed on somebody who is NOT TS or IS is the MINUTE that this is PERMANENTLY considered an ELECTIVE SURGERY by insurance companies, the medical field, the government, and society.  All GAINS we have made in recent years go up in a puff of smoke because somebody wants this as a body modification.  Its the ultimate pandora's box.  If you do not grasp this, you have serious issues of thinking about things on a higher level and cannot grasp the social, medical, and political complexity of being transsexual. 

I have explained everything in my posts, if you don't grasp the issues, you have serious problems, and there are serious issues with your own moral code.  You simply do not get it. 

Quote from: Amy T. on October 08, 2007, 09:32:36 AM
SIMPLE TERMS.
The MINUTE this gets performed on somebody who is NOT TS or IS is the MINUTE that this is PERMANENTLY considered an ELECTIVE SURGERY by insurance companies, the medical field, the government, and society.  All GAINS we have made in recent years go up in a puff of smoke because somebody wants this as a body modification.  Its the ultimate pandora's box.  If you do not grasp this, you have serious issues of thinking about things on a higher level and cannot grasp the social, medical, and political complexity of being transsexual. 

I have explained everything in my posts, if you don't grasp the issues, you have serious problems, and there are serious issues with your own moral code.  You simply do not get it. 

I don't see how someone who is into body modification has any impact on myself.  They are not diagnised with GID while I am.  The accepted medical treatment of my disorder is GRS.  Someone who is into body modification is not even under the transgender classification to my knowledge.

Quote from: Amy T. on October 08, 2007, 09:32:36 AM
SIMPLE TERMS.
The MINUTE this gets performed on somebody who is NOT TS or IS is the MINUTE that this is PERMANENTLY considered an ELECTIVE SURGERY by insurance companies, the medical field, the government, and society.  All GAINS we have made in recent years go up in a puff of smoke because somebody wants this as a body modification.  Its the ultimate pandora's box.  If you do not grasp this, you have serious issues of thinking about things on a higher level and cannot grasp the social, medical, and political complexity of being transsexual. 

I have explained everything in my posts, if you don't grasp the issues, you have serious problems, and there are serious issues with your own moral code.  You simply do not get it. 

I think you're rather overstating how quickly it'd happen but yep I agree it opens a pandora's box.  As somebody who has been shoved on a 6 year waiting list by the NHS to even see a therapist about gender issues I understand the problems that can be faced all too well. 

You can insult my intelligence if you want but I'm thinking from a wider perspective of freedoms in general not such a TScentric view of the universe. 

This kind of thing makes me laugh when I think about it alongside people complaining about non-transinclusive ENDA.  Think about your problems and yours only, the world turns out fine that way... Right?

Quote from: Amy T. on October 08, 2007, 09:25:03 AM
I have explained everything in my posts, if you don't grasp the issues, you have serious problems, and there are serious issues with your own moral code.  You simply do not get it.

I don't get it either.
It is the reason for a surgery that should make it covered by insurance, not the surgery in it self. We could draw a parelell with electrolysis. I get full financial coverance for it through the swedish health care system. How is that possible when electrolysis is aviable to anyone who wants it? Using your reasoning shouldn't the liberal aviability of electrolysis devalue my use of it, resulting in no financial support? I fail to see that your point is as big as you are making it.

Taking the medical issues are in part central to the issues.  Also this is separate from the ENDA issues, this is dealing with a procedure that is central to the treatment of transsexual and intersex people, and one that gets a great deal of public attention.  In other words, its under a microscope. 

I don't see this as a personal freedom issue either, there are plenty of procedures that you can only get if you are diagnosed with a condition.  Its part of medicine.  SRS should be kept out of the realm of mere plastic surgery, if it will ever be covered by insurance, it should only be available to those diagnosed with those condition(s).  I am not a fan of the wait, but I am a firm believer in this concept.  The minute it  becomes cosmetic in any form it opens widespread societal risks.  If you do not believe this is the case, you have very little grasp of TS long embattled history where we are just starting to make some headway on. 

Sorry our rights for insurance coverage, medical, political and societal respect, are more important than somebodies desire to get this surgery as an elective body modification.

At least I understand history and at least I grasp the issue with greater depth. I cannot say the same for you.  Maybe you are on the waiting list for a reason.  Which by the way, if this surgery were to get outside of TS and IS only, guess what, there goes your chances of ever getting it covered by the NHS. 

Quote from: Amy T. on October 08, 2007, 09:55:46 AM
At least I understand history and at least I grasp the issue with greater depth. I cannot say the same for you.  Maybe you are on the waiting list for a reason.

You know, we are all here to show our points of view, and none of us will ever agree on everything.  But this last sentence I don't think was needed at all.  It does nothing to prove your point except add fuel to the fire.

Amy T: You know, it's possible for two people to both understand an issue and still have different opinions on it.  We all look at an issue and process it through our own set of values and priorities which gives a large scope for differing opinons.  It's rather tactless to repeatedly accuse somebody of not grasping the issue even after you've explained it to them.

Lots of debate. But somehow it seems the obvious question is, "Isn't a boy/man with a vagina a female to male or transman?" So what's the difference if a man wants a vagina and stay male? Man becomes transman?

Ok, I know all the implications and legal entanglements associated with this question, but it's hard to argue with one surgeon performing SRS who has stated it doesn't matter what the patient looks like, whether or not they pass, if the surgery is appropriate for them, then they'll do it. It still means the medical (WPATH) protocol has to be followed but to what extent to stay within it? If some post-op transwomen don't even begin to pass, what's wrong with a man having a vagina if they understand and accept the consequences?

--Susan--

You know, this morning, before I went to work this thread was about Body Modification, specifically that of the genitals...
Now I come home (several hours later), and can't figure out whether the thread is about SRS, NHS or foul treatment of gender dysphoria.... *scratches head*

Whoever wanted to see whether or not a gascan would lit on if thrown on a bonfire certainly got their answer. Too bad the actual purpose of this thread burnt along. Pity.

However, the funny thing is... One of the main reasons I'm open minded towards body modification is because I have spent the last few months talking with individuals who alter their biological chemical system and have their groin reconstructed. Now I find that several of those individuals in question don't seem very openminded about body modification...

Let's call that... irony.  ;) 8)

Chuckles, "I've found the discussion fascinating and informative, ifn its not the discussion I was looking for. I did realize this would be a divisive issue, but information on this kind of topic isn't all that available, certainly not when you're desires don't fit into the nice neat boxes society likes to use for everything. I agree, allowing this kind of modification is dangerous and opens a can of worms, but while it can have its negatives, it could wind up being very positive. Like tattoos or body piercings which one can't say are truly accepted by society, the desensitization of these modifications has made them easier and safer to get, and maybe cheaper (I'm not old enough to answer that one). The same thing could happen with surgeries like this, greater availability, greater safety from experience, and possibly a reduction in price from the availability of competition."

"But, getting back to the original topic, with a modification like this, the largest question is what to do about the testes, and what if any are the dangers of retaining them internally. I would assume that to a degree recovery is likely easier, since there'd be slightly less modifications, particularly in the area of hormones. I'm sure any other dangers or complications in this kind of surgery are well covered on the board as far as the normal choices go."

Quote from: RedJack on October 08, 2007, 02:48:11 PM
Chuckles, "I've found the discussion fascinating and informative, ifn its not the discussion I was looking for. I did realize this would be a divisive issue, but information on this kind of topic isn't all that available, certainly not when you're desires don't fit into the nice neat boxes society likes to use for everything. I agree, allowing this kind of modification is dangerous and opens a can of worms, but while it can have its negatives, it could wind up being very positive. Like tattoos or body piercings which one can't say are truly accepted by society, the desensitization of these modifications has made them easier and safer to get, and maybe cheaper (I'm not old enough to answer that one). The same thing could happen with surgeries like this, greater availability, greater safety from experience, and possibly a reduction in price from the availability of competition."

"But, getting back to the original topic, with a modification like this, the largest question is what to do about the testes, and what if any are the dangers of retaining them internally. I would assume that to a degree recovery is likely easier, since there'd be slightly less modifications, particularly in the area of hormones. I'm sure any other dangers or complications in this kind of surgery are well covered on the board as far as the normal choices go."

I agree more acceptance breeds more demand --> more training --> more doctors --> a safer more cost effective surgery.

Re: your question about retaining the testes internally.  It is an interesting question, but sadly one most people here are unable to accurately answer.  As I am not a medical professional; I can only theorize.  I would assume retaining the testes is probably the safer way to do it as you wouldn't have to take HRT for the remainder of your life, but then there is the question of <i> where? </i>

Quote from: Alison on October 08, 2007, 03:02:05 PM

Quote from: RedJack on October 08, 2007, 02:48:11 PM
"But, getting back to the original topic, with a modification like this, the largest question is what to do about the testes, and what if any are the dangers of retaining them internally. I would assume that to a degree recovery is likely easier, since there'd be slightly less modifications, particularly in the area of hormones. I'm sure any other dangers or complications in this kind of surgery are well covered on the board as far as the normal choices go."

I agree more acceptance breeds more demand --> more training --> more doctors --> a safer more cost effective surgery.

Re: your question about retaining the testes internally.  It is an interesting question, but sadly one most people here are unable to accurately answer.  As I am not a medical professional; I can only theorize.  I would assume retaining the testes is probably the safer way to do it as you wouldn't have to take HRT for the remainder of your life, but then there is the question of <i> where? </i>

That might not be as difficult as it seems, look at hermaphrodites who may have any combination of ovaries and testes located where the ovaries are in a female, that suggests that there is space for them, or at least one, hence the idea.

Quote from: RedJack on October 08, 2007, 02:48:11 PM
"But, getting back to the original topic, with a modification like this, the largest question is what to do about the testes, and what if any are the dangers of retaining them internally. I would assume that to a degree recovery is likely easier, since there'd be slightly less modifications, particularly in the area of hormones. I'm sure any other dangers or complications in this kind of surgery are well covered on the board as far as the normal choices go."

On Anne Lawrence's website in the Vaginoplasty Results section there's a result by Dr Meltzer where the testes were preserved.  (Following link is GRAPHIC and NOT SAFE FOR WORK) http://www.annelawrence.com/meltzer1297.html (http://www.annelawrence.com/meltzer1297.html).  Meltzer would require the standard transition path and therapists letters before performing surgery, I've never heard of anybody else doing such an operation but that doesn't mean it hasn't happened.

Quote from: Butterfly on October 08, 2007, 01:51:36 AM
My body is my choice.  That's the reason I'm having my hands and feet amputated next week.  >:D

oh oh i want to chop off my fingers too.  that's going to be a terrific look.  yeah! could you be so kind to recommend me to your butcher surgeon....so that i can report him.  >:D

Quote from: Katia on October 08, 2007, 05:43:19 PM

Quote from: Butterfly on October 08, 2007, 01:51:36 AM
My body is my choice.  That's the reason I'm having my hands and feet amputated next week.  >:D

oh oh i want to chop off my fingers too.  that's going to be a terrific look.  yeah! could you be so kind to recommend me to your butcher surgeon....so that i can report him.  >:D

Snickers, "Don't say that too loud, with some of the weird modifications people do, someone might take a liking to that idea."

Oh I'm into body modification.  I got my ears pierced.  And I cut my finger and toe nails.  Hair, too, but not too often.

Quote from: Katia on October 08, 2007, 05:43:19 PM

Quote from: Butterfly on October 08, 2007, 01:51:36 AM
My body is my choice.  That's the reason I'm having my hands and feet amputated next week.  >:D

oh oh i want to chop off my fingers too.  that's going to be a terrific look.  yeah! could you be so kind to recommend me to your butcher surgeon....so that i can report him.  >:D

I don't think he's taking new victims patients but you could try calling him.  His name is Dr. Jack Ripper.  His toll free # 1800-DISMEMBERME  You can also find more information about him on the bloody yellow pages. ~laugh~ >:D

Quote from: Butterfly on October 09, 2007, 03:24:44 PM
I don't think he's taking new victims patients but you could try calling him.  His name is Dr. Jack Ripper.  His toll free # 1800-DISMEMBERME  You can also find more information about him on the bloody yellow pages. ~laugh~ >:D

It's not nearly as funny as you think.  Ever hear of "Doctor Butcher" John Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ronald_Brown)?  He made his name by making a butchered mess of transsexuals.  Later he expanded into "helping" people with amputation fetishes.

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 09, 2007, 03:35:41 PM
It's not nearly as funny as you think.  Ever hear of "Doctor Butcher" John Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ronald_Brown)?  He made his name by making a butchered mess of transsexuals.  Later he expanded into "helping" people with amputation fetishes.

Reminds me of a guy around here, somewhere in Pennsylvania, who would perform Orchis on anyone in his home for free... because he was turned on by castrating "men."

Scary thing was, a number of people on an email list I belonged to went to see him, and pretty much everyone on the list cheered them on with "You GO girl!" support. I pointed out it was reckless and stupid, and was promptly skewered by everyone for not being "supportive."

~Kate~

Quote from: Lisbeth on October 09, 2007, 03:35:41 PM

Quote from: Butterfly on October 09, 2007, 03:24:44 PM
I don't think he's taking new victims patients but you could try calling him.  His name is Dr. Jack Ripper.  His toll free # 1800-DISMEMBERME  You can also find more information about him on the bloody yellow pages. ~laugh~ >:D

It's not nearly as funny as you think.  Ever hear of "Doctor Butcher" John Brown (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ronald_Brown)?  He made his name by making a butchered mess of transsexuals.  Later he expanded into "helping" people with amputation fetishes.

That was exactly my point.  That people are treating their amputation fetishes as something ordinary and normal.

You know,  the amount of hypocritical and condescending judgmentalness here is more than a little sickening. Nowhere has it been mentioned in the original post that the motivation was sexual or a fetish of any kind. It smells exactly the same as those who like to label TS-identified people as perverts or worse.

Some here whine and complain that normal people aren't accepting when they're just as loath to give out that same acceptance and tolerance.

Who are any of you to determine what is or is not 'normal'?

If you can manage to answer that question without being completely hypocritical then you might see what the real problem is here.

Quote from: Jaycie on October 09, 2007, 04:29:00 PM
You know,  the amount of hypocritical and condescending judgmentalness here is more than a little sickening. Nowhere has it been mentioned in the original post that the motivation was sexual or a fetish of any kind. It smells exactly the same as those who like to label TS-identified people as perverts or worse.

Some here whine and complain that normal people aren't accepting when they're just as loath to give out that same acceptance and tolerance.

Who are any of you to determine what is or is not 'normal'?

If you can manage to answer that question without being completely hypocritical then you might see what the real problem is here.

I may be reading things wrong then:

Quote from: RedJack on October 07, 2007, 11:27:41 PM
MMm, I may be on the cutting edge and the first one, but I suspect that this question will arise as time goes on. Sex is changing, porn is no longer vanilla, the internet has certainly opened people's eyes to what's out there, what the other choices are. Right now radical body mods are thins like penile splitting, tongue splitting, or nullification. All of these are done for fun, sexual pleasure, or for other rather casual reasons. Breast enhancement is no longer considered odd, yet go back what, 30 years ago? It would've been a radical mod now. I think ideas such as mine will become more mainstream with two simple and connected changes, one is the acceptance of one to choose their gender, and with that acceptance will become a greater availability of the surgery. Right, wrong or indifferent, one of two ages is coming, a dark age thanks to the religious right or an age of greater enlightenment (not sure I'd go that far), and if its the latter, I suspect that like many things, it'll become hip to make changes like this, starting like tattoos did with a small niche community and growing. While this is perhaps not quite the right place for this question, its likely the only place to turn in the quest to sate my curiosity about the viability of it.

Jaycie, you want to support people cutting their bodies to pieces?, fine do it.  This is not the place for it.  This is a support site for the TG community to deal with gender issues and besides this thread was posted in the MTF section so it's located in the wrong place.  Can some of the moderators move it somewhere else?

Quote from: RedJack on October 07, 2007, 11:27:41 PM
While this is perhaps not quite the right place for this question

It is in the wrong place.  Maybe the sexuality section.  Dunno.

Hi Jaycie
You are quite right. Even though self mutilation disgusts me I would not refuse to go to one who was in need of support.

Fortunately the only people with self mutilation I have had the experience of working with as a Social Worker for twenty years were those that cut themselves, usually the wrist area with a sharp object. I have never refused anyone help whether they be black white purple and blue pink or what religion they believed in.

Getting up in the middle of the night to go extricate a severely beat up mom with little ones in tow. Now I may not agree with self mutilation but it would not deter me from going to their aid if needed be.   

QuoteSome here whine and complain that people aren't accepting when they're just as loath to give out that same acceptance and tolerance

Cindy

I moved it to health, because MtF wasn't the right place for this, but Sexuality isn't the right place either.

QuoteJaycie, you want to support people cutting their bodies to pieces?, fine do it.  This is not the place for it.  This is a support site for the TG community to deal with gender issues and besides this thread was posted in the MTF section so it's located in the wrong place.  Can some of the moderators move it somewhere else?

If you'd really like for me to point out the obvious,  SRS/GRS IS in many cases cutting a healthy body 'to pieces'. Now with that little detail out of the way i can say that yes,  i want to support people cutting their bodies to pieces in ways that they see fit without throwing down pointless and quite often factless judgments about them. People are going to do what people want to do. Making sure there are safe and effective ways to achieve those goals would be a better and more productive aim for all involved.

Quote
It is in the wrong place.  Maybe the sexuality section.  Dunno.

Again,  trying to assign something as sexual in nature without a rational basis to do so stinks of trying to minimize it into just a perversion which is a hypocritical act at best.

QuoteYou are quite right. Even though self mutilation disgusts me I would not refuse to go to one who was in need of support.

On this point,  why bother labeling it as 'self mutilation'?  That type of wording just marginalizes the idea in a different way but still in a way that isn't exactly productive. Self mutilation can be a quite subjective thing sometimes.

Hmmm, I will agree that this thread doesn't really fit this forum, but then I doubt it really fits anywhere, at least as far as looking for information on the difficulties and dangers of doing this, but of any place one could pic, and transgendered forum is probably the best, its the place most likely to have specific knowledge of the risks one would face in this, at least knowledge that's not going to be 'I heard...'." As to the reason, right now curiosity, I'll honestly admit that I haven't seriously reviewed my motivation yet, more important to me right now is to consider can it be done, what are the risks, and is there anyone who can do it. If the answer to any of those makes it impossible, then motivation is not really important, now is it? After finding that out, then we can decide whether we really want to, and why, no?

Quote from: RedJack on October 09, 2007, 05:14:13 PM
Hmmm, I will agree that this thread doesn't really fit this forum, but then I doubt it really fits anywhere, at least as far as looking for information on the difficulties and dangers of doing this, but of any place one could pic, and transgendered forum is probably the best, its the place most likely to have specific knowledge of the risks one would face in this, at least knowledge that's not going to be 'I heard...'." As to the reason, right now curiosity, I'll honestly admit that I haven't seriously reviewed my motivation yet, more important to me right now is to consider can it be done, what are the risks, and is there anyone who can do it. If the answer to any of those makes it impossible, then motivation is not really important, now is it? After finding that out, then we can decide whether we really want to, and why, no?

There isn't a specific forum that this topic fits in sadly.  The best forum I can figure going to your original topic, it's a health question.

Can it be done?  Sure I really don't see why it couldn't be physically possible.  The risks and such is where I'm not sure.. but this forum is a good place for that discussion :)

Quote from: Jaycie on October 09, 2007, 05:12:23 PM
If you'd really like for me to point out the obvious,  SRS/GRS IS in many cases cutting a healthy body 'to pieces'.

Coming from someone who ISN'T TS, your statement doesn't surprise me at all.  A person who is not TS would need to be born again, have severe GID, live their lives in the wrong body in order to understand that GRS is not what you implied, so I don't blame you for thinking as you do.

Quote from: Butterfly on October 09, 2007, 05:22:23 PM

Quote from: Jaycie on October 09, 2007, 05:12:23 PM
If you'd really like for me to point out the obvious,  SRS/GRS IS in many cases cutting a healthy body 'to pieces'.

Coming from someone who ISN'T TS, your statement doesn't surprise me at all.  A person who is not TS would need to be born again, have severe GID, live their lives in the wrong body in order to understand that GRS is not what you implied, so I don't blame you for thinking as you do.

Oops.  You know what they say about 'assume'...

As another person who has GID of sufficient severity to justify obtaining SRS I second what Jaycie said. 

Most non-IS m2fs have perfectly healthy male bodies.  Fixing a screw-up in the brain by screwing up the body in a matching way is a body modification.  I NEED to pursue this surgery to deal with my GID, but it doesn't change what it is.

Quote from: Butterfly on October 09, 2007, 05:22:23 PM
Coming from someone who ISN'T TS, your statement doesn't surprise me at all.  A person who is not TS would need to be born again, have severe GID, live their lives in the wrong body in order to understand that GRS is not what you implied, so I don't blame you for thinking as you do.

Wow...  So,  for your next trick will you tell me who my biological mother's parents really are since you seem to know so much about me that i haven't said? I mean if you're that adept at knowing things you haven't been told then you must be able to use those abilities further.  ^_~

Back to the actual point though. Your assumption isn't exactly accurate either,  depending on your definition of the term TS that is. Seeing as that i do plan on SRS in the future and still do hold to my previous statements.  :)

Oh, and one last thing.  What i am or even what i'm not isn't exactly the topic of this thread. So, the sooner back to the original topic the better.  Thanks.  ^_~

Back to the original topic, I would say the risk would be infertility. Testes don't function well in higher temperatures.

And, for the record, I agree with Alison, Andra, Jaycie and others who've said that there is an awful lot of judgement happening here, especially considering our own marginalized status. I also don't see that allowing body modders to do whatever they want has an impact on us at all.

Dennis

Hi Butterfly

That statement irked me some as well. The way I look at it is that it is corrective surgery to remove a deformity that should not have been there to start with, as well as bringing the innerself in line with the outer self. It was either that for me or turn myself into hamburger crashing my car into a rock cut. Or as I use to boast when in my teens that when I left I would leave in a fire ball of glory, hey I tried to. :o)  The first option wasn't a very appealing alternative and although the second one was a little more appealing, my will to survive won out.

Cindy

Quote from: cindybc on October 09, 2007, 05:54:51 PM
Hi Butterfly

That statement irked me some as well. The way I look at it is that it is corrective surgery to remove a deformity that should not have been there to start with

In what way should the deformity not have been there to start with?  Like a lot of people here you were probably somebody born with functional male genitals and XY chromosomes, where's the physical deformity there?  Isn't the real deformity having XY chromosomes and a female mind?

Quote from: Butterfly on October 09, 2007, 05:22:23 PM

Quote from: Jaycie on October 09, 2007, 05:12:23 PM
If you'd really like for me to point out the obvious,  SRS/GRS IS in many cases cutting a healthy body 'to pieces'.

Coming from someone who ISN'T TS, your statement doesn't surprise me at all.  A person who is not TS would need to be born again, have severe GID, live their lives in the wrong body in order to understand that GRS is not what you implied, so I don't blame you for thinking as you do.

i concord.  that statement is very inflammatory.  it's the same garbage we hear from surgeons and ppl that consider grs to be 'elective' or 'cosmetic'.  well put.  if you ain't ts, you don't know & will never know.  btw that applies to ppl that 'believe' they are ts too.  believing you are ts doesnt make you ts., capiche?

Quote from: Katia on October 09, 2007, 06:34:10 PM
i concord.  that statement is very inflammatory.  it's the same garbage we hear from surgeons and ppl that consider grs to be 'elective' or 'cosmetic'.  well put.  if you ain't, you don't know & will never.  btw that applies for ppl that 'believe' they are ts too.  believing is not being ts, capiche?

Er not really.  I believe SRS to be entirely necessary, and only 'elective' in the same way that any surgery is elective (you can refuse to have an operation for breast cancer, it's just not a good idea).  You can believe it's a modification or even mutilation and still believe it's entirely necessary.

Quote from: Katia on October 09, 2007, 06:34:10 PM
i concord.  that statement is very inflammatory.  it's the same garbage we hear from surgeons and ppl that consider grs to be 'elective' or 'cosmetic'.  well put.  if you ain't ts, you don't know & will never know.  btw that applies to ppl that 'believe' they are ts too.  believing you are ts doesnt make you ts., capiche?

Isn't all of that rather irrelevant to the factual nature of performing a surgery that provides a primarily mental rather than physical benefit is still quite easy to consider 'cutting to pieces'? Also, what you may or may not believe about somebody else's condition is also irrelevant to, honestly, anyone else here.  ( Or at least should be since it's nothing more than text on a screen. ) :)  Nobody here is in any position to hand out diagnoses to other members or to tell someone what they are or are not and what they should or should not do medically.  ^_^

I'm with Dennis.  Being judgmental doesn't help anybody.

   There was another post on this site concerning the post gender thing.  there is an article here that shows the female bodied born point of view.
http://www.bmezine.com/news/pubring/20070804.html (http://www.bmezine.com/news/pubring/20070804.html)

   I understand that RedJack (if that's his real name - [/snicker]) is male. However, I also believe that the most likely way to dissuade him in the event that he really is way of track, is to help inform him.

   I did see pictures of an MtF who had their testes implanted up into the lower abdomen, however, from my experience (don't ask) that is a good way to feel like you've been kicked there when, or if, you ever fool around with another person again.  The last place you would ever want your testes is in your abdomen or any other place where they may receive unwelcome and unexpected pressure.  In my opinion.

  Other reasons in my view that you may not want to have such severe body mod performed on your genitals is that there is the possibility that you'll lose sexual sensation and the possibility that if the wrong thing is nicked, and I'm talking about things we haven't discussed like the urethra, you could end up with lifelong discomfort or even pain.
  In the case of having a vagina installed, there is also the possibility of having a nick of some kind that allows feces to leak into your body.
  I am not making this up.  If I'm wrong, then someone should correct me, however, these are facts that I've read about during all of my personal research.

  There is also the reversibility issue where you may decide that you want to have children with someone.  I guess if your testes are working, you can always have sperm taken in a lab, but how are you going to explain this to your partner?  Which kind of leads up to the notion of how are you going to begin a relationship with someone?  Full disclosure up front, or spring it as a surprise?
  Also, is this the way you really want to live?  It may sound cutting edge, but what kind of people do you hang out with?  Are they going to know?  At some time, if you ever have a physical relationship, it's probably going to get out.  I guess there's the possibility that you'll just tell everyone who'll listen, but maybe you should go around and pretend that you are doing that when you see the people you associate with.

  As for me, whatever you want is your own business and is fine with me. I just feel that this thread has been missing the point that the 'can it be done' question applies to your self esteem and mental health as much as it applies to the physical aspect.

---

   A note for the TS crowd who are only pro TS surgery.
   There happens to be a group of people here who are not TS and who desire some modification or nullification in order to truly be happy.  Our situation is not so black or white as yours, however, it would be nice if you consider that we not only have feelings, but also needs that are very similar to your own and just as important.
   You're not the only ones who suffer GID and have to drag yourselves through modes of suicide.  At least you have a chance to receive your care. The establishment doesn't even recognize us null gendered ones.  When you're all happy 70 year old women, we'll still be passing in and out of dysphoric phases of maladjustment.

   You have shown me that everything is not only possible, but also achievable. Please stop blowing off the needs of rest of us.  It hurts.


I really mean no one no harm,


Rebis
   
 

   

QuoteI'm with Dennis.  Being judgmental doesn't help anybody.

It really doesn't -- we all encounter enough judgment in life, why must we continuously judge each other?  Try acceptance on for size.. It's easier. :)

QuoteThe last place you would ever want your testes is in your abdomen or any other place where they may receive unwelcome and unexpected pressure.  In my opinion.

Fair point I never even considered, if you bump into a table edge or something like that?   :o

QuoteWhich kind of leads up to the notion of how are you going to begin a relationship with someone?  Full disclosure up front, or spring it as a surprise?

Another fair point -- I'm a big supporter of full disclosure for significant others.  Your SO really can't even begin to understand and accept until they know.

QuoteA note for the TS crowd who are only pro TS surgery.
   There happens to be a group of people here who are not TS and who desire some modification or nullification in order to truly be happy.  Our situation is not so black or white as yours, however, it would be nice if you consider that we not only have feelings, but also needs that are very similar to your own and just as important.
   You're not the only ones who suffer GID and have to drag yourselves through modes of suicide.  At least you have a chance to receive your care. The establishment doesn't even recognize us null gendered ones.  When you're all happy 70 year old women, we'll still be passing in and out of dysphoric phases of maladjustment.

   You have shown me that everything is not only possible, but also achievable. Please stop blowing off the needs of rest of us.  It hurts.

GID is not a concept unique to just transexuals.  As well as dysphoria, there are even cisgendered individuals that suffer at least some extent of body dysphoria.

It does hurt.  To be brushed aside as if this entire population of people doesn't exist because their identity is difficult to understand?  It sounds very familiar, history is repeating itself.  We're all members of a minority group and it would be very beneficial to all involved if we could support each other, hence why we all gathered here at Susan's in the first place.

[begin or rant] Hmmmm.....I have heard the same rubbish before, but thankfully there have been great answers to undermine the veiled bigotry of some.  I have, of course, memorized to the very detail where those greatest quotes are on this site. I will use them every time I hear the same BS from some of you.[/end of rant]

Quote from: DawnL on August 27, 2006, 08:46:17 PM

Quote from: elleane on August 27, 2006, 03:33:46 AM
Perhaps you'd care to enlighten us as to exactly what you mean.
I must say that I'm increasingly concerned about the use of the term 'Gender Dysphoria'.  An implied incongruity between mind and body.

The mind is not the body - the body is not the mind.
Apples and oranges.

If you are suggesting that one is 'born into the wrong body'; that somehow one's physical attributes are incorrect and that surgical alteration is the solution, then in my mind that lies far nearer body dysmorphia than gender dysphoria. 
(and yes I'm aware of the body of work that is oft quoted/referenced, largely by the TS community, to dispute this notion)

elleane
xxx

Wow!  "The mind is not the body - the body is not the mind. Apples and oranges."

Funny, they're all connected together, more like the apple and the tree or the orange and the tree than apples and oranges.  Your metaphor is suspect and very inflammatory.  Body dysmorphia, gender dysphoria.  Maybe they're the same thing.  One can have many body dysmorphias but perhaps when gender is involved, gender dysphoria is the result, maybe a subset of body dysmorphia.  Fact is, they're all stupid labels.  If a man or woman is considering ending their life because of a life-long dysphoria/dysmorphia, I don't really care what you call it, and if surgery is the cure, then surgery is the cure, the same for a heart bypass patient--the body of work that is oft quoted/referenced, largely by the non-TS, doubting, bigoted community aside.

Dawn

Ditto to what Dawn said.  Needless to say, I miss her wisdom dearly.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote[begin or rant] Hmmmm.....I have heard the same nonsense before, but thankfully there have greatest answers to undermine the veiled bigotry of some.  I have, of course, memorized to the very detail where those greatest quotes are and I will use them every time I hear the same BS from some of you.[/end of rant]

Tink -

Since you insist on going off topic.... <i> again</i>.

Care to point out the veiled bigotry? Because I must have missed it.

Poor Redjack is never going to have his questions answered.  :icon_no:

Quote from: Alison on October 09, 2007, 09:08:15 PM

Quote[begin or rant] Hmmmm.....I have heard the same nonsense before, but thankfully there have greatest answers to undermine the veiled bigotry of some.  I have, of course, memorized to the very detail where those greatest quotes are and I will use them every time I hear the same BS from some of you.[/end of rant]

Tink -

Since you insist on going off topic.... <i> again</i>.

Care to point out the veiled bigotry? Because I must have missed it.

Poor Redjack is never going to have his questions answered.  :icon_no:

Sorry to go off topic, but I wasn't here earlier to express my opinion on an issue that is very delicate and very profound to me.  Read the posts Alison and you will see it....Anyway, I now return you to your regular programming and sorry for going off topic again.

tink :icon_chick:

Quote
Sorry to go off topic, but I wasn't here earlier to express my opinion on an issue that is very delicate and very profound to me.  Read the posts Alison and you will see it....Anyway, I now return you to your regular programming and sorry for going off topic again.

So you posted on this thread to accuse <i>certain</i> people of bigotry, and when I ask you to elaborate where you see that, you decline an answer. 

What was the point?  To get a jab in?

To be truthful I do see some intolerance, but I think where we're seeing it lies on opposite sides of the tracks.

The point some of us have been making throughout this thread is that ones body is their own to do with as they choose.  I certainly hope you don't see this view as <i>bigoted</i>.  If you do, I'm honestly curious as to why?

QuoteYou don't have gender identity disorder, you don't qualify for genital reassignment surgery. No surgeon will agree to what you ask. The procedure to qualify for the surgery is lengthy, arduous, and pretty much impossible for anyone who doesn't have a severe level of GID. May I suggest you re-examine your priorities.

Hypatia. I do so agree with you. I need to get away from this thread, some of the things said I cannot even begin to conceive, nor do I need to feel like I am less then just being transsexual.

Cindy

QuotePoor Redjack is never going to have his questions answered. 

And which one of us is qualified to give poor Redjack the answers that he (I presume that at least his presentation is male, thus the third-person male pronoun) seeks?

Will the person who has sufficient medical education, experience, licensure, and board or Royal College acceptance please stand up and volunteer to sign-off on Redjack's papers?

As for Redjack, I personally recommend in my diagnosed and documented gender dysphoric condition that he stick to safer ideas, like permanent removal of pubic hair to achieve something streamlined or maybe an entire body hair removal, head to toe. 

This is my opinion and like everyone else, I have mine.  Having said that, I am out of this topic.

Wing Walker
Walking Away

*yawns* Too much bickering, not enough connection, not enough debating. This topic is out of this forum's league. Someone lock it already to prevent it from dragging on-and-on into a muddy abyss. There's really no point[...]  8)

Quote*yawns* Too much bickering, not enough connection, not enough debating. This topic is out of this forum's league. Someone lock it already to prevent it from dragging on-and-on into a muddy abyss. There's really no point[...]  Cool

May I please second that motion?

Respectfully,

Wing Walker

There is also some interesting discussion here. Gonna give it till morning and see what happens to it.

Dennis

Quote from: Chris on October 10, 2007, 02:32:52 AM
you gotta do with ur body what u wanna do.  if ppl wanna do with there bodies whatever they want, they should get it.  dont see a problem. :) :) :)

H Andra

QuoteIn what way should the deformity not have been there to start with?  Like a lot of people here you were probably somebody born with functional male genitals and XY chromosomes, where's the physical deformity there?  ]Isn't the real deformity having XY chromosomes and a female mind?

Hey I'm not a Dr, or anything like that, I am just a armature hobby astrophysicist & quantum physics. But yeah what you say makes sense to.

Cindy

Quote from: Tink on October 09, 2007, 09:11:19 PM
Sorry to go off topic, but I wasn't here earlier to express my opinion on an issue that is very delicate and very profound to me.  Read the posts Alison and you will see it....Anyway, I now return you to your regular programming and sorry for going off topic again.

We've been through this on this thread once already.  Forums are for discussion and exchange of ideas, if you want to state an opinion, state it.  Don't just tell other people to re-read what they have already read and in doing so imply they're incapable of comprehension just because they might not share your opinion.

Please feel free to throw my bull**** (as you call it) back at me.  If there are ever any apparent contradictions in my posts I'll be happy to explain further, or to have my error pointed out to me so I don't make the same mistake in the future.  :)

Quote from: Jaycie on October 09, 2007, 05:37:28 PM
Wow...  So,  for your next trick will you tell me who my biological mother's parents really are since you seem to know so much about me that i haven't said? I mean if you're that adept at knowing things you haven't been told then you must be able to use those abilities further.  ^_~

I quite know it isn't about you but since you asked how I know.  It was on your profile (androgyne, now I remember well).  I have also read posts from you & now the GRS issue where you implied that GRS is elective.  A TS (true TS) would never make a comparison of such magnitude because it's offensive to TS peeps.  There are peeps that do, but they are NON-TS and mostly hold transphobic, prejudiced viewpoints against trans women.

What a debate! Apparently I've been missing all the good stuff. :icon_sniff:

Quote from: RedJack on October 09, 2007, 05:14:13 PMAs to the reason, right now curiosity, I'll honestly admit that I haven't seriously reviewed my motivation yet, more important to me right now is to consider can it be done, what are the risks, and is there anyone who can do it. If the answer to any of those makes it impossible, then motivation is not really important, now is it? After finding that out, then we can decide whether we really want to, and why, no?

The MOTIVATION for this is very important. You need to search your soul before even considering 'body modification' of this magnitude. I really can't comprehend how a man would even be interested in genital modification.
As someone mentioned earlier, about going from man to transman - it's an entirely different thing.
I do love and accept my genitals as part of me, but I would never have CHOSEN to be a man with female or otherwise ambiguous genitalia. The motivation for a man to have any type of SRS completely escapes me.
Have you considered that you may have gender issues? That you may in fact be androgyne?

Quote from: Butterfly on October 10, 2007, 04:10:37 AM
I quite know it isn't about you but since you asked how I know.  It was on your profile (androgyne, now I remember well).  I have also read posts from you & now the GRS issue where you implied that GRS is elective.  A TS (true TS) would never make a comparison of such magnitude because it's offensive to TS peeps.  There are peeps that do, but they are NON-TS and mostly hold transphobic, prejudiced viewpoints against trans women.

Hmm so if somebody who thinks they are TS holds (for example) the opinion that ALL surgery (barring the situations where you're rushed into hospital unconscious) is elective (as I said earlier you can refuse surgery for cancer, it just often has severe consequences) then they must not be a 'true TS'?   There are plenty of ways that people could define elective that are not bigoted towards TS people.

Severe consequences.  ~laugh~  what could be more severe than living a life in the wrong body?  If peeps cannot grasp what I just said, they will not understand me, so my efforts in trying to make myseff understood are going to be fruitless.  This is what I meant by "true TS".  I didn't invent it by the way.  It's a very recognizable term among therapists and specialists in GID.  Having GID doesn't make anyone TS, it only makes them "gender dysphoric",  Having the symptoms & meeting the criteria for the diagnosis does.  GRS is only approved for severe cases of GID. There are peeps like
OJ who got away with murder.  I'm sure there are some peeps that get away with GRS without meeting the diagnosis too. 

Quote from: Butterfly on October 10, 2007, 04:49:45 AM
Severe consequences.  ~laugh~  what could be more severe than living a life in the wrong body?  If peeps cannot grasp what I just said, they will not understand me, so my efforts in trying to make myseff understood are going to be fruitless.  This is what I meant by "true TS".  I didn't invent it by the way.  It's a very recognizable term among therapists and specialists in GID.  Having GID doesn't make anyone TS, it only makes them "gender dysphoric",  Having the symptoms & meeting the criteria for the diagnosis does.  GRS is only approved for severe cases of GID. There are peeps like
OJ who got away with murder.  I'm sure there are some peeps that get away with GRS without meeting the diagnosis too. 

So having GID doesn't make one TS but GRS is approved in terms of the severity of somebodies GID?  Great news then, because I want SRS because of my severe GID but from what I've read in this thread I'll be damned if I ever want to be labelled as a "true TS"

I called this corrective surgery in an earlier post as necessary to remove a deformity.  That is my own opinion, maybe not politically correct, but it is my way of explaining how I feel about it

Andra calls it XY chromosomes, where's the physical deformity there?  Isn't the real deformity having XY chromosomes and a female mind?

OK, either way for me it was torture to just continue living the way I was and coming out or not coming out was not an option. Three years later I got SRS. I live in Canada and there are two provinces with health insurance that will pay for the surgery as they do not consider it a cosmetic procedure.  It is considered to be necessary surgery to alleviate. GID.

Cindy   

   Hi RedJack,

   I think some of the more practical issues you face would be finding a qualified surgeon who would perform the surgery.  As I said, there are some risks.  So, finding a surgeon is probably your largest problem just to begin with.  As I stated earlier, there are many possible risks.  You would not want to try anything that is not 100% USDA approved.
   Also, I think I read where it would cost about $17,000 in the US and maybe $8,000 in some foreign countries.

   Another thing that you are not hearing here is that even if you have a vagina, it is not care free.  A whole lot of work goes into keeping it healthy and from closing up on you (from what I've read).
   It's not like a tattoo that you can just get it then forget it.  Even if you have to pay attention to piercings, it's not the same thing.

Just something to think about.


Rebis

I'll ask that the thread be left open a bit more so I can reply when I'm in a more intelligent state of mind, I just finished a 12 hour shift at a new job, and have been up for nearly 24, so forming an intelligent statement is currently beyond my ability, though there are a few things I'd like to reply to. After some sleep I'll reply.

It's simple.

Presuming you're sane.

Get The Legislation OFF MY Body.

As soon as you allow and agree with others establishing rules over an individual's own body, where it doesn't hurt or affect anyone else, you set a precedent to allow that to happen.

I don't care whether you agree with it, or disagree with it.
The fact is, if it hurts no one else and you are sane, NO ONE should be able to establish rules over YOUR body.

99% of America will NEVER understand us.
They have, and will continue to try and create legislature to establish what we can and can't do with our own body because they feel that what we are doing is wrong.

And some of you have the AUDACITY to turn around and DO THE EXACT SAME!!!

That defies reason. 
There is a word for it. 
It's called Hypocrisy.

Jessica

It is hilarious to hear people who would've been classed as insane not too many years ago talking about how other people are 'weird'

Quote from: Jessica on October 10, 2007, 09:24:45 AM
Presuming you're sane.

Get The Legislation OFF MY Body.

That IS the problem: determining which motives are sane. Should we let someone who wants to cut off their arm go ahead with it as long as they sign a waiver?

Now I'm not saying that wanting to "streamline" one's genitals is THAT extreme, but still... it's an unusual enough request to warrant a looksee into the motives behind it... or is it?

Yes, I know people are calling anyone who shows restraint here "hypocritical" and unsupportive. But is unquestioning support for ANY desire/need truly in everyone's best interest?

~Kate~

Quote from: Katia on October 09, 2007, 06:34:10 PM

Quote from: Butterfly on October 09, 2007, 05:22:23 PM

Quote from: Jaycie on October 09, 2007, 05:12:23 PM
If you'd really like for me to point out the obvious,  SRS/GRS IS in many cases cutting a healthy body 'to pieces'.

Coming from someone who ISN'T TS, your statement doesn't surprise me at all.  A person who is not TS would need to be born again, have severe GID, live their lives in the wrong body in order to understand that GRS is not what you implied, so I don't blame you for thinking as you do.

i concord.  that statement is very inflammatory.  it's the same garbage we hear from surgeons and ppl that consider grs to be 'elective' or 'cosmetic'.  well put.  if you ain't ts, you don't know & will never know.  btw that applies to ppl that 'believe' they are ts too.  believing you are ts doesnt make you ts., capiche?

Some people equate "body modification" with amputation and disfigurement.  It's not.  Getting your ears pierced is body modification.  Breast enhancement is body modification.  Fixing a cleft lip is body modification.

GRS is body modification, but it is not "cutting a healthy body to pieces."  It is changing from normal male appearance to normal female appearance.  The kind of attitude implied by "cutting a healthy body to pieces" is that males are the norm and females are incomplete or deficient.  No way!

Quotedetermining which motives are sane

I could not disagree more.

It is not up to ANYONE to determine the motivations or actions.
Who would decide that? Society?

Let me give you an example.
Nose Rings.
Personally, I think they're horrible, they look bad, they damage good tissue, etc.
I bet if I were to take a poll of all people over 18 (voting age) across all of America on what percentage of people would get nose rings that the people who would not get a nose rings would far outweigh the people who would.

So, lets say 10% of people would get them, 90% would not.

Therefore, one must conclude that nose rings are outside what is "Normal"
Therefore, obviously that behavior (getting a nose ring) is deviant from the social norm.
We should therefore conclude that people should not be able to get them because:
1. Most people would not get them.
2. It damages healthy tissue.
3. Outside of appearance it serves no function.

Therefore, that behavior, according to the normal, is not really sane.

The issue is not with the behavior.  It's with the individual.

The question is "Is this person sane, ie. Does he or she have the Right to make decisions regarding his or her own life?"

Determine whether the INDIVIDUAL is sane or not.
If the PERSON is sane then they have the RIGHT to make decisions regarding their life and liberty.

If you analyze the behaviors then you suppress the individual's right to do ANYTHING outside of what is 'socially acceptable.'

Quote from: Kate on October 10, 2007, 09:46:09 AM

Quote from: Jessica on October 10, 2007, 09:24:45 AM
Presuming you're sane.

Get The Legislation OFF MY Body.

That IS the problem: determining which motives are sane. Should we let someone who wants to cut off their arm go ahead with it as long as they sign a waiver?

Now I'm not saying that wanting to "streamline" one's genitals is THAT extreme, but still... it's an unusual enough request to warrant a looksee into the motives behind it... or is it?

Yes, I know people are calling anyone who shows restraint here "hypocritical" and unsupportive. But is unquestioning support for ANY desire/need truly in everyone's best interest?

~Kate~

    You're right about looking into the motives.  Not only for us but for Redjack.  I think he described his motives fairly well, but didn't seem to get too much below the surface in terms of how he feels.  I guess the feminine in me needs some emotional connection beyond "it would look cool".
    I'm on the side of restraint.  I just don't think it's my business to judge someone for doing something that wouldn't appeal to me.  There are many cultures and there are many ways of living one's life.  I really do believe that the best support we can give in this case is the information that was requested.  I believe that once the details are available to redjack that he will make a decision which is wisest in his own judgment.

   By the way, I went to that webpage that was made available concerning the man in the UK who did all of his own genital modification and I nearly vomited part of the way down into the interview.
   I understand that this kind of thing is a subculture I don't understand, but I hope to god I never see or hear of such a thing again.


Rebis

Quote from: Butterfly on October 10, 2007, 04:49:45 AM
Severe consequences.  ~laugh~  what could be more severe than living a life in the wrong body?  If peeps cannot grasp what I just said, they will not understand me, so my efforts in trying to make myseff understood are going to be fruitless.  This is what I meant by "true TS".  I didn't invent it by the way.  It's a very recognizable term among therapists and specialists in GID.  Having GID doesn't make anyone TS, it only makes them "gender dysphoric",  Having the symptoms & meeting the criteria for the diagnosis does.  GRS is only approved for severe cases of GID. There are peeps like
OJ who got away with murder.  I'm sure there are some peeps that get away with GRS without meeting the diagnosis too. 

What could be more severe then living a life in the wrong body?  Oh I dunno... living a life in a body that is wasting away to cancer?  I'd say that is also fairly severe. 

I don't understand your POV that only "True TS" 'deserve' SRS.  I would think anyone who gets clearance from their respective doctors/therapists and desires the surgery (more on this down a bit) should be entitled to pay their dime and accomplish their goals.

Quote
The MOTIVATION for this is very important. You need to search your soul before even considering 'body modification' of this magnitude. I really can't comprehend how a man would even be interested in genital modification.
As someone mentioned earlier, about going from man to transman - it's an entirely different thing.
I do love and accept my genitals as part of me, but I would never have CHOSEN to be a man with female or otherwise ambiguous genitalia. The motivation for a man to have any type of SRS completely escapes me.
Have you considered that you may have gender issues? That you may in fact be androgyne?

Nero has a good point... (though I won't take guesses to your gender identity).. It is important to really examine why you'd want to make this drastic a change.  TS's have to go through what is called "Real life test" in which they live as their chosen gender for at least a full year.  The reason this restriction is in place is to hopefully help limit the situation where the surgery is completed only to be discovered later the individual made a mistake.  Obviously if you have no GID there isn't anything to "test" during "real life test" but none the less I'd suggest waiting at <i>least</i> a year before making this big a change.  This surgery is for all intents and purposes <b> irreversable</b>.

QuoteAnother thing that you are not hearing here is that even if you have a vagina, it is not care free.  A whole lot of work goes into keeping it healthy and from closing up on you (from what I've read).
   It's not like a tattoo that you can just get it then forget it.  Even if you have to pay attention to piercings, it's not the same thing.

Rebis also has a good point that you're talking about a <b> lifetime</b> of aftercare.  Just again, not a decision to be made lightly.


And I think everyone here should watch a few episodes of <b> Taboo </b> on the National Geographic Channel ;)

(eddited to fix coding error)

Quote from: Dennis on October 10, 2007, 12:27:01 AM
There is also some interesting discussion here. Gonna give it till morning and see what happens to it.

Dennis

With all due respect Dennis, although some discussion points may be interesting, they become insignificant when followed by a trail of bickering. One post provokes another,  then there's the stepping on toes, and somewhere along the line as the pissing-contest continues not a soul will give an actual damn anymore about the 'few interesting points' made.

You can't hold a debate or discussion over a topic when there isn't an objective foundation for argumentation. Then there is only subjectivity/opinion, and side-topics that sometimes do not even qualify as such are emphasised.

As Wing Walker pointed out nicely; I have yet to see the intelectual opinion of a qualified physician, and likewise the opinion as well as sharing of information through experience by an individual who actually practices the initial topic. (However, forgive me if I missed the last one since I'm not that thrilled anymore to read each post in depth: watching wrestling on the tele takes less time.)

That said, I don't care who slaughters who; if that's the thrillpill some people like to pop then that's their business. It's just a pity it has to be in public.

Quote from: Dennis on October 09, 2007, 05:54:31 PM
Back to the original topic, I would say the risk would be infertility. Testes don't function well in higher temperatures.
Dennis

Nods, "This was an expected short coming, and not considered an issue, an obvious preplanning solution would be to bank a sample just in case. My greater worry is will there be any other problems than that from exposing the testes to a body temperature environment over the long term."

Quote from: Rebis on October 09, 2007, 07:06:21 PM
   I understand that RedJack (if that's his real name - [/snicker]) is male. However, I also believe that the most likely way to dissuade him in the event that he really is way of track, is to help inform him.

   I did see pictures of an MtF who had their testes implanted up into the lower abdomen, however, from my experience (don't ask) that is a good way to feel like you've been kicked there when, or if, you ever fool around with another person again.  The last place you would ever want your testes is in your abdomen or any other place where they may receive unwelcome and unexpected pressure.  In my opinion.

  Other reasons in my view that you may not want to have such severe body mod performed on your genitals is that there is the possibility that you'll lose sexual sensation and the possibility that if the wrong thing is nicked, and I'm talking about things we haven't discussed like the urethra, you could end up with lifelong discomfort or even pain.
  In the case of having a vagina installed, there is also the possibility of having a nick of some kind that allows feces to leak into your body.
  I am not making this up.  If I'm wrong, then someone should correct me, however, these are facts that I've read about during all of my personal research.

  There is also the reversibility issue where you may decide that you want to have children with someone.  I guess if your testes are working, you can always have sperm taken in a lab, but how are you going to explain this to your partner?  Which kind of leads up to the notion of how are you going to begin a relationship with someone?  Full disclosure up front, or spring it as a surprise?
  Also, is this the way you really want to live?  It may sound cutting edge, but what kind of people do you hang out with?  Are they going to know?  At some time, if you ever have a physical relationship, it's probably going to get out.  I guess there's the possibility that you'll just tell everyone who'll listen, but maybe you should go around and pretend that you are doing that when you see the people you associate with.

  As for me, whatever you want is your own business and is fine with me. I just feel that this thread has been missing the point that the 'can it be done' question applies to your self esteem and mental health as much as it applies to the physical aspect.

Rebis

Male yes, but no, Red Jack is not my name, but probably the oldest name I've gone by online, consider it a bit of protection, a bit of anonymity to hide behind while I question, think and consider what's going through my mind, a way to wash my hands of it should I not only decide not to do this in the future, but like to distance m'self from the fact that I even thought it.

That was my initial thought on implanting the testes there, it didn't seem like the most practical of placements.

This is the kind of information I was looking for, thanks. Basically its easy to go 'gee, that looks interesting, why don't I?' Its a lot harder to find out the upside and downside of doing it, and its definitely something that requires serious thought, in many ways on par with what members of this forum are going through, which is another reason to bring it here.

Full disclosure is a definite, and as you can see I answered the reproductive question. As to the rest here, definitely food for thought, thank you.

Quote from: Nero on October 10, 2007, 04:15:21 AM
The MOTIVATION for this is very important. You need to search your soul before even considering 'body modification' of this magnitude. I really can't comprehend how a man would even be interested in genital modification.
As someone mentioned earlier, about going from man to transman - it's an entirely different thing.
I do love and accept my genitals as part of me, but I would never have CHOSEN to be a man with female or otherwise ambiguous genitalia. The motivation for a man to have any type of SRS completely escapes me.
Have you considered that you may have gender issues? That you may in fact be androgyne?

While the motivation is very important, I guess you could say that I look at it like a construction project, can I build, is it possible to make a serious foundation, before considering whether you should, because if its impossible, there's no point... at least in my opinion.
Chuckles, "I may very well be androgyne, I've never given that much thought, but do know that I'm fairly malleable about what I am, remaining what I am versus changing it like we've discussed here is very much a matter of why not more than anything else, hence the question that started this thread."

Quote from: Rebis on October 10, 2007, 07:53:50 AM
   Hi RedJack,

   I think some of the more practical issues you face would be finding a qualified surgeon who would perform the surgery.  As I said, there are some risks.  So, finding a surgeon is probably your largest problem just to begin with.  As I stated earlier, there are many possible risks.  You would not want to try anything that is not 100% USDA approved.
   Also, I think I read where it would cost about $17,000 in the US and maybe $8,000 in some foreign countries.

   Another thing that you are not hearing here is that even if you have a vagina, it is not care free.  A whole lot of work goes into keeping it healthy and from closing up on you (from what I've read).
   It's not like a tattoo that you can just get it then forget it.  Even if you have to pay attention to piercings, it's not the same thing.

Just something to think about.


Rebis

Smiles, "Yes, price was anticipated to be an issue, though I hadn't realized just how high it is. Also I wasn't aware of the care issues involved, thank you."

At this point, we've likely exhausted this topic, at this point its unlikely I'll learn more than I have now (and not just about my question, its been fascinating getting a peek into people's heads here, its even tweaked one of the loose ends in my religious beliefs), so I leave it up to the moderators whether or not this thread remains open.

Thank you all for everything, and once things get settled down with the new job, I'll be exploring the forum, I suspect my motivations and desires will become clear as I learn more. I will leave you all with food for another thread (may have been covered by now), anyone remember when Dolly was cloned? There was an uproar about the concept of cloning people to create a brain dead organ donor. As they would be you physically, organ rejection is obviously minimized if not eliminated, so here's a thought, if that was possible, would it be a good solution for gender reassignment surgery? Obviously ifn we reached the point where we could clone a human being and grow them to an adult stage in a short amount of time, reassigning their gender should be quite simple, so this would represent the ability to have gender reassignment surgery with no rejection and full function, but should it be done?

Thank you all, while I may be quite, I expect I'll be visiting quite a bit from now on.

Quote from: Wing Walker on October 09, 2007, 11:43:57 PM

QuotePoor Redjack is never going to have his questions answered. 

And which one of us is qualified to give poor Redjack the answers that he (I presume that at least his presentation is male, thus the third-person male pronoun) seeks?

Will the person who has sufficient medical education, experience, licensure, and board or Royal College acceptance please stand up and volunteer to sign-off on Redjack's papers?

Heh. Well, I work for the vet and while standing around assuring that dogs who are being neutered stay in that happy land between awake and dead I have no doubt observed dozens more genital surgeries than your GP. I can't sign off on anything, but I can answer, sort of. Or extrapolate answers, rather.

RedJack, when you were a foetus, your testicles were positioned up in your abdomen. They descended to the scrotum through a structure called the inguinal canal, probably sometime shortly before you were born. This canal is still there, a bundle of stuff (the 'spermatic cord') goes along it. I suspect it would be a snap to widen the distal end of the inguinal canal, stuff your nuts back up there, and close it off so they couldn't drop down again. This actually would be reversable, though they'd have to reconstruct a scrotum for you if you had the original one taken off.

The chances of you finding a surgeon willing to do this just 'cause you think you'd like the look of it are probably about the same as the chances of your testicles retracting into the canal spontaneously. Not likely at all.

When the testicles don't descend fully through said canal, it's called a 'cryptorchid' condition or 'cryptorchidism' which sounds pretty and means 'hidden testicle' in Greek. Using that term as a start for your research might help.

I would assume that artificially creating a cryptorchid condition in you surgically would expose you to the same risks as people who are born that way and never get it corrected. You would lose fertility because the testicles would be too warm all the time for good sperm production. You would increase your risk of testicular cancer by somewhere between four and forty times. You'd be more likely to suffer from inguinal hernias, which is where a bit of your small intestine slips down the inguinal canal to your groin. This is painful and can be life-threatening because said bit of intestine can twist around itself and block your guts and cut off it's own blood supply. You'd also be more likely to suffer testicular torsion, which would be the testicle turning around in the canal, possibly cutting off it's own blood supply and resulting in your testicle turning into a life-threatening lump of dead tissue in your abdomen.

Re: Gender change as a body mod

::)

Gender cant be changed but physical sex can.  But GRS isnt a body mod.  it is like breathing air, pumping blood.  In other words, imperative for transsexuals.

Ok I took a few days to think about this topic and the purposes of this web site before I decided to make a statement on this topic. Here's my opinion and the policy of this web site.

Gender reassignment surgery, for any purpose other than as treatment for Gender Dysphoria, or when used to voluntarily correct intersex conditions is not a valid topic for discussion on this forum.

The only thing I can suggest for those interested in the subject is to take it to a extreme body modification forum. That doesn't mean you can't participate here, however keep in mind that this is a transgender support forum, and as such is not generally sexually oriented.

As such this topic is now locked.