Susan's Place Transgender Resources

Quote from: Melissa on October 22, 2006, 01:17:45 PM

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 22, 2006, 02:52:00 AM
I have no enemies.... never cared for them.  ;)

What about the entire mormon church? ;)

Melissa

Hey, if they hate me, that's their problem, not mine. ;)

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 24, 2006, 08:27:38 AM

Quote from: Melissa on October 22, 2006, 01:17:45 PM

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 22, 2006, 02:52:00 AM
I have no enemies.... never cared for them.  ;)

What about the entire mormon church? ;)

Melissa

Hey, if they hate me, that's their problem, not mine. ;)

Cindi

True, but my point was you must be a big success if you have an entire religion that hates you. ;)

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on October 24, 2006, 10:28:40 AM

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 24, 2006, 08:27:38 AM

Quote from: Melissa on October 22, 2006, 01:17:45 PM

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 22, 2006, 02:52:00 AM
I have no enemies.... never cared for them.  ;)

What about the entire mormon church? ;)

Melissa

Hey, if they hate me, that's their problem, not mine. ;)















Cindi

True, but my point was you must be a big success if you have an entire religion that hates you. ;)

Melissa

                       I had a completely different experience with Mormans.  I lived in a small Utah town for 7 years and never felt or saw any hate from Mormans toward me or anyone else.  My first prescription for HRT was from a small town Morman doctor that offered it without even being asked by me. He said "I can't imagine how hard this has been for you".


beth

Quote from: beth on October 24, 2006, 11:09:38 AM
I had a completely different experience with Mormans.  I lived in a small Utah town for 7 years and never felt or saw any hate from Mormans toward me or anyone else.  My first prescription for HRT was from a small town Morman doctor that offered it without even being asked by me. He said "I can't imagine how hard this has been for you".

beth

That's definitely good to hear.  Cindi transitioned in the 80's and times were different then.  I also lived in utah from when I was 2 to until I was 15 (1980-1992).  I'm sure I was living there when Cindi was.  Maybe you were living there too.

Melissa

Quote from: Melissa on October 24, 2006, 10:28:40 AM
True, but my point was you must be a big success if you have an entire religion that hates you. ;)
Melissa

Oh my, that is funny Melissa.  I can't quit laughing. 

While I did have bitterness and great sadness for some time after my excommunication, that time has long passed.  I came to realize that they fought so hard becase they loved me so much. It was the only way they knew how to deal with the problem.  It was totally inept, but it was all they could do at the time. ;)  I've heard that the church has changed its position slightly towards GLBT folk.  But I haven't checked in with them to see just what that might be.

I heard my husband say to some guy once who was preaching to him:  "You know, you must be a very religious person."  "Why yes, how can you tell?"  "Because you are telling me how I should live MY life."  ;)

I've told it before, but it is buried in the ether somewhere....  Hubby tells people he's a Bochalist.  When someone asks him what that means he responds with: "I believe in bochalism."  When people ask about my beliefs, I tell them that I'm a Druid.  When they ask me what I believe in, I say:  "Look up.... and there you go!"  Between the two of us, most folk just assume we are crazy loones!

In all honesty, we are both spiritual people.  We have our sacred beliefs.  But they are our beliefs, so we rarely share them with other people.

Cindi

Cindi,
This year my husband and I left the Mormon church.  I am not a bitter exmormon and still have several friends within the church.   I didn't think much about it until recently, but when I was an active member I once told the bishop about my mother and her transition.  He told me there was no need to discuss this with anyone else.  Later, I told the patriarch the same thing.  He told me that when I got to Heaven, my MOTHER would be waiting on me.  SHE would be healed from her physical and mental pains that she had suffered here on Earth.   Before I left, he told me that I should not share that story with anyone else again, that Heavenly Father had taken care of it and there was no need to discuss it further.  At the time I was very emotional!  I've always been afraid of what the eternal consequences of suicide are and I now believe that he (the patriarch) played on my fear.  I think the church wants such a perfect and clean appearance that they do whatever to keep the dirty laundry silent.  I know that is a huge generalization, and I'm sorry if that offends anyone.  This is just my experience and the opinion I have formed from that.
Ginger

My mother went to talk to her bishop about "my" problem in her new ward (that's like a parish or congregation for the Mormon illiterate).  He told her that it did not reflect on her and that she shouldn't worry about it.  But he did admonish her that it would be their "little secret".

So now that I've moved this topic to its own little discussion on Mormon spirituality, I'd like to open it for questions.  Please ask what you will and I will answer in my most thoughtful manner.  Many people have many unanswered questions about the Mormons.  And I promise to be nice.

Cindi

Cindi;

  I have so many questions but I won't ask because I don't want to be a nuisence. ( and because of the possible rule violations or offending some ) The Mormons where I live won't come near those who enjoy deeper spiritual conversations that tear up their doctrine. If you make the mistake of coming on too strong they avoid you like the plague.
  I guess I'l limit my questions to these:
  1.  Are non Mormon Christians and those who believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost among those listed as going to hell with us dirty transgender folk?
  2.  If you were willing to be a second or third wife to one of their male members would they reconsider excommunicating you and cover it up for the sake of your family?
  I hope these don't sound too dumb but I have reasons for asking that I won't go into since Susan's is not a place for some of the discussions I enjoy going into.
  Any help would surely be cherished.

  Tiffany

Okay, as we start this venture, let me just repeat for the record that I am no longer associated with the Mormon church.  They ah.. ummm... invited me to leave.  I will provide answers as best as I can according to what I know of the LDS doctrine.  Let me start by saying that members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints consider themselves to be Christians. The nickname "Mormon" came from one of their religious texts and was coined by non members in the early history of the church.

1)  A) In the Mormon temples, church members perform ordinances for the dead. These do include baptism by immersion to receive the holy ghost. This is one of the reasons that Mormons are very interested in geneology.  Although these ordinances are performed for the dead, they must be accepted by the person for which they are performed. So, even after you are dead, you can choose to receive the LDS faith.

     B) LDS (Latter Day Saint) people do not believe in "hell".  They believe that each person will receive a certain status based on their performance while on earth.  Eternal progression is a fundamental belief.  It's sort of like someone who has gone to college and someone who has not.  Who will get the better jobs?  Now the fellow that didn't go to college can do it, but he'll just be that much farther behind.  So if you were a jerk, you'll most likely always be a jerk watching everyone pass you by for eternity.

2) A) Plural marraige was discontinued in 1898 to abide by the laws of the USA.  A man can, however, be sealed (married) to more than one woman in heaven.  So if a man's wife dies, he may take another wife and be sealed to her in the temple. Now both women are married to him in God's eyes.  They will all live together in the after life.
 
    B) Excommunication typically will not result in an anullment of the sealing.  It is uncommonly rare to be able to get permission to do this.  It's like calling the Pope and inviting him to dinner. He probably won't come if you don't know him really well.  By the way FWIW, they got one in my case.
 
    C) When it comes to records, they are painfully accurate in such things. My family tree is littered with all kinds of "problems" as is everyone else's.  No coverups are allowed. NONE  My mother's biological father left her and her sister when she was very young.  The man that married her mothered was always her daddy.  He was my "grandpa".  In my eyes he was and always will be MY "grandpa".  But, in the church records he is listed only as my grandmother's second husband.  The man that ran off and was never seen again is my listed as my grandfather on my mother's line.  My mother tried in vain for years to get "MY" grandpa even mentioned in the records as her father.

Okay... keep them coming. 

Cindi will answer any questions concerning the Mormon church.

Cindi

QuoteThe Mormons where I live won't come near those who enjoy deeper spiritual conversations that tear up their doctrine. If you make the mistake of coming on too strong they avoid you like the plague.

I think this would apply to any group, including golfers, left handed people and movie goers.




I don't have the experience Cindi has but I can add the following,

Quote1.  Are non Mormon Christians and those who believe in the baptism of the Holy Ghost among those listed as going to hell with us dirty transgender folk?

Mormans believe their church is the true church (what religious group doesn't?) but they respect others beliefs and do not preach hate toward any church or group.

beth

Thank you both for your answers. It's hard to get insight here where I live. The Mormons do seem rather secretive at times. Also, it appears I may have gotten some wrong information from others outside their church.
Once again; thank you.

Tiffany

Tiffany,

The Mormon church had a very tough time in the early years. Every where they moved they were persecuted.  I don't believe it was for their beliefs.  I believe it was because they were a sizeable political force.  They set up in New York, Ohio, and Missouri.  They were driven out of each state.  In Missouri, the governer of the state issued an extermination order making it legal to shoot and kill Mormons. The first Mormon leader was executed by a mob.  They were forced from their homes in the dead of winter to cross the Missouri river and try to survive from freezing that winter in tents and whatever else they could scrounge together.  The great Missouri river froze that year it was so cold.

They walked across America and set up their new cities next to a great salt lake where the famous trapper and scout Jim Bridger said that he'd give a thousand dollars for the first bushel of corn grown there.  The land was considered so barren and inhospitible that it seemed to be the perfect place where they would be left alone.  While they were trecking accross our great land,  the president of the United States sent a message asking for them to send men to help in the American/Mexican war.  Brigham Young selected 500 men to send to fight for the country that had ordered them murdered.  They left their families en route, to walk across the great plains and rocky mountains alone without them. Their fathers and husbands would not meet up with them for years as the small Mormon army wound its way down to Mexico, out to California, and back to Utah.

Once they had established their new home next to the lake of salt, the USA sent out a military force to coerce the new settlement to obey the law (this was over the plural marraige thing). The troops came in and set up a military base.

The Church is very social in Utah.  If you are a member, all of your closest friends are in the Church. All of your spare time is available to do church work.  And Mormon groups still remember the history of their forefathers. I had a great great grandmother that walked with her father and mother pulling a handcart with their meager belongings.  She walked those thousands of miles barefoot to protect her shoes so she could wear them to church when she arrived in Zion. She lost her shoes just a few days before entering the Salt Lake Valley. Many in their party died along the way.

The song my great great grandmother sang as she walked was Come, Come, ye Saints. I learned to sing as a child and it still brings tears to my eyes even now as I know the hardships they endured walking to Utah.

Come, come, ye Saints, no toil nor labor fear;
But with joy wend your way.
Though hard to you this journey may appear,
Grace shall be as your day.
'Tis better far for us to strive
Our useless cares from us to drive;
Do this, and joy your hearts will swell--
All is well! All is well!

Why should we mourn or think our lot is hard?
'Tis not so; all is right.
Why should we think to earn a great reward
If we now shun the fight?
Gird up your loins; fresh courage take.
Our God will never us forsake;
And soon we'll have this tale to tell-
All is well! All is well!

We'll find the place which God for us prepared,
Far away in the West,
Where none shall come to hurt or make afraid;
There the Saints will be blessed.
We'll make the air with music ring,
Shout praises to our God and King;
Above the rest these words we'll tell--
All is well! All is well!

And should we die before our journey's through,
Happy day! All is well!
We then are free from toil and sorrow, too,
With the just we shall dwell!
But if our lives are spared again
To see the Saints their rest obtain,
Oh, how we'll make this chorus swell--
All is well! All is well!

It is little wonder that they seem to keep together. My grandmother told me these stories of her grandmother. Those families, like mine, still live in tact, with their history, in Utah.  Although I am no longer a member, I still hold great pride for my heritage.

Cindi

Cindi;

  Thank you so much for that post!
  You surely have a way to show things not seen by those outside the Mormon faith. It's kind of a shame that there is that secrecy as some of these things could shed some light on this group to some of us that have had pre-conceived notions about them.
  I hope one day to share a hope in spiritual things for transgenders that you are able to relate about the Mormons.
  I do hope that if my wording sounds judgemental or hateful in the things that I have posted you will forgive me.
  It almost in a sense seems as though you have traveled from one hated lifestyle to another by going from Mormon to outing yourself as trans.
  I too love a country that does not believe as I do and people that hate me for my spiritual views and being transgender.
  Thank You so much. That was beautiful.

  Tiffany

That is something that I never learned in any of history courses. I am deeply moved by your telling of it, Cindi.

Wow and there I was thinking that Cindi and I were the only ex-Mormons here...  Silly me.

Steph

Raises my hand here too...

Served a 2 year mission to Philippines.

Do Mormons accept TGs? No. Ones that are still in the church either have it hidden or are being monitored to change by the hierarchy.

Can a TG ever attain the highest glory according to their doctrine? No. Temple marraige and sealed. Not possible unless hidden, or lie about things.

I normally havent responded to the posts. I don't hate mormons. I just dont believe in what they believe in. I do believe they do a lot of good and dont promote crime, drugs, and basic living. They do have sexuality I believe entirely wrong. And have created a intricate form of rituals and symbols that are false and absurd even.

I dont have a religion now, just a philosophy of living of survival, mixed with some psychological techniques and theories. I also have a great deal of admiration for some eastern religions.

Thank god, I didnt marry while I was in it, lol. (pun intended)

Ken/Kendra
75F25M
Androgyne

If I remember, the belief is in the 3 degrees of glory. Celestial, Terestial, and Telestial. Where there is certain criteria for each level. Celestial (the greatest) is for those in temple married and babtized, that will live with their partner and become gods themselves to another world. Also I remember there is something called Outer Darkness or something like that where Lucifer will dwell with those outcasted forever and denying Jesus, or something like that.

Quote from: Tiffany2 on October 24, 2006, 04:59:23 PM
Cindi;

  Thank you so much for that post!
  You surely have a way to show things not seen by those outside the Mormon faith. It's kind of a shame that there is that secrecy as some of these things could shed some light on this group to some of us that have had pre-conceived notions about them.

It is the same thing for any other group in history.  Someone who is different is to be feared or marked odd. Do we not feel similar feelings towards the Menonites?

Quote
  I hope one day to share a hope in spiritual things for transgenders that you are able to relate about the Mormons.
  I do hope that if my wording sounds judgemental or hateful in the things that I have posted you will forgive me.

No, I take absolutely no offense.  If we can learn about religions and understand them, we are all better people.

Quote
  It almost in a sense seems as though you have traveled from one hated lifestyle to another by going from Mormon to outing yourself as trans.
  I too love a country that does not believe as I do and people that hate me for my spiritual views and being transgender.
  Thank You so much. That was beautiful.
Tiffany

As my forefathers suffered for what they felt was truth, so do I.  Only the circumstances are different... and I did not endure half of what they went through. I've had it easy by comparison. I got over the hurt long ago. 

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

With so many of us gathered here, perhaps we could have a priesthood meeting!  But seriously, what gives?  How did so many of us congregate here?  We are not representative of the percentages... surely.

Quote from: Kendra on October 24, 2006, 05:45:00 PM
Can a TG ever attain the highest glory according to their doctrine? No. Temple marraige and sealed. Not possible unless hidden, or lie about things.

There is one scriptural reference that I used to show them that this was not the case. It says if you get sealed, you've made it and nothing short of murder will cancel it.  They didn't like my interpretation although that's exactly what it says.  I'll not get into it more than that here because it would bore most people to tears.

Quote
If I remember, the belief is in the 3 degrees of glory. Celestial, Terestial, and Telestial. Where there is certain criteria for each level. Celestial (the greatest) is for those in temple married and babtized, that will live with their partner and become gods themselves to another world. Also I remember there is something called Outer Darkness or something like that where Lucifer will dwell with those outcasted forever and denying Jesus, or something like that.

Yes within each of these houses are varying degrees of glory; to each what he has earned.  To those in the highest levels, they will eventually become gods.  Those who have denied Christ after receiving him, will spend eternity in outer darkness. This is the only sin that will send you to this place. It is the worst imaginable.  Those who recieve the priesthood and then go through transition are classified in the son of perdition category and will go to outer darkness.  That would be you and me Kendra.  It sorta makes your day doesn't it love?

The church does not spend much time discussing the outer darkness place.  They focus more on the positive aspects in their meetings and teachings.... for the most part.

Posted on: October 24, 2006, 09:45:25 PM

---

Okay... .let's get back to the task at hand.  I will calm myself and try to answer with more dignity.  If you've got them, let me know.  I will answer all questions about the Mormon church.

Cindi

Cindi,
Tell me if I've got this right or not, a man in the celestial kingdom must have multiple wives in order to become a God?  Maybe that was back in Joseph Smith's day, I'm not sure. 

Last week I had a conversation w/ a friend of mine who was born and raised in the church and will never depart.  She asked me what our disbeliefs were.  I told her first and formost, I don't believe that we (men) can become Gods.  She told me it all makes perfect sense....puppies grow up to be dogs, we are children of God and we will become a God.  To which I said "so there is more than one God?" she said "exactly".  I have a major issue with that.  There are times that I don't even feel worthy of Heaven.

Have you ever read The Work and the Glory series?  They are awesome!  They tell the Joseph Smith story, but they also tell the story of the pioneers and such.  Really increadible stories!!

Ginger

Quote from: gin on October 24, 2006, 08:01:26 PM
Cindi,
Tell me if I've got this right or not, a man in the celestial kingdom must have multiple wives in order to become a God?  Maybe that was back in Joseph Smith's day, I'm not sure. 

In the beginning of the church, many of the men died, went off to war, whatever... Additionally, there were more women converts.  So there were a surplus of women and not enough men to go around.  In that time, men were called upon to take more than one wife.  I do not believe that men are required to have multiple wives to achieve celestial glory (to become a god).

Quote
Last week I had a conversation w/ a friend of mine who was born and raised in the church and will never depart.  She me what our disbeliefs were.  I told her first and formost, I don't believe that we (men) can become Gods.  She told me it all makes perfect sense....puppies grow up to be dogs, we are children of God and we will become a God.  To which I said "so there is more than one God?" she said "exactly".  I have a major issue with that.  There are times that I don't even feel worthy of Heaven.

For our universe (all that we know) there is the single god Ellohim.  He is the literal father of Christ.  They are two separate beings.  Christ is the god of the old testament. He's the one that gave Moses the tablets.  So in some respect there are two gods who are in charge of his children.  God and his son. They are believed to be separate beings which is fairly uncommon.

Quote
Have you ever read The Work and the Glory series?  They are awesome!  They tell the Joseph Smith story, but they also tell the story of the pioneers and such.  Really increadible stories!!

No, I have not.  Sometimes, it can be painful to get back into that sort of thing.  It is also very difficult at times when I visit my family. 

Cindi

Dear Cindi,

I have been at the Mormons since my birth. In the year 1992 I was excommunicated because of transsexualism and might not the enter parish rooms (my former ward). Unless I would dress up as a "man". I was not allowed my children to see either because, her mother, also a Mormon, didn't want it. The bishop (head of the local municipality) forbade the members to talk with me. It was told to me that I could come back to the church again; if I would see that I would be mistaken.
I still would like to say two things:

(A)  The LDS church is even more aggressive than before against GLBT people. Surprising, since Joseph Smith married gay couples in the temple; and dykes and homosexuals were accepted. The tolerant behavior of the LDS changed only in 1952. Perhaps with what the movement of the dykes and homosexual started to form?
TS people can be baptized if they didn't know the LDS but not if they were already in it! Not at particularly MtF-TS, cause they  carried the priesthood of the Mormons.  

(B) Joseph Smith, the founder of the LDS had "married" several women who were married underage or where already married to another man. He died of by a mob but he fired his pistol before. And he went to prison where he died because he had a critical magazine destroyed (he was a mayor of a settlement of the Mormons in Nauvoo at that time).

(C) Mormons have the tendency to replace everything contradicts to her "truth"! And they attack the people, which criticize this church!

WoS

  It truly is a shame but the mainstream church also tends to twist scripture to suit their needs and ignore or attempt to seek a different meaning to the scriptures that go against their belief or doctrine.
  I cannot speak for others but I have found that Christians can be more hateful than the non-Christians. At least the non-Christians have the good grace to just flat tell you they don't believe or don't want to hear it without getting mad. Most Christians in the mainstream get flat hateful though. It's as though that proud judgemental spirit can't stand it when it is overcome by the word of God.
  I'm sorry for rambling. I've just been blessed by those here that still believe in spite of being cast out and blessed by learning from those who may no longer believe, yet have so much to offer.
  Tiffany

I have met many people in my life. They represent the world's major faiths.  I believe that most people are decent caring human beings.  When faced with us, it is outside their realm of experience.  After alll folks, look how hard it is for us to accept ourselves? How long does it take us to come to the decision that it is okay to pursue this path? For some of us, it is decades. So I cut them some slack.

I have found it counterproductive to find things wrong with the church I grew up in.  I could itterate hundreds of things that are wrong with it.  And I can do the same thing with the Catholic church.  But the thing is, people hold their beliefs to be sacred.  They rely on their beliefs to live their own lives, to get through tough times, and to accept death.  To belittle them is only reflecting the hatred that we often receive.  It serves no purpose but to alienate everyone.

The major religions teach love, charity, and forgiveness.  I have no problem living alligned with those fundamentals.  So I do.

I have discussed many issues with my children as they have grown. I challenge their thinking. I pose questions that they can not answer.  Much of what we discuss concerns pollitical thinking and lately, much of it has been about our current war and treatment of aliens and the poor.  They are very loyal members of the LDS faith.  Whenever we get hung up on a particular problem, I always ask them:  "What would Christ do?" 

They are abaondoning their fundamentalist thinking in favor of love, charity, and forgiveness.  They have a unique perspective to share now in their church, faith, and community.

Cindi

Dear Tiffany,

QuoteIt truly is a shame but the mainstream church also tends to twist scripture to suit their needs and ignore or attempt to seek a different meaning to the scriptures that go against their belief or doctrine.

Unfortunately, you are right! But it doesn't concern only Christian churches but all religious orthodox monotheistic religions!
In the orthodox Judaism is lent to Thora so as if women had nothing to say; homosexual are ill and pervert (they wouldn't be real Jews through that) and Israel would be a "theocracy".
It is similar in the Islam and partial also in the Buddhism.

QuoteI cannot speak for others but I have found that Christians can be more hateful than the non-Christians.

Seem it so at least!
But, if I see, such as transsexual people am treated in other countries and other religions, I am not so sure!
Dalia International, the well- known Jewish singer often found letters and e-mails full of hate in her mail, written by orthodox Jews. Bülent Ersoy, a well known and popular Turkish singer, had to wait to after her transsition for 10 years till she was appreciated as a woman. Today transsexual people are beaten, raped and murdered in Islamic countries just like in Christian countries, too. Others commit suicide, like a Jehova Witness who didn't stand the pressure of her family and the sect any more.

QuoteMost Christians in the mainstream get flat hateful though. It's as though that proud judgemental spirit can't stand it when it is overcome by the word of God.

The spirit of "I am better because I am a Christian"; comes, that these churches need, to increase about other.
They don't raise an existing self-confidence for them because by the own rise and the humiliation of other churches or people.
My own sister who lives in Oklahoma is the best example of it.
When she learned in the year 1992 that I wanted to have divided because I was transsexual, she declined every contact to me. When I wrote to her that I went to a church of the baptists, she sent me a Bible of the "Clup 700" of Pat Robertson. Only if I would accept her faith and would change into a "man" again, she would have been talk with me!
She was in her youth what is called a "wild girl" in Germany. She has 5 children of four different fathers whom she let back except for a child in Germany. A child has a problem with drugs. Another child has lived in a woman relation for many years. And a child had gone to prison because he has killed a homosexual.
By her feelings of guilt, don't be a good mother (so as it expects the society), driven her into the arms of this fundamentalism. They let her feelings of guilt think that she would be better than other people because she is a Christian!

WoS

Let's keep this topic... on topic please.  I am not here to denegrate someone's religion.  I'd like to honestly answer questions about the Mormon Church.  I will do so as objectively as I can.  I am not a member.

Cindi

Cindi;

  Some young men spoke with me from the Mormon church in the next town. They talked a lot about Joseph Smith but never mentioned Jesus.
  I hope this does not sound hateful or such but do they mention Jesus or preach Jesus? Or do they esteem Joseph Smith above him?
  I can understand why most churches tend to disagree with transsexuals but this is something else I wondered which I never had time to ask.
  Also; if a male-to-female transsexual married a female-to-male transsexual or a straaight person of the opposite sex would they excommunicate them if they found out since such marriages would be scripturally sound.
  Since I am not out I can't even ask these things to local preachers.
  I hope you can be of assistance.
 
  Tiffany

Quote from: Tiffany2 on October 31, 2006, 01:36:43 AM
Cindi;

  Some young men spoke with me from the Mormon church in the next town. They talked a lot about Joseph Smith but never mentioned Jesus.
  I hope this does not sound hateful or such but do they mention Jesus or preach Jesus? Or do they esteem Joseph Smith above him?

The story of Joseph Smith is that he is confused about religion, goes to the forest in prayer, and is visited by God and Christ.  That's the short version.  LDS people do not place anyone above God.  Prophets are not revered as holy icons are in other religions.  So you may have remembered the first part of the story or perhaps they didn't get to finish the lesson.

Quote
  I can understand why most churches tend to disagree with transsexuals but this is something else I wondered which I never had time to ask.
  Also; if a male-to-female transsexual married a female-to-male transsexual or a straaight person of the opposite sex would they excommunicate them if they found out since such marriages would be scripturally sound.
  Since I am not out I can't even ask these things to local preachers.

Actually, within the LDS doctrine, it is not scriptually sound.  I was excommunicated because I held the priesthood.  When they thought that I had a surgical procedure (I only actually had my ears pierced), they excommunicated me and stripped me of my priesthood.  Because I let this happen, I am a "son of perdition" and shall live in eternal darkness with Lucifer.  A female can never hold the priesthood.  So an FTM is out of luck.  Now, if neither is excommunicated, get married and then have the surgeries and are not excommunicated.... they might be okay.  The thing is, they will not excommuncate everyone.  I was a very active and visible member, so they tried extra hard with me.

Quote

  I hope you can be of assistance.
 
  Tiffany

I hope that helps.  I'm getting the feeling that you have other questions that deal with Christianity in general.  PM me with them. 

Cindi

Cindi;

  Thank you very much for your answers. You're such a blessing.
  I have a couple of questions but I'l go one at a time.
  First off: Where do the Mormons get the feeling that being transgender or transsexual is a damnable sin? ( No offense but that's the impression I get.)
  Do they get their view from church doctrine?
  Do they get their view from the Bible or the Book Of Mormon?
  If from the Book Of Mormon, which section?
  I still have a book from the visiting elders that evangelized our neighborhood and would like to look it up.
  Thank you so much in advance.

  Tiffany

  PS: I am such an airhead at times! Didn't someone say they don't believe in hell? If so do they just excommunicate and where do those excommunicated end up. I'm sorry but I have to run and don't have time to backtrack through the posts for this right now.
  Thanks again.

Cindi,

Why is it a sin to drink Caffeine and yet they own huge stock in Pepsi??

Why do they believe that Joseph Smith really found some book that has never been seen again?

Thanks ahead for your answers...

Oh and who is Joseph Smith really  before he found the writings.

Peace,
Taylor

Quote from: Tiffany2 on October 31, 2006, 07:05:13 PM
Cindi;
  First off: Where do the Mormons get the feeling that being transgender or transsexual is a damnable sin? ( No offense but that's the impression I get.)

Mormon's believe that we are all literal sons and daughters of God.  Our spirits were born female and male before this earthly life.  When we are born here, our spirits inhabit the new bodies created for us.  Although it is not supported by the doctrine of the church, the natural line of thinking is that a male body will be given to a male soul.

Quote
  Do they get their view from church doctrine?

Yes as I have described above

Quote
  Do they get their view from the Bible or the Book Of Mormon?

It very likely is from the Doctrine and Covenants. There are many references in there which define the doctrine.  The D&C was written by Joseph Smith during his lifetime as questions would come up concerning church doctrine and as he received revelation.  It was his version of a blog.

Quote
I am such an airhead at times! Didn't someone say they don't believe in hell? If so do they just excommunicate and where do those excommunicated end up. I'm sorry but I have to run and don't have time to backtrack through the posts for this right now.
  Thanks again.

Correct, there is no hell in the Mormon faith.  Everyone will receive some degree of glory commensurate with what they have earned.  Only sons of perdition will be cast out to abide eternity with Lucifer.  Most who are excommunicated will not qualify as a son of perdition. For example, if you commit adultry and are excommunicated, you are not placed in this category.  To be a son of perdition, you supposedly have a perfect knowledge of Jesus Christ and you then deny him.


Posted on: October 31, 2006, 10:51:46 PM

---

Quote from: taylor on October 31, 2006, 08:09:04 PM
Cindi,

Why is it a sin to drink Caffeine and yet they own huge stock in Pepsi??

The "Word of Wisdom" in the doctrine and covenants is where this comes from.  In it it says that hot drinks, alcohol, and tobacco are "not for the body".  In its time, hot drinks were coffee and tea. Tobacco meant specifically "chew" at the time. There is also mention of seasons where meat can be ingested. Although it was "given" to Joseph Smith in revelation, the church did not officially accept the "Word of Wisdom" as doctrine until it was voted on by the church membership many years later in a conference at Salt Lake City. 

The "Word of Wisdom" also grew to envelope smoking tobacco and caffinated drinks sometime later.  This came to include soft drinks that contained caffeine.  From my perspective, the spirit of the Word of Wisdom is to not ingest things that are bad for you.... to eat healthy and exercise.

The ban on caffinated soft drinks has been officially removed by church counsel in recent years. It is now okay to drink Diet Coke.  And my children have taken up a new habit. ;)

The Mormon Church has never had stock in any company.  There has been a corporation of the presidency (the top three leaders) who invested funds in the stock market for years. The returns were always reinvested. (The church leaders are given a very modest stipend for living expenses, but their homes and other belongings are typically already owned prior to them being called to their positions). And for some time, it held stock in a prominent soft drink company, food retailers, and others.  This corporation has sold off all stock in corporations during the past few years.

Now... the church has been purchasing land in Missouri for many years.  I don't know how much it owns, but it is a bundle.  When the end time comes, the saints will return there to set up the new Zion.

Quote
Why do they believe that Joseph Smith really found some book that has never been seen again?

According to church history, the "Book of Mormon" inscribed on gold plates, was taken by an angel.  There were 12 witnesses who were allowed to see these plates before they were taken from the earth.  Although some of these witnesses later left the church, they never denied their testimony of actually seeing the plates.

Quote
Oh and who is Joseph Smith really  before he found the writings.

Joseph Smith was a farmboy in rural New York state.  In 1820, at the age of 14, he prayed to God for help in determining which church he should join.  God and Christ appeared to him and told him to join none of them.  He was told that the true church had been lost from the earth and that it would be restored through him in later visions (revelation).

Keep those questions coming.

Cindi

Just a comment;

The proscription against hot drinks, etc., resembles the proscriptions in Jewish and islamic religions against eating certain foods in that, stripped of their religious imperatives, they are ways of staying healthy(ier) by avoiding foods that can be some sort of risk to the body.

Both Judaism and Islamism proscribe pork which, improperly raised/prepared, can introduce tricinomas (sp?) parasites into the body -- best to just make it a taboo.

So, alcohol is bad, so's tobacco, and for good measure let's add coffee 'cause there are those who start to, y'know, freak a little around the edges if they don't get at least four cups a day.

But after a while, the original wisdom can get lost to those who LIKE their dogma and ritual piled on thick.  But that's true of anywhere.  A very few get it -- really GET it, and the vast majority are doing monkey-see-monkey-do.

There, I stuck my oar in the water!  Which way did it turn the boat? ;D

Karen

Dear Cindi,

QuoteLet's keep this topic... on topic please.  I am not here to denegrate someone's religion.  I'd like to honestly answer questions about the Mormon Church.  I will do so as objectively as I can.  I am not a member.

We are on the topic!
Transsexual people are ostracized and excommunicated by churches because not only Mormons concerns this!
We both have a Mormon background and have experienced as this "church" acts. We handle our knowledge about the sect the Mormons differently, this is everything!

Dear Tiffany,

QuoteSome young men spoke with me from the Mormon church in the next town. They talked a lot about Joseph Smith but never mentioned Jesus.

These are one of their tactics of brainwashing to make you a Mormon. Howe more sooner you ignore your old faith, leave the familiar  way, you are sooner ready to go new ways. And this sect also has to offer much for conservative people: Family values are held up (however, hidden from adultery and rapes of children). Strict separation of the gender roles (it is hidden that women are less worth in the LDS in proportion to men). People into crisis situations think that they found in such a grouping help but they real found the experience of enslavement. From a post of a former member of the LDS:

Quote"Excellent.  I own 8 or 10 copies which I give out to "prospects" and did give to Mo-friends but got all but one of those gifts returned. ;-)  I especially like that Dr. Wood wasn't trying to dis the Mos when he started looking, he was LOOKING.  He couldn't believe what he found, but what he found was a good bit of what I "knew" yet had buried under BS to fool myself into staying a member.  His book should be read by everyone, Mo, exMo, never-Mo, American, English, Indain, et.al. the world."

He talk about this book: The Mormon Conspiracy by Charles L. Wood.

Into this the author tells that he had two copies of this book sent to Mormon which they have returned. Also this is part of the thinking of a Mormon: Declining everything which could destroy the faith of its own. Decline everything which criticizes the "only true Church"!

QuoteI hope this does not sound hateful or such but do they mention Jesus or preach Jesus? Or do they esteem Joseph Smith above him?

Your question is not filled with hatred but honest!
Well, Joseph Smith is appreciated like Mohamed with the Muslims. But he isn't higher than Joseph Smith; so often speaking Mormons about him even if it may happen one so. However,they tells many stories at the Mormons about him for it these either are lied or are only half correct. An example:

QuoteMormons claim that Joseph Smith was always accused or sentenced innocently in front of court. But today, it is prove, that he was accused at least rightly once. He had given a murder order to a Mr Rockwell, one of his narrowest intimate friends. He should kill the governor of Illinois then because this put pressure on the Mormons allegedly. Rockwell was caught but could flee. Joseph Smith escape himself the threatening condemnation also by flight. He was protected by his faith supporters (like the Taliban with Osama bin Laden).

QuoteI can understand why most churches tend to disagree with transsexuals but this is something else I wondered which I never had time to ask.

I cannot understand it !!!
A message of the love and the with each other for all people shall the Christianity  be. Without exception! And these churches and sects make these exceptions anyway: Women are excluded by ecclesiastical offices (as in the case of the Mormons), dykes, homosexuals and transsexual sentenced and the faith of other people made ridiculous! Where is Chist there?

QuoteAlso; if a male-to-female transsexual married a female-to-male transsexual or a straaight person of the opposite sex would they excommunicate them if they found out since such marriages would be scripturally sound.

This depends on this whether the church knows this or not? If they knows it, both will be in the position to be baptized, however, being allowed to be never sealed in the temple the Mormons to each other, what is very important to Mormons. Mormons are forced with that to lie over their past.

Again Cindi,

QuoteThe story of Joseph Smith is that he is confused about religion, goes to the forest in prayer, and is visited by God and Christ.  That's the short version.  LDS people do not place anyone above God.  Prophets are not revered as holy icons are in other religions.  So you may have remembered the first part of the story or perhaps they didn't get to finish the lesson.

This is what today's LDS church tells to the people. But it isn't the whole truth. It is the truth that there are four different versions of this "first vision" which told to Joseph Smith. A version means that he had seen only angels and the talk wasn't from God and Jesus Christ yet. Another version only talks about God or Christ. And a version even of a green dressed man. The story to which you refer was extra written for a newspaper publisher (I think it was in the year 1838 or 1842).

QuoteActually, within the LDS doctrine, it is not scriptually sound.  I was excommunicated because I held the priesthood.  When they thought that I had a surgical procedure (I only actually had my ears pierced), they excommunicated me and stripped me of my priesthood.  Because I let this happen, I am a "son of perdition" and shall live in eternal darkness with Lucifer.  A female can never hold the priesthood.

And after the understanding (doctrines) of the Mormons you may be never baptized again unless you would dress up as a man and submit to their norms. To this you see anyway how silly and ignorant this sect is !

WoS

PS: Even there are enough proves, that Joseph Smith NEVER wrote the Book of Mormon or translate the Book of Abraham Just goooooooogle!

Again, I do not wish to denigrate the LDS faith or any other in this thread.  I do not agree with the Church on many topics but I am witholding my personal feelings to answer questions in this thread. I served a mission for the church and was a gospel doctrine instructor for several years.

I wish here only to answer doctrine or historical questions about the LDS faith as "they" see it to the best of my ability.

I believe that these facts stand on their own to validate or condem the organization. This will not offend any abiding member. And it will help those of us here who are curious to understand what they believe.

Cindi

Wos;
  When I said that I can understand why some churches have their views I actually meant that I understand their train of thought from the scriptures they use even though in many areas we may disagree. I do hope that I didn't appear to be just blindly agreeing to them.

Cindi;
  I too try to keep my feelings out of these matters as I would rather learn with an open mind.
  Does this doctrine of women not being able to hold a position of any form of priesthood come from the scriptures, Book of Mormon or church doctrine?
  Also; is the reason for being stripped of your position completely because of being female or partially from being trans?
  I already realize that if I transition I may never go any farther in most churches.  I can honour their views even though I may disagree. The thing is that I know why most of the churches I've attended feel that way and which scriptures they use.
  Thank you again.

  Tiffany

Hello Cindi.

This is a great thread, it brings back many, many memories some good and some not so good.  However, that aside will there ever be, or is there a place for me if I wished to return to the Mormon church.  I often felt that if I returned the only person who would know about me and my past would be god themself.  And surely he would understand.  I've often thought that it wasn't my fault that I was assigned the wrong vessel to carry my soul, and if it wasn't my fault, who's was it.

Steph

Quote from: Tiffany2 on November 01, 2006, 05:22:13 AM
Does this doctrine of women not being able to hold a position of any form of priesthood come from the scriptures, Book of Mormon or church doctrine?

There are several scriptural references in the Bible and the other standard works of the church that refer to the priesthood given to men or sons of Aaron.  Women are not specifically denied the priesthood in scripture.  However, the priesthood is specifically a patriarchal order.

QuoteAlso; is the reason for being stripped of your position completely because of being female or partially from being trans?

The reasons I was excommunicated specifically were:

1) Denying my priesthood.
2) Refusing church counsel from my priesthood leaders.
3) Denying my belief in Christ through items 1 and 2.  For this, I am a "son of perdition" and worthy only to dwell with Lucifer in everlasting darkness.

During the "counsel" I received, I was told that if I were to persist in changing my sex, I would be commiting a sin second only to murder. This has no basis in official church doctrine as far as I have been able to discover.

Publicly available doctrinal references have only one reference to transsexualism and that is in determining the need for a disciplinary council of the church:

"Disciplinary councils may also be convened to consider a member's standing in the Church following serious transgression such as abortion, transsexual operation, attempted murder, rape, forcible sexual abuse, intentionally inflicting serious physical injuries on others, adultery, fornication, homosexual relations, child abuse (sexual or physical), spouse abuse, deliberate abandonment of family responsibilities, robbery, burglary, embezzlement, theft, sale of illegal drugs, fraud, perjury, or false swearing.

.....

Decisions of the council are to be made with inspiration. A council can reach one of four decisions: (1) no action, (2) formal probation, (3) disfellowshipment, or (4) excommunication."

Posted on: November 01, 2006, 08:46:41 AM

---

Quote from: Steph on November 01, 2006, 05:40:13 AM
Hello Cindi.

This is a great thread, it brings back many, many memories some good and some not so good.  However, that aside will there ever be, or is there a place for me if I wished to return to the Mormon church.  I often felt that if I returned the only person who would know about me and my past would be god themself.  And surely he would understand.  I've often thought that it wasn't my fault that I was assigned the wrong vessel to carry my soul, and if it wasn't my fault, who's was it.

Steph

There is no doctrine that supports a decision on this question.  It would be left to the local church authorities.

You may submit yourself as a candidate for baptism.  You will be asked for your birth certificate for the pertinant information.  You will be asked if the information you provide is accurate.  This not only proves who you are but is important for the church records which are used for various ordinances and such.  If your parents were members, their children of record are cross referenced.  Also, there are many cases where marital status is questionable. These issues must be resolved before admission into the church.

You may attend as a non member with no problems.  I know from experience.  They will try to convert you.

Cindi

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on November 01, 2006, 06:52:08 AM

Quote from: Tiffany2 on November 01, 2006, 05:22:13 AM
Does this doctrine of women not being able to hold a position of any form of priesthood come from the scriptures, Book of Mormon or church doctrine?

There are several scriptural references in the Bible and the other standard works of the church that refer to the priesthood given to men or sons of Aaron.  Women are not specifically denied the priesthood in scripture.  However, the priesthood is specifically a patriarchal order.

QuoteAlso; is the reason for being stripped of your position completely because of being female or partially from being trans?

The reasons I was excommunicated specifically were:

1) Denying my priesthood.
2) Refusing church counsel from my priesthood leaders.
3) Denying my belief in Christ through items 1 and 2.  For this, I am a "son of perdition" and worthy only to dwell with Lucifer in everlasting darkness.

During the "counsel" I received, I was told that if I were to persist in changing my sex, I would be commiting a sin second only to murder. This has no basis in official church doctrine as far as I have been able to discover.

Posted on: November 01, 2006, 08:46:41 AM

---

Quote from: Steph on November 01, 2006, 05:40:13 AM
Hello Cindi.

This is a great thread, it brings back many, many memories some good and some not so good.  However, that aside will there ever be, or is there a place for me if I wished to return to the Mormon church.  I often felt that if I returned the only person who would know about me and my past would be god themself.  And surely he would understand.  I've often thought that it wasn't my fault that I was assigned the wrong vessel to carry my soul, and if it wasn't my fault, who's was it.

Steph

There is no doctrine that supports a decision on this question.  It would be left to the local church authorities.

You may submit yourself as a candidate for baptism.  You will be asked for your birth certificate for the pertinant information.  You will be asked if the information you provide is accurate.  This not only proves who you are but is important for the church records which are used for various ordinances and such.  If your parents were members, their children of record are cross referenced.  Also, there are many cases where marital status is important. These issues must be resolved before admission into the church.

You may attend as a non member with no problems.  I know from experience.  They will try to convert you.

Cindi

Interesting.  As you know I'm was baptized in the Mormon church many years ago, using my existing records that show my previous name.

Thanks Cindi.

Steph

G'morning, Cindi;

I found one of my questions semi-answered since last night, specifically:

--If murder is the most egregious sin, what was your 'sin only second to murder'?

So it's not actually prescripted, but somehow a Mormon 'understands' that what you willfully did to God's vessel is an egregious sin.

Second question, not yet answered--

I haven't asked her yet, but it appears my section supervisor holds funde-vangelical beliefs.  She believes that God gave her that position (she said so.)  She is very rigid in her thinking -- Work starts at 7 and she's rarely early by more than 5 minutes or late by 2, and she's out the door at 4:30, and she highly values puntuality in her subordinates, and finds ways to restrain those who are tardy or play hooky during the workday.  She makes notes of events in case she needs them later.  And on and on... Yet, she has a wonderful, sweet disposition.  I'm afraid.  Very afraid.

If she is Mormon, I've already come out to her.  What would a good Mormon do when a subordinate admits to, well, what I admitted to?  If she sought guidance (assuming she is LDS), where would she likely turn?  What would the guidance she receives from the Church hierarchy likely be?

In a way, I'd be relieved to find out she is Mormon, because I have a resource here at Susans to help me strategise and well-inform my behavoural choices.

In advance, thank you for your insight, Cindi, and Steph, and anyone else who can help me separate the pepper from the fly-****

Karen

Quote from: Karen on November 01, 2006, 08:38:29 AM
G'morning, Cindi;

I found one of my questions semi-answered since last night, specifically:

--If murder is the most egregious sin, what was your 'sin only second to murder'?

So it's not actually prescripted, but somehow a Mormon 'understands' that what you willfully did to God's vessel is an egregious sin.

I received this advice from a general authority of the church: "This thing you want to do, this sin, is second only to murder".  He was later excommunicated from the church himself.  I do not believe that his statement was based on church doctrine.  But since I was excommunicated partly for failing to listen to him, that would be a logical conclusion.

QuoteI haven't asked her yet, but it appears my section supervisor holds funde-vangelical beliefs.  She believes that God gave her that position (she said so.)  She is very rigid in her thinking -- Work starts at 7 and she's rarely early by more than 5 minutes or late by 2, and she's out the door at 4:30, and she highly values puntuality in her subordinates, and finds ways to restrain those who are tardy or play hooky during the workday.  She makes notes of events in case she needs them later.  And on and on... Yet, she has a wonderful, sweet disposition. I'm afraid.  Very afraid.
If she is Mormon, I've already come out to her.  What would a good Mormon do when a subordinate admits to, well, what I admitted to?  If she sought guidance (assuming she is LDS), where would she likely turn?  What would the guidance she receives from the Church hierarchy likely be?

Any Christian, firmly believing in the teachings of Christ, would feel compassion for you.  If she were to seek council from her church leader, it might be her relief society president (in the women's organization) or bishop. The official guidance should be in line with doctrine. "Judge not, for ye may be judged." "Let he who is guiltless cast the first stone." "Love the sinner, hate the sin."  And the odds are, this is what she will ultimately think or be told if she is a knowledgeable member.  The sad point is that as with all things, many members are not knowledgeable concerning their own doctrine.  And she may not ask a church authority.  She may only discuss it with a close friend or her mother. So you may be dealing with someone who deals with an issue like this by how she feels.

QuoteIn a way, I'd be relieved to find out she is Mormon, because I have a resource here at Susans to help me strategise and well-inform my behavoural choices.

PM me for advice.  I am attempting to keep this thread free of my own opinions.

Cindi

Cindi;

  Please excuse my ignorance here but I am a little misunderstanding in one thing. I mean no harm.
  If a person commits this crime supposedly second only to murder and joins the church I could see where acceptance and baptism would in a sense make them new and accepted.
  When a person is a member and has SRS and then comes back; wouldn't this be a different thing? I mean; the person was a member, committed the transgression while a member, and then returns.
  In most churches there is forgiveness upon coming to Christ and being baptized. In this case though it would be one coming to Christ, being baptized, and then committing a transgression and coming back to Christ and being re-baptized again.
  I'm a little confused. Is this like the prodigal son that returns after wasting his inheritance?
  Maybe it would help if you were to lay out the plan of belief in each sceneario.
  A sinner coming to the church, accepting Christ and being baptized and then the member that leaves or is excommunicated, returns and is rebaptized and what the differnce would be in their standing.
  Please forgive me but I am trying to figure this out.
  ( When I was a little girl I was blonde. In time the hair left but I guess the roots stayed.)
  Tiffany
 

Tiffany, it isn't very difficult at all to understand.  You are totally at their mercy.  Transsexualism is only mentioned once in all of the available church literature and that is to hold a court hearing as described earlier. There may be special guidance to authorities that is not published to the general membership. Where no guidance is given, the local church authorities will likely make their own determination.

Yes baptism does "wash away the sins".  But there is an implied promise in this ordinance that you will follow through with repentance and restitution.  What that means... is totally up for grabs.  You can see where the church authorities have real problems dealing with this. They just don't know what to do.  They ask up the chain of command until they get a definitive answer.  Or, they will make a decision "based on inspiration".  You may be required to go back living as a male.  Or they may let you in as the real you.  I've heard of stories, and this is gossip mind you, where people have been advised both ways.  And then there is always the probability that the decision can be reversed.

I do find it interesting however that the specific text I quoted above explicitly states  "transsexual operation".  So, if you had not had the operation yet and showed up in drag, it would certainly cause a great disturbance, but there isn't much they could do about it. This is my interpretation of the document.

Cindi

Dear Cindi,

I don't want to harm you nor anybody else, by my postings. Both of us were at the Mormons and both handle differently our experiences. I have studied the Mormons, also the literature of former mormons and scientist who deals with the topic. I see the Mormons very critically, and you presumably  don't be so critical. Both is also all right! But I don't find it okay to forbid me my voice! I also have to say much to this topic like you!
For example this here:

Some still to the witnesses of the Book of Mormon. There was three and eight witnesses at once. The three witnesses, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris parted all three from him and the Mormons and accused Joseph Smith more differently crimes on. Under this adultery and immoral behavior. Particularly Oliver Cowdery, which was a councellor of Joseph Smith did this. He was later replaced by John C. Bennett, which homosexuality was confessed later. All three said later that they saw the Book of Mormon with "the eyes of the faith". Or they never saw it with their natural eyes but believed what Joseph Smith told to them, expressed differently.

The eight witnesses are:

Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer Jun, John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith Sen., Hyrum Smith und Samuel H. Smith.

Everyone was either related to Joseph Smith or close friends to him. Also they said that they saw the "golden plates" with the "eyes of the faith".
Some of them left the LDS church later and followed mormon sects.
Joseph Smith didn't have the gift of the translation for it; the story already proves alone around the "Kinderhook plates":
Some farmers wanted to show Joseph Smith up; and had plates made of brass which decorated her with characters produced of a blacksmith. They buried the plates, and help a mormon to "found" the plates which claimed that Joseph Smith could translate the plates. Joseph Smith agreed, and said later, that these plates would come from a descendant of Ham(one of the sons Abraham).
The plates had disappeared for decades and were found later. Both scientists , Mormons and non-mormons examined the material and arrived at the conclusion that these plates dated around from the year 1840. The LDS leadership didn't want to believe it first, and then accepted it. They give the secretary of Joseph Smith, William Clayton, the fault now so that their prophet stands innocent!
I think that all of you should know this!

All this information are facts which I have carried from different sources together. Nothing to this is wrong or doubtfully but multiple protected by different statements.
Cindi, I don't find your behave okay, and have to think about it to leave the forum .

Witch of sadness, aka Linda

Hello Cindi.

I received an email from a new member who for some reason is unable to post.  I believe that they still must register, and they posting from Europe, so fogive the English, I am posting this on their behalf.  Do you know of the following:

Quote from: Gerlinde KenkelSome still to the witnesses to the Book of Mormon. There was three and eight witnesses at once. The three witnesses, David Whitmer, Oliver Cowdery and Martin Harris parted all three from him and the Mormons and accused Joseph Smith more differently crimes on. Under this adultery and immoral behavior. Particularly Oliver Cowdery, which was a councellor of Joseph Smith did this. He was later replaced by John C. Bennett, which homosexuality was confessed later. All three said later that they saw the Book of Mormon with "the eyes of the faith". Or they never saw it with their natural eyes but believed what Joseph Smith told to them, expressed differently.

The eight witnesses are:

Christian Whitmer, Jacob Whitmer, Peter Whitmer Jun, John Whitmer, Hiram Page, Joseph Smith Sen., Hyrum Smith und Samuel H. Smith.

Everyone was either related to Joseph Smith or close friends to him. Also they said that they saw the "golden plates" with the "eyes of the faith".

Some of them left the LDS church later and followed mormon sects.

Joseph Smith didn't have the gift of the translation for it; the story already proves alone around the "Kinderhook plates":

Some farmers wanted to show Joseph Smith up; and had plates made of brass which decorated her with characters produced of a blacksmith. They buried the plates, and help a mormon to "found" the plates which claimed that Joseph Smith could translate the plates. Joseph Smith agreed, and said later, that these plates would come from a descendant of Ham(one of the sons Abraham).

The plates had disappeared for decades and were found later. Both scientists , Mormons and non-mormons examined the material and arrived at the conclusion that these plates dated around from the year 1840. The LDS leadership didn't want to believe it first, and then accepted it. They give the secretary of Joseph Smith, William Clayton, the fault now so that their prophet stands innocent!

I think that all of you should know this!

Dear Stephanie,

how I had already written to you I couldn't send my posting to Susan's Place because of a technical problem I have had. Later it works anyway and I bedded down the contribute into my Posting to Cindi. I would like to apologize in this place that my English is so terrible and for the trouble which I have made to you.
Excuse my fault once again, please!  :-* :angel:
I will have to think intensively now whether this forum is the right place for me. Escaped from the captivity of a sect for me a liberal expression of opinion has got enormously important.

Wos, aka Gerlinde Kenkel

Witch, please don't apologize for your English.  You are fine.  We understand you.  As I have stated before, I too have had problems with conservative religions.  There are many reasons why I can no longer accept the LDS religion. You need to know that you are not alone.

But for the purposes of this topic, I have tried to keep it on track and only present answers to questions based on the Mormon church's doctrine and self proclaimed history.  I have tried to answer the questions based on how the Mormons would answer them to promote a greater understanding of what this religion proclaims to be. 

Every religion has its quirks and problems.  Thanks for your comments.  Don't feel that you are alone in your feelings.  There are others like you.

Cindi

Cindi,
Thanks for answering my questions.  I never could by into the whole Joseph Smith thing and was always sort of suprised with people that could. I just did not get that.

I see religion as a socializing agent, and I think Christ warned people quite effectively if they would have just listened, watch out for the churches, seldom are they really houses of his father....something like that. God can reach us...all of us right where we are, don't need to be in a church, all I have to do is be open to a spiritual enlightenment from my soul/spirit whatever a person wants to call it. God was with me every step of the way, and churches abused me, condemned me etc.  As a orphan I had my share with the Baptist and with the Catholic and Penticostals...thankfully it is not in those buildings, under man made laws and interpretations that you find God!

I want to thank you for sharing the educational aspects of the Mormon church. It is very interesting and I am reading threw this thread as others continue to post. I get what your doing and your doing a great job! Thanks for sharing it with us seriously!

Peace,
Taylor

PS I am a man of God not a man of any religion or church, that was my greatest blessing. Talk about being free.

@ Taylor,

Quote*PS I am a man of God not a man of any religion or church, that was my greatest blessing. Talk about being free.

Many thanks that you had made the difference considerably!
There is an old joke in Germany in which it is said that one loves God but is dissatisfied with the "ground staff".
The churches and her representatives which asks the victims of others are meant for it with that they are never ready to give!

WoS

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 24, 2006, 11:41:10 AM
I've told it before, but it is buried in the ether somewhere....  Hubby tells people he's a Bochalist.  When someone asks him what that means he responds with: "I believe in bochalism."  When people ask about my beliefs, I tell them that I'm a Druid.  When they ask me what I believe in, I say:  "Look up.... and there you go!"  Between the two of us, most folk just assume we are crazy loones!

I could tell people I'm a minimalist and worship being lazy and doing as little as possible. :P

Melissa

Quote from: Cindianna_Jones on October 24, 2006, 12:08:34 PM
Please ask what you will and I will answer in my most thoughtful manner.  Many people have many unanswered questions about the Mormons.  And I promise to be nice.

Cindi

One of my favorite Bears players of all time is Jim McMahon.  He was often mistaken for being Mormon.  Was it his hair or the Roselle headband that caused this?  Sorry, I don't know much else about the Mormons.

Julie

Quote from: Julie Marie on November 06, 2006, 08:43:08 AM

One of my favorite Bears players of all time is Jim McMahon.  He was often mistaken for being Mormon.  Was it his hair or the Roselle headband that caused this?  Sorry, I don't know much else about the Mormons.

Julie

I don't follow football much but I do know the answer to this one. I believe that Jim was born and reared in the Catholic faith.  Jim played football for BYU.  BYU is an LDS (Mormon) church run school.  There are very few non Mormons who attend.  Many of the required classes are religioius... so it isn't terribly attractive to non members. If you attend BYU, it is naturally assumed that you are a member of the Mormon Church.  Jim was the star quarterback for a couple of years.  Steve Young followed in his footsteps.

Cindi

Dear Cindi,

I was in Provo at the BYU many years ago(1979) once for some weeks. This what I experienced there, was afraid and conformity pressure there. Students spied on their fellow students and four people (about whom I know) had to leave the area because of homosexuality and pregnancy in these five weeks.
A German athlete who also was there (1995) at the BYU years later reported similar. In a newspaper interview she told that she had secretly to creep from the window to go to her boyfriend (he was an afro-american).
Like in almost all Christian universities and colleges, it is a pain for freedom-loving people to live there!

WoS