A couple things have spurred this thread, which should probably be in a place for both FTM and MTF but I only really post here so *shrug*
The first thing is that I've been watching re-runs of the L word on Living, with my friends, and we started right at the point where Moira (?) is becoming Max. Now this was teh first time I'd watched the L word anyway, and you know, it seems like a progressive show. A bit later on and I keep getting really freaking annoyed at the story arc for Max. I know trans people have been in a couple of shows, but let's face it it's not common. I reckon this is a show with a lot of influence, and I know this is probably a very old plotline but whatever. Firstly, as far as I can tell from reading what people post here about T.......... It's far more normal for a guy to become far more peaceful / happy / calm in life on T (passing more, feeling better in their own body, exciting changes etc) than say, aggressive and dickish. Of course some things are bound to change, but only within the boundaries of the personality you already had. The show seems really biased against Max's transition, he turns into a total ->-bleeped-<-, and it feels like he's instantly separated from the other characters on the show. They explain it a little saying he's on too much T, but that seems like a cop out to me. There is a scene with a 'trans meeting' and it all sounds really contrived and unrealistic, the way those guys were talking about it. Pissed me off. Then again surely they don't depict lesbians in a true light, from this show you would assume ALL lesbians are raging sluts and sleep around constantly.
That's the first time I have seen a trans guy in a mainstream show (I don't watch hollyoaks or whatever the show was that recently had an FTM in it, hopefully the view is much more progressive) and I was disappointed.
Not to mention, whenever transsexuals are mentioned in a ''normal'' tv show, it's usually derogatory. Countless examples against MTF's, which disgusts me, how blasé and crass the comments in everyday prime time shows can be. I can't state an example per se, I'll find some, but generally the whole 'I ACCIDENTALLY SLEPT WITH A MTF! HOW DISGUSTING!" ... uh... And nobody bats an eyelid. We're all people, with feelings, and even without this degradation we have our own self issues, hating the way we look or the body we were born in (generalising) to deal with. Max's partner in the L word, who breaks up with him, said something basically along the lines of 'you make people uncomfortable, they will always give you a second look and will always question what you are and you will never fit in' and the show seriously didn't give the impression that what she said was wrong, and certainly didn't give the impression that what she said was totally out of order.
...............Anyway today I watched Boys Don't Cry for the first time and uh, bawled my eyes out afterwards. Based on a true story, granted, so hopefully bound to get it right but it really made me feel terrible afterwards. Not because it was bad but because it was good, and because it was real. Brandon died the year I was born even and it really got to me about how many of us out there are suffering and we seem to have the least support from the ''LGBT'' community. Seems like the L and G look after each other but disregard the B and T side.
TV is the most popular medium to reach out to the more lgbt - uneducated crowd, imo, and be it via film or a series I really believe there needs to be something done about this. I'm just about to look into what media related things there have been for transexuals, but afaik I'm pretty clued up on what's popular on TV and in film and there is nothing with us in it, portrayed fairly and accurately.
And I mean to include everyone who feels they need to be heard with this post, not just transsexuals but questioning and the whole spectrum.
Even though the L word was really unrealistic about gay women, I felt the Max character and how the show wrote the experience for FTMs was really intentionally biased and very negative.
I remember one episode where he was raising money for his top surgery and the guys they showed with post op chests were just awful looking and looked like they had been all cut up. Like getting top surgery is butchering to ones body. I know that everyone's body is different and we all get different results, but my take from that show was total anti-trans each and every related episode.
Now my experience (and this could be very different from others) with the LGBTQ scene has they have always been ignorant of trans issues and not wanting to associate openly with those who are transgender and transexuals. I always had the worst reactions from gay women when I first came out and began to transition. It was very negative overall.
Politically speaking, I've found trans issues to be ignored and dismissed by the LGBTQ organizations. Like we bring them down in how the general public see them. We aren't "normal" or good enough for them but at the same time they want to be seen as inclusive so we get a letter in their identification group as a whole. But nothing else.
I should stop ranting now. >:-)
A huge irritation for me was watching Chaz Bono's documentation on OWN. Worst trans* show ever, horrible depiction of what testosterone does to you. I wish my mom had not seen that because it gave her a horrible insight on what I "want".
>:( stupid chaz
I understand he wants a celebrity face for the FtM community it's just... I don't think it should be his.
I was discussing this with my friend and we were talking about how, when it comes to support, we lose some of... ugh. I'm not some kind of 'omg Trans community YEAH' fundie or something, so please don't get that impression from this post- we lose some of our 'own' after transition- those who become 'stealth. Obviously, that is a personal choice, and I understand it so don't let it seem like I am insulting anyone who is stealth. Plus the boundary is a bit fuzzy there, what I mean is someone who just cuts off from the 'community' and disassociates themselves with anything to do with it in order to just live a normal cis lifestyle. I am happy for them, but in turn it means we lose support and knowledge and all sorts of things that people pre everything need, and what the transsexual ''image'' needs- that of ''well adjusted'' individuals coming out the other side with their success stories. What I am saying is, it doesn't help that a big portion of transsexuals disappear once it's all over for them, if yout get what I mean. I don't begrudge anyone who has done that (in most cases; I don't personally know anyone who has) but it doesn't help.
We need to come together and fight for this one. I'm going to get all riled up about this, but with us there is so much shame and so much embarrassment that it feels like we'll never have enough people around to stand up against all this misinformation and outright prejudice. Things that come inherent with our problems. In no way am I saying lesbians or homosexuals had it any easier, but we're inherently at a disadvantage when it comes to amassing some kind of campaign that will get noticed- there's less of us, being transsexual in itself means you do not want others to know you are transsexual, and people coming out the other side of transition often disappear off the map. Before I came out I literally had no idea about transsexuals. I knew about everything else but was completely in the dark that how I felt could be made better and that I was not alone.
Finally, in my experience, I've encountered people undedicated about this who would appear to be the type who would be very prejudiced (chavs, in this case, on a bus) but when we explained it to them they -kinda- got it and were just cool with it. It can be a confusing subject. IT does push the way people think and the way society has moulded people. I don't expect people to just know what's going on, so if nobody's telling them, how is it ever going to change?
Quote from: DevinJW on July 19, 2011, 01:51:03 AM
I was discussing this with my friend and we were talking about how, when it comes to support, we lose some of... ugh. I'm not some kind of 'omg Trans community YEAH' fundie or something, so please don't get that impression from this post- we lose some of our 'own' after transition- those who become 'stealth. Obviously, that is a personal choice, and I understand it so don't let it seem like I am insulting anyone who is stealth. Plus the boundary is a bit fuzzy there, what I mean is someone who just cuts off from the 'community' and disassociates themselves with anything to do with it in order to just live a normal cis lifestyle. I am happy for them, but in turn it means we lose support and knowledge and all sorts of things that people pre everything need, and what the transsexual ''image'' needs- that of ''well adjusted'' individuals coming out the other side with their success stories. What I am saying is, it doesn't help that a big portion of transsexuals disappear once it's all over for them, if yout get what I mean. I don't begrudge anyone who has done that (in most cases; I don't personally know anyone who has) but it doesn't help.
We need to come together and fight for this one. I'm going to get all riled up about this, but with us there is so much shame and so much embarrassment that it feels like we'll never have enough people around to stand up against all this misinformation and outright prejudice. Things that come inherent with our problems. In no way am I saying lesbians or homosexuals had it any easier, but we're inherently at a disadvantage when it comes to amassing some kind of campaign that will get noticed- there's less of us, being transsexual in itself means you do not want others to know you are transsexual, and people coming out the other side of transition often disappear off the map. Before I came out I literally had no idea about transsexuals. I knew about everything else but was completely in the dark that how I felt could be made better and that I was not alone.
I agree with you dude. One guy who just cut out the LGBT community was GoodnightQuietCity on youtube. He got harassed at a gay bar by a guy who asked if he was trans then stuck his hand down his pants. I feel extremely bad for sean, but that doesn't mean he should cut out of the 'community'
anyway, I will rile up with you lol
It varies here in Australia. On the one hand there are plenty of well handled stories on current affairs shows about people struggling to overcome their problems. They are usually quite sympathetic.
And on the other hand you get the twits on "Sunrise", morning show going on about Chaz Bono coming out and treating it like a joke and using terms like "he-she" etc. They usually cop a serve and their switchboard lights up. Their newsreader had to apologise for referring to the Sydney Mardi Gras as having "disgusting" elements a while ago.
As far as I know "Neighbours" and "Home and Away" have not had any trans characters yet. They still don't seem to be able to do a gay storyline that is significant.
Karen
Quote from: Kerberos on July 19, 2011, 01:12:01 AM
Even though the L word was really unrealistic about gay women, I felt the Max character and how the show wrote the experience for FTMs was really intentionally biased and very negative.
I remember one episode where he was raising money for his top surgery and the guys they showed with post op chests were just awful looking and looked like they had been all cut up. Like getting top surgery is butchering to ones body. I know that everyone's body is different and we all get different results, but my take from that show was total anti-trans each and every related episode.
Now my experience (and this could be very different from others) with the LGBTQ scene has they have always been ignorant of trans issues and not wanting to associate openly with those who are transgender and transexuals. I always had the worst reactions from gay women when I first came out and began to transition. It was very negative overall.
Politically speaking, I've found trans issues to be ignored and dismissed by the LGBTQ organizations. Like we bring them down in how the general public see them. We aren't "normal" or good enough for them but at the same time they want to be seen as inclusive so we get a letter in their identification group as a whole. But nothing else.
I should stop ranting now. >:-)
I agree with you also about the LGBTQ organizations. Honestly, I feel gender variants don't belong with sexual orientations. It just gives people the wrong idea about how "we're in denial of our sexuality and want to be straight" =_=
According to wiki there are only 6 films with an FTM as a focus, quite a few more with an MTF - but that include any incidental characters, and ''comedy'' films, and even then there really isn't a long list.
Some titles of episodes of tv shows are also really out of line, 'the he in the she' (bones) I mean really what is this ->-bleeped-<- >:| people seem to think it's ok to make fun like that. I really don't think I'm being uptight about this.
I forgot to add in any of my posts so far that it's ridiculous that in the US health insurance doesn't cover transition. I am transitioning with UK's NHS, a heaven send and the best thing about this silly country. Without that I would be utterly boned, I come from a 'low class' income family. I'd have had no chance.
Quote from: justmeinoz on July 19, 2011, 02:03:13 AM
It varies here in Australia. On the one hand there are plenty of well handled stories on current affairs shows about people struggling to overcome their problems. They are usually quite sympathetic.
And on the other hand you get the twits on "Sunrise", morning show going on about Chaz Bono coming out and treating it like a joke and using terms like "he-she" etc. They usually cop a serve and their switchboard lights up. Their newsreader had to apologise for referring to the Sydney Mardi Gras as having "disgusting" elements a while ago.
As far as I know "Neighbours" and "Home and Away" have not had any trans characters yet. They still don't seem to be able to do a gay storyline that is significant.
Karen
Here we have jeremy kyle and such- the jerry springer type shows. And they aren't sympathetic, they sensationalise it and really often embarrass people on there. And example, an episode where a FTM and his dad are on the show, and the mother, and Jeremy of course had to mediate between two opinions yes- but everyone on the show apart from a transitioned MTF in the audience was ill informed and prejudiced. The guy was 16 I think and I felt so sad for him, sometimes you think the people that go on those shows are only doing it for money or attention or who knows what but I mean you could completely tell what he was going through was real, and he was probably there for help.
Fortunately a Jerry Springer type show wouldn't work here. Too many people would go on just to take the piss out of him. People here do watch him, but just to see how bad he can get.
We have had "Priscilla" here, but it is primarily a musical, so is slightly different in emphasis.
I have no doubt someone here will eventually make a decent movie or TV show with a trans main character, even if it is along the lines of the movies "The Castle", or "Strange Bedfellows."
Which reminds me the latter actually had a couple of minor supporting characters who were trans or drag queens, but were treated as normal people who welcomed Paul Hogan's and Michael Caton's characters into their community.
It is a very uplifting and warm hearted movie, as well as being extremely funny, and a genuine Aussie Classic. I wouldn't be surprised if it is remade, set in another country town elsewhere in the world.
Will Coronation Street beat us to it I wonder?
Karen.
Quote from: DevinJW on July 19, 2011, 01:51:03 AM
I was discussing this with my friend and we were talking about how, when it comes to support, we lose some of... ugh. I'm not some kind of 'omg Trans community YEAH' fundie or something, so please don't get that impression from this post- we lose some of our 'own' after transition- those who become 'stealth. Obviously, that is a personal choice, and I understand it so don't let it seem like I am insulting anyone who is stealth. Plus the boundary is a bit fuzzy there, what I mean is someone who just cuts off from the 'community' and disassociates themselves with anything to do with it in order to just live a normal cis lifestyle. I am happy for them, but in turn it means we lose support and knowledge and all sorts of things that people pre everything need, and what the transsexual ''image'' needs- that of ''well adjusted'' individuals coming out the other side with their success stories. What I am saying is, it doesn't help that a big portion of transsexuals disappear once it's all over for them, if yout get what I mean. I don't begrudge anyone who has done that (in most cases; I don't personally know anyone who has) but it doesn't help.
In part, this makes me somewhat, sad. Not because it's false. Because it's so very true. I do not identify as being a transgender specifically. But in all technicality I am. I feel somewhat like one of those people who would just ditch out on the community once my transition is complete. I've never played an active role in the community, nor have I met any trans in my area. I've been interested but not actively seeking. I think you're accurate in saying there needs to be more people standing together trying to relay the message. But to be honest, I'm way too chicken for that. I don't have the guts to be judged or looked at like that. My biggest fear is telling someone that previously didn't know, that I was born a girl and them forever looking at me like "Look at her, I mean him..." Or the whispers to their family or friends about me, and how I was born a girl but now think I'm a guy. I just can't stand the thought of someone ever considering that I was anything more then myself. At no point was I a girl, my body just lied to everybody (haha, so I say).
I want to work within the community, but be stealth. I want to help those in situations, without being a face of it. I know it's such a chicken way to do it. I want to become a doctor. Maybe even go in a direction of working with some trans people directly, but in stealth personally. I wish there was more media out, but to be honest, I watch it more out of curiosity. At times, I wish I could have the balls some of you completely out, proud people have, but I don't.
I completely understand what you mean. At the same time, I know I wouldn't be a person in that group to spear the media frenzy, the correction of people's misgivings. And I feel almost... shameful for that.
Last night, another online group I belong to touched on this topic (trans men in the media). The sentiment was very similar, that so-and-so was annoying or trans men were ill-portrayed. I agree that most trans characters are used for laughs or bit-parts or are seen as an oddity. General ignorance of trans issues plays a big part in that which is possibly due to, like Devin mentioned, some trans people living stealth after transitioning. I mean, look at how few have stuck around on this board after getting on T or having surgery. Sure, a lot of the guys will post occasionally but they didn't get 1k+ posts by just sporadically posting. I don't have the figures to back it up, but I'd be willing to bet that the bulk of those posts were made pre-T/pre-op.
As for myself, I'm relatively stealth. Less than 10 people from my high school, less than 5 from junior college, and 2 students from university. Others may have found out through rumors, but I didn't tell them myself. Faculty were aware of my situation by necessity. Some of my doctors know, some don't. My family, some friends, and my boyfriend know, but that's about it besides some of my mom's friends. It's just a "need to know" thing.
I don't feel like it's my duty necessarily to be "out and proud" or get heavily involved in the local community. Maybe I would feel differently if the "local" community was closer to where I live. But the greatest concentration of trans people, it seems, are about 2 hours west of me or 3 hours north. I do feel the need to connect with others in my state, but mostly with resources. I found it very difficult to find trans-friendly doctors and therapists as well as legal info when I was first transitioning. I want it to be easier for others, but I mostly want to help over the internet. Meeting offline...I'm afraid of being outed.
For me personally, I view this as medical condition. I don't feel like it's everyone's personal to know my medical history. Do I wish things were different? Of course. But will I actively try to change it? Probably not. I do, however, want to be a FPMHNP (Family Psychiatric Mental Health Nurse Practitioner) someday. I'm interested in providing therapy and prescribing hormones, streamlining the process a bit. I'm already an RN so it would just be another 2-3 years of schooling plus a lot of continuing education. I seriously doubt though that I will be out as trans (although it may become apparent to my clients and other well-informed health care professionals). And I don't see anything shameful about that.
I agree with Adio. Sometimes I think we kind-of "owe" it to the community to be out and proud and I know for me, it's no one's business.
I dont like the L word I felt the trans people there where too unrealistic and I only really watched it because shane where hot.. LOL
---------
the tvshow I watch who had a more or realistic relationship to trans people where hourou musuko.
some complain about the ending who is way diffrent than the comic but the emotions are very touching generally in the story, and the people arnt potrated badly.
--
"I agree with you also about the LGBTQ organizations. Honestly, I feel gender variants don't belong with sexual orientations. It just gives people the wrong idea about how "we're in denial of our sexuality and want to be straight" =_="
I dont see it that way. for me it more about the political statement. the thing about "love is love gender dosent matter" both refern to sexualety and gender identety, as it dosent matter what gender you fall in love with or what gender you are, as long as your happy.
the reason for dicrimination in the gay world is the same as for transgender people in the transworld.
some gay people feel they want to be seen as normal and like everybody ells, and they cant stand transexuals or people generally being more femenine or maculine than there biological sex as they feel it gives the wrong image and there scared of being misunderstanding as being extremly femenine or maculine just because there gay.
like some transexuals have big trouble with ->-bleeped-<-s because they want to be seen as normal but they think ->-bleeped-<-s get much attention and send the wrong signals.
it simple as that,
a endless fight between "we are just like anybody ells" and "no we are diffrent just accept it"
at least now i know that i shouldn't ever watch the l word, or maybe i should watch it just to know exactly what is wrong with it if people start talking about it
i'm planning to not be stealth if i happen to decide on transition as the best choice for me. i'm already seen as weird, the people around my age have rejected me already in grade school and middle school, so i don't have anything to loose apart from certain members of my family. but this is just because there's no way to be stealth in a community where everybody knows everybody else, and i plan to stay here for most of the rest of my life. but i totally understand that many just want to have a peaceful life as the person they really are
Quote from: Taka on July 19, 2011, 11:20:41 AM
at least now i know that i shouldn't ever watch the l word, or maybe i should watch it just to know exactly what is wrong with it if people start talking about it
i'm planning to not be stealth if i happen to decide on transition as the best choice for me. i'm already seen as weird, the people around my age have rejected me already in grade school and middle school, so i don't have anything to loose apart from certain members of my family. but this is just because there's no way to be stealth in a community where everybody knows everybody else, and i plan to stay here for most of the rest of my life. but i totally understand that many just want to have a peaceful life as the person they really are
watch it to drool over Shane.. LOL
I think there was an episode of NCIS which involved a trans woman; I personally felt that they handled it really rather well (with the exception of pronoun usage, but otherwise I felt it was really rather respectful, especially considering it's basically a military-based show). This comes with the disclaimer that I'm very hard to offend, so others may be more sensitive to this. In a different note, I believe it was Criminal Minds which involved a gay victim and that team was very much respectful in that instance as well. But I know that's a little off-topic.
Personally, I've always identified as a man while knowing that that makes me transsexual (well, when I realized there was actually a term for this), and I've generally had it easier than a lot of trans or even other LGBTQ people. Consequently, I do plan to be as stealth as I possibly can, and I haven't been entirely active in the community: I help or offer advice or input where I feel I can or it's warranted, but otherwise there's actually a lot that I have a hard time relating to. Or that I at least have no experience with. But I'm always willing to help where I can.
I've struggled with whether I would disconnect from "the community" once I'm "done" with my transition, but at the same time I've felt more like a visitor to the community than a genuine part of it if that makes sense (and this has absolutely nothing to do with the community itself, this is something I know has more to do with me). I think, however, that even once I am able to be completely stealth and there is little more left for me to do transition-wise that I would still be just as willing to help when and where I can, especially in the areas where I have wished there was more help or advice or experience available to learn from. Though whether I would be in a position to see opportunities as much, well, that remains to be seen -- I am bi, so technically even stealth I'll have a foot in the LGBTQ door. Even if I were straight, however, there are "straight allies" who step up and defend the LGBTQ community and its individual members.
Being stealth and being involved don't necessarily have to be mutually exclusive endeavors. "Out and proud" isn't for everyone, it takes certain people to be willing to live life like that and it makes no one any less of a person to choose not to. That doesn't mean, however, that the rest have no options for helping the community and fighting prejudice, ignorance, and general lack of knowledge, and they don't even have to come out to do so if they don't wish to.
Quote from: Natkat on July 19, 2011, 11:29:04 AM
watch it to drool over Shane.. LOL
you just gave me reason to do something stupid..
my favorite trans gender themed series is the manga "family compo" by hojo tsukasa about a seemingly normal family where all have found their place in society, and their cis gendered nephew who moves in after his father's death. it's centered around this young man who has to cope with something he never knew existed within his own family, and with being forced to crossdress by members of the film club at his college. it's a comedy, and that's probably what allows it to touch so many aspects of both the gender and sexuality spectrums without getting depressing and angsty
The portrayal of Max in The L Word bothered me quite a bit. My girlfriend and one of our friends were rewatching the series before Netflix pulled it off Instant Streaming. When I voiced my displeasure to my GF she pointed out that Max was taking way too much T for a normal dose and was getting it of the street, so who knows if it was even really safe to be using.
Chaz Bono is....not my favorite person. He did an interview where he said that T changed his entire personality and that since starting T he hates "chick stuff." He's also stated several times that there is only male or female - and that there aren't any in between places in gender. I really don't think he should be the face of the FTM community either, but we'll see what happens with that. Hopefully he'll just fade into the background...
I didn't mean for it to come across that I thought everyone should be 'out and proud', and I too think of this as a medical issue. Which is another thing people should be more aware of! I understand too that some people transitioning were never part of the community anyway, in the first place. But some people also draw from a lot of resources and disappear, and that's just the way it goes for us. I just wanted to point out that it makes it even harder for the problems we're all facing to get fixed, because of the nature of transsexualism.
@Ratchet I really admire your honesty here and I completely agree with the way you see things. I don't even know if I am able to be 'that' person, at the end of the day being stealth, if you can, is what we are aiming for, and if it wasn't for our predicament we would just be cis, and that's all there is to it. At the moment for me I have no choice, I don't pass all that much so when I meet people I pretty much eventually have to tell them within a few hours because it gets too awkward and confusing (with friends around who call me male pronouns). Don't feel shameful, you want to give back to the 'community' (it really makes me feel like a twat calling it that but there's no other word) but you also need to feel comfortable with yourself, and like others have said nobody needs to know your medical history if it's not absolutely necessary.
I'm going through a difficult period in my journey right now. I really hope I come out the other side much stronger and wiser, and I would love to make a difference. I think I'll spend a lot of time trying to think about what I can do, and start meeting up with the London groups and such. I like feeling useful, and it would be a dream for me if I could help the stigma and misinformation go away.
Again when I say us, our, community, and such I mean it in a friendly and open way, significant others and allies and anyone who agrees that things have to change and we all deserve fair social treatment. Similarly, again I really don't begrudge anyone who disappears into stealth-dom, in fact, I don't like calling it that. Those who do, they're just being who and what they would have been were it not that they were born different. Just that it adds to the issues we face in trying to fix the current situation, and it's an issue that can't be helped.
Quote from: Cameron James on July 19, 2011, 03:45:25 PM
Chaz Bono is....not my favorite person. He did an interview where he said that T changed his entire personality and that since starting T he hates "chick stuff." He's also stated several times that there is only male or female - and that there aren't any in between places in gender. I really don't think he should be the face of the FTM community either, but we'll see what happens with that. Hopefully he'll just fade into the background...
the first week after I started T I brought 4 hallo kitty caps, to join the hallo kitty team (on some festival)
and pink hallo kitty icecream.. oh yeah T diffently makes your more maculine..
I don't really care to be "stealth." I agree that a large part of the reason transmen aren't depicted too accurately in the media is likely that many of us just fade into the background after transition, so it's tough for anyone to really know what it's truly like.
The L Word.... I loved it for the first two seasons. Then came Moira/Max. The episode where he has Alan Cumming give him a ->-bleeped-<- was the last I saw; how's that for a despicable portrayal of a transman? I know there is, unfortunately, a great amount of bias in the lesbian community toward transmen, but come on!
I have to disagree, though, about Chaz Bono... I like him. I may be making myself an enemy by saying this, but seeing his documentary was the first time I felt I really, truly was not alone. Maybe it's because I, too, was a great guy until testosterone. The documentary, though, tells exactly what I've realized: it's not the testosterone that changes you, it's the feeling of empowerment. If you've never been hurt, and suddenly have that empowerment, I think it can enable you to take on the world, rather than becoming an angry, aggressive guy. However, if you've felt for your entire life that you've been put upon and stepped on, you can use that assertiveness to get back at people... and this can be an incredibly destructive thing.
I second the recommendation on Degrassi; I am hopelessly addicted to the show despite being far past the teenage years myself, and I think they've done a great job with Adam's character (the ftm character). If only it were easier to view in the U.S.
Maybe it's just me, but I thought the Max character on the L Word wasn't all that far-fetched. I can't tell you how many posts just on other trans forums I'd seen just when lurking over the past couple of years where transmen were being sexist and spouting out tired gender stereotypes that were almost as bad as Max's 'lobster story'. I also can think of countless angry, self pitying threads about having to wear binders, rich relatives/friends refusing to help pay for surgery, ect. I've seen threads from girlfriends of transitioning FTM's pleading for help understanding and helping their withdrawn, sullen, and even aggressive boyfriends. Also, Alan Cummings giving Max a ->-bleeped-<-? Also far from unheard of, plenty of transmen who before transition were only with women end up experimenting with men once they're more comfortable and being treated as men. Check out the Craigslist personals in more trans-friendly cities for proof of that. So many of those guys admit to having girlfriends too.
In later seasons, Max is actually a more likable character(although the whole pregnancy thing was kind of dramatic), but I never really took his portrayal in earlier seasons as a slight against transmen, more as a cautionary tale about a hasty young man with a crappy childhood who took testosterone off the street from a crack addict and made other bad decisions. I took his transition story as what not to do, he was so self-absorbed that he was obnoxious beyond words, without a doubt. I think the writers' treatment of some of the lesbian characters was worse though. Jenny, for example.
tl;dr Was Max the best depiction for FTM's? Nope, he was a total prat, but I've totally come across transmen like him, so it wasn't completely inaccurate either. My guess is that the creators of the show (who are lesbians) had run across a few obnoxious transmen in their lives who inspired 'Max'. ><
As for Chaz, I don't know enough about him to form an opinion. Buck Angel is awesome though, and I look forward to his new documentary.
I am one of these type who dont think a ->-bleeped-<- is a bad symbol of trans people ;D
--
but well its 1 person so it sure wouldnt cover much of all transmen,
it not like when you have the lesbian characters, the tomboyish, the one in relationship, the this and that, or gay team where you have the nerdy, the badass, the innoncent twinks so on..
I diffently feel there should be a trans show only focusing on mtf and ftm of all diffrent types.
it woud be awsome,
Quote from: Sebastien on July 19, 2011, 06:07:42 PM
I don't really care to be "stealth." I agree that a large part of the reason transmen aren't depicted too accurately in the media is likely that many of us just fade into the background after transition, so it's tough for anyone to really know what it's truly like.
The L Word.... I loved it for the first two seasons. Then came Moira/Max. The episode where he has Alan Cumming give him a ->-bleeped-<- was the last I saw; how's that for a despicable portrayal of a transman? I know there is, unfortunately, a great amount of bias in the lesbian community toward transmen, but come on!
I have to disagree, though, about Chaz Bono... I like him. I may be making myself an enemy by saying this, but seeing his documentary was the first time I felt I really, truly was not alone. Maybe it's because I, too, was a great guy until testosterone. The documentary, though, tells exactly what I've realized: it's not the testosterone that changes you, it's the feeling of empowerment. If you've never been hurt, and suddenly have that empowerment, I think it can enable you to take on the world, rather than becoming an angry, aggressive guy. However, if you've felt for your entire life that you've been put upon and stepped on, you can use that assertiveness to get back at people... and this can be an incredibly destructive thing.
I second the recommendation on Degrassi; I am hopelessly addicted to the show despite being far past the teenage years myself, and I think they've done a great job with Adam's character (the ftm character). If only it were easier to view in the U.S.
Degrassi comes on the teennick or N channel on cable in the U.S.
I've only seen a transgender in a hospital/medical drama series. Not sure which one it was, but it was quite realistic.
On another note, here is a subbed dutch interview with two transgender guys.
Transgender Kids / Transmen on TV (English annotations) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nmYIU57Ckw#)
It's so annoying how testosterone is depicted as some sort of psychoactive drug that turns you into a raging incredible Hulk. If that is so then why isn't every single cis male and pre HRT trans woman overly aggressive then?
Also regarding post op chests being butchered- I notice lots of people also seem to think that post op vaginas are butchered too, and if not butchered, at least in some way inferior to cis vaginas. For example, in Nip/Tuck, one of the doctors was able to tell that a woman was trans because her vagina wasn't as deep as most, which is inaccurate- vaginas vary in depth among both cis and trans women, and not even a gynecologist can tell the difference between a cis and trans vagina.
I guess I could say that I lived "stealth". In regards to college, employer, neighbors, some doctors, and such. That changed for me about four months back. My employer found out about my change of name 3 years ago when our livescans (background checks) were brought up with an annual audit with the state and my name was incorrectly stated. She saw the different obviously female name with my last name and put two and two together. She sat me down and told me that she doesnt think any different of me, people can be who they want, blah blah. And after that would say stuff like she felt "girl energy" when I first interviewed, and would comment on things as if she was a new expert based on her viewing of the Chaz Bono show she watched.
I stopped working there about a month ago. I'd like to say it had nothing to do with being outed by licensing. And even though I stopped working for other reasons too, I would be lying to say it had no relation.
What bothered me the most was the lack of control over the situation. It came out of nowhere, I was unprepared, and had no choice about my private information being shared.
At the same time I feel guilty. Guilty for feeling ashamed of being who I am - a transsexual.
I live in a largish city with a sizeable trans community that has regular meetings. I went to them a couple times in the beginning for friendship but didn't personally mesh with people, so never went back or get involved.
It's sh***y, but I'm one of those people. The ones who hide in the dark and want to be stealth, all the while damning media presentations and peoples ignorance and discrimination. bleah, yeah.
Quote from: Darrin on July 19, 2011, 07:14:18 PM
Degrassi comes on the teennick or N channel on cable in the U.S.
I've been addicted to this show even before I was a teen, but I really love it now that Adam is on it (since summer of 2010, the boiling point). The new season (Now or never) started yesterday. Anyway, in the U.S (EST) it's on at 9:00-9:30pm on TeenNick, channel 124 on Optimum and Channel 255 on FiOS
As for his plot this season, all I've read is that him and Dave rival because Dave disses Adam for being ftm.
Random Degrassi info?
Yea buddy
I think Adam on Degrassi was one of the better written trans characters. The L Word always pissed me off. They go so many things wrong, it's no even funny. That sh-t about the lobsters? False. The timeline between Maxx going on T (illegally which is very hard to find IMO) and when he became pregnant doesn't line up in my head. I mean...how likely is it that a person will get pregnant after taking T for about a year, maybe more and is continuing their shot? Just...the stuff going on didn't seem to line up in my head.
I also saw the Chaz Bono documentary and was very disappointed. I didn't feel like any of the people involved were like-able. I think it was a bad and inaccurate portrayal of what happens on T. Also, Chaz was horribly misogynistic which pissed me off so much.
Boys Don't Cry is one of those movies most if not all trans people see and end up sobbing the whole time. I was supposed to watch it as part of training or a discussion when I worked at an LGBT youth center. I ended up telling whoever was in charge "I cannot watch this." I was allowed to opt out because it puts me in such a bad head space.
Oh, there was also Transgeneration! I loved TJ. Love him to bits! I had some problems understanding Lucas, and there's probably a lot of people out there that relate to him but he just didn't do it for me. Got under my skin, that whole bit.
Quote from: DevinJW on July 19, 2011, 01:51:03 AM
I was discussing this with my friend and we were talking about how, when it comes to support, we lose some of... ugh. I'm not some kind of 'omg Trans community YEAH' fundie or something, so please don't get that impression from this post- we lose some of our 'own' after transition- those who become 'stealth. Obviously, that is a personal choice, and I understand it so don't let it seem like I am insulting anyone who is stealth. Plus the boundary is a bit fuzzy there, what I mean is someone who just cuts off from the 'community' and disassociates themselves with anything to do with it in order to just live a normal cis lifestyle. I am happy for them, but in turn it means we lose support and knowledge and all sorts of things that people pre everything need, and what the transsexual ''image'' needs- that of ''well adjusted'' individuals coming out the other side with their success stories. What I am saying is, it doesn't help that a big portion of transsexuals disappear once it's all over for them, if yout get what I mean. I don't begrudge anyone who has done that (in most cases; I don't personally know anyone who has) but it doesn't help.
We need to come together and fight for this one.
i have a really different opinion on this. i'm just a normal 18 year old straight guy who's been waiting 18 years to be viewed as such. all i want is a normal peaceful life to live as i am and i don't think that i owe anything to anybody. i'm not, to quote many ill-informed people, "a transgender". i'm just a guy..
Quote from: RyGuy on July 20, 2011, 12:34:10 PM
i have a really different opinion on this. i'm just a normal 18 year old straight guy who's been waiting 18 years to be viewed as such. all i want is a normal peaceful life to live as i am and i don't think that i owe anything to anybody. i'm not, to quote many ill-informed people, "a transgender". i'm just a guy..
i might piss a lot of people off by saying this, but if you want to be REALLY out as a trans person, then in my opinion transitioning doesn't make as much sense. obviously before everyone jumps down my throat i do know what it's like to hate your own body, your own chromosomes, every feature you have, people using the wrong pronouns, interacting with you in a way that isn't consistent with your gender identity. i just don't know though. it's called FtM- female to male, not FtT- female to transsexual. it has nothing at all to do with me being a coward and not wanting to be "out" for fear of being made fun of or judged. i don't give a flying fig if people make fun of me for any reason. it just comes down to the fact that i am a normal male. my body has absolutely nothing to do with my gender identity which for all intents and purposes is stereotypically male. what i have to do or work on with my appearance has no bearing on me being me, and i despise being acknowledged as trans before i am acknowledged as a male.
i am ready and willing to give help and support to anyone who asks and am grateful that much is offered to me in return. i just see it as helping out some fellow guys with similar problems.
Different people transition for different reasons. I know some gender queer people that partly transition with hormones and a name change, some have surgery too. Their reasons aren't more or less valid.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 20, 2011, 01:03:14 PM
Different people transition for different reasons. I know some gender queer people that partly transition with hormones and a name change, some have surgery too. Their reasons aren't more or less valid.
This.
One thing that DOES bother me about the trans community is there seems to be this unwritten rule that if you don't fully transition, you are not "fully trans". Which, to me, is utterly ridiculous. To me, transitioning is about being comfortable with WHO YOU ARE. Not how "trans" you are. Not everyone experiences dysphoria the same way. So, not everyone needs to go "all the way". Everyone is different and no less valid because of how they choose to identify.
[/end rant]
Quote from: RyGuy on July 20, 2011, 12:46:57 PM
i might piss a lot of people off by saying this, but if you want to be REALLY out as a trans person, then in my opinion transitioning doesn't make as much sense. obviously before everyone jumps down my throat i do know what it's like to hate your own body, your own chromosomes, every feature you have, people using the wrong pronouns, interacting with you in a way that isn't consistent with your gender identity. i just don't know though. it's called FtM- female to male, not FtT- female to transsexual. it has nothing at all to do with me being a coward and not wanting to be "out" for fear of being made fun of or judged. i don't give a flying fig if people make fun of me for any reason. it just comes down to the fact that i am a normal male. my body has absolutely nothing to do with my gender identity which for all intents and purposes is stereotypically male. what i have to do or work on with my appearance has no bearing on me being me, and i despise being acknowledged as trans before i am acknowledged as a male.
i am ready and willing to give help and support to anyone who asks and am grateful that much is offered to me in return. i just see it as helping out some fellow guys with similar problems.
I don't understand your point of female to transdition, because your out? it dosen't really make sence and im not sure how your refering this?
for me im out as trans, and trandition. I wont refern myself female..
the people im around usunally know im trans,
mostly because it more easy to be honest with them, when they know and it cause less misunderstandings.
they know im a guy, they just also know I where born alittle diffrent, but it not a big deal.
I also been out in the media.
for 3 weeks ago I been together with some other trans people, showing young transgender tennegers for the first time in my country.
it been on newspapers, tv, and stuff, over the whole country being open about personally things.
the reason for me doing this wasnt to show myself, specially because I might lose my famely for it even more than if I didnt,
it where to help others, taking up some topics who been ignored so long because no one knew about them and no transgender people dare to be openly about it.
I feel alittle disapointed because some transpeople are openly mainly to fight the ignorance so most trans people can have better life,
and you put them on for less "trans" I cant stop felling, sad on that opinion.
---
Darring; it really should be a fight as long your happy, but boys will be boys,
if your cant brag about the size of your penis you must find something ells, ;)
yeah it ridiculous..
Quote from: Darrin on July 20, 2011, 01:14:06 PM
One thing that DOES bother me about the trans community is there seems to be this unwritten rule that if you don't fully transition, you are not "fully trans".
i had my suspicions that this might be the case, so i never even sought out any trans community. was terrified that i'd be rejected because i'm not typically male
or female. luckily i found the androgyne section here by chance, or i might have continued to struggle alone for years
if possible i'd transition into something which is neither or both male and/or female and live stealth as that. unfortunately society only recognized two genders, so even if i transition into the gender i am (or whatever comes closest to it), just by doing or looking like that i out myself as trans. it's some kind of paradox where i have to choose between stealth as something i am not, or being openly transgendered and hope i'll be accepted as my own gender. there are other possibilities which only deal with clothing, but i'm not sure that will be enough for me to feel good in my own skin
Quote from: Natkat on July 20, 2011, 02:16:17 PMDarring; it really should be a fight as long your happy, but boys will be boys,
if your cant brag about the size of your penis you must find something ells, ;)
yeah it ridiculous..
Wait, what? I'm not quite sure what you mean.
Quote from: Darrin on July 20, 2011, 03:51:24 PM
Wait, what? I'm not quite sure what you mean.
I just say guys like to compare each other.
and as I see for many trans guy there comparings in maculinety as well.
somethimes it feels like a compedition for who looks most maculine, and who is most manly
----
TAKA: well.. for me it depends allittle how mixed the comunety is, but yeah generally it often alittle transexual/->-bleeped-<- orientated, it also annoyes me since I feel more queer than male or female orientated.
some transexuals think there the only part who exist and other are not really there busniss/only putting them down, like some gay guys dosent like femenine gay people or queers, because they see themself as normal and the other are crazy and doing bad influence..
I dont know if this make sense..
@natkat: what you're writing makes sense. but one thing that i don't get is why we can't just accept each other as distinct personalities instead of having to apply all kinds of stereotypes to each other and criticizing the ones which whatever part of society preaches that we shouldn't see as equals
Quote from: Taka on July 20, 2011, 05:18:18 PM
@natkat: what you're writing makes sense. but one thing that i don't get is why we can't just accept each other as distinct personalities instead of having to apply all kinds of stereotypes to each other and criticizing the ones which whatever part of society preaches that we shouldn't see as equals
as I said before but in alittle more explenation
the only way I can think of is it as being 2 kind of people,
people who use "we are like anybody ells"
and people using "we are diffrent just accept it."
the first one aply to the sociaty as it generally is now with the box system,
that you have to be this or that, and your no diffrent from any other and follow this systems who already there.
the second one are more fluent, dosent really seam to wanting to fit in the same way or hide there ways,
I think the first part can see these people as bad influence,
as these dont want to seam "diffrent" while second category dosent want to fit in as the norm who dosent fit them. and I think the fights mainly starts here.
--
it kinda sad when people only can accept themself,
mostly the reason I head where "there bad influence" or "they got nothing to do with me"
I feel the first one is pretty rude, and the second one might be right, but GLBTA or Transcomunety, isnt 1
big group of simular people. its alot of diffrent people who got a commen opinion that there something about gender who dosent all fit the norm as it set up(a pride flag is also a rainbow symbol with alot of diffrent colours and that how these comunety works alot of diffrent colour conected in 1 sign).
I wish people could accept each other more, and not minding whatever gender or sexual orientation people had.
Quote from: Darrin on July 20, 2011, 01:14:06 PM
This.
One thing that DOES bother me about the trans community is there seems to be this unwritten rule that if you don't fully transition, you are not "fully trans". Which, to me, is utterly ridiculous. To me, transitioning is about being comfortable with WHO YOU ARE. Not how "trans" you are. Not everyone experiences dysphoria the same way. So, not everyone needs to go "all the way". Everyone is different and no less valid because of how they choose to identify.
[/end rant]
trust me i'm not arguing that being "really trans" or "all the way trans" is better than being "only kind of trans" because i don't even think such a thing as "partly trans" exists for all intent and purposes. all that i was trying to point out is my opinion: i have a physical disability. i am a boy with a physical problem, not a girl with a mental problem. i am not something "special". i am just like everyone else even if i have to work harder to be treated as such. people with other disabilities differ in opinion on the same issue. for example, some people with hearing loss would like to be treated like any other person, despite their impairment. other hard-of-hearing or deaf people believe themselves to be totally different and "special" for lack of a better word. the deaf community and culture, like the trans community, is rich and vibrant but not everyone whose physical condition would align them with the community needs to or wants to participate in it. both choices are valid, as are all gender identities and sexual orientations. i simply stated my opinion on a topic where i believed that personal opinions were solicited. i apologize if i offended anyone because of what i believe.
@RyGuy from the first post on the second page, just to clear anything up I don't pin any blame on people who go stealth just pointing it out as an unavoidable problem, once we transition, we're just normal people. It just makes it more difficult to get people to accept that fact for people who are out or are pre- transition, but again, unavoidable and completely understandable:
QuoteAgain when I say us, our, community, and such I mean it in a friendly and open way, significant others and allies and anyone who agrees that things have to change and we all deserve fair social treatment. Similarly, again I really don't begrudge anyone who disappears into stealth-dom, in fact, I don't like calling it that. Those who do, they're just being who and what they would have been were it not that they were born different. Just that it adds to the issues we face in trying to fix the current situation, and it's an issue that can't be helped.
As for the L word again, I realise that there are characters like that in real life, I just felt that being a really mainstream and popular show, it would have been better with a more accepting atmosphere. And jeeze I didn't even know he gets pregnant, after being on T for so long. That makes noooooooooo sense, medically.
Quote from: RyGuy on July 20, 2011, 08:29:47 PM
trust me i'm not arguing that being "really trans" or "all the way trans" is better than being "only kind of trans" because i don't even think such a thing as "partly trans" exists for all intent and purposes. all that i was trying to point out is my opinion: i have a physical disability. i am a boy with a physical problem, not a girl with a mental problem. i am not something "special". i am just like everyone else even if i have to work harder to be treated as such. people with other disabilities differ in opinion on the same issue. for example, some people with hearing loss would like to be treated like any other person, despite their impairment. other hard-of-hearing or deaf people believe themselves to be totally different and "special" for lack of a better word. the deaf community and culture, like the trans community, is rich and vibrant but not everyone whose physical condition would align them with the community needs to or wants to participate in it. both choices are valid, as are all gender identities and sexual orientations. i simply stated my opinion on a topic where i believed that personal opinions were solicited. i apologize if i offended anyone because of what i believe.
My comment wasn't directed at you specifically. Just in general. It's something that I've noticed around here. Some people seem to think it's all or nothing and say that those that don't embrace that mentality is wrong. It's just something that bothers me. But I wasn't saying you're wrong for having an opinion or anything.
I can't think of anything more relevant than this quote from the afterword to Women on Women edited by Joan Nestle and Naomi Holoch:
"We know, as other oppressed groups know, that silence, invisibility, help no one survive in the long run; we know that we must author our own stories because if we do not, our lives will be reduced to dirty jokes or simplistic summaries of deviant behavior."
Lisbeth, that is absolutely beautiful.
Why did this turn into a debate about the ->-bleeped-<-r-than-thous?
One thing that irks me is the feeling that documentaries will... exagerrate some things. 'Make Me a Man' (here: Make Me A Man (A documentary following female-to-male transsexuals) documentary 1 of 2 Part 1 of 5 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecmKVEgylVg#)) shows one of the guys, Scott, still binding with ACE bandages despite waiting for top surgery and being on hormones for a year. He seems like a sensible guy, so I doubt he's still binding with that method in reality. I suspect that 'look at how he wraps his chest down with these medical bandages!' is better for the camera than 'he puts on his binder, a top designed for comfort, safety and compression'. At least the series uses male pronouns - so many documentaries will still use 'she' or 'he' the wrong way round! I don't get it.
i suspect the reason why documentaries are made to seem a little extreme on way or the other is that
1. "nobody's interested in watching something without shock value" (just notice how many watch michael moore's movies compared to other documentaries)
2. we let other people do the job for us, and those other people aren't interested in revealing the truth. they only want a good story, one that people will watch
Quote from: Lisbeth on July 20, 2011, 09:08:34 PM
I can't think of anything more relevant than this quote from the afterword to Women on Women edited by Joan Nestle and Naomi Holoch:
"We know, as other oppressed groups know, that silence, invisibility, help no one survive in the long run; we know that we must author our own stories because if we do not, our lives will be reduced to dirty jokes or simplistic summaries of deviant behavior."
thats simply my words, I dont feel everyone must be out and proud if they dont feel like, but some people have to be open to make a visuble statement if no one dare to speak we cant be heard.
--
Taka;
that also annoyed me endless after making the interviuv and wathing one of my friend in the tv,
the youngest one every showed in tv in my country and I where so sure it would make a debatting,
but it didnt and I felt sooo disapointed, I had picked up some really serious topics and they where all ignored because people prefern seeing this as a interesting input than something to do anything about..
it disapointed me so much.
Wow, this thread has really hit on some very interesting subjects. I meant to put in my perspective a few days ago, but now I can peacefully do so.
On the subject of The L Word: I stopped watching that show after 1 episode into the fourth season....or whichever episode where Kit goes to that fake abortion clinic. Numerous things about the show totally made me tune out. The treatment of Max's character was some of the most careless I've seen in terms of transsexual men in the media. He was shown as going through transition practically overnight, he fell into the "aggressive Hulk smash" stereotype, and from what I've gathered reading this thread and online he ended up getting pregnant?! On one hand I figure "well, it's a show about lipstick lesbians, of course the tone will be hostile towards an FTM, but at the same time, couldn't people have done their homework?". What bothers me more is how people consistently refer to Max's character by the wrong pronouns - I can't help but think a lot of that has to do with how the show treated Max's story. However, I'm sure a lot of lesbians were ticked off about seeing themselves portrayed as sex-crazed wealthy fashionistas....
Chaz Bono: I have mixed feelings about him. I have not seen his documentary or read his book, which is why I'm suspending judgement for the time being, but I did like the fact he was one of the grand marshals at SF Pride this year (I'll get into my experience at Pride in a moment). I read something recently that he wants to marry his long time partner (I don't know if he has yet) because now he is legally male and wants to marry her. I've always held the strong conviction that until gays and lesbians can legally marry in my state (CA) then I have no business taking part in a heteronormative privilege....hence I saw crimson when I read that story on Chaz. Maybe I was seeing the green jealousy monster too, but he can do what he wishes...
I saved the big topic for last...
How we are treated/included/excluded by the Lesbian/Gay community (and sometimes the trans community: in my experience I've gotten frustrated by some group for some reason or another. I have my qualms about them all. For instance, when I went to SF Pride this year (last month) I never once passed as a guy. Not once. Not even for a single moment. Just no. I think people saw me as a butch or something. I don't get it. I had no trouble passing at all in conservative Orange County, but in Humboldt where I currently am, and in SF during pride weekend I didn't pass at all. I wanted to fit in with the gay guys, but it just wasn't happening. Also, I recall very vividly standing around and a guy who was waiting in line with me whippe out his pride information guide and said "Ohh, Chaz Bono is a grand marshal...I'm not sure how I feel about him/her." I quickly corrected him and said that I'm transsexual too and he said "oh really?" with this shocked look on his face (he assumed I was female.)
Consistently I feel as though I'm misunderstood by gay men, ostracized by lesbians, and seen as "lacking" by bisexuals of either sex. But this brings me to my next point...
Where I live there is a bunch of infighting within the small trans community we have. Some transsexuals wish to be liberated from the transgender umbrella and feel that by including transsexuals within that that it only hinders the progress of transsexuals. They're trying very desperately to break free of the "man in drag" stereotype and while I can understand and partially agree with where they're coming from I also disagree with the way things got hostile over time. On the other side of the fence there are trans people (whether transsexual or another identity label) who feel as though inclusion is a good thing and that there is more power in numbers. I take the latter approach but also hope that someday transsexuals will have liberation (myself included) and not be lumped together with all things transgender including cross dressers and gender-benders.
I even caught flack for wanting to identify as a feminine male once I have gone through the majorit of physical changes needed to be male on the outside. This trans person had the gall to question my motive for transitioning and if I was sure of what I was doing. A question that many cisgender people had asked me not knowing anything about transsexuality! Rude! But anyways, I'm one of those transsexuals who feels as though I don't need to conform to gender norms as a male - I spent too many years glued to the "female box" that I don't want to put myself through the same hell as a male. Some trans people are in favor of adhering to the already established strict gender binary - others wish to dismantle it. I notice I'm naturally drawn more to the latter kind of person.
Overall, I wish GLB people were more knowledgeable about trans issues and I wish people in the trans community could reach some kind of agreement/compromise without damaging our interpersonal relationships. I remain hopeful....
Quote from: Heath on July 25, 2011, 04:52:07 AMThe treatment of Max's character was some of the most careless I've seen in terms of transsexual men in the media. He was shown as going through transition practically overnight, he fell into the "aggressive Hulk smash" stereotype, and from what I've gathered reading this thread and online he ended up getting pregnant?!
That's what made me particularly upset. Changes on T do not happen that fast. I mean, growing facial hair but his voice never drops? Of course I realize that his actor is female, but even Adam on Degrassi (without hormones) seems to speak in a more male pattern. It's like the writers and Daniela Sea weren't even trying to be accurate.
QuoteI read something recently that he wants to marry his long time partner (I don't know if he has yet) because now he is legally male and wants to marry her...Maybe I was seeing the green jealousy monster too, but he can do what he wishes...
I wasn't aware of this. That's interesting to me, as I too wanted to marry my ex-girlfriend. Now that I've realized I'm actually gay, I've been experiencing jealousy toward other trans (and non-trans) people who are able to get married. It's complicated...but it's almost as if I envy gay/lesbian trans people who are able to be legally married due to their birth certificates not getting amended/changed. I'm very glad that all of my documents are changed, but...I don't know. It's hard to explain that feeling, but yeah, I agree that he can do what he wants whether anyone else likes it or not.
QuoteI think people saw me as a butch or something. I don't get it. I had no trouble passing at all in conservative Orange County, but in Humboldt where I currently am, and in SF during pride weekend I didn't pass at all. I wanted to fit in with the gay guys, but it just wasn't happening.
That's a fear of mine and what holds me back from going to pride events (or even gay clubs). I'm afraid that I won't pass and be seen as a lesbian (with facial hair??). I'd like to move out West eventually, but...would I ever "pass"? I honestly don't know.
QuoteOverall, I wish GLB people were more knowledgeable about trans issues and I wish people in the trans community could reach some kind of agreement/compromise without damaging our interpersonal relationships. I remain hopeful....
Yes, I wish this as well. My boyfriend was actually upset that he didn't know more about trans issues, and he's doing an independent study course next semester to learn more about the legal issues trans people face. It's very endearing actually how much he's into it. But some other gay people I know weren't so accepting. One guy told me that he was fine with it, was very happy for me, but then decided never to speak to me again. Another said it would be a deal-breaker were he to find out a potential partner was trans. He pushed me to be out when I didn't want to be. Needless to say, our friendship has pretty much ended.
Most of the media I've seen involving trans people has been positive. But maybe it's because I try to close my mind off to hate as much as I possibly can.
I don't like the portrayal of Max in The L Word, but A LOT of people can identify with him and benefited from his presentation in The L Word. I can't really say much against it when I know of people who found it to be a positive portrayal.
One negative thing that I really, really hated was an episode of the Jersey Shore. I watch this show a lot and I can't say I expected any more of the characters, but one of the men was hitting on a MTF in the club, and his buddies ridiculed him and he himself was disgusted. The girl was called "it" by all of the cast members and she was almost completely disregarded as a human. The way they talked about her was simply DISGUSTING and it made my stomach churn.
Adam Torres on Degrassi is a great character. He's super strong and he is so well written. They don't focus on him enough (in my totally unbiased opinion) but he is such a fantastic character. The young lady who plays him also gave a interview on transgendered transitions and difficulties. I thought it was all incredible. Almost brought a tear to my eye.
Boys Don't Cry was also a great movie. If you haven't seen it, whether you are FTM, MTF, cis, or ANYTHING in between, you simply must. It's a fantastic film and Hillary Swank... Just gives an incredible performance. This movie made me BAWL for almost an hour though... Make sure you have a box of tissues on hand. The only thing that I DO NOT like in conjunction with this movie is the Netflix description. It says something about Brandon Teena being a lesbian that just dressed as a boy, as if it was not his gender identity but a guise.
Also: a fantastic show for anyone concerned with transgendered issues was on the OWN network. No, not Chaz's show. It's Transgender Lives with Lisa Ling. They get all the pronouns right, it showcases both MTFs and FTMs in various stages of transition. It's really great and I definitely enjoyed it. (:
Quote from: Adio on July 25, 2011, 04:35:09 PM
That's what made me particularly upset. Changes on T do not happen that fast. I mean, growing facial hair but his voice never drops? Of course I realize that his actor is female, but even Adam on Degrassi (without hormones) seems to speak in a more male pattern. It's like the writers and Daniela Sea weren't even trying to be accurate.
I wasn't aware of this. That's interesting to me, as I too wanted to marry my ex-girlfriend. Now that I've realized I'm actually gay, I've been experiencing jealousy toward other trans (and non-trans) people who are able to get married. It's complicated...but it's almost as if I envy gay/lesbian trans people who are able to be legally married due to their birth certificates not getting amended/changed. I'm very glad that all of my documents are changed, but...I don't know. It's hard to explain that feeling, but yeah, I agree that he can do what he wants whether anyone else likes it or not.
That's a fear of mine and what holds me back from going to pride events (or even gay clubs). I'm afraid that I won't pass and be seen as a lesbian (with facial hair??). I'd like to move out West eventually, but...would I ever "pass"? I honestly don't know.
Yes, I wish this as well. My boyfriend was actually upset that he didn't know more about trans issues, and he's doing an independent study course next semester to learn more about the legal issues trans people face. It's very endearing actually how much he's into it. But some other gay people I know weren't so accepting. One guy told me that he was fine with it, was very happy for me, but then decided never to speak to me again. Another said it would be a deal-breaker were he to find out a potential partner was trans. He pushed me to be out when I didn't want to be. Needless to say, our friendship has pretty much ended.
well, also my concern last and the currently upcomming pride,
but many gay guys actually seamed to hit on me that night.
and later on the year I got to my friends favorite gay club and where so nervous I wouldn't pass, but my friends friends ex boyfriend just keep flirting with me, I and I where nervous he would find out.
just to saying not all gay people find it super obvious XD
Some really interesting stuff coming up in this topic o:
In regards to Max on the L word, it was horrendous I agree. And more frustrating to me, is the fact that the actor who played him, Daniela Sea, is very active in the community, in regards to genderqueer and transgender rights, and is pretty genderfluid herself (though she doesn't identify as any gender she still uses female pronouns, and has lived portions of her life as a man, and others as a woman). I don't know what kind of politics happened behind the scenes, and I know Daniela admitted to disappointment with the story arc regarding Max once the show was done, but to me that just says they had someone obviously somewhat more aware of this community right on set with them, so even though ignorance wasn't an excuse before, it's even moreso not an excuse with that information. Considering Daniela's activity, I would be hard pressed to think she didn't mention something about it. If she didn't then well that sucks of her, if she did and they ignored her then... wow. Wtf. Obviously I don't know what anything was like in that situation, but it still makes me wonder.
As for the whole stealth business, I've thought about that a lot myself. I can respect people's decisions to be stealth, but I remember on a thread posted on here somewhere, some of the epic amounts of hesitance I saw in people about posting anything online. I realize there are dangers doing this, to those who wish to be stealth especially, opening yourself up to such a widespread audience, but to me the internet is the swiftest way to reach tons of people. I have a pretty large following through my artwork, and the company I work for also has an even larger following in an intimate and separate community. Because of this I felt a responsibility to be open on the net about my transition. My boss (who's more like a coworker haha) and I use social networking as a means of advertisement, and feedback, and we both have been generous in sharing information about the nature of things, and I hope it reaches people who didn't understand. I know it reached him, and his peers, which is a great feeling.
It seems like... a pretty chicken thing to do not to use that opportunity the best way I can. Though even so the internet is full of anonymity, which often makes people crazy...
However there seems to be a good number of transgender people being fairly open on the web, because they can still retain anonymity and talk about these things. I see a lot of blogs and vlogs reaching people who didn't previously understand certain things, and that's pretty cool.
Understandably though, most people do NOT have jobs as open as mine, or peers as open as mine, and just can't even take the risk despite internet anonymity possibilities. And you know some people just don't feel it's anyone's business. So the fear and resistance to me is totally understandable, we are all different and we all have our preferences, which is even moreso why there is a sense of responsibility there for me being open, having an audience, and being that kind of person. But there is a lot at risk for some, and others just don't have the mindset for it.
Personally I'm hoping with this new generation, with proper use of anonymity on the web and just the ability to have an audience so easily at your fingertips, that people will start braving the internet more and using this tool to spread awareness.
I don't think Daniela Sea is truly supportive of the trans community. Her long time girlfriend/partner is Bitch who is very supportive of MichFest which has a trans misogynist policy of "women born women only." Bitch also claims to being really supportive of the trans community while supporting a very discriminatory event.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 25, 2011, 10:51:49 PM
I don't think Daniela Sea is truly supportive of the trans community. Her long time girlfriend/partner is Bitch who is very supportive of MichFest which has a trans misogynist policy of "women born women only." Bitch also claims to being really supportive of the trans community while supporting a very discriminatory event.
about this- at what point do "exclusive" groups become discriminatory? at the philly trans health conference which is an enormous and well-respected event, so many of the seminars are for "people of color" only. while i respect other peoples needs for a supportive and comfortable environment, why exclude others who are ready and willing to provide that? i want to speak out against this policy, because i would like to attend these seminars (there is information provided there that you can't get from an alternative source at the conference) without sounding racist. but, if people of ethnic origins have every right to participate in "historically white" things (i know that sounds horrible, but you know what i mean), then why can't i participate in their events?no one in their right mind would ever ever ever ever ever have seminars at that conference or others for "white/non-hispanic caucasian people" only. i support human rights to be where you want to be as long as you are respectful about it and especially disagree with the michfest policy.
Quote from: Nygeel on July 25, 2011, 10:51:49 PM
I don't think Daniela Sea is truly supportive of the trans community. Her long time girlfriend/partner is Bitch who is very supportive of MichFest which has a trans misogynist policy of "women born women only." Bitch also claims to being really supportive of the trans community while supporting a very discriminatory event.
Lame. It seems like it's always something :/ I wasn't even looking at her partner, Daniela's track record seemed so good.
Quote from: RyanThomas on July 25, 2011, 10:55:31 PM
about this- at what point do "exclusive" groups become discriminatory? at the philly trans health conference which is an enormous and well-respected event, so many of the seminars are for "people of color" only. while i respect other peoples needs for a supportive and comfortable environment, why exclude others who are ready and willing to provide that? i want to speak out against this policy, because i would like to attend these seminars (there is information provided there that you can't get from an alternative source at the conference) without sounding racist. but, if people of ethnic origins have every right to participate in "historically white" things (i know that sounds horrible, but you know what i mean), then why can't i participate in their events?no one in their right mind would ever ever ever ever ever have seminars at that conference or others for "white/non-hispanic caucasian people" only. i support human rights to be where you want to be as long as you are respectful about it and especially disagree with the michfest policy.
MichFest is specifically a "women's festival" but isn't for all women. I understand that with spaces for women, queer people, trans people, or people of color it's spaces for a specific marginalized group. In the US (generally) the ideal is considered being white, upper class, heteronormative and cis.
So, a space for queer people that doesn't allow bisexuals. A space for trans people that only allows "trans people that pass"...you get the idea. Also, by that I mean a space that is declared a queer space, or trans space.
yeah nygeel i know what you were referring to and it's really a shame that already marginalized groups have to discriminate against their own, but just in general why is that even ok?
I don't have much else to comment because my feelings/thoughts are a bit too complicated to express at the moment. Especially with the whole WBW stuff.
But this...
Quote from: Nygeel on July 25, 2011, 10:51:49 PM
I don't think Daniela Sea is truly supportive of the trans community. Her long time girlfriend/partner is Bitch who is very supportive of MichFest which has a trans misogynist policy of "women born women only." Bitch also claims to being really supportive of the trans community while supporting a very discriminatory event.
I actually had to google that because at first I couldn't tell if you were just refusing to say the person's name or if their name was actually "Bitch." Who does that? Made me laugh anyway.
Quote from: Adio on July 25, 2011, 11:19:19 PM
But this...
I actually had to google that because at first I couldn't tell if you were just refusing to say the person's name or if their name was actually "Bitch." Who does that? Made me laugh anyway.
I did too. is that even legal?
Maybe we should start brainstorming ideas on what *could* be done, even in a dream situation, to make things better in these regards, and then find out from those ideas what could actually possibly be done? Might find out that far fetched ideas aren't that far fetched at all. My mind is pretty clogged atm so many brains are better than one, especially mine :P
"MichFest is specifically a "women's festival" but isn't for all women. I understand that with spaces for women, queer people, trans people, or people of color it's spaces for a specific marginalized group. In the US (generally) the ideal is considered being white, upper class, heteronormative and cis."
they rejected all the best women :'(
Quote from: DevinJW on July 26, 2011, 06:29:22 AM
Maybe we should start brainstorming ideas on what *could* be done, even in a dream situation, to make things better in these regards, and then find out from those ideas what could actually possibly be done? Might find out that far fetched ideas aren't that far fetched at all. My mind is pretty clogged atm so many brains are better than one, especially mine :P
About MichFest? There's a counter-festival called Trans Fest in a nearby area at the same time.
Bitch's name isn't legally Bitch, it's her stage name. Oh, and MichFest is held on private property which from what I've been told is owned by gay men, but I could be wrong on that.
Either way, MichFest's policies have been screwy in ways other than just the anti-trans women policy. But uh...getting off topic lol
Quote from: Adio on July 25, 2011, 11:19:19 PM
I actually had to google that because at first I couldn't tell if you were just refusing to say the person's name or if their name was actually "Bitch." Who does that? Made me laugh anyway.
Musicians! What can I say?
Is MichFest some kind-of feminist related fest?
YOU DON'T BECOME A MAN JACKASS
This guy annoys me and his concept of being trans* is offensive.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2630%2F5734594638_4ab55beac9.jpg&hash=45d2be1590db5005187e7e05a0df3ab9dde8e31f)
Quote from: Nick19Nick on July 26, 2011, 03:42:35 PM
YOU DON'T BECOME A MAN JACKASS
This guy annoys me and his concept of being trans* is offensive.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2630%2F5734594638_4ab55beac9.jpg&hash=45d2be1590db5005187e7e05a0df3ab9dde8e31f)
that's like a show on a trans person i saw two nights ago who said THEMSELF that you can choose your gender. word for word "I believe gender is something you can choose."
Quote from: Nick19Nick on July 26, 2011, 03:42:35 PM
YOU DON'T BECOME A MAN JACKASS
This guy annoys me and his concept of being trans* is offensive.
(https://www.susans.org/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2630%2F5734594638_4ab55beac9.jpg&hash=45d2be1590db5005187e7e05a0df3ab9dde8e31f)
With all due respect, I feel you are being judgmental here. It would be nice if we all respected everyone's way of expressing their own transition. Yes, other trans guys have used this expression "becoming a man" to describe their own transition. Some still use it. You may not like Bono or his views, but that does not make him a (whatever insult you choose to throw at him).
Actually, I've noticed a lot of trans folks ganging up on Bono. He's a convenient target, being well-known and one of the only trans guys out in the media. I don't like some of his views, either, believe me, but he can choose how he sees himself as much as I and you do. A little class and respect - towards ALL of our brothers - go a long way.
Quote from: brandnewman on July 26, 2011, 04:03:32 PM
With all due respect, I feel you are being judgmental here. It would be nice if we all respected everyone's way of expressing their own transition. Yes, other trans guys have used this expression "becoming a man" to describe their own transition. Some still use it. You may not like Bono or his views, but that does not make him a (whatever insult you choose to throw at him).
Actually, I've noticed a lot of trans folks ganging up on Bono. He's a convenient target, being well-known and one of the only trans guys out in the media. I don't like some of his views, either, believe me, but he can choose how he sees himself as much as I and you do. A little class and respect - towards ALL of our brothers - go a long way.
This.
Sometimes attitudes like these make it more difficult for the rest of us to transition because we might get scrutinized by the community. I know I've felt that way.
I agree with brandnewman (apologies, not sure how else to refer to you) and Darrin. We all have different ways to describe ourselves, how we feel, what it's like to be trans, our transition, etc etc etc -- I see no reason to pick each other's words apart that way. Chaz Bono's transition and experiences are his own and no one else's, and people of all walks of life will take from it what they will.
"Become a man" (and it's variations) is a transitional phrase that is not owned by the the trans community alone. Cis males use the phrase as well. It's not a phrase that inherently implies that the individual was not male beforehand (that is obviously not the case for cis males), it's simply interpreted that way by different people when it is applied to a trans individual. It refers to a turning point in one's life where they feel they have come into their own.
Personally, I've used the phrase myself in my own head -- perhaps even verbally -- due to dealing with a number of things in my life which forced me to really grow up. I've always identified as male, and in fact had referred to myself as a man before that, but "being" a man and "becoming" one aren't necessarily the same thing to me: before becoming a man I feel I'm one only by technicality (I'm of legal age to be considered a man), but once I finish becoming a man (which I'm not yet finished with, regardless of where I'm at transition-wise) then being a man will be more than that and will say more about me. That I can handle things, that I have things under as much control as any man could, and that I have finally accomplished something and made it somewhere in the world.
No longer a boy: I'm now a man.
That kind of idea.
As for the rest of what has been said about Chaz Bono, like I said, his transition and his journey are his own and no one else's. I haven't watched his documentary yet, and I haven't read his book, but from what I saw when I watched the Oprah episode I was under the impression that his sudden anger once he was on T was not T-induced, though there were some things said to imply it was being blamed. I took it as him finally dealing with so much that he had not truly dealt with before, a culmination of everything if you will, and having a bit of a temper myself I can imagine that combined with stress he was likely feeling may have been expressed through anger. It's a lot to deal with, and people react to such things in different ways.
On a better note, a very popular YouTuber (he's like #3 most subscribed in Canada) just came out as FTM and the response from his mostly young, female audience has been f***ing amazing. Read the comments on this video.
personal post (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DxPSH9yzg#)
Not exactly "the media" but he has 300,000+ subscribers.
As far with all the problems with Max in the L Word go, sure there were a lot, but I really liked the way some of the characters were shown to be jackasses. Alice in particular gave him comments like 'not being true to yourself' and 'not a member of the community', and in once episode admitted she'd been a douche, and apologised. Another time, Kit told Max that he was giving up 'his beautiful gift of femininity' or whatever, because she simply didn't understand. However, while I think the discrimination was done to show that there's discrimination in the LGBT community too, the writers didn't show just why or how they were wrong.
Quote from: Noah G. on July 26, 2011, 05:36:57 PM
I agree with brandnewman (apologies, not sure how else to refer to you) and Darrin. We all have different ways to describe ourselves, how we feel, what it's like to be trans, our transition, etc etc etc -- I see no reason to pick each other's words apart that way. Chaz Bono's transition and experiences are his own and no one else's, and people of all walks of life will take from it what they will.
"Become a man" (and it's variations) is a transitional phrase that is not owned by the the trans community alone. Cis males use the phrase as well. It's not a phrase that inherently implies that the individual was not male beforehand (that is obviously not the case for cis males), it's simply interpreted that way by different people when it is applied to a trans individual. It refers to a turning point in one's life where they feel they have come into their own.
Personally, I've used the phrase myself in my own head -- perhaps even verbally -- due to dealing with a number of things in my life which forced me to really grow up. I've always identified as male, and in fact had referred to myself as a man before that, but "being" a man and "becoming" one aren't necessarily the same thing to me: before becoming a man I feel I'm one only by technicality (I'm of legal age to be considered a man), but once I finish becoming a man (which I'm not yet finished with, regardless of where I'm at transition-wise) then being a man will be more than that and will say more about me. That I can handle things, that I have things under as much control as any man could, and that I have finally accomplished something and made it somewhere in the world.
No longer a boy: I'm now a man.
That kind of idea.
As for the rest of what has been said about Chaz Bono, like I said, his transition and his journey are his own and no one else's. I haven't watched his documentary yet, and I haven't read his book, but from what I saw when I watched the Oprah episode I was under the impression that his sudden anger once he was on T was not T-induced, though there were some things said to imply it was being blamed. I took it as him finally dealing with so much that he had not truly dealt with before, a culmination of everything if you will, and having a bit of a temper myself I can imagine that combined with stress he was likely feeling may have been expressed through anger. It's a lot to deal with, and people react to such things in different ways.
that how I feel, not a man, just a boy, growing up to be a man like any other guys.
-
about T, its kinda annoying, I also had a bad experience where someone I got into a fight with a girl who humiliated me to a party, and I am normally im very claim, but that day it where just too much and I slapped her in the face twice and didnt mention it to my parrents because I knew they would talk about "T makes your agressive crap"
I do admit I feel more "tense" and probebly more easy to annoy, but for me to see, T have only alittle effect on your agressive lever and stress,depression,normal anger, got more to say, I were way more agressive p-T in a periode where no one understood me than I where with T,
Quote from: dmx on July 26, 2011, 08:36:41 PM
On a better note, a very popular YouTuber (he's like #3 most subscribed in Canada) just came out as FTM and the response from his mostly young, female audience has been f***ing amazing. Read the comments on this video.
personal post (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DxPSH9yzg#)
Not exactly "the media" but he has 300,000+ subscribers.
That is awesome. And damn good for him, youtube is a scary place sometimes.
And that's what I was talking about before. No, it's not the media, but look how many people he's reaching with that anyway, media be damned. More people have access to publishing to the web than have access to publishing through the media, and if there were more like him, with that many followers, think of the number of people that could be reached. 8D In some ways I feel like it's easier to sympathize with people like that too, whereas celebrities seem more unreachable, untouchable, unreal even.
QuoteOn a better note, a very popular YouTuber (he's like #3 most subscribed in Canada) just came out as FTM and the response from his mostly young, female audience has been f***ing amazing. Read the comments on this video.
personal post
Not exactly "the media" but he has 300,000+ subscribers.
Wow, this guy's awesome, and what he's doing for us/the community is amazing! -goes to watch all of his videos-
I know that the L word is not popular with Trans people, but its my favourite ever to do Transgender storyline specifically an FTM story, for ME!. A lot of it has to do with Daniella Sea, she is just so carefree, open minded and just suitable for the role. I just sort of related to the Max storyline in a way that I can never with shows like Degrassi, Hollyoaks, Boys dont cry did great, but felt it slow at the start. They were lots of unfairness towards Max, but I think that most of it was realistic, especially how his lesbian friends treated him and saw many other things, dating, getting a job etc as negative as people say it is to me its close to RL, there wasnt any sugar coating or anything. It wasnt at all negative as far as Im concerned, Max made progress despite difficult circumstances. He went from being a loner to having great friends, had a cool job, fell in love, was at peace with himself, the show could have done without that pregnant storyline, guess they wanted to capitalise on what had been in the tabloids. As the first tv show to do an FTM, I applaud it for paving the way for other how, they may not have gotten everything right but its a learning process.
Only watched a few Hollyoaks episodes before I tuned out, the story seemed to drag on and I didnt see anything that made me believe they knew what they were doing and had researched on Trans, of course saw documentaries on which they did interview and consulted a trans teen, but felt they needed to have done more. Anyone know how that storyline ended, would love to hear it, maybe I would give it a second chance, dont think Jason/Jasmine is still on the show now.
Degrassi, really like the Adam story, Im no longer a teen so I cannot really relate to what he is going through. But I like that they show the family life, friendships and relationships and also Trans issues also. Some storylines do bother me though, like the Dave/Adam bathroom thing, Fiona/Adam. My body is a cage was an awesome two parter. Not to impose anything on the actress who plays Adam, but I just unrealistic that they let him/Adam go around without covering his chest, it defeats the whole purpose of dysphoria, most guys are dysphoric about their chest and wouldnt walk around with an open hoodie, when they can cover up, even if most people know they are trans. Its like as soon as Adam was outed he know longer felt the need to cover up or wasn't dysphoric anymore, just doesnt sound realistic. The make up people its not like they cannot do better to mask the chest, like they would if an actress was pregnant. I dont know maybe he is just one of those less dysphoric and confident guys, which is cool. I do like the show.
As for the rest of what has been said about Chaz Bono, like I said, his transition and his journey are his own and no one else's.
I'm not sure that's true. If he's setting himself up as some sort of 'spokesperson' for the community what he's saying to the world at large is exactly that his experience is standard and normal.
Quote from: tekla on July 28, 2011, 01:18:06 PM
I'm not sure that's true. If he's setting himself up as some sort of 'spokesperson' for the community what he's saying to the world at large is exactly that his experience is standard and normal.
I did not quite mean that in a spokesperson sort of way, more in the sense that what he experienced is what he experienced whether others have experienced it or agree or not, but that said I do see your point. At the same time, people in this very thread have said that they or others they know have experienced similar changes, and transition is an entirely personal thing as has been stated many times before. So in a way, even if he had experienced a text book transition, so to speak, there would be people finding flaws and stating that now people are going to think that "this" is what happens on hormones, or "that" is how someone who is "really" trans thinks, and so on.
I'm not even sure that we can say there is a "standard and normal" experience, so any "spokesperson" is going to present an arguably inaccurate view to people. Especially as they can only offer it in their own words, and a lot of things that anyone goes through can be difficult to articulate, let alone someone who is trans.
While he may not be offering the most pleasant experience to a lot of people's minds, he is offering his experience. I think it's counterproductive to talk down on him in the very same thread where there is a discussion about needing more people to share their experiences so that others can better understand this situation. He's willing to share his experience, and what he experienced was real and probably not that far away from whatever people want to call "normal" for this. That's something, at least. I think it's asking a bit much for every "spokesperson," for every public face, to only have what the community at large feels is "standard and normal," or at least "acceptable." Every one of them is going to offer something that will put an idea in the heads of non-trans individuals which will affect a portion of the trans population.
I suppose if we want to argue anything based off of Chaz Bono being publicly open about his experience it is that we do need more people willing to be publicly open or to educate so that the world at large can develop a clearer idea of what is going on -- not argue about what he has actually said or how he has worded what he has gone through. That's not productive, and could quite possibly be counterproductive if it makes someone second-guess or reconsider being open about this themselves.
Perhaps no normal, but there is 'closer to the norm' and 'so far away from it you need a telescope to see it' and I think he's in the second category. The best spokesperson tend to be reluctant and not self-titled. And it's not the first time, before this Chaz was trying to be a 'spokesperson' for the lesbian community. Before that a rock star. I just think there is a desperate need for attention, no matter who, or what it hurts in the process.
Quote from: tekla on July 28, 2011, 01:18:06 PM
As for the rest of what has been said about Chaz Bono, like I said, his transition and his journey are his own and no one else's.
I'm not sure that's true. If he's setting himself up as some sort of 'spokesperson' for the community what he's saying to the world at large is exactly that his experience is standard and normal.
I haven't seen the doc or read the book, but I saw him on Letterman. He seemed to go out of his way to say that this was his experience and that he couldn't speak for others.
As soon as we have a bunch of other multi-million dollar trustafarians in transition then maybe...
Quote from: tekla on July 28, 2011, 10:41:54 PM
Perhaps no normal, but there is 'closer to the norm' and 'so far away from it you need a telescope to see it' and I think he's in the second category. The best spokesperson tend to be reluctant and not self-titled. And it's not the first time, before this Chaz was trying to be a 'spokesperson' for the lesbian community. Before that a rock star. I just think there is a desperate need for attention, no matter who, or what it hurts in the process.
Fair enough.
I can only speak to what I saw, or what I have seen so far as the case may be. I know very little about Chaz Bono's pre-transition history (I know who his parents are, of course, and I know that he identified or presented as a lesbian before, but that's largely the extent of it), and I have admitted before that I never got around to watching the documentary nor did I read the book, so as to this particular subject I can admit that I don't have all of the information and perhaps cannot truly argue as to his suitability to being a spokesperson. I won't be bullheaded and push the matter, but I did not get the impression that he was presenting his experience as anything but that: his experience. Not in what I saw, at the least.
That said, I do still stand by not completely tearing down everything he has said and his experience. I still think there are better uses of time and energy -- hell, with him being a public figure he can be used as a way to get a foot in the door to further educate people who are open to being educated. Twist it to an advantage somehow because either way what he's saying is out there.
Quote from: Nick19Nick on July 19, 2011, 01:18:52 AM
A huge irritation for me was watching Chaz Bono's documentation on OWN. Worst trans* show ever, horrible depiction of what testosterone does to you. I wish my mom had not seen that because it gave her a horrible insight on what I "want".
>:( stupid chaz
I understand he wants a celebrity face for the FtM community it's just... I don't think it should be his.
Yep, my opinion as well. There were some decent points in it, but overall it wasn't all that good for creating a more positive transguy presence in the mainstream.
Quote from: tekla on July 28, 2011, 11:18:05 PM
As soon as we have a bunch of other multi-million dollar trustafarians in transition then maybe...
In the documentary, they said that Chaz had to borrow the money for his top surgery from his AA sponsors. Somehow, I don't think he's rich, just famous by virtue of being his parents' son.
Quote from: Luc on July 30, 2011, 01:02:17 AM
In the documentary, they said that Chaz had to borrow the money for his top surgery from his AA sponsors. Somehow, I don't think he's rich, just famous by virtue of being his parents' son.
he may have the money coming from cher, but it sounded like she doesn't fully accept him so maybe she withheld it from being used for his surgery.
Quote from: RyanThomas on July 30, 2011, 12:14:12 PM
he may have the money coming from cher, but it sounded like she doesn't fully accept him so maybe she withheld it from being used for his surgery.
I read an article about him a while ago that seemed to quote Cher as 'blaming herself' and being distraught. But then, Russian gossip magazines aren't the most cite-worthy, so maybe.
I dislike the number if trans characters played by trans people. If I remember correctly a trans woman auditioned for trans america and didn't get the part because she was deemed too masculine.